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Monday, October 26, 2020

NBA Post-Bubble offseason thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA but we should have enough posters to fill out a mock draft regardless.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:08 PM | 2312 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mock draft, nba, off-topic

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   2001. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:09 PM (#5992142)
Per Woj, long-awaited Westbrook/Wall swap is here, with Washington kicking in a first. And so the two worst contracts in the league have new homes.
   2002. asinwreck Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:17 PM (#5992146)
That turned out to be remarkably straightforward. Now all Stone has to do in his first fall on the job is get the Harden situation settled.
   2003. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:21 PM (#5992149)
Per Woj, long-awaited Westbrook/Wall swap is here, with Washington kicking in a first. And so the two worst contracts in the league have new homes.
hot take:
tharris's contract is worse than westbrook's.
Eric Koreen @ekoreen
Did we ever decide whether Lowry/DeRozan or Wall/Beal was the best backcourt in the East?
   2004. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:23 PM (#5992150)
I don't really hate that trade for either team. Partly because I've never been a huge westbrook fan. It's a bummer wall has been so hurt, so I do hope he can at least play again.
   2005. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:43 PM (#5992162)
I think this board tends to be older/more level headed and thus not as interested in the soap opera aspect of the games.


I am probably the oldest dude here, and I live for the narrative/cultural shitt for which PER does not account. And I am of course as far from level-headed as Dwight Howard is.

The James extension is a very Buss Family/Lakers move. They will be paying him 44.4M for his age 38-39 season, and Bronny James graduates HS that year.
   2006. jmurph Posted: December 02, 2020 at 08:48 PM (#5992163)
I’ve never really enjoyed Westbrook but I can get behind him and Beal trying to drag the Wiz to the playoffs.
   2007. NJ in NJ Posted: December 02, 2020 at 09:29 PM (#5992171)
I like that deal for Washington. Both contracts are terrible, but you got the better+healthier player. Westbrook and Beal should be enough to get the Wizards to play-in game status.
   2008. puck Posted: December 02, 2020 at 09:30 PM (#5992173)
To that end, if you haven't read Taylor Rooks' recent piece on the bubble in GQ, check it out


Thanks, that was good.

I didn't know Rooks. So it caught me by surprise when he casually tossed this out:

That realness hit me when I learned about my great-uncle, Lou Brock, who played for the St. Louis Cardinals. He passed away back home in Missouri
   2009. NJ in NJ Posted: December 02, 2020 at 09:37 PM (#5992175)
I didn't know Rooks. So it caught me by surprise when he casually tossed this out

She*

I'm familiar with Taylor and finding out the Lou Brock tidbit this fall blew my mind.
   2010. RJ in TO Posted: December 02, 2020 at 09:39 PM (#5992176)
   2011. tshipman Posted: December 02, 2020 at 09:58 PM (#5992182)
Per Woj, long-awaited Westbrook/Wall swap is here, with Washington kicking in a first. And so the two worst contracts in the league have new homes.


The first is apparently protected somehow.

I feel like somehow both teams lost this trade.
   2012. aberg Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:01 PM (#5992183)
I agree with NJ that having Russ instead of Wall gets Washington to likely 8-10 range in the east. But is that worth a first round pick? I guess I don't know how hard Wall pushed to leave Washington or how much crap he would've stirred up if he'd stayed.
   2013. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:03 PM (#5992184)
fun fact:

four of the five longest tenured players with their current team are udonis haslem, steph curry, klay thompson and damien lillard.

name the 5th player who is missing from that list.
   2014. NJ in NJ Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:06 PM (#5992185)
[2013] James Harden?
   2015. aberg Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:10 PM (#5992186)
Based on who is asking, I'm guessing there's some loophole that makes it Jahlil Okafor.
   2016. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:12 PM (#5992187)
Based on who is asking, I'm guessing there's some loophole that makes it Jahlil Okafor.
no, but the player is almost equally esoteric.

*this player has never started more than 70 games in a season, but they have played 80+ games more than twice.

