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Monday, October 26, 2020

NBA Post-Bubble offseason thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA but we should have enough posters to fill out a mock draft regardless.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:08 PM | 2312 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mock draft, nba, off-topic

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   1801. Booey Posted: November 23, 2020 at 05:59 PM (#5990913)
Flip
   1802. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 23, 2020 at 07:18 PM (#5990916)
Rockets sign Cousins. (Worth a flier, imo)
Tinyball era, we hardly knew ye.
   1803. Thok Posted: November 23, 2020 at 08:13 PM (#5990918)
With pick 52, OKC takes Daniel Oturu, Minnesota. aberg is on the draft.

1. Indiana (from Minnesota) - Stiggles - JAMES WISEMAN, MEMPHIS
2. Atlanta (from Golden State) - Der-K - ANTHONY EDWARDS, UGA
3. Charlotte - Votto - LAMELO BALL, USA/LATVIA/AUSTRALIA
4. Chicago - Moses - KILLIAN HAYES, FRANCE
5. Cleveland - Der-K - DENI AVDIJA, EUROPE
6. Atlanta - Der-K - ONYEKA OKONGWU, USC
7. Detroit - Crosseyed and Painless - PATRICK WILLIAMS, FSU
8. New York - NJ in NJ - KIRA LEWIS JR - ALABAMA
9. Washington - Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant - DEVIN VASSELL, FSU
10. Phoenix - All Oriole Tragic - OBI TOPPIN, DAYTON
11. San Antonio - Hot Wheeling American - TYRESE HALIBURTON, IOWA STATE
12. Sacramento - smileyy - SADDIQ BEY, VILLANOVA
13. New Orleans - JJ1986 - AARON NESMITH, VANDERBILT
14. Boston (from Memphis) - If on a winter's night a traveling violation - TYRESE MAXEY, KENTUCKY
15. Minnesota (from Orlando)- aberg - ISAAC OKORO, AUBURN
16. Portland - mike f - JOSH GREEN, ARIZONA
17. Orlando (from Minnesota via Brooklyn via Atlanta) - Athletic Supporter - ALEKSEJ POKUSEVSKI, SERBIA/GREECE
18. Dallas - Dandy Little Glove Man - DESMOND BANE, TCU
19. Brooklyn (from Philadelphia via LA Clippers) - stevegamer - COLE ANTHONY, UNC
20. Miami - AG#1Fan - JALEN SMITH, MARYLAND
21. Philadelphia (from Oklahoma City via Orlando and Philadelphia) - tshipman - TYRELL TERRY, STANFORD
22. Denver (from Houston) - asinwreck - RJ HAMPTON, USA/AUSTRALIA
23. Utah - Booey - TRE JONES, DUKE
24. New Orleans (from Milwaukee via Indiana) - JJ1986 - XAVIER TILLMAN, MICHIGAN STATE
25. Oklahoma City (from Denver) - Thok, JALEN MCDANIELS, WASHINGTON
26. Boston - If on a winter's night a traveling violation - LEANDRO BOLMARO, FC BARCELONA
27. New York (from LA Clippers) - NJ in NJ - IMMANUEL QUICKLEY, KENTUCKY
28. Los Angeles Lakers - Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim - MALACHI FLYNN, SD STATE
29. Toronto - BaseballObscura - THEO MALEDON, FRANCE
30. Dallas (drafted by LA Clippers, from Milwaukee via Phoenix and Boston) - DLGM - PAUL REED, DEPAUL

31. LA Clippers (from Golden State, via Dallas) - stiggles - JAHMI'US RAMSEY, TEXAS TECH
32. Charlotte (from Cleveland via LA Clippers and Orlando) - Votto - ISAIAH STEWART, WASHINGTON
33. Orlando (from Minnesota) - Athletic Supporter - CASSIUS WINSTON, MICHIGAN STATE
34. Philadelphia (from Atlanta) - tshipman - PRECIOUS ACHIUWA, MEMPHIS
35. Sacramento (from Detroit via Phoenix) - smileyy - ZEKE NNAJI, ARIZONA
36. Philadelphia (from New York) - tshipman - ROBERT WOODARD, MISSISSIPPI STATE
37. Washington (from Chicago) - Mellow Mouse - NICO MANNION, ARIZONA
38. New York (from Charlotte) - NJ in NJ - CASSIUS STANLEY, DUKE
39. New Orleans (from Washington via Milwaukee) - JJ1986 - GRANT RILLER, CHARLESTON
40. Memphis (from Phoenix) - Willard Baseball - ISAIAH JOE, ARKANSAS
41. San Antonio - Hot Wheeling American - UDOKA AZUBUIKE, KANSAS
42. New Orleans - JJ1986 - JUSTINIAN JESSUP, USA/AUSTRALIA
43. Sacramento - smileyy - NICK RICHARDS, KENTUCKY
44. Chicago (from Memphis) - Moses - DEVIN DOTSON, KANSAS
45. Orlando - Athletic Supporter - JORDAN NWORA, LOUISVILLE
46. Golden State (from Portland) - DCA - TYLER BEY, COLORADO
47. Boston (from Brooklyn via Charlotte, Orlando and Philadelphia) - If on a winter's night a traveling violation - PAYTON PRITCHARD, OREGON
48. Golden State (from Dallas via Philadelphia) - DCA - SAM MERRILL, UTAH STATE
49. Philadelphia - tshipman - VIT KREJCI, FC BARCELONA
50. Atlanta (from Miami via Sacramento, Cleveland and Boston) - Der-K - YAM MADAR, ISRAEL
51. Golden State (from Utah via Dallas, Detroit and Cleveland) - DCA - KILLIAN TILLIE, GONZAGA
52. Sacramento (from Houston) - smileyy - NAJI MARSHALL, XAVIER
53. Oklahoma City - Thok -DANIEL OTURU, MINNESOTA
54. Minnesota (from Indiana) - aberg - ON THE CLOCK
55. Brooklyn (from Denver) - stevegamer
56. Charlotte (from Boston) - Votto
57. LA Clippers - stiggles
58. Philadelphia (from Los Angeles Lakers via Orlando) - tshipman
59. Toronto - BaseballObscura
60. New Orleans (from Milwaukee) - JJ1986

TRADE: BROGDON, TURNER, #54 from IND to MIN for #1, RUSSELL, SPELLMAN, EVANS

TRADE: CLINT CAPELA from ATL to GSW for #2 pick

TRADE: #17 AND #33 PICK TO ORLANDO, #15 PICK TO MINNESOTA

TRADE: HARDEN, COVINGTON TO PHILADELPHIA, SIMMONS, RICHARDSON TO HOUSTON

TRADE: OJELEYE + KANTER + #30 to LAC, WILLIAMS + 2023 Detroit 2nd (top-55 protected) to BOS

