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Monday, October 26, 2020

NBA Post-Bubble offseason thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA but we should have enough posters to fill out a mock draft regardless.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:08 PM | 1987 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mock draft, nba, off-topic

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   1. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:13 PM (#5985576)
Draft order. I'll update with assignments in this post when people claim teams.

1. Minnesota - aberg
2. Golden State - DCA
3. Charlotte - Votto
4. Chicago - Moses
5. Cleveland
6. Atlanta - Der-K
7. Detroit
8. New York - NJ in NJ
9. Washington
10. Phoenix - All Oriole Tragic heard was ruff ruff
11. San Antonio
12. Sacramento - smileyy
13. New Orleans - JJ1986
14. Boston (from Memphis) - If on a winter's night a traveling violation
15. Orlando - Athletic Supporter
16. Portland
17. Minnesota (from Brooklyn via Atlanta) - aberg
18. Dallas - Dandy Little Glove Man
19. Brooklyn (from Philadelphia via LA Clippers)
20. Miami
21. Philadelphia (from Oklahoma City via Orlando and Philadelphia)
22. Denver (from Houston)
23. Utah
24. Milwaukee (from Indiana)
25. Oklahoma City (from Denver) - Thok
26. Boston - If on a winter's night a traveling violation
27. New York (from LA Clippers) - NJ in NJ
28. Los Angeles Lakers
29. Toronto - BaseballObscura
30. Boston (from Milwaukee via Phoenix) - If on a winter's night a traveling violation

31. Dallas (from Golden State) - Dandy Little Glove Man
32. Charlotte (from Cleveland via LA Clippers and Orlando) - Votto
33. Minnesota - aberg
34. Philadelphia (from Atlanta)
35. Sacramento (from Detroit via Phoenix) - smileyy
36. Philadelphia (from New York)
37. Washington (from Chicago)
38. New York (from Charlotte) - NJ in NJ
39. New Orleans (from Washington via Milwaukee) - JJ1986
40. Memphis (from Phoenix) - Willard Baseball
41. San Antonio
42. New Orleans - JJ1986
43. Sacramento - smileyy
44. Chicago (from Memphis) - Moses
45. Orlando - Athletic Supporter
46. Portland
47. Boston (from Brooklyn via Charlotte, Orlando and Philadelphia) - If on a winter's night a traveling violation
48. Golden State (from Dallas via Philadelphia) - DCA
49. Philadelphia
50. Atlanta (from Miami via Sacramento, Cleveland and Boston) - Der-K
51. Golden State (from Utah via Dallas, Detroit and Cleveland) - DCA
52. Sacramento (from Houston) - smileyy
53. Oklahoma City - Thok
54. Indiana
55. Brooklyn (from Denver)
56. Charlotte (from Boston)
57. LA Clippers
58. Philadelphia (from Los Angeles Lakers via Orlando)
59. Toronto - BaseballObscura
60. New Orleans (from Milwaukee)
   2. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:29 PM (#5985582)
I'll take the Pistons, please.
   3. Thok Posted: October 26, 2020 at 08:09 PM (#5985589)
I'm in for whatever. I've done Phoenix and OKC in the past.
   4. aberg Posted: October 26, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5985602)
I'll take the Wolves unless one of the other MN fans here really wants them.
   5. Willard Baseball Posted: October 27, 2020 at 08:00 AM (#5985616)
I will take Memphis again.
   6. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: October 27, 2020 at 08:08 AM (#5985617)
I can draft for the Bucks.
If anyone wants to mock-trade for mock-Eric Bledsoe, he's available.
   7. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 08:53 AM (#5985622)
How strange is it that there are multiple Wolves fans here?
   8. JJ1986 Posted: October 27, 2020 at 09:11 AM (#5985627)
I'll take the Pelicans if we don't have a fan who wants them.
   9. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 09:20 AM (#5985628)
If no one wants Atlanta, I'll take 'em.

(Also, if I'm ATL, I'd listen on Bledsoe, though that'd be less than ideal for you for them to be the right match.)
   10. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 27, 2020 at 09:39 AM (#5985631)
Zach Lowe thinks Atlanta is YEARNING to WIN NOW and doesn't rule out them trading that pick for immediate help. I just find it amusing. They were 20-47 last year!

