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Friday, July 22, 2022

New York Mets get Daniel Vogelbach from Pittsburgh Pirates in trade for rookie reliever Colin Holderman

he first-place New York Mets added some much-needed punch at designated hitter Friday, acquiring Daniel Vogelbach from the Pittsburgh Pirates in a trade for rookie reliever Colin Holderman.

The burly Vogelbach, a left-handed hitter and an All-Star in 2019 with Seattle, was batting .228 with 12 home runs, 34 RBIs and a .769 OPS in 75 games for the rebuilding Pirates.

“We wanted to get an offensive player and we did that in landing Vogey,’’ first-year Mets general manager Billy Eppler said. “Somebody that’s really excelled against right-handed pitching. We all kind of know that two-thirds of the pitchers we face are right-handed. So he can be a presence in the order.’‘

The 26-year-old Holderman is 4-0 with a 2.04 ERA and 18 strikeouts in 15 appearances covering 17⅔ innings.

“We’re really excited to work with him,’’ Pirates general manager Ben Cherington said. “He’s already had some success in the major leagues and

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:27 PM | 62 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dan vogelbach, mets, pirates

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   1. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:17 AM (#6087927)
"Burly," heh. That dude is a fat ####### slob. He's listed at 270, and even that raises the question, as Bill James so memorably wrote about Cecil Fielder, of what he'd weigh if he put his other foot on the scale.

He can hit a little bit, though. The Pirates can't be having with that.
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:55 AM (#6087933)
smells SO badly like a Wilpon ownership trade.

don't chase the top guys, just settle.

even worse, Holderman looked really good and the Mets bullpen cup not runneth over.

will look a little better if Dom Smith gets dealt for more than a box of rocks. maybe.

and yes, Vogelbach weighs 270 - with one foot/leg off the scale.

DAMN, I owe PASTE a beverage for repeating my joke outside BBTF the other day...
   3. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 23, 2022 at 02:15 AM (#6087937)
New York Mets get Daniel Vogelbach
...which of course begs the question:


whatever happened to prostetnic ryan vogelsong?
   4. Ron J Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:06 AM (#6087941)
#1 One of my favorite mock quotes from the early days of Prospectus came after the Rays traded Bubba Trammel.

Bubba can hit. We've decided to go in a different direction.
   5. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 10:50 AM (#6087951)
In one of my OOTP sims Vogelbach and Rock Shoulders became HoFers for the Cubs. No matter how many times I ran that sim again I couldn't get them to repeat that success.
   6. Adam Starblind Posted: July 23, 2022 at 11:16 AM (#6087955)
. smells SO badly like a Wilpon ownership trade.

don't chase the top guys, just settle.


Yup, that’s Steve Cohen to a T.
   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 23, 2022 at 01:48 PM (#6087964)
We all kind of know that two-thirds of the pitchers we face are right-handed.
See, that’s the kind of insight that separates Major League GMs from folks like you and me.
   8. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 01:55 PM (#6087966)
Yup, that’s Steve Cohen to a T.

you're happy with this deal?
   9. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 23, 2022 at 02:49 PM (#6087972)
The Mets today acquired Pirates catcher Michael Perez for cash considerations and DFAed Travis Blankenhorn.
   10. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:04 PM (#6087973)
you're happy with this deal?
Would I have preferred a Josh Bell acquisition? Of course but Vogelbach's left-handed bat will do, particularly with an unproductive Dom gone for a while.
   11. Adam Starblind Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:11 PM (#6087975)
. you're happy with this deal?


I don’t care too much, assuming they can replenish the bullpen elsewhere. Like JE, Bell would be better, but it’s not clear to me we have the prospects for a player of that caliber. System falls off significantly after the top handful.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:40 PM (#6087976)
The Mets wanted a bat which is a lot better than needing a 1B. Bell would be something of a waste. And if they paid the price for Bell, there's no way they'd be able to fill that gaping hole at C. Now if they don't fill that gaping hole at C...