TRADE: DELON WRIGHT, KLEBER TO PHOENIX, OUBRE, CAM JOHNSON TO DALLAS

TRADE: JRUE HOLIDAY TO MILWAUKEE, #24, BLEDSOE, DIVINCENZO, ROBIN LOPEZ TO NEW ORLEANS

TRADE: ROSS, FOURNIER TO GOLDEN STATE, WIGGINS, MINNESOTA 2021 1ST (TOP 3 PROTECTED) TO ORL

TRADE: TERRENCE ROSS TO POR, TREVOR ARIZA + #46 to GSW

TRADE: KANTER + PAUL REED (#30) to DAL, BOBAN + #31 to LAC
   1804. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 23, 2020 at 08:39 PM (#5990919)
Oh ha! Didn’t see Oturu still on the board.
   1805. DCA Posted: November 23, 2020 at 09:07 PM (#5990923)
Mock GSW are almost ready to open the season (just need to find someone who would take Looney into space, and grab a pair of two-way guys).

I've made 3 trades, drafted 3 guys, and going to assume that I sign Wanamaker and Bazemore just like the IRL Warriors did - a solid backup PG and generic wing depth were my exact FA shopping list and at that price point. With Klay out, I'm going to deviate from my original plan and keep Ariza despite the tax bill.

Trades:

#2 for Capela
Wiggins + future 1st for Fournier + Terrence Ross
Ross for Ariza + #46

Draft:

#46 - Tyler Bey
#48 - Sam Merrill
#51 - Killian Tillie

(all signed to 4 year minimum salary deals using the MLE)

FA:

Wanamaker ($2.25m - MLE)
Bazemore ($2.32m - vet minimum)

Starters:

Stephen Curry
Evan Fournier
Trevor Ariza
Draymond Green
Clint Capela

Bench:

Brad Wanamaker
Sam Merrill
Jordan Poole
Kent Bazemore
Damion Lee
Eric Paschall
Tyler Bey
Killian Tillie
Alen Smailagic
Marquese Chriss

Total Payroll $163m ($162m against cap/tax)
Tax Bill $112m (!)

Keeping Ariza for two reasons (1) he's better than what I could get with a minimum deal or in exchange for Looney (2) more importantly, if I want to add somebody good on a real contract, I'll need his salary to match. I'm allowed to trade Ariza straight up for up to $16.1m in salary, and after the waiting period I can package him with fellow expiring Fournier and draft capital for a max guy (Beal is the obvious target here, but if something else comes up - e.g. the Clippers implode and PG wants out - it's good to be prepared).

Smailagic will probably spend the whole year in G-League. I'll want Poole and Bey to start there as well, and maybe Tillie too, which means I'll need my two-way guys to begin the season on the active roster. Therefore I'll be looking to sign post-hype retreads who have some NBA experience rather than undrafted rookies.

For adding talent in-season, I have expiring contracts for Fournier ($17m) and Ariza ($12.8m), a $4.8m TE for Looney, and a $9.3m (one year only) DPE for Klay.
   1806. tshipman Posted: November 23, 2020 at 10:18 PM (#5990924)
Smailagic will probably spend the whole year in G-League.


Kerr definitely has a history of jerking around his big guys, but I think Smailagic is the second best (non-Draymond) big on the roster after Wiseman in the real world or Capela in your thingy.

Certainly I think I would rather play him minutes than Marquese Chriss or some of the proven arsonists on the roster.
   1807. aberg Posted: November 23, 2020 at 10:25 PM (#5990925)
Minnesota will draft Karim Mane. Pretty full roster, so drafting a project to spend lots of time in the gleague, but he has lots of upside.
   1808. stevegamer Posted: November 23, 2020 at 10:31 PM (#5990926)
Mane was one of two guys I was looking at for [s]NJ[/s] the Nets.

The Nets take Marko Simonovic, PF/C, Montenegro

He's a big guy who can shoot, and maybe he turns into a player, but he can develop overseas.

Nets are done for this exercise. They drafted 2 players, and really that's about all they could do. They have a guard who has some upside for when Dinwiddie or (preferably) Irving leave. They got a project big for when Jordan leaves.

The roster couldn't be reshaped in any way positive without causing a problem with the players in charge, so that's that.
   1809. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 23, 2020 at 10:50 PM (#5990929)
Atlanta kind of flailed about here; I didn't do a good job.
I do think Capela for #2 benefits both teams - Atlanta can get a good enough center through free agency for less money and Okongwu (who I got at 6 ... if I hadn't traded Capela, I might have gone Vassell or Tyrese) will be the future there anyway. While I'm no Edwards believer and am still willing to flip him for the right value, he's big enough to play either wing spot (I don't know why people don't talk about him as a three) and gives Atlanta a bunch of lotto wings where one or more might eventually pan out. (That's now how one should treat the #2 pick, but it's that kind of draft.)
Really, though, this team is going to be about free agency... in a not ideal year for that. Plan on chatting up many of the younger FAs out there - Wood (might land him - he's silimar to Collins but that's ok), FVV (won't land him), Melton (might) among them. Will pursue Bogdan, who I think fits well, even as I find him overrated. I like Gallinari, but wouldn't spend that much on him at his age and history. Definitely spring for some defenders - if no Melton, than I pop for one or two of Dunn/MCW/Harrison.
   1810. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 23, 2020 at 11:11 PM (#5990930)
Rumor (as conveyed by a Hollinger tweet) is that the Blazers aren't adding a point guard to backup Lillard and will use Simons. I kind of hate when teams do this? You can find some pretty decent point guards at this point who might accept a second string gig. Napier might. Reggie Jackson ... might. Jordan McLaughlin? Beats a 2 way spot. Then, after you sign them - and if you sign someone who won't freak out if you also look at other players in that gig, groom Simons for that role. But if you want to make the playoffs, don't fail to have a decent backup here. There's perfectly adequate second string options ... but it can get dire if you need to pick up someone of the scrap heap a few weeks in (which covid may or may not complicate).
(I felt this way before last season, when Atlanta tried to use Evan Turner in this way for a hot minute, in a way that made me wonder "stealth tank effort"?)
   1811. aberg Posted: November 24, 2020 at 12:44 AM (#5990936)
Agreed. Portland could even try Simons there but have a third string guy ready if it fails.