Being a Pistons fan is miserable but at least we don't have to stomach being part of the Passed on Luka Club.
   11. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 09:52 AM (#5985636)
I just heard that, Crosseyed! (listening now)
Yeah, it's super frustrating. Did I mention that Luka was the first time, maybe in my lifetime, that my team landed the guy I wanted going into the draft? That one of my work passwords was a variant of his name a year before that? No, I have mentioned these things, like a hundred times? I wonder why...
Sigh.
   12. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:06 AM (#5985640)
Zach Lowe thinks Atlanta is YEARNING to WIN NOW and doesn't rule out them trading that pick for immediate help. I just find it amusing. They were 20-47 last year!

This just seems to be the new reality for teams with star level talent already on board.
   13. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:14 AM (#5985643)
Being a Pistons fan is miserable but at least we don't have to stomach being part of the Passed on Luka Club.

Not to pile on, but was this the worst draft miss of the 21st Century? In NBA history?
   14. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:15 AM (#5985644)
Not to pile on, but was this the worst draft miss of the 21st Century? In NBA history?

MJ did go 3rd.

EDIT: You know I guess to be fair, you could take a more nuanced approach to this question and say there are at least two categories: draft misses based on what was known at the time, and draft misses based on how their careers panned out.
   15. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:18 AM (#5985646)
I'm in for whatever. I've done Phoenix and OKC in the past.

Which do you prefer? Or do you just want to wait unless someone claims one of the other? We might have a Suns fan or 2 that posts, but not sure about OKC.
   16. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:23 AM (#5985648)
I mean, you can argue that MJ shouldn't have been picked above Akeem, right? Nobody thinks that either Bagley or Ayton deserved to be picked over Luka at the time.
   17. Rally Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:24 AM (#5985649)
Passing on the greatest ever is tough, but Houston can't regret the Olajuwon pick all that much. Portland and Bowie is a different story. The best 2 drafts ever are almost certainly the 1984 and 2003 ones, and in each case the #2 pick was a disaster.

Portland picked Bowie while not only Jordan was available, but Barkley and Stockton. 19 years later Darko went #2 with Wade, Bosh, and Anthony waiting on deck.
   18. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:25 AM (#5985650)
I mean, you can argue that MJ shouldn't have been picked above Akeem, right?
Agreed.
Nobody thinks that either Bagley or Ayton deserved to be picked over Luka at the time.
Bagley, agreed. Some had Ayton over Luka.
   19. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:25 AM (#5985651)
19 years later Darko went #2 with Wade, Bosh, and Anthony waiting on deck.

How soon I forgot.
   20. Rally Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM (#5985652)
What's the reason to consider Ball the #1 pick? Looks like a slightly taller version of his brother to me. Great passer, good rebounder, and can't shoot. In Australia he shot .458 on 2's, and .250 on 3's.

Is there any reason to think he'll turn out to be more than what his brother is?
   21. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:50 AM (#5985654)
Yeah I might miss on some talents, but I'd be terrified to take anyone who projects as a lead ball handler who can't shoot at all.
   22. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 10:50 AM (#5985655)
The biggest reason to look at him @ 1 is the lack of competition in this year's draft. Beyond that, I do think he has better tools than Lonzo (key here might be ballhandling - Ball seems to be transitioning into a non-PG role in the halfcourt, which limits him) and was productive in Australia, despite the shooting woes. If you're a stat guy, Pelton had him #1 in his model by a fairly large margin (diff between 1 and 2 exceeded that between 2 and 9).
   23. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 11:17 AM (#5985661)
I would be deeply skeptical of statistical projections from the NBL, to be honest.
   24. Willard Baseball Posted: October 27, 2020 at 11:17 AM (#5985662)
LaMelo is a much better shot maker than Lonzo, and has been forever. He is better on floaters and around the rim, and isn't as athletic as Lonzo. He is also a better FT shooter.

The question is whether he can shoot 37% on 3s, like Lonzo. I don't think he will be the defender Lonzo is, especially initially, due to lesser athleticism. But he is more skilled than Lonzo.

