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Monday, October 26, 2020

NBA Post-Bubble offseason thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA but we should have enough posters to fill out a mock draft regardless.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 26, 2020 at 07:08 PM | 2312 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mock draft, nba, off-topic

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   2101. spivey 2 Posted: December 08, 2020 at 05:31 PM (#5993201)
In many cases, I would avoid Harden for team building, but their roster makes a lot more sense, and gets better with Harden over Simmons. Harden's one of the top few players in the league in the regular season. He has some post-season struggles, but so does Ben Simmons.

Relatedly, I was thinking to myself just now, if this trade goes through, I think the East may actually be better than the West. I don't think I was an adult the last time I felt that way.
   2102. JJ1986 Posted: December 08, 2020 at 05:59 PM (#5993208)
I think Embiid is as good a fit with Harden as any player you are likely to find.
   2103. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 08, 2020 at 06:04 PM (#5993209)
stiggles probably said something like this before, probably in our mock offseason, but Harden for Simmons makes the Sixers better in 20/21 most likely, then less likely each year and shortens the "window" for winning a title. As one of the folks who really don't think Embiid and Simmons are a great fit (and because I like when crazy things happen), I want this trade to happen. But I also completely agree with stiggles (and other Sixers fans) hesitance to make that deal for a number or reasons; I also think it's fair to want to see how a new coach/FO could better optimize the Embiid/Simmons pairing before blowing it up.
   2104. tshipman Posted: December 08, 2020 at 06:20 PM (#5993215)
stiggles probably said something like this before, probably in our mock offseason, but Harden for Simmons makes the Sixers better in 20/21 most likely, then less likely each year and shortens the "window" for winning a title.


An alternative POV is that the Sixers are not title contenders currently, are behind at least 3 teams in their conference (Bucks, Miami, Celtics), and Simmons for Harden opens a window that otherwise would not exist.
   2105. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 08, 2020 at 06:44 PM (#5993217)
Sure.
   2106. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 08, 2020 at 07:11 PM (#5993222)
If nothing else, the Sixers swapping Simmons for Harden would let us all discover just how good Embiid could be as a PnR roll man.

More broadly, I've been trying to figure out where Harden could/should land, and I don't see any obvious fits? At least if the Sixers are as lukewarm on flipping Simmons for him as they are posturing as being. Which team has room and incentive to trade for a 31 year-old James Harden after he ran his last few costars out of town? He's a one-man offense, but without much prime left and long ago stopped being cheap. I may be overthinking it and talent will out, but he's a risky bet for a contender, and it sounds like he doesn't want to commit to any non-contenders. Unless Brooklyn finds a third team to make it work or Daryl Morey decides he's willing to give up Simmons, it seems a lot more likely the Rockets will find a good fit at the trading deadline or in a year than now, after teams have set themselves up for the coming season. That'll make for an awkward time in Houston, though.
   2107. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 08, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5993223)
Seems like Harden's optimal fit is with a team with a strong defensive culture and players who are challenged offensively. Harden can deploy his super high usage while the rest of the team focuses on locking down on D.

That's right, everyone, it's your Orlando Magic. And boy, do we have some expensive contracts to match salaries with.
   2108. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 08, 2020 at 07:30 PM (#5993224)
so, here's what i've got:

after the way the sixers bombed out of the bubble last season, i said something like this: 'i don't see any path forward for this team. there's no cap room; there's no draft picks; there's no up-and-coming talent; the cupboards are bare and i don't see any way to recover from the mistakes that have been made.'

since then, the sixers have hired daryl morey and glenn rivers; they've dumped al horford; and they've done some other things. those moves cleared part of the negativity that i felt coming out of the bubble (tharris remains), but optimism has not replaced it.

i'm just in wait and see mode until the season starts.
   2109. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 08, 2020 at 08:10 PM (#5993229)
Seems like Harden's optimal fit is with a team with a strong defensive culture and players who are challenged offensively. Harden can deploy his super high usage while the rest of the team focuses on locking down on D.
Meanwhile, I'm rooting for Harden to land in a more egalitarian system: I really liked how he played in OKC (those days are gone, but those skills are not) and have a growing belief that extremely heliocentric offenses tend to work best in the regular season (classic efficiency vs resilience tradeoff).
   2110. smileyy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 08:21 PM (#5993231)
Seems like Harden's optimal fit is with a team with a strong defensive culture and players who are challenged offensively. Harden can deploy his super high usage while the rest of the team focuses on locking down on D.