New Orleans extending Adams removes the justification of his salary expiring from that trade. Makes no sense to me.
   1812. tshipman Posted: November 24, 2020 at 12:56 AM (#5990939)
If you don't like a move, David Griffin will have to appear on podcasts until you do.
   1813. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 24, 2020 at 01:07 AM (#5990940)
New Orleans extending Adams removes the justification of his salary expiring from that trade. Makes no sense to me.

he's a good player, in his prime, and NOP locked him up at a reasonable price.


what, did you think they're signing kawhi next year? giannis? okafor? lebron? the "best" case scenario for NOP in free agency is overpaying some random gorgigke heayrgaskm by 10MM per year. there's no reason for them to clear cap space from this position.
   1814. aberg Posted: November 24, 2020 at 01:20 AM (#5990941)
I don't think it makes sense to pay non shooters big money to play with Zion.

And yes, if he's as good as most of us think he can be, I think they'll be a destination and could use that cap space on a free agent. If they were dead set on paying another center, they could've taken a pick for the obligation of paying horford.
   1815. jmurph Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:05 AM (#5990945)
he's a good player, in his prime, and NOP locked him up at a reasonable price.

Agree that the price is very reasonable if he gets back to looking healthy and active. He looked 10 years older than he is in the playoffs just a few months ago.
   1816. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:30 AM (#5990947)
BTF Charlotte takes ELIJAH HUGHES, SYRACUSE. 6'6", led ACC in scoring. Will be old-ish for a rookie (22). Went #39 in the real draft, so feels like a good value at #56.

BTF Charlotte Roster:

Guards: Devonte Graham, Terry Rozier, Malik Monk
Wings: LaMelo Ball, Miles Bridges, Elijah Hughes, Nik Batum
Bigs: Tyler Zeller, PJ Washington, Isaiah Stewart

Free-Agent targets: Meyers Leonard, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
   1817. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:41 AM (#5990948)
Rondae can play.
----
We focus on surrounding a guy like Zion with shooters (which is right, he's so good around the hole and such high usage) but figuring out the right guy to pair him with on defense is a big deal too. At this point, I think he's a four that you want to hide and have the big you pair him with handle the tougher assignment / anchor at the five if the first answer isn't obvious. I don't think that Adams is as quick as I would want that guy to be - in addition to not being a shooter.
   1818. NJ in NJ Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:54 AM (#5990949)
Spent my morning YouTube scouting Cade Cunningham and I don't see it at all. I think he's a lock to be a solid rotation player, but would not pick him 1st. I see someone who is a solid passer (no signs of exceptional vision) and what looks like a good jumper (release doesn't seem particularly quick), but not much else. He's already 19 and has a very developed body, which helped a lot against HSers, but limits projection for what he will do in the NBA. Didn't seem quick and the handle was ok. As a result, I'm concerned the lack of wiggle will get in the way of him getting separation at the next level. I'm getting better passing Arron Afflalo vibes.
   1819. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 24, 2020 at 10:28 AM (#5990951)
BTF Charlotte takes ELIJAH HUGHES, SYRACUSE


I choose to believe he chose his university just so he can go around intoning: "I'm Elijah Hughes, from Syracuse."
   1820. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 24, 2020 at 12:47 PM (#5990962)
apparently noone has taken vernon carey yet. so yeah, i'm just going to take vernon carey.


LAC takes vernon carey, F, DOOK
   1821. aberg Posted: November 24, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5990977)
I wonder if Miami extending Bam means they are also hearing the whispers about Giannis staying in Cream City.
   1822. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 24, 2020 at 02:53 PM (#5990979)
that's the consensus, it seems
   1823. jmurph Posted: November 24, 2020 at 03:01 PM (#5990980)
Same agent, I think I read? So he would know.
   1824. asinwreck Posted: November 24, 2020 at 03:21 PM (#5990982)
After the Pelicans extended Adams, they max'd Ingram.
   1825. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 24, 2020 at 03:25 PM (#5990984)
These extensions... I know these represent the culmination of a journey for both teams and players, and I'm not saying they're bad, but I can't help but think that they have a kind of finality, because of the cap. Take Jayson Tatum -- in order to drive the Celtics towards a championship, he now has to be worth a lot more than $32-39M, which is just such a high target. Compared to last year's $8M Tatum or this year's $10M Tatum which is a massive asset.

Only really a few players are good enough to be worth more than that number. I guess the counter is that if you don't have one of those players, it's hard to win a championship anyway (getting 10 $10M Tatums is hard) but for a lot of these teams their fate is now largely set and the players *have* to get to that level to be worth more than their contract. We talk about the disasters like Westbrook, Wall, Wiggins, but look at Damian Lillard's contract with Portland -- he might be worth it, but he's definitely not worth a lot more than it and Portland is largely hamstrung outside of it, dooming them to be a mid-tier playoff team for the duration.

Anyway, it'd be cool if some of Tatum, Ingram, Bam, Mitchell got to the LeBron / Curry / Kawhi level, but now they *have* to, and most likely the contracts will force most or all of these teams to settle into non-contender range.
   1826. spivey Posted: November 24, 2020 at 03:37 PM (#5990989)
Tatum, Bam, and Mitchell are no brainer max guys imo. If you're not maxing them, you're only maxing superstars, which I think ultimately means you're going to be young/bad all of the time, and superstars aren't going to consider you a viable FA destination.
   1827. jmurph Posted: November 24, 2020 at 03:59 PM (#5990990)
I'm with spivey. The only one that is even borderline to me is Ingram, and he's just 22 (oops, he's now 23) coming off a solid year showing a ton of improvement, so I get it. The other three have already demonstrated a very high level of play and also play for creative organizations.

I'm also just convinced at this point that there's practically no financial situation that isn't fixable. Two years ago the Heat had like 4 or 5 of the worst value contracts in the league; three months ago they were in the Finals with none of those players still around.
   1828. tshipman Posted: November 24, 2020 at 04:18 PM (#5990997)
I kinda think they were all guys you absolutely have to max, but also think that there's a lot of risk. The cap is 109 and you're locked into paying 40 per for these guys, some of which you have no idea if they're really going to be max players.
   1829. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 24, 2020 at 04:23 PM (#5990998)
Yeah, tship put it better in 1/10 the words.
   1830. jmurph Posted: November 24, 2020 at 04:25 PM (#5990999)
Just to be clear no one makes anywhere near 40 for at least three more seasons, at which point the cap will be at least somewhat higher.

EDIT: Ingram tops out at 36 in 24/25.
EDIT: And that's if they hit their All NBA escalators.
   1831. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 24, 2020 at 04:35 PM (#5991002)
Ingram: I was involved in a lot of pretty heated discussions at the Lakers board I hang out at during the LeBronLotto season. A lot of fans there were talking about how terrible it was to give up all those beloved young drafted guys for an old mercenary guy, etc. I was always on the get-James train, and obviously that crowd is quiet now. One point I made was that none of the Lakers' young guys projected as franchise cornerstones and that they would stop being bargains once they hit FA.