*this player did not graduate from dook or kentucky.
   2017. NJ in NJ Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:21 PM (#5992189)
[2016] Is JJ Barea still around?
   2018. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 02, 2020 at 10:26 PM (#5992190)
[2016] Is JJ Barea still around?
he is, but he is not close. joel embiid has been with the sixers longer than barea has been with DAL.
   2019. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 02, 2020 at 11:11 PM (#5992194)
Is it Patty Mills?
   2020. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 02, 2020 at 11:18 PM (#5992195)
Is it Patty Mills?
yes it is.
   2021. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: December 02, 2020 at 11:29 PM (#5992196)
I agree with NJ that having Russ instead of Wall gets Washington to likely 8-10 range in the east. But is that worth a first round pick? I guess I don't know how hard Wall pushed to leave Washington or how much crap he would've stirred up if he'd stayed.

Depends how heavily protected the pick is of course, but in general, I don't think a team in the position the Wizzzards are in, should be in the habit of giving away firsts. They should be trying to acquire them. A first for the potential upside of getting curbstomped in round 1? For me that's a hard pass.
   2022. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 02, 2020 at 11:47 PM (#5992200)
The pick apparently is pretty heavily protected. Lottery protected the first year, declining protections to eventually top-8 protected, then decays into a couple seconds. So it for sure won't be a top 8 pick, and I think such commodities are pretty fungible.
   2023. aberg Posted: December 03, 2020 at 12:59 AM (#5992207)
Can anyone think of another trade like this one where the clearly better team gives up the presently better player and gets back draft capital to make up the difference?

Edit: cleveland giving up irving comes to mind.
   2024. jmurph Posted: December 03, 2020 at 08:56 AM (#5992221)
Having thought about it a lot, I think this is good for Washington and pretty terrible for Houston. Wall hasn't played in nearly two calendar years; his last three seasons are 41 games played, then 32, then 0. The contracts are almost exactly the same. Westbrook is pretty clearly the better player, though just about two years older.

I know both guys are basically untradeable (except for each other!) but I'm not sure I see the urgency for Houston taking this deal.

EDIT: Having said all that, I hope Wall succeeds. Before the injuries got him he was a lot of fun to watch.
   2025. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 03, 2020 at 09:03 AM (#5992223)
I'm not sure I see the urgency for Houston taking this deal.
this seems like the NBA equivalent of NFL teams trading all of their disgruntled players to buffalo and/or cleveland. which is to say, this is a spite trade.


Mike Finger @mikefinger
Just as promised, Washington D.C. ensures Texas has functioning Wall by end of 2020.
   2026. DCA Posted: December 03, 2020 at 10:42 AM (#5992233)
Question:

Both Wall and Westbrook have 15% trade kickers. Does that mean they both make 15% more money for the next three years after this trade? I can't imagine either guy is going to waive his kicker and it's not required for the deal to go through.

Because that's one way to make this a lose-lose for both teams.
   2027. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 03, 2020 at 10:54 AM (#5992235)
Just as promised, Washington D.C. ensures Texas has functioning Wall by end of 2020.


Well, "a" Wall, at least.
   2028. tshipman Posted: December 03, 2020 at 11:21 AM (#5992243)
Now that Westbrook has moved out of the West (side question: should we refer to him as Eastbrook now?), Anthony Davis feels relieved enough to commit.

Somewhat surprisingly, Woj has him signing a 4 year max with a player option at the end for the full 5.
   2029. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 03, 2020 at 11:43 AM (#5992247)
Both Wall and Westbrook have 15% trade kickers. Does that mean they both make 15% more money for the next three years after this trade? I can't imagine either guy is going to waive his kicker and it's not required for the deal to go through.

I think they both waived the kickers.

The James extension is a very Buss Family/Lakers move. They will be paying him 44.4M for his age 38-39 season, and Bronny James graduates HS that year.