LaMelo will also be craftier in the halfcourt game than Lonzo.

LaMelo also just turned 19.
   25. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 11:32 AM (#5985664)
Happy to fill in if there are teams that need someone.

***

The difference between LaMelo and Lonzo is basically that Lonzo didn't even try anything but layups and 3s in college. He was incredibly selective, which is a rare quality in a college star.

The problem came at the next level, where he wasn't able to get those shots, and so his usage kind of collapsed.

LaMelo doesn't have the problem of being too selective, so the thinking is that the defense has to respect more shots, and he can have the ball a bit more to make plays.

If Lonzo were like two inches taller and not injured so much, he'd just be a better passing Draymond.
   26. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 27, 2020 at 11:36 AM (#5985666)
I'll draft for Charlotte, my erstwhile favorite team.

Just for fun, here are previous BTF Mock Drafts.
   27. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 11:43 AM (#5985668)
LaMelo is a much better shot maker than Lonzo, and has been forever.
I don't necessarily agree with this; it depends on what you mean. Lonzo has been a guy who puts up percentages which are better than his process, because he avoids sins of commission. LaMelo can do a lot of things as a shooter than Lonzo can't - like floaters and around the rim* (and of course from the line) but it's an ugly shot profile (loves stepbacks!) and includes some ugly misses.

* Lonzo was pretty good around the rim in college! A lot of that I think was transition scoring - I'll defer to people who better remember here.

I don't think he will be the defender Lonzo is, especially initially, due to lesser athleticism.
I don't think athleticism is the issue here - LaMelo, to my eye, has better agility / might be better laterally. (Lonzo might be faster north-south.)

LaMelo is more skilled and craftier at the same age, but Lonzo was way "smarter" (imo).

--
The question of whether it's good to try to do a lot and fail or be an efficient worker be who might appear to have a lower ceiling is a tricky one, I think. As a rule, we assume the former is better for prospects - and rightly so - even as many of the later in the draft success stories are guys who "just know how to play" / efficient lower volume guys (thinking of FVV in particular).
   28. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5985671)
If you're a stat guy, Pelton had him #1 in his model by a fairly large margin (diff between 1 and 2 exceeded that between 2 and 9).


This mildly surprises me. Do we really think that we understand the Australian basketball league well enough to do a translation?

If his stats were college stats, I'd view him as a good prospect, but not amazing. Better than Anthony Edwards, for example.
   29. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM (#5985672)
19 years later Darko went #2 with Wade, Bosh, and Anthony waiting on deck.


I'm the rare Pistons fan that just never got hung up on this. They won the title in 2004 and maybe that doesn't happen if Anthony is playing instead of Tayshaun Prince, as weird as it sounds. Or maybe they'd have taken Bosh instead since the Pistons wanted a big at that time, but maybe then they don't trade for Rasheed Wallace, and Bosh prime years don't match with Billups/Ben prime years and they don't win a title. Obviously they could've won multiple titles under a different scenario, but it's hard to get mad at how that decade went over all. That's a big difference between the Darko pick and the Passed on Luka Club. Pistons had a good decade despite that pick.

This just seems to be the new reality for teams with star level talent already on board.


Atlanta's in a tough spot I guess. Keep losing and Trae gets antsy. Make win-now moves for a one-way player like Trae when you're that far away from 50 wins, let alone upper-tier contender, and you're probably just locking in a low ceiling at best with some significant downside risk.
   30. Willard Baseball Posted: October 27, 2020 at 12:19 PM (#5985673)
I have watched a ton of Lonzo/LaMelo going back to Chino Hills and AAU stuff on YouTube, watched every Lithuania game, etc.

Lonzo didn't take those shots because he couldn't take those shots. Which is awesome and shows how smart he was/is. However, an ideal player can do everything, just doesn't.

LaMelo laterally is not good defensively...I really worry about him as a point of attack defender because of this. I do agree he has more "agility", but part of that is he is smoother with the ball.

Lonzo is good around the rim when he can dunk or he is by himself. His contested finishes weren't good at any level of basketball, including HS games where he was by far the best athlete on the court.