As we have discussed here a couple of times, there is a class of guys who are worth well OVER the max, and there are usually only about ten of them in the league at a time. So that creates a middle-class and upper-middle class of guys like... Randle, and guys who get the max or close to it...like Russell and Ingram. I am not saying that NO made a mistake here; you cannot shut your operation down because you don't have Antetokounmpo or James. That deal is basically saying that Ingram can be Williamson's #2 on a contender. We will see if it happens. NO would be a fun team to be a fan of the next couple of years.
   1832. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 24, 2020 at 04:45 PM (#5991008)
broekhoff signs with philly, another shooter for their bench
   1833. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 24, 2020 at 05:03 PM (#5991011)
broekhoff signs with philly, another shooter for their bench
ahem, *re*signs.

the sixers actually signed him to play in the bubble...which he then immediately opted out of doing.

"I am not with the 76ers right now in Orlando," Broekhoff wrote on his personal Twitter account. "My wife, who is high risk tested positive for COVID-19. We have a young son, and my focus needs to be with my family at this time. I appreciate the 76ers for their support."
   1834. aberg Posted: November 24, 2020 at 05:26 PM (#5991015)
There are a lot of different ways of saying that it's exceptionally hard to win a title unless you have a Lebron, a Curry, a Durant, or a Leonard. Of course, that doesn't mean that teams like Utah or Boston should tear it down because it turned out that Mitchell and Tatum (or Gobert and Brown) are a step or two below that level.

At the risk of re-treading heavily trodden ground, championships are the #1 goal for every team and player, but there are lots of incremental good things that can happen below that threshold that make it not worthwhile to burn everything to the ground if your likeliest outcome is a second-round playoff exit. Making All-Star Games, winning awards, making the playoffs, and winning playoff series are all fun things for franchises and fans. Owners make money from those types of teams because people like to spend money to see them play (theoretically) or buy merch. That stuff matters!

The weird twist in all of this to me is that the PELICANS HAVE ZION. They already found their Holy Grail! Of course there's no guarantee that he will become an MVP and an inner-circle HOFer, but he's on a list of guys you can count on one hand who aren't there now but have a reasonable chance to get there (Zion, Doncic, Giannis, Embiid?, ???). The only thing they should be doing right now is gathering assets that preserve their flexibility to surround him with stars or guys who fit his talent as he approaches his prime. If they had kept Favors on a very tradeable contract instead of paying more than double for Adams and taken Ingram to restricted free agency, the worst thing that happens is you miss out on the diminishingly small chance that either one provides surplus value on their next deal. If you get nothing for them while Zion is still on his rookie deal, you just get another bite at the apple.
   1835. tshipman Posted: November 24, 2020 at 06:00 PM (#5991018)
Would the Kings be better or worse off if they hypothetically had given Boogie the max (and he stayed healthy)?

I think the fact that it's not clear cut that they'd be better illustrates the risk of these contracts.
   1836. smileyy Posted: November 24, 2020 at 06:51 PM (#5991020)
he's on a list of guys you can count on one hand who aren't there now but have a reasonable chance to get there (Zion, Doncic, Giannis, Embiid?, ???)


I'm getting skeptical on Embiid. His efficiency leaves a lot to be desired for me. Maybe he's being misused though?
   1837. smileyy Posted: November 24, 2020 at 07:04 PM (#5991021)
there is a class of guys who are worth well OVER the max, and there are usually only about ten of them in the league at a time.


So, who are they? Players who are actually on max contracts who I'd say that of are:

LeBron
Giannis
...
Kahwi
Harden
...
Jokic?
Tatum?
Mitchell?

Edit: I'm sure I'm missing some players, forgive me.

   1838. aberg Posted: November 24, 2020 at 07:18 PM (#5991024)
I consider myself a huge Giannis fan, but he still kind of has to prove it, doesn't he? As much as we blame Bud and Bledsoe for Cream City's postseason flameouts, the limitations Giannis has as a shooter are at least related to those problems. I will not come down too hard on him because there is enough history of generational great perimeter players requiring some trial and error in the postseason (Lebron, Jordan, even Jerry West).

I'd have Harden in the Giannis tier, too. Kawhi probably goes in the top one with Durant and Curry (who get injury asterisks, but they've done it pretty recently and I think they're both on full maxes now).

I think the odds are less than 50/50 on Embiid getting there. He has the physical ability and technical skill, though, so it would seem that the mental approach, coaching, and conditioning would be easier things to add later.

Part of me hopes for the Lebron-Giannis finals this year because we almost never get that kind of finals matchup between all-time greats at different stages in their journeys, but still pretty much at the top of their game. We got so close to Kobe-Lebron in 09 that Nike built a whole ad campaign around it. Jordan just missed Duncan and Kobe. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, and KG were the best players of their generation and all played in the west pretty much the whole time. Depending on how you rate various players, that matchup could be the best since Jordan-Malone, Hakeem-Shaq, Jordan-Barkley, or Jordan-Magic for pure star power.

That got me thinking about which finals in my lifetime had the least star power. It has to be 90 with Thomas, Dumars, and Drexler as the headliners.
   1839. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 24, 2020 at 07:46 PM (#5991027)
I'm getting skeptical on Embiid. His efficiency leaves a lot to be desired for me. Maybe he's being misused though?
I think the odds are less than 50/50 on Embiid getting there. He has the physical ability and technical skill, though, so it would seem that the mental approach, coaching, and conditioning would be easier things to add later.

taking these issues in order:

efficiency: he really didn't get any easy looks last year, and that makes it hard to keep up the efficiency. i don't think embiid will ever be highly efficient (unless he starts shooting 40% from 3), but there's some low-hanging fruit that he can still pick to improve.

misused: i don't think this is quite right. it's a minor issue floating around much bigger issues.

physical ability: sure.

technical skill: i think what separates embiid isn't his skill, so much as his willingness to try things that other players (especially ones that are his size) don't.

mental approach: he wasn't having fun last year. part of that was because the team told him not to have fun (for some reason), but the other part is that they got rid of everyone who stoked his fire, and replaced them with al 'pretending to fw philly was so exhausting' horford.

coaching: i think it'll be a positive for him to have a new voice in the room for the first time in his career. brett brown ran out of ideas like two years ago and things got really stale, so it'll be nice to have some fresh ideas.