Granted, this looks like darn good return for 2 months of Vogelbach. Back in 2016, the Cubs did manage to steal Mike Montgomery from the Ms for the young Vogelbach. Since then he has been sold, claimed off waivers and non-tendered, according to b-r eventually settling for a mere $800,000 from the Pirates. He's the most fungible average bat in the game.
   13. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:53 PM (#6087977)
I don’t care too much, assuming they can replenish the bullpen elsewhere.


To that end, I'd forgotten that Trevor May has been on the IL for a couple of months but is apparently nearing a return in a week or two, so maybe the front office thought that made someone (Holderman, obviously) expendable.


Now, sure, May's numbers before the injury were not good, but he's got a track record so maybe the FO felt more comfortable with him than Holderman, even though Holderman's been pretty good so far.

Not that Eppler asked me of course but I'd have rather kept Holderman-- surely there was some minor league depth piece they could've fleeced the Pirates with. But there are tons of relief pitchers out there, so.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:59 PM (#6087978)
yes, Holderman's 2.04 ERA in 18 IP - sure, sample size issues - was second-best in the Mets current 'pen.

he also was 4-0, so obviously the Mets didn't only send him out there with a bucket and a mop 15 times.

26 years old, or 3 years younger than Vogelbach.

but what also gets me is that there are only 11 or 12 non-catcher hitting slots. as of Aug. 2, my hope would have been that all of those slots would be filled with players better than Vogelbach - who has a disastrous .489 career OPS vs lefties.

so not only does he platoon, you don't ever want him to see a southpaw (.137 AVG, 6 HR in 298 PA vs lefties). the OPS vs LHP in 2022 is even worse - .423, with a comical .156 "slugging" percentage in 75 PA.
   15. Walt Davis Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:59 PM (#6087979)
Maybe the long-rumored (since I thought it up 10 seconds ago) deal of Contreras and David Robertson for everything in the Mets system is about to come to pass.
   16. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6087981)
Granted, this looks like darn good return for 2 months of Vogelbach.
According to B-R, Vogelbach won't be a free agent until after the 2024 season.
   17. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:15 PM (#6087982)
Not that Eppler asked me of course but I'd have rather kept Holderman-- surely there was some minor league depth piece they could've fleeced the Pirates with. But there are tons of relief pitchers out there, so.
FWIW, Eppler claimed that the deal wouldn't have happened if the Mets had insisted on keeping Holderman.
   18. Adam Starblind Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:20 PM (#6087983)
The Mets should be in on Contreras, but I am skeptical they will be. I’d flip Mauricio for him though. His upside is Javy Baez, which should make the Cubs faithful smile.
   19. sanny manguillen Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:34 PM (#6087985)
According to B-R, Vogelbach won't be a free agent until after the 2024 season


He has a 200k buyout. Holderman has been optioned to Indy.
   20. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6087986)
And if they paid the price for Bell, there's no way they'd be able to fill that gaping hole at C. Now if they don't fill that gaping hole at C...

Their best catcher just recently got promoted to AAA and will presumably be called up to NY soon. Contreras would be better, of course, but Alvarez already looks pretty good and wouldn't cost them anything.
   21. Adam Starblind Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:53 PM (#6087987)
Alvarez is hitting about .118 in the two weeks he’s been at AAA. I doubt he’s worse than Nido or Mazeka, but there’s a strong chance he’s not better (yet, of course).
   22. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:58 PM (#6087988)
I doubt he’s worse than Nido or Mazeka, but there’s a strong chance he’s not better (yet, of course).
Today's acquisition of Michael Perez implies that the Mets will attempt to tread water behind the plate until McCann returns.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: July 23, 2022 at 06:56 PM (#6088000)
According to B-R, Vogelbach won't be a free agent until after the 2024 season.

Fair point but the chances of Vogelbach being tendered a contract would seem pretty low, espcially from the 2023 Mets. But they might be able to flip him for the next Holderman.

Alvarez is 20 and has 112 starts at C across 2 seasons in the minors. Looks like an outstanding prospect but unless he's the next Pudge/Bench, he's not ready for the majors yet. 19 passed balls in 112 starts seems like a lot to me but I honestly don't know. (Schwarber had 14 in 70 starts as a benchmark.) His bat might well be ready though.
   24. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:27 PM (#6088005)
Alvarez passed the look test from when I saw him in Hartford a month ago. More importantly than my opinion, Max Scherzer feels the same way.