The evolutionary Allen Iverson!
   2111. smileyy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 08:49 PM (#5993233)
On the Sixers nonetheless! Embiid is a pretty big upgrade over (IIRC) Theo Ratliff.
   2112. asinwreck Posted: December 08, 2020 at 08:50 PM (#5993234)
Harden to Oklahoma City for Horford, Hill, and a pick or two. The circle completes.
   2113. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 08, 2020 at 09:06 PM (#5993235)
Harden to Oklahoma City for Horford, Hill, and a pick or two. The circle completes.
it would take more than a pick or two. hell, PHI had to attach or pick or two just to dump horford on OKC in the first place.
   2114. asinwreck Posted: December 08, 2020 at 09:13 PM (#5993237)
Two, twelve...the Thunder have plenty to spare.
   2115. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:25 AM (#5993274)
The Thunder have to start combining draft picks and other assets soon, right? There is a limit to how many drafted players are useful to a team over a span of time (roster spots, playing time, no vets or leadership at all) and the Thunder seem way over that in the next few years.
   2116. spivey 2 Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:51 AM (#5993282)
The Thunder have to start combining draft picks and other assets soon, right? There is a limit to how many drafted players are useful to a team over a span of time (roster spots, playing time, no vets or leadership at all) and the Thunder seem way over that in the next few years.


Perhaps. I don't think this draft was the right place to do it, since it was pretty shallow and flat in talent, imo. There's a write up, year-by-year, here of what their draft assets look like.

Looking at their team, they still need a young influx of talent. A lot of their young guys are cast offs, undrafted guys, or otherwise guys who look like they may not make it past their first NBA contract. I think there's room for first round talent to enter their team and play. Their best assets seem to be the 2021 Rockets pick (though it's top-4 protected) and their own pick in 2021. There's a decent chance the Warriors pick doesn't convey, and that's their only two first round picks next year. There is room on the roster for both imo. Beyond that, the most interesting assets don't start rolling in until 2023, and even most of those don't become great assets until 2025-2026.

All this is to say, I think if some of the weak picks convey (let's say the Warriors pick and/or the 2022 Phoenix pick), then consolidation may be needed. But since the way so many of these picks work is they can become unprotected eventually, and are a few years out, I don't think there's any immediate action needed.

Edit: Consolidating picks for actual proven NBA talent is a different story, and makes sense to do if they can. I doubt Harden would want to go to OKC, and I'm not sure he fits with their time window anyways. Harden also someone I'm worried about how he ages. The strip-club loving, conditioning-challenged profile strikes me as one that could fall off a cliff.
   2117. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:05 AM (#5993296)
what's actually pretty obvious would be BOS offering jaylen brown and an ainge-load of picks.

I've been surprised how little the Celtics are mentioned in all the speculation about potential fits. Doesn't a Harden/Tatum/Smart core offer a lot more championship potential than what they have currently? The fit seems outstanding to me, but maybe I'm missing something. There are interesting ways to expand the trade too, like adding Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker for Kemba.
   2118. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:20 AM (#5993299)
harden to boston is my favorite idea in this realm - the celts should (imo) shake things up.
   2119. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:51 AM (#5993306)
Yes Harden to Boston probably makes sense in the short term but please no, I have absolutely no interest in watching him play every night.
   2120. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5993307)
Anyone following the annual ESPN rank project, in which they seemingly place names in a hat and draw them at semi-random?
   2121. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:59 AM (#5993311)
ha! has that started up again?
   2122. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2020 at 11:02 AM (#5993313)
Yeah they're up to the top 11-50 already.
   2123. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2020 at 11:08 AM (#5993315)
I only saw people on Twitter complaining that DeMar DeRozan was too low. I don't know what he was ranked, but I would guess he was actually too high.
   2124. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:18 PM (#5993329)
I believe they had him at 82 (saw similar objections), which seems, I dunno, roughly correct? Certainly not too low, but I'm not shocked twitter overrates a veteran 20/5/5 guy.
   2125. DCA Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:25 PM (#5993333)
He's a four time all-star (top 30) and two time all-NBA (top 15), as recently as two years ago. I think he would be (and was) overrated at that level, but he's underrated at #82. I think he's pretty clearly top 60 (there aren't two better players on average per team), but probably closer to 60 than 30.