conditioning: this one needs to #### off and die. everyone in that MIA/LAL series was exhausted. the difference between them and embiid isn't that embiid was out of shape; the difference is that embiid was the only sixer who was giving that level of effort. that wasn't embiid's problem; it was everyone else's.
   1840. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 24, 2020 at 08:08 PM (#5991028)
Sam Amick @sam_amick
Source, to @TheAthletic: The Kings are still discussing whether to match Atlanta’s four-year, $72 million offer sheet for Bogdan Bogdanovic, but are leaning strongly towards not matching. They have four hours remaining to finalize the choice.
Kurt Helin @basketballtalk
Did you request trade from Wizards?
John Wall: ‘No comment’
nba.nbcsports.com/2020/11/24/did…
Bobby Marks @BobbyMarks42
Oklahoma City will create a $19.5M trade exception with the Danilo Gallinari sign-and-trade to Atlanta. The Thunder also have a $27.5M trade exception from the Steven Adams trade to New Orleans.
Lang Greene @LangGreene
NBA free agency is wonky at times. Did anyone predict Kentavious Caldwell Pope securing more bread than Montrezl Harrell this offseason?
Kyle Goon @kylegoon
Lakers have officially waived Jordan Bell. That leaves three roster spots available if I’m counting correctly.
   1841. tshipman Posted: November 24, 2020 at 08:44 PM (#5991036)
conditioning: this one needs to #### off and die. everyone in that MIA/LAL series was exhausted. the difference between them and embiid isn't that embiid was out of shape; the difference is that embiid was the only sixer who was giving that level of effort. that wasn't embiid's problem; it was everyone else's.


Embiid is not well conditioned, dude. He is not at a championship level of conditioning.

efficiency: he really didn't get any easy looks last year, and that makes it hard to keep up the efficiency. i don't think embiid will ever be highly efficient (unless he starts shooting 40% from 3), but there's some low-hanging fruit that he can still pick to improve.


I think just playing everyone at the correct position will help Embiid a lot next year. There were a lot of #### lineups he got stuffed into.

Trading Simmons would also probably improve his efficiency.
   1842. PJ Martinez Posted: November 24, 2020 at 08:56 PM (#5991037)
Yeah, Embiid seems to get tired toward the end of a lot of games — it's hardly restricted to the Miami series. Maybe he shouldn't be faulted for it; I assume it is harder for someone his size to remain spry for forty minutes than it is for Isaiah Thomas or whoever. But him fading in the fourth strikes me as a persistent issue, one way or another.

Re: Giannis, it's certainly possible that his flaws are too easy to expose deep in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he's not worth well more than his contract pays him.
   1843. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:18 PM (#5991040)
I think this is a Pat Riley quote but it makes a lot of sense. For the best teams, the championship teams, either the best player covers for the limitations of the rest of the team or the rest of the team covers for the limitations of the best players.

I fully expect Giannis to win a title as the best player on a championship club even if he isn't better than he is now. He may have some flaws but he's so good that the Bucks or someone else should be able to build a team around him.

Also, how possible is it that the Warriors miss the playoffs in 2021?
   1844. jmurph Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:28 PM (#5991041)
Sacramento failing to trade Bogdanovic just looks so bad now.

I mean they should have just matched, I’m just saying if this was even a possibility they should have moved him.
   1845. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: November 24, 2020 at 09:50 PM (#5991048)
Kyle Goon @kylegoon
Lakers have officially waived Jordan Bell. That leaves three roster spots available if I’m counting correctly.

If they need any more roster spots, they can just waive him another 2 times.
   1846. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 24, 2020 at 10:43 PM (#5991053)
So, who are they?


Some might argue it's fewer than 10 at any one time. Guys in that category now by tiers IMO. I think all of these guys are probably worth 50M or more to a team in today's $:

James
Antetokounmpo
Leonard

Davis
Harden

Doncic
Jokic


Curry and Durant were there as well, pre-injury.

Historical guys on that level by era IMO:

Russell
Chamberlain

Abdul-Jabbar

Johnson
Bird

Jordan
Olajuwon

Duncan
Robinson
O'Neal
Garnett
Nowitzki

Probablys/Maybes/for a short time: Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul.

I am sure I am forgetting somebody.

Maybe more like 5 at any one time.


   1847. Booey Posted: November 24, 2020 at 10:56 PM (#5991054)
#1846 - Okafor
   1848. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 24, 2020 at 11:48 PM (#5991057)
What about someone like Tracy McGrady? In his prime, he was a devastatingly good scorer who was a good passer and didn't turn the ball over. He was also regarded as a very good defensive player. He obviously did not have much playoff success but he didn't play with a lot of good players in his prime.

Elgin Baylor?
   1849. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 25, 2020 at 12:05 AM (#5991058)
I get SAC not matching. ATL overpaid a bit to get him and the deal has a 15% trade kicker. If something goes wrong over the next year, they’d be stuck.
   1850. jmurph Posted: November 25, 2020 at 08:18 AM (#5991064)
Where are people on Atlanta after all of these moves? The offense should certainly be a lot of fun.
   1851. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 25, 2020 at 08:34 AM (#5991065)
The weird twist in all of this to me is that the PELICANS HAVE ZION. They already found their Holy Grail! Of course there's no guarantee that he will become an MVP and an inner-circle HOFer, but he's on a list of guys you can count on one hand who aren't there now but have a reasonable chance to get there (Zion, Doncic, Giannis, Embiid?, ???). The only thing they should be doing right now is gathering assets that preserve their flexibility to surround him with stars or guys who fit his talent as he approaches his prime.


That's a lot easier said than done though, isn't it? The Cavs didn't manage it during Lebron's first stint there, and they had two #1 picks. (They got to the finals once, but generally I think the consensus was and is that Lebron dragged them there and they didn't manage to give him much to work with long-term). The Bucks haven't managed it, yet. The Sixers haven't really done it. What is the last team to really surround a top rookie with the pieces to compete regularly for championships? Part of the problem is that these players go to teams that already have major issues, or they wouldn't be getting those top picks, and it's harder to turn an organization around than I think people think.

   1852. PJ Martinez Posted: November 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM (#5991071)
Maybe more like 5 at any one time.
This seems right to me, as a very rough (and fluctuating) figure.
   1853. sardonic Posted: November 25, 2020 at 10:27 AM (#5991073)
What is the last team to really surround a top rookie with the pieces to compete regularly for championships?


2020 - Lakers - Signed Lebron as FA, traded for AD
2019 - Raptors - Traded for Kawhi
2018 - Warriors - Drafted Curry, traded for KD
2017 - Warriors - Drafted Curry, traded for KD
2016 - Cavs - Signed Lebron as FA
2015 - Warriors - Drafted Curry
2014 - Spurs - Drafted Kawhi
2013 - Heat - Drafted Wade, signed Lebron and Bosh
2012 - Heat - Drafted Wade, signed Lebron and Bosh
2011 - Mavs - Drafted Dirk
2010 - Lakers - Drafted Kobe

So yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean by "top rookie." Wade was drafted 5th, Curry was drafted 7th, Dirk was drafted 9th, Kobe 13th, Kawhi 15th. Each of those teams required at least some other major breaks, which implies to me that picking a talent like Zion is just the ante to get a seat at the title contender table.