I firmly believe LaMelo is going to be a better player than Lonzo, but probably not until LaMelo is 22 or 23, which is the end of his rookie contract. What exactly do you do with that if you are a contender in the next few years? And how many teams don't think they are contenders in the next few years?

LaMelo can be an 18/10 guy, and create offense against NBA playoff defenses in big moments. Lonzo is more like a 13/8 guy who could be a high-level defender if he ever gets an actual coach.
   31. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 27, 2020 at 12:29 PM (#5985675)
I'll take Dallas in the draft.
   32. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 12:35 PM (#5985676)
I have definitely watched less of the Balls than you have, Willard.

However, an ideal player can do everything, just doesn't.
Totally agree. I'm skeptical that LaMelo will get to "just doesn't", but it may be worth a shot in this pool.

Presuming Lonzo stays in NWO, SVG has a pretty good defensive track record, I think.

---

Do we really think that we understand the Australian basketball league well enough to do a translation?
Ask Pelton! I'd think so, naively. I'm more struck by the inclusion of things like the EYBL (which killed Wiseman's (pretty bad) translations in his system).
   33. DCA Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:13 PM (#5985681)
I'd like to take GSW. They are my hometown team and my knowledge of non-NBA basketball is too shallow to pick competently outside of the lottery, which makes a perfect fit.
   34. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5985685)
There are probably others better versed in the draft than me, but I will take a team if there is one left over and you really need GMs.
   35. DCA Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5985686)
That's a big difference between the Darko pick and the Passed on Luka Club.

To me the big difference is this:

Darko was a bust. With Wade/Bosh/Anthony all available it's clear the Pistons thought that Darko was on that level, and he wasn't. Mistakes like that happen sometimes. Even with a high pick.

Passed on Luka is an entirely difference type of mistake - not seeing elite talent when it's right in front of you. Those guys might not even be busts. But Luka was so obviously so so good, and the other guys were just regular lottery picks.

It would be like Cleveland and Detroit taking Darko/Anthony 1-2, and then Denver trading down to #5 with Miami moving up to take LeBron #3.
   36. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:41 PM (#5985692)
There's a lot of revisionist history here.

I got a lot of pushback at the time for suggesting that teams were insane for passing Luka at #1 overall.

Edit: I summon stiggles to find the thread.
   37. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:51 PM (#5985695)
   38. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 01:57 PM (#5985696)
I feel very good about my performance in that draft chatter. Got off a solid Lady Bird/Sacramento joke. My draft grade would have been at least a B+.
   39. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:00 PM (#5985697)
But truly the highlight of that draft night, much like most other drafts, is zop just being wildly full of ####, but aggressively so. Truly the gift that keeps on giving (like three times per year).
   40. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:02 PM (#5985699)
The absolute best poster in the business:
Note how wrong this is - a good example of the limitations of stat-driven draft analysis. Allen's tested athletic numbers are superlative - was near the top of many categories at the combine. It's an example of when you have the proxy data (rebounding) and the real data (actual vertical, etc) and the proxy isn't telling you what it should. My guess is that if Allen were black he'd be seen as a viable 3 and D prospect; I'm interested to see how he develops outside of Duke's system given the success in a good league at a young age and that the tools are all there.

He's still a slight overdraft, IMO, but an intriguing prospect.
   41. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:24 PM (#5985702)
From that thread (pretty sure it's me quoting a tweet, without the header from my phone):

C Wendell Carter
PF Lauri Markkanen
SF X
SG Zach LaVine
PG Kris Dunn

That's going to be a solid playoff team down the road, but I don't think its ceiling is that high. The Bulls need to lose, lose, lose again next year and try to get a better pick than No. 7.