I would trade him as part of a package for Soto, but not much else.

   25. Pirate Joe Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6088016)
The Mets today acquired Pirates catcher Michael Perez for cash considerations


If the Mets paid more than about $7.37 they got fleeced.

   26. Adam Starblind Posted: July 24, 2022 at 10:24 AM (#6088069)
SI is reporting that the Mets have an offer out to the Nats for Bell. Don’t know why they would acquire both.
   27. Walt Davis Posted: July 24, 2022 at 03:45 PM (#6088092)
More importantly than my opinion, Max Scherzer feels the same way.

Pshaw, I could catch for Scherzer and keep his ERA under 4, 4.50 tops!
   28. jingoist Posted: July 25, 2022 at 11:13 AM (#6088161)
$7.37?
He’s worth every bit of $8.00.
   29. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 25, 2022 at 11:36 AM (#6088167)
It's harder than you'd think to find adequate, cheap above average hitting options (by which I mean 1B/corner outfield types) - Vogelbach (in the preseason) struck me as the best available option of that type under 30. (And has delivered, had a 116 OPS+ with Pittsburgh). Incompetent against lefties (as noted above), slow, subpar at first -- but the power/patience profile works as a platoon bat and pinch hitter, he's a nice option for a contending team to have. I don't hate this for the Mets.
For the Pirates, they got a decent bullpen arm. It's pretty easy, to be honest, to find decent bullpen arms but this one has a lot of future control so I like it for them too.
   30. Walt Davis Posted: July 25, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6088226)
It's harder than you'd think to find adequate, cheap above average hitting options

Well, yes and no. As I noted, since arriving in Seattle, Vogelbach has been sold, waived (and claimed), non-tendered and signed as an FA for 1/$1 with Pittsburgh (suggesting he really didn't have a lot of choices). So hard to find but not in demand -- like me!

Jesus Aguilar is the same guy from the RH side (but having a down year ... somehow he got $7.5 M). Garrett Cooper is better and has never been freely available but still only got 2.5 M in his 2nd arb year. Tyler Naquin was non-tendered and signed for 1/$4. Connor Joe has had a heck of a journey and was freely available after 2020 but the Rox picked him up and haven't let him go yet. Oak has the surprisingly useful Chad Pinder as a pending FA on a 1/$2.7 contract.

To be clear, I agree that in any given offseason, there are only a few average bats that are freely/cheaply available and mid-season those are all under somebody's control -- and it's only a handful of bad teams offering any. But of course mid-season, contenders are not shopping for minor-league FAs and waiver claims. Vogelbach probably is the cheapest in both $ and talent terms.

An interesting guy for the Mets would have been Michael Taylor from the Royals. He's under contract for next year too (not a big one) so it's costlier but it would upgrade the OF defense, allow Canha to be the main DH (while maintaining a solid OF/DH rotation), spread around the Davis/Escobar/Guillorme playing time better.
   31. Walt Davis Posted: July 25, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6088227)
It's harder than you'd think to find adequate, cheap above average hitting options

Well, yes and no. As I noted, since arriving in Seattle, Vogelbach has been sold, waived (and claimed), non-tendered and signed as an FA for 1/$1 with Pittsburgh (suggesting he really didn't have a lot of choices). So hard to find but not in demand -- like me!

Jesus Aguilar is the same guy from the RH side (but having a down year ... somehow he got $7.5 M). Garrett Cooper is better and has never been freely available but still only got 2.5 M in his 2nd arb year. Tyler Naquin was non-tendered and signed for 1/$4. Connor Joe has had a heck of a journey and was freely available after 2020 but the Rox picked him up and haven't let him go yet. Oak has the surprisingly useful Chad Pinder as a pending FA on a 1/$2.7 contract.

To be clear, I agree that in any given offseason, there are only a few average bats that are freely/cheaply available and mid-season those are all under somebody's control -- and it's only a handful of bad teams offering any. But of course mid-season, contenders are not shopping for minor-league FAs and waiver claims. Vogelbach probably is the cheapest in both $ and talent terms.