Dirk and Kobe are probably the most comforting examples above -- they each became good enough to be the best player on a championship team, maintained that performance over a long period of time and signed multiple contracts with the drafting team, which gave them many shots to win a title, a few of which were converted.

Part of the problem is that these players go to teams that already have major issues, or they wouldn't be getting those top picks, and it's harder to turn an organization around than I think people think.


Some of those very same organizations have in other years picked near the very top of the draft... the Warriors this year, the Mavs when they picked Luka, the Lakers when they got Ingram and Ball (arguably not the same org that drafted Kobe). The Cavs got competent under Griffin. I don't think that drafting at the top of the draft is a sign of a disqualifying organizational dysfunction.

(Also, it's been about a year since I was posting when I was in between jobs, but wanted to say hi to everyone and thanks for keeping the NBA more interesting for me than hoping that Eric Paschall grows into being a serviceable backup small ball 4 for an increasingly hypothetical future Golden State contender.)
   1854. NJ in NJ Posted: November 25, 2020 at 12:01 PM (#5991094)
The group of teams that get to win the title is so small that I think we're doing it wrong when we base "You need/need to do BLANK to win the title" based on the winner. I feel like using the 4 conference finalists gives us something more useful (obviously there are '19 Portland years).
   1855. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 25, 2020 at 12:08 PM (#5991098)
I think "every year, every team but one fails" is probably not the right frame. With 30 teams and four conference finalists every year that means (if it were random) a team should make the conference finals every 7 or 8 years. Obviously, BBall is anything but random (for a variety of reasons), but that at least is more achievable.
   1856. sardonic Posted: November 25, 2020 at 12:36 PM (#5991102)
My takeaway has become that winning any individual title requires a large number of breaks, whether that's drafting a generational superstar, signing one, in year injury luck, getting the right coach, a once in a CBA salary cap anamoly or whatever. Getting a Zion is necessary but not nearly sufficient.

From an organizational standpoint, in the long term it's about having the right leadership at the ownership and GM level that can balance the short and long term, getting that championship building block player (like many of the names above) and trying to maintain those things as long as possible.

I think orgs like the Spurs, Heat and Mavs have best embodied this in my lifetime. Sometimes outliers will happen, and in the player empowerment era windows are shorter than ever.
   1857. tshipman Posted: November 25, 2020 at 01:05 PM (#5991109)
The group of teams that get to win the title is so small that I think we're doing it wrong when we base "You need/need to do BLANK to win the title" based on the winner. I feel like using the 4 conference finalists gives us something more useful (obviously there are '19 Portland years).


I think it's appropriate to use the teams in the finals.

I think it's less appropriate to use the teams in the conference finals. There are a lot of hard calls like Denver this last year. Were they a legit team or a Portland '19 team?
   1858. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 01:12 PM (#5991111)
1856--

Yeah, for sure, and I have said that many times. Teams need luck and timing, in addition to money and smarts. But it comes back, with the always noted exceptions (2004-06 and 89-90 Pistons, and 70-73 Knicks) to having one of those guys. Popovich and Buford don't have one now, and they hit the lottery last year.

Looking at the re-framing suggested, teams that had great runs without a Top 5 guy include:

1980s Bucks
1990s-00 Pacers
2000-2003 Kings
1990s Jazz *although Malone was likely a Top 5 guy
1990s Sonics



   1859. Laser Man Posted: November 25, 2020 at 01:17 PM (#5991113)
[1850] I think Hawks fans are really excited, and definitely expecting a playoff spot. The team's depth is much improved, with 10 solid rotation pieces now - Trae Young, John Collins, Danilo Gallinari, Clint Capela, Bogdan Bogdanovich, Kevin Huerter, Kris Dunn, Rajon Rondo, Cam Reddish, DeAndre Hunter, plus the rookie Onyeka Okongwu.

The challenge is that there aren't a lot of great two-way players on the roster. Guys like Trae, Collins, and Gallo are great offensive players, while others like Dunn and Reddish are very good on the defensive end. The other question is how much will the young players (Hunter, Reddish, Huerter) improve, and how will they adjust to becoming reserves after starting a lot last year? It seems like 4 starters will be Trae, Bogdan, Collins, and Capela. The 5th could be any one of Hunter, Reddish, Gallo, Huerter, or Dunn.

The Hawks were on pace for a 25 win season last year. I think Hawks fans are expecting a record closer to .500 this year, and maybe a 6-8 seed in the East. And this year's team should be a lot of fun to watch.
   1860. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5991115)
Wanted to make a simple comment or two about the Lakers' moves; apologies if it has already been covered.

When Vogel got hired, I posted a long thing at a Lakers site breaking down his coaching record using basic Bask Ref data, since some people there were bagging excessively on the hire. Obvious conclusion: he is a good D coach--O, not so much. And, sure enough, the 2020 BubbleChamp Lakers were 3rd in DRTG but 11th in ORTG, even with James and Davis. One huge reason was rim protection: with McGee, Howard and Davis, the Lakers were #1 in BLK% and #1 (or #30) in opponent BLK%, blocking 468 shots while only getting 263 blocked themselves. Here are 19/20 reg. season block rates:

McGee 7.5
Davis 6.0
Howard 5.4
Gasol 3.2
Harrell 3.6

Pelinka is not dumb; he obviously knows this, and is assuming that the other stuff Gasol and Harrell do will make up for it. We will see.

As to the new guards, Schroder last year hit .385 on 3s, but his career rate is only .337. His AST% cratered in OKC, playing with Westbrook and then Paul, but he was up in the mid 30s in ATL. His ORTG has never exceeded his DRTG in his career, although his PERs have been pretty good. Matthews is 34 years old and had a PER of 8.1 last year, although he was decent by other metrics. He is at .381 career from the arc.

So...while I am mostly cool with the moves, I do not think that they are as big of a deal as some (not people here so much) are suggesting.
   1861. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 02:00 PM (#5991121)
Adding, looking at the plusses: I do like that Schroder and Harrell are in their 20s, and Schroder can create some O when James sits. Harrell is efficient. Also, Gasol has always has good DBPM and On/Off numbers, and he plays a good team game on the both ends. Pelinka is supposedly looking for a low-cost rim protection guy to add to the deep bench.
   1862. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 25, 2020 at 03:41 PM (#5991132)
Thon Maker's still out there. Just saying.
   1863. PJ Martinez Posted: November 25, 2020 at 03:47 PM (#5991134)
I suppose part of the commentator enthusiasm for Pelinka's moves (Lowe started a recent podcast by saying that the Lakers just "destroyed" the offseason, or "owned" it, or something) is that the Lakers were already the favorites going into next season, so every positive move is gravy, and they arguably made several, even if each one is incremental/debatable.