   2126. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:31 PM (#5993334)
I would absolutely take DeRozan over John Wall for this season, the guy they have one spot ahead of him. But to me quibbling too much with like 65 vs 85 is a little harsh on these kinds of rankings.
   2127. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:32 PM (#5993335)
I think DeRozen is the kind of player whose ranking depends a lot on the priorities of the ranking system. In the current parlance, I'd say he's an ok floor raiser but not a ceiling raiser at all. He scores a good amount at ok efficiency, is an all right passer, needs the ball in his hands, and isn't that good on defense. His on/off numbers are consistently bad, but it's not like he isn't skilled. I'm not saying he's a terrible player, but I don't think I agree that there aren't two better players on average on each team either.
   2128. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2020 at 01:02 PM (#5993349)
I think DeRozen is the kind of player whose ranking depends a lot on the priorities of the ranking system. In the current parlance, I'd say he's an ok floor raiser but not a ceiling raiser at all. He scores a good amount at ok efficiency, is an all right passer, needs the ball in his hands, and isn't that good on defense. His on/off numbers are consistently bad, but it's not like he isn't skilled. I'm not saying he's a terrible player, but I don't think I agree that there aren't two better players on average on each team either.


I don't think he's even a good floor raiser. We have 8 straight years of him being a net negative, and 10/11 years of his career. Maybe there's a player in there who contributes to winning, but I'd rather have Poeltl, Gay or Patty Mills from his own team before him.

DeRozan is not bad at basketball, but he's bad at being an NBA player.
   2129. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 09, 2020 at 02:51 PM (#5993393)
Yeah, I was being somewhat polite with the "ok"; I think the crux is that DeRozen is a very skilled player whose strengths aren't that important in 2020 NBA ball and whose weaknesses are.
   2130. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 09, 2020 at 03:56 PM (#5993410)
those rankings are bunk. also, i miss when they would do the top 500. top 100 only? pffft.
---
shaq harrison to the jazz.
   2131. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 09, 2020 at 04:18 PM (#5993418)
Anyone following the annual ESPN rank project, in which they seemingly place names in a hat and draw them at semi-random?
... and you won't believe #57!
   2132. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 09, 2020 at 04:59 PM (#5993429)
I would absolutely take DeRozan over John Wall for this season, the guy they have one spot ahead of him.
Why is Wall even on the list? Last we saw him, his team had lost 7 of their last 8 games he played in, then he got hurt and went AWOL for two years, over which he was paid nearly $60 million dollars. Young, fast John Wall was really something, but I have absolutely no confidence that post-Achilles injury Wall is anything other than an expensive ticket to a lottery pick.
   2133. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2020 at 06:14 PM (#5993446)
Why is Wall even on the list? Last we saw him, his team had lost 7 of their last 8 games he played in, then he got hurt and went AWOL for two years, over which he was paid nearly $60 million dollars. Young, fast John Wall was really something, but I have absolutely no confidence that post-Achilles injury Wall is anything other than an expensive ticket to a lottery pick.


1. It's a dumb clickbaity thing, we are already spending too much time thinking about it.
2. I would put John Wall ahead of DeRozan as well, at least until he plays. There are very few players with allstar impact out there, and Wall had that kind of impact as recently as three years ago. That guy maybe gone forever, but there's a better chance that John Wall gets healthy and figures something out than that DeRozan suddenly becomes a winning player.
   2134. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:42 PM (#5993469)
what's actually pretty obvious would be BOS offering jaylen brown and an ainge-load of picks.

I've been surprised how little the Celtics are mentioned in all the speculation about potential fits. Doesn't a Harden/Tatum/Smart core offer a lot more championship potential than what they have currently? The fit seems outstanding to me, but maybe I'm missing something. There are interesting ways to expand the trade too, like adding Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker for Kemba.

harden to boston is my favorite idea in this realm - the celts should (imo) shake things up.

Yes Harden to Boston probably makes sense in the short term but please no, I have absolutely no interest in watching him play every night.


I almost posted a whole spiel on this yesterday. Almost every other Celtics fan I've talked to either agrees with jmurph or is even lower on the idea; I myself am intrigued with the idea, even though Brown is an excellent complementary player to Tatum and one of my all-time favorite players to root for.

For what it's worth, rumor has it that the Celtics did ask around about Harden but were "strongly advised to keep away". Although the Celtics front office is one of the least leaky in the league, so even well-sourced twitter reporting isn't at all useful for telling what they'll actually do (remember when Woj tweeted this four minutes before Horford announced he was signing in Boston?).

Anyways, the upside of a Brown/Harden swap is obvious: you add an MVP-level scorer, still in his prime, to a squad that nearly just made the finals. The more interesting wrinkle is how it affects the Celtics' extremely tight path to both contending in the present while maintaining the ability to retool the roster for Tatum's upcoming prime. Harden helps with the former, but pretty much obliterates the latter; in 2023, when Walker's contract expires, Harden and Tatum alone would make nearly 85m (assuming Tatum does get the full Rose Rule extension); that means there really wouldn't be a realistic way to change the set of max players; if the chemistry went south (on a Harden team? Never.) before the end of Tatum's extension, the Celtics could easily find themselves in a bad spot with no way out. In the player empowerment era, that's a dangerous gamble to make.