LeBron is very clearly a special exception, more than anyone ever. I think every team in the league would gladly pay him that amount for those years. Sure, at some point he won't be one of, if not the best players in the game, and it probably happens during that extension.....but I'm not gonna be the one to bet against him. And he still might be worth that much those years; if giving that to him is what it took to get AD to sign his deal for the same timeframe, it's even more worth it.
   2030. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 03, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5992267)
the full 15% wouldn't have been legal in the current cba anyway; would bump up against the salary ceiling.

i think pelton (who i almost always agree with) had it as a loss for both teams, especially dc. i think i like it better for the wiz, that we're underrating the likely difference between wall (who sounds like an awful fit with harden, if they're going to keep him?) and westbrook, even with the draft pick moving.
   2031. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 03, 2020 at 01:42 PM (#5992269)
I'm not sure I see the urgency for Houston taking this deal.
Reportedly, Eastbrook never showed up to the start of Houston's training camp. That situation had the potential to turn into a very ugly soap opera, which couldn't possibly help their hopes of Harden having a change of heart.
   2032. asinwreck Posted: December 03, 2020 at 02:17 PM (#5992279)
Thinking of the coaches involved, I'd rather be Scott Brooks working with two guards I've coached for several seasons than Stephen Silas walking into a totally new locker room trying to figure out how to establish relationships with Harden and Wall.

Edited because I confused Silas with his dad. This is a hell of a situation for a first-time head coach to enter.
   2033. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: December 03, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5992285)
I think in a vacuum, I would rather trade for Wall than Westbrook. Westbrook is a known quantity at this point. Which is a high volume, low efficiency chucker. Who is only going to get older and less athletic, but not want to take any reduction of usage.

With Wall, I could at least talk myself into a change of scenery, get him out of the toxic Washington environment, and maybe he is at least somewhat teachable. I wouldn't count on it, and it still requires him to get to at least close to his pre-injury ability level. But at least there is a potential path to him being valuable.

On the flip side, teams seem to want to continue to give Westbrooke chances. So he probably has more future trade value, and maybe you can get some salary relief and the pick back in the future.
   2034. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 03, 2020 at 02:55 PM (#5992290)
2017-19 (the solo OKC years):
Russell Westbrook: 32% 3P, 48% 2P, 76% FT, per possession used 25% AST 12% TO
Player A: 28% 3P, 48% 2P, 79% FT, per possession used 25% AST 11% TO

Russell Westbrook is player A, who is 16 days older, with the ball in his hands more.

Player A just retired to become an assistant coach.

(Yes, left some things favorable to Westbrook out, but when you have a similar per-possession-used player who just retired at age 31, that's not a good sign.)

With Wall, I could at least talk myself into a change of scenery, get him out of the toxic Washington environment, and maybe he is at least somewhat teachable.


John Wall is 30 years old, and presumably his athleticism is at best on the mend. Good luck with that.

I don't have any real opinion on whether the trade is good or bad, but no really, these are the two worst contracts in the league, STIGGLES' hate of Tobias Harris notwithstanding.
   2035. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 03, 2020 at 03:01 PM (#5992292)
If comparison is the thief of joy, why did [2034] make me laugh so much?
   2036. aberg Posted: December 03, 2020 at 04:12 PM (#5992307)
I think in a vacuum, I would rather trade for Wall than Westbrook.


I can follow your reasoning, but I wouldn't agree. Westbrook played at an All-NBA level for like 2.5 months at the start of the year. Yes, he was bad more than good and he's very hard to play with. Westbrook is strange in that he has generally either been all-star level or unplayable with very little in between. I guess that's what you get for someone with his usage rate. I wouldn't trade for either of them at this point and I definitely wouldn't attach a draft pick to get either of them no matter what else is in the deal (the one exception I can think of is if Washington were somehow willing to attach Beal to get off Wall and didn't require a mountain of assets in return, but that's not realistic).
   2037. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 03, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5992340)
I think there's an argument that Wall, if his health holds up, is an easier fit for more places than Westbrook, even if he's not as good of a player, in a vacuum. I of course wouldn't trade for either, but.
   2038. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: December 03, 2020 at 07:37 PM (#5992342)
The problem is, that even when Westbrook is playing all-star level, his teams still suck.
   2039. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 03, 2020 at 08:24 PM (#5992346)
number of 50 win seasons in last 45 years:

russell westbrook: 5*
1975-2020 wizards/bullets: 0


* could be as many as 7, if not for shortened seasons in 2012 and 2020
   2040. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 03, 2020 at 08:45 PM (#5992349)
Sure, but Westbrook and the WizardBullets have the same number of 50 win seasons without Kevin Durant.
   2041. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 04, 2020 at 07:58 AM (#5992381)
Both players wanted out. It is in the teams' best long-term interests to trade them, and since the money matches and they are similar enough that I think it makes sense for both teams. Even if it made both teams worse next year on the court, I think the trade is probably the thing to do.