The Bulls had the #7 pick the next year.
   42. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5985703)
Woof. That's how you get your good poster title pulled, Moses.
   43. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5985705)
I stand by this comment, and it remains my draft philosophy:
The best part about watching no college basketball is you can immediately be in the tank for the guy your team drafts. I CAN'T BELIEVE WE GOT ROBERT WILLIAMS!!!!!
   44. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5985707)
Mine as well, and it has the added bonus of shifting the BBTF draft from an exercise in futilely trying to predict the future of a bunch of raw NBA talents into a draft education process where the rest of the thread does my homework for me and argues about the prospects from variously informed points of view. Thanks, everyone!
   45. asinwreck Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5985710)
I'll take Denver if no one else wants to be Tim Connelly.
   46. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 27, 2020 at 02:51 PM (#5985711)
Mine as well, and it has the added bonus of shifting the BBTF draft from an exercise in futilely trying to predict the future of a bunch of raw NBA talents into a draft education process where the rest of the thread does my homework for me and argues about the prospects from variously informed points of view. Thanks, everyone!

Same.
   47. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 03:16 PM (#5985716)
I feel good about this take I had from the draft thread:

There's what, like a 10% chance Trae Young is Steph Curry? Even if there's a 50% chance that Ayton is Valanciunas, it's just so much more valuable to have Steph Curry than Jonas.

I feel like in real life, Trae Young is going to drop too far, as well. He might be the highest variance player in the draft.


Trae didn't actually drop that far though.
   48. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 27, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5985717)
Woof. That's how you get your good poster title pulled, Moses.

To be clear, that's not my comment (though I agreed - and still do agree - with the sentiment that at best that core had an upside of a 7/8 seed), I just thought it was funny that they tried to lose more (they fired Hoiberg/promoted Boylen and were worse) but still ended up with the 7 pick. While I kinda like White, he still hasn't changed this core's ceiling from a 7/8 seed.
   49. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 03:29 PM (#5985718)
Oh man, I am excited to read that the comment posted in #40 was in response to me shitting on Grayson Allen.

I'm excited because:
1. #### Grayson Allen
2. 'Zop being 'Zop
3. I ended up being right
   50. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 03:34 PM (#5985719)
I'm sure I've made many, many dumb predictions in this thread and welcome the gentle mockery. But that comment combines snidely dismissing actual, recorded statistical evidence of an old player's abilities in favor of his "actual vertical" as measured at the combine, which is hilarious.

That the same guy then repeatedly accused people of being impressed by Doncic only because he was white, well, I mean that's just art.
   51. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 03:36 PM (#5985721)
Here's a ####### phenomenal take from Spivey in response to a post about how Giannis has to add a 3p shot to improve:

I think Giannis could become an all-NBA defender. I think it is quite unlikely to expect him to improve much at shooting, at least in the short to medium term. I think they just need to build a team with more spacing. Replacing Bledsoe for Kemba helps that a lot, but I see zero reason why Charlotte would do that. I don't think they do that even with a first.
   52. Rally Posted: October 27, 2020 at 04:31 PM (#5985732)
But that comment combines snidely dismissing actual, recorded statistical evidence of an old player's abilities in favor of his "actual vertical" as measured at the combine, which is hilarious.


Who's the old player? Thought he was talking about Grayson Allen?

I guess you're talking in a relative sense, Allen played 4 years at Duke so was among the oldest draft prospects. They're all young to me, I graduated HS the same year that Shaq did.
   53. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 04:34 PM (#5985733)
He was a 23 year old record, that definitely counts as old.
   54. jmurph Posted: October 27, 2020 at 04:56 PM (#5985742)
*too late to edit, that was rookie, not record.
   55. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 27, 2020 at 05:35 PM (#5985752)
Still skimming that old thread, and just got to part where the Lakers made all their "weird" post LeBron signings (Lance, JaVale, Rondo), in that order. There's some brief jokes about JR going there too, but this one was pretty good:

J1986 Posted: July 02, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5704117)
Next up on the Laker's agenda: Dwight Howard.


EDIT: [small type]stiggles called the Lakers missing the playoffs that season after LeBron signed and was mocked for it[/small type]

EDIT 2:
Posted: July 05, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5705740)
Hot take: Kawhi will never play at an All-Star level again

Name removed to protect the victim.

EDIT 3:
Posted: July 07, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5706793)
Kevin Knox is sort of like KD's skills in Giannis' body.

This is what we miss with no summer league this year.

knox has a lot of jeff green in him.