An interesting guy for the Mets would have been Michael Taylor from the Royals. He's under contract for next year too (not a big one) so it's costlier but it would upgrade the OF defense, allow Canha to be the main DH (while maintaining a solid OF/DH rotation), spread around the Davis/Escobar/Guillorme playing time better.
   32. GregD Posted: July 25, 2022 at 07:01 PM (#6088234)
I was hoping Walt's two posts would be arguing with each other on the yes/no divide
   33. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 25, 2022 at 08:50 PM (#6088244)
An interesting guy for the Mets would have been Michael Taylor from the Royals. He's under contract for next year too (not a big one) so it's costlier but it would upgrade the OF defense, allow Canha to be the main DH (while maintaining a solid OF/DH rotation), spread around the Davis/Escobar/Guillorme playing time better.
Glancing at outfield DRS, the Mets aren't in need of a big boost.
   34. Ron J Posted: July 25, 2022 at 09:38 PM (#6088247)
The Brewers don't appear to have a use for Keston Hiura. This is one I'd defer to the scouts on. I have no idea where to rank him.

Still young but the prospect shine has washed off. Terrible last year. Hitting well this year, but still sent out because they really don't have a spot for him and he still has options. Not much of a defensive player but can fake 3 positions in an emergency.
   35. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 26, 2022 at 04:09 PM (#6088339)

Today's acquisition of Michael Perez implies that the Mets will attempt to tread water behind the plate until McCann returns.

And they'll still be treading water after McCann gets back, most likely. But I agree, with Alvarez in the minors it's hard to justify trading much for another C right now.
   36. Howie Menckel Posted: July 26, 2022 at 04:54 PM (#6088347)
Report today has Mets all-in on Contreras, who is a free agent come this fall.

a rental has no impact on Alvarez, and Mets - who have the worst C OPS in MLB at .505 - would be getting the C OPS leader in Contreras at .847.

McCann is a backup, and Nido and Mazeika are ok as an AAA tandem. not sure what they do after spending 8 bucks on Michael Perez.
   37. Ron J Posted: July 26, 2022 at 05:21 PM (#6088349)
#8 I believe the usual solution is to dump the stuff you don't want in a pile of trash where there are no cameras and drive away quickly -- hoping nobody noticed.
   38. Adam Starblind Posted: July 26, 2022 at 06:26 PM (#6088367)
Looks like the Mets are kicking the tires on a deal for Willson Contreras and Dave Robertson. Not a very Wilpon thing to do.
   39. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 27, 2022 at 01:15 PM (#6088573)
30/31/walt - i agree
   40. Lassus Posted: July 27, 2022 at 01:19 PM (#6088577)
I'd be in favor of a Contreras trade; McCann's fine, but I feel like we need more than fine.
   41. KronicFatigue Posted: July 28, 2022 at 02:13 PM (#6088763)
McCann's fine, but I feel like we need more than fine.


Especially considering expensive it would be to improve anywhere else on the diamond. Whoever winds up not starting between McNeil and Guillmore is a really good utility option. Too good to delegate to the bench, so you'd need a really strong upgrade in order to justify it. DH is being used correctly, IMO, with people rotating in and now Vogelbach as a cheap-ish platoon option.

An upgrade at C and a reliever or two is all the team needs...presuming DeGrom can come back and be a respectable version of himself.
   42. sunday silence (again) Posted: July 28, 2022 at 02:30 PM (#6088765)
DeGrom got bombed yesterday giving up 2 HRs and 3 walks in the second inn vs Syracuse. He seemed to be doing all right in previous starts.
   43. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2022 at 03:20 PM (#6088771)
McCann's fine

his career OPS+ of 84 is fine.