The real problem is - of course - that both players are wildly overpaid for what they currently are. And no amount of moving them from team to team will fix that.
   2042. spivey 2 Posted: December 04, 2020 at 08:52 AM (#5992390)
Sure, but Westbrook and the WizardBullets have the same number of 50 win seasons without Kevin Durant.


This is quite an unfair comparison since most of Westbrook's OKC career overlapped with Durant's, and almost all of his prime did. Westbrook isn't a great player anymore, and stylistically he can be tough to watch, but let's not say he wasn't a great player for most of his career. Because he was, by pretty much any measure.
   2043. jmurph Posted: December 04, 2020 at 09:10 AM (#5992394)
This is quite an unfair comparison since most of Westbrook's OKC career overlapped with Durant's, and almost all of his prime did. Westbrook isn't a great player anymore, and stylistically he can be tough to watch, but let's not say he wasn't a great player for most of his career. Because he was, by pretty much any measure.

Yeah I personally preferred to watch Wall (in his prime years), but I can't really imagine much of a debate about who is better.
   2044. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 04, 2020 at 09:48 AM (#5992402)
Has there ever been a trade that involved as much money (as % of the salary cap) with as little impact on either team?
   2045. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5992429)
As someone who moved to Wizards country 3 NBA seasons ago, it's hard to overestimate how much I have simply not been perceiving John Wall as a player for the Wizards. He's played 73 games in that time, plus the first-round loss to the Raptors in 2018. It's almost like he's a retired player. I read about his great work in the community in DC, and I occasionally see interviews with him where he looks like a mess and seems to hate the interviewer. Stories about John Wall don't intersect much with stories about the Washington Wizards basketball team, the team with Bradley Beal and a bunch of even younger players who John Wall has never played with.

Sending a lottery-protected pick for Russell Westbrook, who makes the same salary they have been paying a purely theoretical player, is very exciting. However I guess this also means they are trading John Wall at the very low point of his value. Maybe his career isn't over! Maybe he'll play again THIS YEAR!
   2046. spivey 2 Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:16 PM (#5992431)
Sending a lottery-protected pick for Russell Westbrook, who makes the same salary they have been paying a purely theoretical player, is very exciting. However I guess this also means they are trading John Wall at the very low point of his value. Maybe his career isn't over! Maybe he'll play again THIS YEAR!


Wall's value is extremely low, but I would argue it was even lower 12-18 months ago. The fact he could play this year has rehabbed his value enough to where this trade could happen, imo.
   2047. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:20 PM (#5992432)
quite an unfair comparison

Oh, I was certainly being glib, and in his prime Westbrook was obviously very good (and better than Wall). But I have long struggled with how much Westbrook's greatness contributed to winning. In some ways he seems to be this generation's Iverson, where no one doubts his skills, but there is a lot of valid debate about how much he helps a team win.
   2048. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:45 PM (#5992438)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
The NBA has officially suspended random marijuana testing for the 2020-21 season ...

   2049. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:48 PM (#5992439)
stylistically he can be tough to watch


Man, independent of him not being a player that drives a team towards a championship, I love watching Russell Westbrook, I find his style super entertaining. I think Iverson is a good comp here.