...and the cold water.
   56. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 06:30 PM (#5985757)
Posted: July 05, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5705740)
Hot take: Kawhi will never play at an All-Star level again


Whew. Had to check to make sure that wasn't me, since I often use that format.
   57. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 27, 2020 at 06:32 PM (#5985758)
Jabari to the Bulls is when I finally tap out.

I'm looking forward to the draft and FA for the first time in forever, even if I don't really expect the Bulls to do that much this year.
   58. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 27, 2020 at 06:33 PM (#5985759)
Jabari to the Bulls is when I finally tap out.
better career prospects going forward:

jabari parker or jahlil okafor
   59. tshipman Posted: October 27, 2020 at 06:40 PM (#5985762)
Gotta be Jabari. He can open a car dealership in Utah.
   60. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: October 27, 2020 at 06:56 PM (#5985766)
Is this the year I fake draft for Boston on here? This could be the year I fake draft for Boston on here.
   61. Mike A Posted: October 27, 2020 at 07:05 PM (#5985768)
In a (slight) defense of the Hawks, they didn't just pass on Doncic, they traded him for Trae and a lottery pick the next year. For a team going through a complete rebuild, an extra lottery pick is certainly quite meaningful. That pick eventually became Cam Reddish, who after a horrid start to his NBA career looked much improved late in his rookie season. I think he's got a lot of upside at just 21.

Now of course if you had 20/20 hindsight, you'd just stick with Doncic. But I can see why the Hawks did what they did.
   62. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 27, 2020 at 07:11 PM (#5985771)
Throughout his 16-year career, J.R. Smith has had only 1 teammate that he really didn't like.

That teammate: Sam Dekker

With that being said, I'm all the way out on Sam Dekker.
pic.twitter.com/j59f1eNbdE

— Eric (@E_DeBerardinis) October 21, 2020

Would you like to explain why your husband can’t say NI&&@R or should I? I don’t mind at all.
https://t.co/bgEZEUE3pm

— JR Smith (@TheRealJRSmith) October 27, 2020
   63. Thok Posted: October 27, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5985772)
Which do you prefer? Or do you just want to wait unless someone claims one of the other? We might have a Suns fan or 2 that posts, but not sure about OKC.


When I say I'm in for whatever, I literally mean I will draft for whatever team needs somebody. Memphis? I'll do it. Sacramento? Sure, I'll try. Philadelphia? I mean, I'll wonder what happen to Stiggles, but OK.
   64. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 27, 2020 at 07:18 PM (#5985773)
And I drafted Dekker at 20!
Yeah, that didn’t work out.
   65. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 27, 2020 at 08:19 PM (#5985782)
Philadelphia? I mean, I'll wonder what happen to Stiggles, but OK.
i have never volunteered to participate in a btf mock draft*, and i am not about to start now.



*this is not actually true. i once volunteered to draft for a team that had no draft picks, and then i wound up drafting for the sixers anyway.
EDIT: [small type]stiggles called the Lakers missing the playoffs that season after LeBron signed and was mocked for it[/small type]
none of those things are surprising. me being right? not surprising. me being doubted? not surprising. lebron quitting on his teammates and getting his coach fired? not surprising.
   66. NJ in NJ Posted: October 27, 2020 at 08:59 PM (#5985794)
To be clear...I was kidding about Knox.

I'll take the Knicks if no other Knicks fans here want them.
   67. BaseballObscura Posted: October 28, 2020 at 09:05 AM (#5986044)
I'll take the Raptors
   68. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 11:41 AM (#5986101)
Jazz to be sold to Ryan Smith, a 40 year old tech billionaire and Utahn already affiliated with the team.
   69. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 11:55 AM (#5986105)
1.6 billion sale price, including the arena.

EDIT: Cool that he's a lifelong Utah resident and Jazz fan. Presumably it's booey. Congrats on owning the team and being a billionaire.
   70. Booey Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5986115)
Well, I didn't want to brag, but... ;-)
   71. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:20 PM (#5986119)
When I say I'm in for whatever, I literally mean I will draft for whatever team needs somebody. Memphis? I'll do it. Sacramento? Sure, I'll try. Philadelphia? I mean, I'll wonder what happen to Stiggles, but OK.