A single title would be enough to justify the move, even if it blew up in their faces in a few years, and Harden would definitely raise the team's ceiling in the immediate term; but just how much combined marginal championship equity Harden adds in a salary-capped league over the years before Tatum's player option is, sneakily, a much murkier question.
   2135. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 09, 2020 at 09:09 PM (#5993474)
Yes Harden to Boston probably makes sense in the short term but please no, I have absolutely no interest in watching him play every night.

None of us do.
   2136. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:29 PM (#5993483)
I would think that the deal that makes a bunch more sense would be Kemba for Harden plus Romeo Langford, Grant Williams (or whoever) and like 2 firsts.
   2137. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:55 PM (#5993484)
Cool--a should-Ainge-get-a-star-convo. Up Next: Chamberlain/Russell, Bling Markets/Flyover Markets, and Anti-Laker bias.

My opinions on this sort of thing are well-known: get top stars if you can. Don't get overly attached to guys you drafted, and don't overthink. I do have kind of a hard time picturing Harden with Walker, but I would need to see some more numbers on Harden and Walker--shooting charts, off-ball stats, D numbers. And I think expanding it, as someone said, by moving Walker elsewhere for pieces that would fit better with Harden, might make sense.

The conditioning concern is legit; Harden, like Bryant was, is a super high-usage elite scoring guard (and Harden is a better passer than Bryant was) with issues about playing style, personality, etc. But Bryant was a workout monster; Harden is of course, uhh, not and also COVID stuff going on. OTOH, Harden's skills seem like they would age well.

I would probably do it if at all possible if I were Ainge.

Harden for Ben Simmons--tougher to call, maybe, but I would look at it very hard if I were Philadelphia. An elite big paired with an elite perimeter guy almost always works, as we saw again with the 2020 Lakers. A two-year Harden/Embiid window might well be worth Simmons. Simmons is interesting and can be exciting, but he is 2/24 from the arc in his career.

   2138. GregD Posted: December 10, 2020 at 03:30 AM (#5993493)
I can see the Celtics doing that but I cannot imagine a starker likability divide than Brown for Harden. Brown is such a fun player to watch and seemingly such a fascinating dude. I’m not a Celtics fan but if I were I’d hate to see him go
   2139. PJ Martinez Posted: December 10, 2020 at 08:11 AM (#5993494)
Yeah it's a huge talent upgrade but blech.
   2140. NJ in NJ Posted: December 10, 2020 at 08:48 AM (#5993500)
Bit of a different take. Last year the Celtics were 4th on offense and 4th on defense. Obviously, Harden's contributions are concentrated on the offensive side of the floor. Even though Harden is a MUCH better player than Brown, I'm not sure that deal makes sense from the perspective of how much better could Harden make the Celtics on offense (it's not like he has a playoff proof game either) and how much will the defense slip losing Brown?
   2141. DCA Posted: December 10, 2020 at 10:09 AM (#5993507)
Obviously, Celtics would prefer to give up Kemba to get Harden; Rockets would want to hold out for Brown, since if Wall ever gets healthy he and Kemba are not a good pairing. I have a solution here.

There would probably need to be other moving pieces, picks to PHI if nothing else, but the 1-for-1-for-1 basic deal works under the cap.
   2142. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 10, 2020 at 11:04 AM (#5993517)
Am I crazy to think Harden's conditioning is underrated? By NBA standards, he certainly doesn't look yoked, but he's been in the top 3 in minutes played for 5 out of the last 6 years.

It's possible his playoff under-performances are fitness-related, but I think it's more likely related to better competition from opposing defenses.
   2143. NJ in NJ Posted: December 10, 2020 at 11:09 AM (#5993518)
[2142] I'm with you, but I've long since given up on fighting that battle. I think people have biases around how guys should look and when players don't have the same look there's an assumption that oh this player is fat and/or out of shape.
   2144. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 10, 2020 at 11:45 AM (#5993523)
Also, I'm not trying to defend Harden's late-night partying and going maskless. At best, it sets a bad example, and at worst, it does have detrimental health effects.
   2145. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 11:46 AM (#5993524)
Bit of a different take. Last year the Celtics were 4th on offense and 4th on defense. Obviously, Harden's contributions are concentrated on the offensive side of the floor. Even though Harden is a MUCH better player than Brown, I'm not sure that deal makes sense from the perspective of how much better could Harden make the Celtics on offense (it's not like he has a playoff proof game either) and how much will the defense slip losing Brown?