Even today, I'd really much rather watch Westbrook's freneticism than, I don't know, Kemba Walker's more constructed game, even as I'd happily concede that Kemba does more to help his team win.
   2050. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 04, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5992443)
Has there ever been a trade that involved as much money (as % of the salary cap) with as little impact on either team?
Off the top of my head, the closest competition would be the Gilbert Arenas/Rashard Lewis trade; but this being the first true albatross swap of the supermax era, I have to imagine it's the all-time record for (share of salary cap / share of wins produced).
   2051. spivey 2 Posted: December 04, 2020 at 01:24 PM (#5992458)
Oh, I was certainly being glib, and in his prime Westbrook was obviously very good (and better than Wall). But I have long struggled with how much Westbrook's greatness contributed to winning. In some ways he seems to be this generation's Iverson, where no one doubts his skills, but there is a lot of valid debate about how much he helps a team win.


I think this is overblown. Those OKCs teams won a lot in the regular season, were good in the playoffs (Finals appearance, a couple of very game conference finals appearances vs. late era Spurs and the GSW dynasty), and Westbrook had at least for a 4-5 year run there had pretty monster on/offs in both the regular season and playoffs. And they were doing it with a pretty weak supporting cast, and one that did not really fit that well into what a team that surrounded KD and Westbrook needed. When you look back on those teams, they were just massively outgunned on roster spots 3-10 or 4-10 against those Spurs and Warriors teams.
   2052. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 04, 2020 at 02:05 PM (#5992465)
Westbrook had at least for a 4-5 year run there had pretty monster on/offs in both the regular season and playoffs. And they were doing it with a pretty weak supporting cast
This both supports and undermines your point. Aren't basketball stats fun?
   2053. tshipman Posted: December 04, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5992473)
This both supports and undermines your point. Aren't basketball stats fun?


I don't think it does. In 2015-16, Westbrook was a beast. He had a higher on/off than Durant did that year in the playoffs.
   2054. JJ1986 Posted: December 04, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5992477)
The NBA has officially suspended random marijuana testing for the 2020-21 season ...

It's Larry Sanders time.
   2055. smileyy Posted: December 04, 2020 at 03:27 PM (#5992485)
How many states does the NBA play in where recreational marijuana is legal?
   2056. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 04, 2020 at 03:38 PM (#5992491)
One province, at least, although not this year.
   2057. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 04, 2020 at 03:48 PM (#5992494)
Colorado, Arizona, California, Oregon, Illinois, Michigan, Massachusetts, Ontario, and D.C.
   2058. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 04, 2020 at 04:03 PM (#5992499)
That's a lot more than I would have thought.
   2059. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 04, 2020 at 05:42 PM (#5992502)
I do not (and did not) argue the point that Westbrook was a beast; I just mean that the specific combination of great on/off numbers and bad teammates does not add up to the sum of its parts. Westbrook played phenomenally well in those playoffs (similar usage to Durant on closer TS% than you might expect, with higher steal and rebound* percentages)! But it's also true that ≈55% of Durant's playoff shots were assisted to Westbrook's ≈23%, helping insulate Westbrook from vagaries in teammate quality, and that Durant's backups (Andre Roberson and Kyle Singler) were better than Westbrook's (Cameron Payne and Randy Foye). I'm not sure how much we actually disagree here.

* We all know he's a historically excellent rebounding guard, but let's take a second to appreciate just how ridiculous that is. Durant is 6" taller with 9" more wingspan. He lead all small forwards in TRB% that season! And Westbrook straight up outrebounded him in the playoffs (by rate, anyway, Durant had 4 more total).
   2060. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 04, 2020 at 05:47 PM (#5992505)
Kyrie Irving has apparently put out a statement through his agent saying he wants his work to speak for itself this year and will presumably not be speaking to the media. It'll be interesting to see if he sticks to that (and if the league lets him not speak to the media), and if so how it goes.
   2061. smileyy Posted: December 04, 2020 at 06:10 PM (#5992508)
I'm sure he sent that statement to the four corners of the world.
   2062. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 04, 2020 at 07:12 PM (#5992512)
[2016] <golfclap>
   2063. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 06, 2020 at 04:45 PM (#5992800)
Joe Freeman @BlazerFreeman
The Blazers just announced they've had 3 positive COVID-19 test results "within our organization" over the past 4 days. The practice facility will be closed "out of an abundance of caution" while they await further testing. Training camp was scheduled to start today.

Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Philadelphia 76ers rookie guard Tyrese Maxey has not been with the team at the start of training camp as he waits to clear COVID protocols after receiving a positive test, per source. The expectation is he will join the team in the coming days.
   2064. asinwreck Posted: December 06, 2020 at 05:26 PM (#5992809)
Garrett Temple tested positive on Nov. 28.
K.C. Johnson
@KCJHoop
·
5h
Garrett Temple reveals he has tested positive for COVID-19 last Saturday.

The Bulls’ first group practice of training camp is today. Temple will have to pass all safety protocols, roughly a 12-day process if it’s smooth, to return. He's 9 days in.
   2065. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: December 06, 2020 at 09:32 PM (#5992835)
Irving: You guys probably already talked about this (I will read more and catch up after finals) but I was wondering what the BTF take on BKN is. Since I have been pretty tuned out other than Lakers stuff, I had sort of half-forgotten that the Nets are more or less adding Durant and Irving to a team that went 35-37 last year. Brooklyn and New Orleans would be on my "most interesting teams to watch" list for sure. Irving seems to have lost his mojo post-James and is now seemingly more known for being weird than being good, but the guy is 27 and had 26.2 PER in the 20 games he played--DRTG/ORTG 109/119.
   2066. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 06, 2020 at 10:07 PM (#5992838)

Jeff Goodman @GoodmanHoops
Games getting shut down left and right, teams on pause, come back and go back on pause. Would be awesome to have someone in a leadership position at the NCAA. Maybe even, say, an NCAA commissioner. I can’t remember the last time I saw Emmert.
   2067. NJ in NJ Posted: December 06, 2020 at 10:44 PM (#5992840)
Irving: You guys probably already talked about this (I will read more and catch up after finals) but I was wondering what the BTF take on BKN is. Since I have been pretty tuned out other than Lakers stuff, I had sort of half-forgotten that the Nets are more or less adding Durant and Irving to a team that went 35-37 last year. Brooklyn and New Orleans would be on my "most interesting teams to watch" list for sure. Irving seems to have lost his mojo post-James and is now seemingly more known for being weird than being good, but the guy is 27 and had 26.2 PER in the 20 games he played--DRTG/ORTG 109/119.

I don't think Kyrie Irving's presence or absence significantly changes a team's fortunes. KD will help, but I do not have near the confidence of the consensus that he's coming back to be KD. And I'm confident we are staring at a bad defensive team. This feels like a Top 4 seed that gets knocked out in Round 2 type of team to me.
'
   2068. asinwreck Posted: December 06, 2020 at 10:54 PM (#5992841)
I have no idea what to expect from the Nets. Who's the starting five? How badly will injuries shape the answer to that last question? KD and Kyrie aren't the only players in their rotation to miss a lot of time the past couple seasons.

   2069. tshipman Posted: December 06, 2020 at 11:57 PM (#5992845)
The Nets are an absurdly high variance team, which is maybe a copout. The issues in rough order:

1. We have no idea who Kevin Durant will be. His game has trended more to the perimeter as he's gotten older, and with the likely impact of the achilles, he'll be even less likely to get to the rim.
2. The track record of unproven head coaches like Nash is not great. Nash basically was a development consultant with minimal day to day involvement and is getting thrown into a challenging tactical and man management situation.
3. Low key, the roster does not make sense. They have a bunch of guys in Durant, Kyrie, Dinwiddie and LeVert who all want the ball and don't particularly want to give it up. Obviously there's a pecking order in the NBA, but the Nets are ridiculously dependent on Joe Harris for a supposed contender.
4. They are not going to even pretend to play defense.
   2070. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 06:42 AM (#5992851)
4. They are not going to even pretend to play defense.
isn't their lead assistant dan tony?
   2071. asinwreck Posted: December 07, 2020 at 08:30 AM (#5992854)
Jacque Vaughn got a new contract after the Nash hire to be Associate Head Coach, and D'Antoni, Ime Udoke, and Amar'e Stoudmire were new hires. How many of these guys will make more this year than Mark Daigneault will to coach the Thunder?
   2072. jmurph Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:09 AM (#5992858)
It was seemingly little noticed because there were lots of other things happening (Hayward's leg, the team underachieving his second year, him being hurt a lot), but when healthy Kyrie was very good, individually, in Boston. Also despite the constant nonsense he talked in the media, by all accounts he was very popular among his teammates. If he and Durant are healthy at the same time for a full season, there's a chance they could put together a ridiculous offensive season.