Plus despite the flurry of activity around the league, were there any really earthshaking moves? Is Jrue Holiday the biggest acquisition any team made? Am I forgetting someone?
   1864. Paul d mobile Posted: November 25, 2020 at 03:51 PM (#5991136)
Simmons had Jackie McMullan on earlier this week, and he asked if any contenders, other than the Lakers, made themselves better. They didn't think so, but didn't Milwaukee clearly make itself better?
   1865. tshipman Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5991139)
Lowe started a recent podcast by saying that the Lakers just "destroyed" the offseason, or "owned" it, or something) is that the Lakers were already the favorites going into next season, so every positive move is gravy,


Wow, I don't agree with either part of that.
   1866. DCA Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5991140)
OKC owned the offseason, as usual. They might not make the playoffs, but they may have added the most expected future championships.
   1867. aberg Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:05 PM (#5991141)
but didn't Milwaukee clearly make itself better?


Yes. Cream City is getting hammered because the Bogey trade didn't work, but in terms of their actual rotation, they replaced Bledsoe/Hill with Holiday, who is decidedly better. Even if they didn't improve by as much as it looked like they might improve, they still improved.

edit: Rolo/Marv -> Portis is probably a push or slightly positive. Matthews -> Forbes/Craig is about neutral.
   1868. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:10 PM (#5991144)
Matthews -> Forbes/Craig is about neutral.


I like this one a lot actually. Forbes and Craig are not really complete players but are very situationally useful. For a team looking for role players, I'd rather have people who can be really good at something that you can mix and match, than someone who's more well rounded.
   1869. spivey Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:10 PM (#5991146)
I like the Lakers moves, both to take some burden off of LeBron in the regular season and potentially the playoffs. But it's easy to imagine a world where Schroeder and Harrell are buried in the playoffs.

I don't like the amount of assets Milwaukee gave up for Jrue, but if Milwaukee gets Giannis to sign the supermax and turned Bledsoe into Jrue, they are definitely a winner, if not the winner, of the offseason.

   1870. tshipman Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:12 PM (#5991148)
I think the Bucks are worse in the regular season. They hope they are better in the playoffs, and we'll have to see when it comes.
   1871. spivey Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:16 PM (#5991151)
I think the Bucks are worse in the regular season. They hope they are better in the playoffs, and we'll have to see when it comes.


I agree with the first sentence, but that has to do more with the uniqueness of Bledsoe than anything. They needed to move on from him, and with the main moves being Bledsoe/Hill for Jrue/DJA and Matthews to Craig, I think they definitely project to be better in the playoffs. I don't think it's some big uncertainty. Is it enough if a fair question, and I think there were some moves they could have potentially made to further solidify their wing length that they didn't make.

That said, I like Bledsoe, and I hope he can improve his playoff performance for New Orleans.
   1872. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:27 PM (#5991155)
I have never been a huge fan of Holiday's game, so I do not think he is a huge add for Milwaukee. He was the right kind of add for them, but I do not think he is quite good enough for what they needed, although I do think that he makes Milwaukee very marginally better.

That said, I would make them favorites in the East again and they have as good a shot as anyone at the title. James turns 36 on December 30th; Antetokounmpo turns 26 on December 6th. I do think that the Lakers deserve to be the favorites--not so much because of the off-season moves, but to give James his "damn respect." Heh.

As to Harrell, he has played 19 playoff games in his career, 13 last year, and was not great last year. Schroder has played 46 and has been up-and-down. Had a pretty bad series last year.
   1873. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:29 PM (#5991158)
TheWarriorsTalk @TheWarriorsTalk
Would you trade Andrew Wiggins for Ben Simmons?
   1874. jmurph Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5991159)
The Mavs need to be on the list of teams to win without a top 5 guy, Dirk wasn't anymore (though not wildly far behind certainly). And the 13-14 Spurs (Duncan not there anymore, Kawhi not yet).

   1875. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5991160)
They might not make the playoffs, but they may have added the most expected future championships.


That is not the main way to win the off-season. The real key is how many Second-round picks you are able to stockpile.
   1876. jmurph Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:35 PM (#5991161)
if any contenders, other than the Lakers, made themselves better

I think there's a chance the Clippers got playoff better. I like Ibaka closing for them, and while I'm not a Kennard fan others saw that as an upgrade.

If the Sixers are a contender, and mileage will vary on that, I think they got better.

And honestly, weird one: maybe Houston? I mean obviously that will change if Harden or Westbrook are moved, but I'm not sure their moves aren't upgrades at this point.

Warriors added Steph Curry. Pretty big deal. (kidding)
   1877. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:41 PM (#5991164)
1874/jmurph:

San Antonio I could go with, since they made two Finals and almost won two. I do think that having guys who had been and would get to that level makes it a little different. Dallas was a very good team, but they were also a one-time thing, based a lot on some very hot shooting, and Nowitzki was still outstanding then at age 32, if maybe not Top 5.

But the Frazier Knicks and the Thomas Pistons each won twice, and each made three Finals, and the Billups Pistons very nearly won twice, without ever having what we think of one franchise-anchoring guy. The 88-90 Pistons came very close to winning three straight.
   1878. tshipman Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:41 PM (#5991165)
And honestly, weird one: maybe Houston? I mean obviously that will change if Harden or Westbrook are moved, but I'm not sure their moves aren't upgrades at this point.


This take is too hot to be relegated to a throw-away line.

You gotta feature that ingredient, chef.
   1879. jmurph Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:42 PM (#5991166)
Who did they lose! Covington? Eh. Rivers? Eh. (I'm probably forgetting someone very important but I'm blanking.)
   1880. jmurph Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:44 PM (#5991168)
San Antonio I could go with, since they made two Finals and almost won two. I do think that having guys who had been and would get to that level makes it a little different. Dallas was a very good team, but they were also a one-time thing, based a lot on some very hot shooting, and Nowitzki was still outstanding then at age 32, if maybe not Top 5.

But the Frazier Knicks and the Thomas Pistons each won twice, and each made three Finals, and the Billups Pistons very nearly won twice, without ever having what we think of one franchise-anchoring guy. The 88-90 Pistons came very close to winning three straight.