Celtics were better on defense when Brown was on the bench, both in the regular season and playoffs, in each of the last two years.
   2146. PJ Martinez Posted: December 10, 2020 at 12:15 PM (#5993532)
Celtics were better on defense when Brown was on the bench, both in the regular season and playoffs, in each of the last two years.
This could have something to do with who else was on the floor, no? Maybe he played less with Smart than some people, or more with Kanter, etc.
   2147. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 12:27 PM (#5993534)
Brown played more of minutes in the playoffs with Smart than any other player, and with Tatum in the regular season.
   2148. spivey 2 Posted: December 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM (#5993536)
Regarding Harden - one thing in his defense is I will say his signature move - the large step back gather and then jump shot strikes me as a very exhausting move. His playoff struggles do also have to do with better defenses and more physical defense being allowed.

But part of why Harden plays so many minutes is he puts so little effort into defense, and doesn't really do anything off ball when he doesn't have it. There's been a lot of speculation in the media, including by Lowe, that is intentional strategy to save his energy.

During the 16-17 season when Houston got destroyed by a Kawhi-less Spurs in Game 6, and Harden looked uninterested and there was some speculation he was just worn out physically - I remember there was a reporter who was allowed behind the scenes access to the Rockets to write a piece during that series. That writer went on an NBA podcast (probably Lowe Post, which I think was the only one I was listening to at the time) and essentially said that early in the series, D'Antoni and the Houston staff were thinking about how they manage Harden so he doesn't wear down. I was trying to find this, but I can't find Lowe Post podcasts later than 2018 on Spotify. That's of course always a consideration from a coaching staff - but I think this concern goes beyond body shape. It seems to have been a particular worry of Houston, and Harden does have some flags to this affect (Game 6 vs the Spurs being one of the biggest ones).
   2149. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: December 10, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5993538)
Brown is a talented, committed, and somewhat overrated defender. He has a bit of a tendency to lose his man off-ball and get back-cut, for example. I’m still a big fan, and optimistic about his future and continued growth, but team defense is currently the biggest delta between the hype and reality of Brown as a player.
   2150. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 10, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5993539)
A single title would be enough to justify the move, even if it blew up in their faces in a few years, and Harden would definitely raise the team's ceiling in the immediate term;


Even accepting this framing, a title isn't guaranteed, and if Harden comes with no title -- well, I think that'd be the end of Ainge and his reputation. It would go down as a huge blunder.
   2151. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:01 PM (#5993541)
I am a not particularly young person, 41, who has been fortunate to watch many teams I care (way too much) about win championships across all the major sports that I care (way too much) about. I don't want to watch James Harden play basketball, and I don't care what that does to the odds of my favorite team winning a championship. I really enjoy this current group of guys and like watching them play.
   2152. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:02 PM (#5993542)
Anyone else having issues with the site, by the way? Threads keep failing to load, it's just giving me a white screen, then I have to go back to the main page in the address bar and re-click into the thread.
   2153. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:22 PM (#5993548)
Damn:
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 5m
All-Star forward Paul George has signed a maximum contract extension with the Los Angeles Clippers that’ll guarantee him as much as $226 million over the next five years, his agent Aaron Mintz of @CAA_Basketball tells ESPN.

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 5m
The Clippers are extending George’s contract for an additional four years, $190M on top of the $35.4M guaranteed him in the 2020-2021 season. George will have a new player option before the 2024-2025 season, Mintz said.

Bobby Marks @BobbyMarks42 5m
Paul George- extension based on a projected $112M cap in 2021/22

2021/22 $39,344,970

2022/23 $42,492,568

2023/24 $45,640,165

2024/25 $48,787,763


I don't like that deal.
   2154. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:22 PM (#5993549)
Anyone else having issues with the site, by the way?

ALWAYS
   2155. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:23 PM (#5993550)
From Woj:
Six-time All-Star forward Paul George has signed a maximum contract extension with the LA Clippers that guarantees him as much as $226 million over the next five years, his agent, Aaron Mintz of CAA Sports, told ESPN.

The Clippers are extending George's contract for an additional four years at $190 million on top of the $35.4 million guaranteed him for the 2020-21 season.

George had a player option for the 2021-22 season that will be replaced with the four-year extension, which includes a new player option for the 2024-25 season, Mintz said.

A. I wouldn't want any part of that.
B. Given what they gave up to get him, I guess this makes sense.

EDIT: Coke to Moses. See 2152 and 2154 for further explanation.
   2156. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 01:38 PM (#5993556)
All these extensions look so, so much worse in a flat cap environment.
   2157. asinwreck Posted: December 10, 2020 at 02:04 PM (#5993563)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 5m
The Clippers are extending George’s contract for an additional four years, $190M on top of the $35.4M guaranteed him in the 2020-2021 season. George will have a new player option before the 2024-2025 season, Mintz said.