But yeah, the team defense looks like it's going to be terrible. And I know they wanted to play together but I don't see the personality mix working either.
   2073. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:13 AM (#5992859)
I think if the situation was identical but this was happening on the Knicks instead of the Nets, there'd be all sorts of media snickering about how this is destined to be a catastrophe.
   2074. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:32 AM (#5992862)
I think if the situation was identical but this was happening on the Knicks instead of the Nets, there'd be all sorts of media snickering about how this is destined to be a catastrophe.
true. kind of puts into perspective how important it is to have a competent GM and an invisible owner (well, aside from tsai's poisoning the NBA's response to china's pressure after morey's tweet about hong kong last year) instead of a failson who thinks he's sister hazel.
   2075. spivey 2 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:43 AM (#5992865)
I'm not sure I agree with 2073 and 2074. The Nets aren't the favorite, and I don't think anyone is treating them as such. But Durant's playoff performances in Golden State had put him firmly in the conversation as best player in the NBA in the playoffs. Toss in Kyrie, and I think you have to at least acknowledge they have a chance to contend. There's obviously concerns though.
   2076. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:01 AM (#5992868)
Good thoughts on the Nets. A couple of my own:

Nash: Presumably the thinking there was similar to Golden State's thinking in hiring Kerr. Nash, like Kerr, and like Joe Dumars in his time, is known as being an a skilled communicator with a very high EQ--key skills in any leadership position in any field--and that you can find guys to do your Xs and Os etc. if that is a weak spot.

Durant and Irving: I have always supported the idea that Irving is a very good player, and I think he is well-cast as a #2. So I would tend to be skeptical on the side that it won't work rather than that it will work, but the caveat is the usual one: health and how close Durant will be to what he was pre-injury. Also, the concerns about team defense are well-founded.
   2077. NJ in NJ Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:40 AM (#5992869)
But Durant's playoff performances in Golden State had put him firmly in the conversation as best player in the NBA in the playoffs.

Kevin Durant had a very easy job in Golden State and I discount everything he did there.
   2078. NJ in NJ Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:44 AM (#5992870)
Re: Health

Obviously in agreement on the questions around Durant, but also think Irving's health issues are being undercovered. He's played in 156 of a possible 268 games the last 3 seasons and is now headed for a compressed schedule.
   2079. jmurph Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:17 AM (#5992874)
but also think Irving's health issues are being undercovered. He's played in 156 of a possible 268 games the last 3 seasons and is now headed for a compressed schedule.

Yeah, and it's not just recent. He's played like 4 full seasons in his career I think? And one of those was the first finals year that ended in an injury in the playoffs.
   2080. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5992877)
Why did the Wolves hire Rudy T? I mean, I loved those '90s Rockets teams, so I'm happy to see Rudy working, but ... ?
   2081. JJ1986 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5992884)
What is the Nets starting lineup even? Are they starting LeVert and Harris? Will they start Prince so Durant doesn't have to bang with power-forwards? They probably want to trade Caris for a better-fitting piece.
   2082. asinwreck Posted: December 07, 2020 at 12:58 PM (#5992885)
I assume Gersson Rosas worked with him in Houston.
   2083. tshipman Posted: December 07, 2020 at 01:14 PM (#5992889)
What is the Nets starting lineup even? Are they starting LeVert and Harris? Will they start Prince so Durant doesn't have to bang with power-forwards?


I assume it has to look like this at the start of the season:

Kyrie/Harris/Prince/Durant/DeAndre

The problem is that Dinwiddie is better than Harris, but needs the ball, and that Allen is better than DeAndre, but isn't one of the cool kids.
   2084. tshipman Posted: December 07, 2020 at 01:38 PM (#5992892)
I actually wonder if the best lineup for the Nets would feature Durant at center.
   2085. jmurph Posted: December 07, 2020 at 01:45 PM (#5992896)
There's a significant part of my brain that thinks they could be like 1B in the East if things go right. Kyrie/Durant/Dinwiddie/LeVert/Harris is a LOT of offensive talent.