OKC it is then.

i have never volunteered to participate in a btf mock draft*, and i am not about to start now.

You can have the Celtics if you want, none of them have volunteered yet.

To be clear...I was kidding about Knox.

Oh, I know, I just thought it was a great post illustrating what we miss with no summer league.
   72. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:25 PM (#5986122)
You can have the Celtics if you want, none of them have volunteered yet.

I think Winter's night sort of did above.
   73. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:41 PM (#5986128)
I feel like as a group, the "young billionaire owner" archetype is a pretty mediocre owner?

You have the Philly guys, Joe Tsai with the Nets, the Bucks guys, I guess the younger Kroenke with the Nuggets, the Grizzlies, Vivek in Sacramento, the Warriors.

I don't feel like any of them are great owners. I dunno, who are the best owners in the NBA?

I think Jeannie is great. Peter Holt. Ballmer.

It's weird that it's easier to pick out the awful owners than the great owners.

Edit: I also felt like the Miller Family was a great owner group.
   74. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:44 PM (#5986129)
stiggles, you can be Houston then. No trading Harden to Philly.
   75. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM (#5986130)
If the Warriors owners aren't great then I'm not sure who could be. They've been willing to go waaaaaaaaaay into the tax.

They shouldn't have a team there but the OKC owners have been willing to spend. Without thinking too much about it, a. willingness to spend, b. hiring smart people, and then c. staying out of their way seem like the three important factors.
   76. JJ1986 Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:47 PM (#5986131)
Um.
The Philadelphia 76ers are in advanced talks on a deal to hire Daryl Morey to oversee the franchise's basketball operations, sources tell ESPN.
   77. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:48 PM (#5986132)
If the Warriors owners aren't great then I'm not sure who could be. They've been willing to go waaaaaaaaaay into the tax.


Yeah. I guess the "huffing their own farts" vibe puts me off that ownership group. I dunno, living around here really makes you dislike the VC people as a group, so maybe I'm not being objective.

I feel like Lacob is a meddler, but just hasn't gotten a chance to because the team has been good.
   78. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:48 PM (#5986133)
It's weird that it's easier to pick out the awful owners than the great owners.

Irrespective of who is good and bad, it should be easier to pick out bad ones - right? "Did they do things to actively make things worse?" Good work can take a long time to become apparent (like Holt staying out of the way).

When it comes to being a good owner, a willingness to spend is part of it, for sure - I guess ones that have less ability necessarily are worse, c.p., than ones who can - regardless of their other virtues or lack thereof.
   79. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5986134)
Yeah. I guess the "huffing their own farts" vibe puts me off that ownership group. I dunno, living around here really makes you dislike the VC people as a group, so maybe I'm not being objective.

Oh sure I'm not saying I'd like them or anything.
   80. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5986135)
I feel like Lacob is a meddler, but just hasn't gotten a chance to because the team has been good.

I have that same vibe, fwiw. (little?)
   81. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5986137)
I guess ones that have less ability necessarily are worse, c.p., than ones who can - regardless of their other virtues or lack thereof.

Are there NBA owners that can't afford to go a little into the tax?
   82. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:52 PM (#5986139)
I mean, define "afford."
   83. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:53 PM (#5986140)
I think Winter's night sort of did above.

Whoops, missed that.
   84. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5986141)
The Philadelphia 76ers are in advanced talks on a deal to hire Daryl Morey to oversee the franchise's basketball operations, sources tell ESPN.

Well that's disappointing as I was pretty confident Elton Brand was going to blow the entire primes of Embiid and Simmons.

EDIT: Very weird to hire a coach before completing the overhaul of your front office.
   85. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 28, 2020 at 12:58 PM (#5986142)
Are there NBA owners that can't afford to go a little into the tax?