Paul George will be 34 when he makes his decision on that option. What are the odds he won't opt to stay in this contract?
   2158. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 10, 2020 at 02:11 PM (#5993566)
Apparently the only way Houston would trade Harden to the Nets is if the Nets send back Durant or Kyrie. As long as Durant is ok with trading Kyrie, the Nets should/would totally do that because there is no way they're trading Durant.
   2159. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 10, 2020 at 02:51 PM (#5993580)
If I am the Nets I would play hardball - "Our superstars want to play here and play together. Good luck this year."
   2160. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 02:52 PM (#5993582)
Trading Kyrie for Harden is probably the best version of that deal on the court for the Nets. Obviously doesn't work, but yanno ...
   2161. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 10, 2020 at 02:59 PM (#5993586)
My point is the Nets don't have to make a deal. They have a shiny new team with cool toys already sitting under the Christmas tree. A year to see how things shake out would be fine for them. The Rockets don't have that luxury. They are in a terrible negotiating position.
   2162. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2020 at 03:36 PM (#5993594)
Extremely distressing news out of Philadelphia- Embiid has apparently learned that he's allowed to apply pressure to the ball in pick and roll situations rather than just stand there like a statue:
Tim Bontemps @TimBontemps
Joel Embiid says it's been an emphasis for him in training camp from the coaching staff, and specifically defensive coordinator Dan Burke, to get up in pick-and-roll coverage more regularly instead of dropping back toward the rim all the time.
   2163. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 10, 2020 at 03:54 PM (#5993599)
This is too funny to me.

K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop
Denzel Valentine hasn’t practiced because of a hamstring tweak. Hopes to practice Saturday. Won’t play in first two games.


Cut to later...
K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop
Bulls had said team was fully healthy other than Garrett Temple and his positive COVID test.

Donovan just said he hadn’t thought of Valentine when asked about health earlier this week because Valentine hasn’t done anything since coming back to facility in advance of camp.


Oh, right, that guy. The one guy we offered a QO even though he was the most worthless and expensive* of the 3. Totally forgot about him, it's like he's not even on the team.

*may not be factually true, but close enough
   2164. Tin Angel Posted: December 10, 2020 at 04:09 PM (#5993603)
Extremely distressing news out of Philadelphia- Embiid has apparently learned that he's allowed to apply pressure to the ball in pick and roll situations rather than just stand there like a statue


Does this mean he'll now run out of gas in the third instead of fourth quarter?
   2165. aberg Posted: December 10, 2020 at 04:36 PM (#5993611)
My counter-points on the PG extension.

-Extending him does more to increase their title odds than anything else they could have done instead for most of that contract (the final season will be his age 34 season, which is getting old, but it's not like his whole game depends on getting to the rim). As long as they keep Kawhi, they'll be above the cap next summer anyway.

-Of the guys who are worth more than George (all ~15-20 of them), the list of those who would be available to the Clippers over the next 1-2 years probably has nobody else on it.

-That contract is probably still tradeable without giving up assets into the 2nd or 3rd year if he maintains something close to his current level of performance. That's only relevant if they decide to blow it up and start over.

-I think George's very real playoff shortcomings have obscured how good he is. He was 3rd in MVP voting just the year before last. Since he came back from that horrible broken leg, he's been a 39% 3pt shooter on high volume. He rebounds really well for a wing, has enough secondary play-making ability, and defends at a super high level. He's an almost ideal second star option. His game is similar to Klay if you rounded down a bit on the shooting accuracy and replaced it with better play-making.

-He was really good in the playoffs for IND. I will admit I don't get what has happened since then because he has been a lot worse in the playoffs than the regular season in his last three trips with both OKC and LAC. If you're sold that it's going to continue like that forever, it's fair to be skeptical. It's still just over 20 games. That's not nothing, but it's also not enough for me to make a conclusive judgment.
   2166. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 05:35 PM (#5993628)
My counter-points on the PG extension.

-Extending him does more to increase their title odds than anything else they could have done instead for most of that contract (the final season will be his age 34 season, which is getting old, but it's not like his whole game depends on getting to the rim). As long as they keep Kawhi, they'll be above the cap next summer anyway.


So I guess my big question about this would be: what happens if they don't keep Kawhi? Would you rather have PG on this extension or no?