Or, as alluded to above, a top 4 seed that flames out in the 2nd round.
   2086. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 07, 2020 at 01:57 PM (#5992903)
Count me as another fascinated by how the Nets will turn their talent into a plan. They've got a bunch of good players, but as noted most of their good offensive players need/want the ball in their hand, and the defense is going to be suboptimal. I'm not sure I see them as 1B in the East, I think you need more defense than I suspect they'll have to hit that level, and a new coach shrinks some of the margin for error, but it's a fascinating mix and the top-level talent is clearly there. In some ways it's an interesting redux of the Clippers move. Kyrie played 20 games last season, but Durant alone is a huge context shift for the organization.
   2087. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5992937)
The Nets are like a bizarro last years 76ers team.
   2088. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:45 PM (#5992949)
Knicks of the south has a certain ring to it, no?
   2089. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 07, 2020 at 05:02 PM (#5992952)
Knicks of the south has a certain ring to it, no?


Came here to post this. This is just a fantastic phrase on so many levels.
   2090. Paul d mobile Posted: December 07, 2020 at 05:22 PM (#5992955)
So Harden is holding out, and partying at strip clubs while doing so.

Where does he end up?
   2091. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 05:37 PM (#5992958)
So Harden is holding out, and partying at strip clubs while doing so.

Where does he end up?
CVS
   2092. aberg Posted: December 07, 2020 at 06:32 PM (#5992969)
Why did the Wolves hire Rudy T? I mean, I loved those '90s Rockets teams, so I'm happy to see Rudy working, but ... ?


Allegedly he has done some scouting and talked to Gerson about player/team fit over the last few months and this is a way to formalize the relationship. I don't imagine it will amount to much one way or the other.
   2093. tshipman Posted: December 07, 2020 at 07:04 PM (#5992971)
Allegedly he has done some scouting and talked to Gerson about player/team fit over the last few months and this is a way to formalize the relationship. I don't imagine it will amount to much one way or the other.


"See, your problem here is that KAT is playing defense like KAT. Have you tried having him play like Hakeem Olajuwon?"
   2094. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 07:26 PM (#5992974)
"See, your problem here is that KAT is playing defense like KAT. Have you tried having him play like Hakeem Olajuwon kermit washington?"
   2095. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:36 PM (#5993096)
"See, your problem here is that KAT is playing defense like KAT. Have you tried having him play like Hakeem Olajuwon kermit washington literally anybody else in the League?"
   2096. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:08 PM (#5993139)
"See, your problem here is that KAT is playing defense like KAT. Have you tried having him play like Hakeem Olajuwon kermit washington literally anybody else in the League Jahlil Okafor?"
   2097. smileyy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:39 PM (#5993185)
Apparently Harden remains interested in the Sixers.
   2098. tshipman Posted: December 08, 2020 at 05:00 PM (#5993192)
It seems like the whole Harden/Rockets/76ers dance is kind of pre-determined.

Harden wants off the Rockets and is willing to make that public.
The Rockets want to get Simmons at least to make the deal.
The 76ers are trying to lowball with Tobias Harris + picks or some other junk.

At some point, I think the Harden for Simmons swap just makes too much sense not to happen, but everyone's acting childish to try to extract more.
   2099. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 08, 2020 at 05:21 PM (#5993195)
If I am the sixers I don't think I want Harden. He is a great player, but there are some serious issues there. No thanks.
   2100. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 08, 2020 at 05:28 PM (#5993200)
At some point, I think the Harden for Simmons swap just makes too much sense not to happen, but everyone's acting childish to try to extract more.

simmons is 23 years old; harden is 31.

it's far from obvious that particular swap makes sense for the sixers.



what's actually pretty obvious would be BOS offering jaylen brown and an ainge-load of picks.
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