I can't be expected to read ENTIRE POSTS. Ha, yes, sorry, I was just thinking title winning teams, but yeah you're right on all points here.
   1881. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 25, 2020 at 04:51 PM (#5991170)
jmurph,

Your points about DAL and SA are valid, but for me, those NYK and DET teams are distinct. Other teams like that which I remember that came up a little short were the Drexler Blazers, the Miller Pacers and the Webber Kings, all of which lost to Jordan/Pippen and O'Neal/Bryant teams, coached by Phil Jackson (and the Blazers lost to Detroit in 1990). With some time this weekend, maybe I will look at some stats on those teams and then meander and vaporize about it on here.
   1882. aberg Posted: November 25, 2020 at 05:10 PM (#5991175)
The archetype of "several guys who were or will be superstars but aren't exactly there right now" could cover a handful of Finals teams. Just recently, that describes 08 and 10 Boston, 11 Dallas, 12 OKC, 13-14 SA.
   1883. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 25, 2020 at 05:56 PM (#5991186)
Whiteside to SAC on a one year deal (as you’d imagine). They had money and a remaining spot; wonder what this means for Bagley at the four v five?

I’m curious how much time Bogdan spends at the two (where there’s also Huerter and Dunn) or three?
   1884. asinwreck Posted: November 25, 2020 at 06:31 PM (#5991188)
I'm curious to see how much Detroit's roster changes before the season starts. Can't imagine DRose is staying put.
   1885. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 25, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5991189)
kill me now. i don't want to live in this world.

Ky Carlin @Ky_Carlin
Dwight Howard gives credit to Doc Rivers and Rajon Rondo for why he’s in Philadelphia this season #Sixers sixerswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/25/dwi… via @SixersWire #NBA
   1886. aberg Posted: November 25, 2020 at 07:32 PM (#5991190)
I’m curious how much time Bogdan spends at the two (where there’s also Huerter and Dunn) or three?


I seems like Atlanta's depth chart goes three deep at a lot of positions, and that's not usually a good thing.
   1887. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 25, 2020 at 07:37 PM (#5991191)
I seems like Atlanta's depth chart goes three deep at a lot of positions, and that's not usually a good thing.
hinkie died for their sins.
   1888. Laser Man Posted: November 25, 2020 at 07:46 PM (#5991194)
It seems like Atlanta's depth chart goes three deep at a lot of positions, and that's not usually a good thing.
Last year, the Hawks second unit was something like Evan Turner, DeAndre Bembry, Allen Crabbe, Vince Carter, and Damian Jones. Should be a little better this season.
   1889. spivey Posted: November 25, 2020 at 07:56 PM (#5991198)
I'm curious to see how much Detroit's roster changes before the season starts. Can't imagine DRose is staying put.


I imagine they're shopping him for another big as we speak.
   1890. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: November 25, 2020 at 08:53 PM (#5991206)
Whiteside supposedly got the minimum; that did surprise me.

I think Atlanta isn’t done setting their roster. Also, Detroit must be shopping Rose.
   1891. stevegamer Posted: November 25, 2020 at 09:37 PM (#5991214)

2010 - Lakers - Drafted Kobe

So yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean by "top rookie." Wade was drafted 5th, Curry was drafted 7th, Dirk was drafted 9th, Kobe 13th, Kawhi 15th. Each of those teams required at least some other major breaks, which implies to me that picking a talent like Zion is just the ante to get a seat at the title contender table.

Dirk and Kobe are probably the most comforting examples above -- they each became good enough to be the best player on a championship team, maintained that performance over a long period of time and signed multiple contracts with the drafting team, which gave them many shots to win a title, a few of which were converted.


How soon people forget. The Lakers didn't draft Kobe, he went there in trade - he dropped significantly in the draft, because there was only one team he wanted to play for.

I agree that Atlanta should be improved. Last year, the second unit was pretty bad.
   1892. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM (#5991250)
O‘Connor: I love what the Pistons did on draft night in adding guard Killian Hayes, center Isaiah Stewart, and forward Saddiq Bey. But after that, well, it’s as if there were two different people running this front office: one who handles the draft, and the other who handles free agency. I’m puzzled by the decision to select Stewart on draft night and then sign Mason Plumlee to $8.3 million annually ... and Jahlil Okafor? It just seems like overkill on the bigs. But I am curious to see how it works: Will Okafor just be a deep bench piece who plays sparingly? Could Blake Griffin play more minutes at the 5, now that they also added Jerami Grant to play the 4? On the surface, Detroit sure feels like a team that will lack spacing, which could hurt the development of their core young players like Hayes and Sekou Doumbouya.

   1893. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: November 26, 2020 at 02:15 PM (#5991261)
he dropped significantly in the draft


Perhaps, but he was the first non-big to come straight out of HS, there was uncertainty about him, and if people had been totally convinced at the time that he would have the career that he did, he would have gone higher anyway. Narratives about it are murky and are from people with agendas, but the idea that he was a consensus Top 5 pick that people stayed away from because he would only play for the Lakers is a reach, for many reasons. One thing about it that is underreported is John Calipari's role--he was with the Nets back then.
   1894. JJ1986 Posted: November 26, 2020 at 02:51 PM (#5991265)
Pistons starting lineup:

PG Blake Griffin
SG Josh Jackson
SF Jerami Grant
PF Jahlil Okafor
C M. Plumlee
   1895. tshipman Posted: November 26, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5991267)
When did Stiggles become the GM of the Pistons?

It looks okay, but Josh Jackson is pretty short. Can we pick up Thon Maker to be the SG?
   1896. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 26, 2020 at 04:25 PM (#5991270)
When did Stiggles become the GM of the Pistons?
i would never ... sign a plumlee.
It looks okay, but Josh Jackson is pretty short. Can we pick up Thon Maker to be the SG?
shoulda drafted bol bol
   1897. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: November 26, 2020 at 04:55 PM (#5991272)
Josh Martin @LonzoWire
LaVar Ball says Lakers owe him a Thank You card after winning NBA title lonzowire.usatoday.com/2020/11/26/lav…
undefeated. never lost.
   1898. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 27, 2020 at 12:03 AM (#5991283)
I do like what the Lakers did in the postseason but there seems to be a lot of love for them right now. A lot of people are appointing them as heavy favourites right now.
   1899. Paul d mobile Posted: November 27, 2020 at 08:38 AM (#5991294)
Will/should the Raptors be allowed to pay a housing allowance to players this year? I imagine at least a couple of them own/rent places in Toronto, and will now have to get a place in Tampa - obviously that would be a salary cap violation in most years, seems like a reasonable exception this year though.
   1900. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: November 27, 2020 at 09:28 AM (#5991303)
Flip.
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