I submit that you would not want to have Paul George if Kawhi isn't there, and that you would not be able to pick up significant value for him in trade if Kawhi leaves. I think he always takes the extension, so there's no rush to make this move.
   2167. aberg Posted: December 10, 2020 at 06:46 PM (#5993643)
So I guess my big question about this would be: what happens if they don't keep Kawhi? Would you rather have PG on this extension or no?

I submit that you would not want to have Paul George if Kawhi isn't there, and that you would not be able to pick up significant value for him in trade if Kawhi leaves. I think he always takes the extension, so there's no rush to make this move.


Possibly. They are slated to be FAs at the same time, so there's also the possibility that Kawhi wanted to see this deal done, or that Kawhi is planning to do a similar deal before reaching free agency. If Kawhi leaves, I think they can still trade George on this contract for something like neutral value, but I guess we will have to wait and see on that.
   2168. spivey 2 Posted: December 10, 2020 at 07:42 PM (#5993647)
Given the number of assets guys like Paul, Jrue, and others have been able to fetch I think George on this contract can absolutely fetch good assets, if you’re patient on when you sell.
   2169. aberg Posted: December 10, 2020 at 07:57 PM (#5993650)
It would be interesting to see a list of traded max contracts traded for positive value or that had to have value attached to them to get off the money. It would be an inexact science, but I think you could get a pretty good read on what is positive/negative value.
   2170. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2020 at 08:47 PM (#5993659)
If Kawhi leaves, I think they can still trade George on this contract for something like neutral value, but I guess we will have to wait and see on that.


The biggest risk is that Paul George suffers some kind of serious injury, causing Kawhi to leave because he would no longer be on a contender. This intensifies that downside, so it means that I wouldn't make this deal if it were me.
   2171. jmurph Posted: December 11, 2020 at 07:54 AM (#5993689)
Whoa I did not realize there were actual preseason games tonight.
   2172. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2020 at 10:09 AM (#5993703)
Whoa I did not realize there were actual preseason games tonight.

Knicks basketball is back!!!
   2173. jmurph Posted: December 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM (#5993707)
It really has been a long time for the non-bubble teams.
   2174. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: December 11, 2020 at 10:59 AM (#5993709)
Not expecting much from the new-look Twolves, he said for the 25th year running.
   2175. billyshears Posted: December 11, 2020 at 11:50 AM (#5993713)
The Clippers don't control their first round pick until 2027. For all intents and purposes, the Clippers agreed to this extension when they traded for George. If Kawhi leaves, I suppose this forecloses the option of emptying the roster and finding a couple stars that want to come to LA and play together, but (a) stars seem to prefer some kind of infrastructure and (b) what are the odds both of those available stars are better than George?
   2176. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM (#5993717)
I have many expectations for the Wolves. Offense, I expect good offense. And defense, I expect when the other team has the ball Wolves players will nominally be involved in the activity commonly known as defense.
   2177. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 11, 2020 at 12:19 PM (#5993718)
I expect the Bulls to look totally different, but with virtually the same roster. Competence is a low bar, but totally achievable for them this year.
   2178. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2020 at 02:00 PM (#5993729)
Justin Grasso @JGrasso_
The #Sixers had a fully healthy roster practicing today for the second day in a row

   2179. JJ1986 Posted: December 11, 2020 at 02:01 PM (#5993730)
The #Sixers had a fully healthy roster practicing today for the second day in a row 8 years.
   2180. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5993731)
(that's the joke)
   2181. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2020 at 07:47 PM (#5993766)
Rod Beard @detnewsRodBeard
Okafor gets a couple of baskets inside. Nice feed from Griffin and the other off a hustle putback.

Nate Duncan @NateDuncanNBA
Maybe the reason quality of play was so good in the bubble was that the 8 worst teams weren't invited

   2182. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: December 11, 2020 at 09:04 PM (#5993772)
First game in forever, preseason, blah blah blah. But good Lord, this bulls stuff is just...ugh. The best thing I can say is I'm so glad neil funk retired. Only postitive so far.

Cousins and Wall look like world-beaters again against this pile of junk.
   2183. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2020 at 09:54 PM (#5993777)
David Hardisty @clutchfans
Bulls Broadcaster: "If you're James Harden, boy, you might be rethinking trying to leave Houston. There are some good complementary pieces. Wall would be nice for him, and Boogie Cousins!"

   2184. asinwreck Posted: December 12, 2020 at 09:07 AM (#5993785)
Was Satoranský the only Bull on the court who'd played games this summer? He looked much less sloppy than the rest of the team.
   2185. tshipman Posted: December 12, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5993838)
Taylor Horton-Tucker looks playable as an 8th man. Picking up free depth like that is huge.
   2186. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 12, 2020 at 08:42 PM (#5993850)
Jon Hamm @JonMHamm
someone elbowed Admiral Schofield in the face. I hope the elbow is OK.