There's wealthy and there's WEALTHY. Anyone who's bought into the NBA since it really blew up is the latter; some of the old guard are probably more of the former. Like, Jerry Reinsdorf is rich, like super rich and way richer than probably all of us on this thread put together, but these days the overwhelming majority of his wealth is tied to this ownership of the Bulls (and to a lesser extent, the White Sox). But he absolutely can afford to go into the luxury tax every single year with the Bulls and still turn a profit. I'd assume something similar with the Buss family, but that's just a guess and I don't know (they also make a lot more from the Lakers than than Jerry does with the Bulls).
   86. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:01 PM (#5986144)
Moses gets what I meant. (Though teams absolutely can choose to make less profits than they do, as a rule).
I don't expect everybody to go Ballmer, is what I meant.
   87. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:03 PM (#5986145)
hahahahahahahahhaahhaahaha
   88. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:04 PM (#5986147)
I think most owners want their teams to run cashflow neutral. The fact that the franchises overwhelmingly increase in value is a nice little perk, but they want the business side to run like a typical business.

So every team could "afford" to borrow money against appreciated value and still run at a profit, but most ownership groups don't see it like that.

A complicating factor is debt, and some ownership groups want their teams to run cashflow neutral after debt service. Those are kind of the worst owners because they're basically pocketing money.
   89. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:04 PM (#5986149)
Honestly I'm going to answer my own question. I see your point, Moses/der, and it's a good distinction, but the Jazz just sold for $1.6 billion.

Every team can afford to go a little into the tax.
   90. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:04 PM (#5986150)
Are there NBA owners that can't afford to go a little into the tax?
reinsforf
   91. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:07 PM (#5986151)
well noted tship and no disagreement here jmurph.
   92. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:17 PM (#5986155)
I think most owners want their teams to run cashflow neutral. The fact that the franchises overwhelmingly increase in value is a nice little perk, but they want the business side to run like a typical business.

So every team could "afford" to borrow money against appreciated value and still run at a profit, but most ownership groups don't see it like that.

A complicating factor is debt, and some ownership groups want their teams to run cashflow neutral after debt service. Those are kind of the worst owners because they're basically pocketing money.


Sure. But Reinsdorf probably has little to no debt with either team - he bought into both so, so long ago and for what would be relative peanuts these days (White Sox 1981 ~$19mil and Bulls 1985 ~$16mil). The City/State own Comiskey and I know he got a ton of money to build the UC, and both are over 20 years old at this point (now that I mention this, I'm maybe I little surprised I haven't heard any rumblings about him wanting a new stadium for either; they've both undergone updates recently and the Bulls did just build a new practice facility/office next to the UC). He absolutely turns a hefty profit on both teams*, and could easily spend a lot more money and be in the black.

*For years and years after MJ left, the Bulls still were at the top (or at worst top 3) in the annual profit estimates Forbes did.
   93. CFBF's Results are Certified Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5986156)
I'll be honest, I used to occasionally get Hinkie and Morey confused, so Morey going to the 76ers isn't going to help that.
   94. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:20 PM (#5986161)
Terence Davis charged with assault and criminal mischief against his girlfriend. Between this and his COVID mask with the hole in it ... f this guy.
   95. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:23 PM (#5986164)
Sure. But Reinsdorf probably has little to no debt with either team - he bought into both so, so long ago and for what would be relative peanuts these days (White Sox 1981 ~$19mil and Bulls 1985 ~$16mil).


Yes, I am agreeing with you.
   96. Paul d mobile Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:24 PM (#5986165)
Yeah, maybe there's a reason Davis was undrafted.
   97. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:25 PM (#5986166)
Morey to the Sixers has to be the biggest possible thing to ever happen in the history of internet basketball nerd-dom.
   98. jmurph Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:26 PM (#5986167)
Morey to the Sixers has to be the biggest possible thing to ever happen in the history of internet basketball nerd-dom.

Seriously. Finally people are going to start talking about the Sixers on twitter and on podcasts.
   99. tshipman Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5986168)
Anytime you have a team that has a hard ceiling of the second round of the playoffs, you gotta talk about them.
   100. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 28, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5986174)
Seriously. Finally people are going to start talking about the Sixers on twitter and on podcasts.


Odds are I'll download at least one of them myself, so I'm not blameless here, but PODCASTS was the first thing I thought of when I read the news. So many podcasts!
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