Drew Shiller @DrewShiller
The Warriors are on pace to attempt 559 3s tonight
   2187. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 12, 2020 at 10:00 PM (#5993857)
Peter Edmiston @peteredmiston
Just saw an advertisement for something called the Horse Shopping Channel while watching the Grizzlies game. I'm not drunk or high
Dane Moore @DaneMooreNBA
Wolves offense has gone completely anemic twice tonight. 1. When Culver and Okogie were on together 2. When Davis and RHJ were on together I know it's preseason and guys gotta get reps, but the spacing just dies. Don't think you can play those pairs during the regular season.
Rick Bonnell @rick_bonnell
Quick thoughts on LaMelo Ball, Gordon Hayward and the first @Charlotte Hornets game in nine months: charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlot…
Sarah Todd @NBASarah
Guy trying to name that TV show theme at the Jazz game during a timeout just missed, Gilligan's Island, Game of Thrones, Stranger Things, Cheers, and Law and Order...so I'm pretty upset.
Ben Anderson @BensHoops
Okay I’ve seen enough. Derrick Favors is better than Tony Bradley.
   2188. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 13, 2020 at 11:52 AM (#5993900)
Sarah Todd @NBASarah
Guy trying to name that TV show theme at the Jazz game during a timeout just missed, Gilligan's Island, Game of Thrones, Stranger Things, Cheers, and Law and Order...so I'm pretty upset.


I would miss all of those except for "Cheers".

NBA-adjacent news about potential 2021 first-round pick Keyontae Johnson of UF - in critical but stable contditon after collapsing on the court. He had contracted Covid during the summer.
   2189. tshipman Posted: December 13, 2020 at 01:02 PM (#5993909)
How the #### can anyone miss the Law and Order theme?
   2190. JJ1986 Posted: December 13, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5993921)
I've seen one season of Stranger Things, but I'd miss that one. Pretty sure I'd get all the rest.
   2191. tshipman Posted: December 13, 2020 at 04:09 PM (#5993925)
Dwight Howard bringing veteran knowhow to the Sixers already.

Armica Nabaa and Kamisha Shelman filed a lawsuit against Philadelphia 76ers center Dwight Howard, claiming unpaid wages after he fired them in January.

TMZ Sports reported the women are claiming at least $50,000 in unpaid wages for services rendered, including taking care of Howard's exotic snake collection.

The suit says Howard hired Nabaa and Shelman in December 2018 to handle "business affairs and administrative tasks" but soon were given more extended duties. Responsibilities allegedly included tasks that were previously held by Howard's groundskeeper, butler and maid, who were fired by the three-time Defensive Player of the Year.

Nabaa also says she helped Howard sign with the Los Angeles Lakers last offseason using her "network and contacts."



Really a shame for Seventy Sixers Center Dwight Howard.
   2192. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: December 13, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5993926)
Really a shame for Seventy Sixers Center Dwight Howard.

ugh. i still don't like seeing that phrase.
   2193. asinwreck Posted: December 13, 2020 at 06:46 PM (#5993943)
This first Nets exhibition game has some great ball movement. The Irving-Dinwiddie-Prince-Durant-Allen lineup looks like they're playing catch against a befuddled Wizards team.
   2194. GregD Posted: December 13, 2020 at 07:20 PM (#5993946)
This first Nets exhibition game has some great ball movement. The Irving-Dinwiddie-Prince-Durant-Allen lineup looks like they're playing catch against a befuddled Wizards team.


Wonder how they will do against an NBA team
   2195. asinwreck Posted: December 13, 2020 at 07:33 PM (#5993948)
Even here, the defense....could use work. Still, fun to watch.
   2196. NJ in NJ Posted: December 14, 2020 at 10:26 AM (#5994035)
I'm all in on the Talen Horton Tucker hype.
   2197. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 14, 2020 at 02:29 PM (#5994093)
Nabaa also says she helped Howard sign with the Los Angeles Lakers last offseason using her "network and contacts."

Ok, they lost me here.
   2198. tshipman Posted: December 14, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5994102)
Helpful context is that Armica Nabaa is actually the CEO of a sports agency.

She just apparently subcontracts snake collection care.
   2199. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 14, 2020 at 02:47 PM (#5994103)
Somehow #2198 breaks my brain. I think it is mostly "subcontracts snake collection care."
   2200. Rally Posted: December 14, 2020 at 02:50 PM (#5994106)
Nabaa, NBA, to some it's pronounced the same.
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