last year it was 75 and this year it is 55 - and I don't expect his aches and pains to just go away this season. he's also age 32 - quite possibly this arc only goes in one (bad) direction at this point.
   44. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 28, 2022 at 03:45 PM (#6088777)
Report today has Mets all-in on Contreras, who is a free agent come this fall.
Possibly in response to the extreme pimping of Contreras @ BBTF, the Sunday Night ESPN crew spent most of an inning a few weeks ago noting that no team has won the World Series with a starting catcher acquired at mid-season. Just FYI.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2022 at 10:06 PM (#6088819)
has a team won a WS with a starting catcher with an OPS+ of 55?

probably, but it may have been a while.
   46. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2022 at 11:11 PM (#6088829)
supposedly Mets add 31-year-old OF Naquin and his 102 career OPS+ from Reds.

has played some CF, but virtually only RF this year.

this only makes sense if Nimmo is shipped out in a package for a future HOFer...

or (sigh)

Anthony DiComo
@AnthonyDiComo
·
3m
One note on the Naquin deal: this is going to result in Jeff McNeil being mostly a second baseman from here on out. Naquin will soak up many of McNeil's reps in left, shifting him more permanently to second (and Luis Guillorme mostly to third).

.............

[Naquin has not played an inning at LF this season.
career starts: 189 CF, 146 RF, 23 LF]
   47. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 29, 2022 at 12:12 AM (#6088843)
Why are you sighing at more depth and less playing time for Escobar?
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: July 29, 2022 at 12:48 AM (#6088848)
I'm ok with less playing time for Escobar vs RHP (amazing, game-costing blunder by Boone on Wednesday to flip Escobar over by bringing in an LHP).

but as with Vogelbach, this ain't 1965. if he and Naquin take up two of 10 or 11 non-C hitting slots, there's precious room left for getting someone who is non-fungible as well. and giving toothless Guillorme (a dismal 12 RBI in 236 PA) more time at 3B doesn't move the needle overall.

"depth" is a pretty antiquated term, on 2022 MLB rosters.
   49. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 29, 2022 at 01:01 AM (#6088849)
Depth is good. Being able to platoon more aggressively is good, Also, people get hurt, and it's good to limit the chances that Travis Jankowski or someone ends up getting many starts. And I don't know why you seem to think the FO is going to think, "We have Tyler Naquin, so now there's no reason to pursue Juan Soto."
   50. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: July 29, 2022 at 01:06 AM (#6088850)
Also also, Luis Guillorme is not the greatest player in the world, but judging him based on his RBI total, as opposed to, say, his .368 OBP or his solid defensive numbers or his positive WAA seems... unreasonable.
   51. Ron J Posted: July 29, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6088858)
#50 It's like the Hall of Fame case I once heard. Higher batting average than Harmon Killebrew. More Home runs than Ty Cobb. More Stolen bases than Ernie Lombardi.

Maybe not those specific players and categories but you get the idea.
   52. Howie Menckel Posted: July 29, 2022 at 09:22 AM (#6088860)
I don't know why you seem to think the FO is going to think, "We have Tyler Naquin, so now there's no reason to pursue Juan Soto."

how many hitters do the Mets have who are not yet out of options?
and if you think the Mets are still "in" on Juan Soto, I can't help you.

(not blaming the Mets for that; I believe the reports that Nats won't trade Soto within their own division.)
   53. Adam Starblind Posted: July 29, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6088863)
I can't figure out what you are saying here. Is it that the Mets are too cheap to go after ... who exactly? JDM is off the table; Bell has the same trade-within-the-division problem; is it Mancini you're upset about? This isn't 2004 when they lowballed Guerrerro and went with the Shane Spencer/Karim Garcia platoon because that was just as good. Criticizing their utility infielder because of his low RBI total makes it sound like you got out on the wrong side of the bed.

Many reports have them targeting Contreras and Robertson. If they pull that off, I hope you come back here and say you had them all wrong.
   54. JJ1986 Posted: July 29, 2022 at 11:25 AM (#6088872)
toothless Guillorme (a dismal 12 RBI in 236 PA)
It's 2022.
   55. JJ1986 Posted: July 29, 2022 at 11:28 AM (#6088873)
Also, Naquin replaces Jankowski on the roster. If they add another non-C bat, presumably he replaces Davis (although I wouldn't mind Vogelbach moving along)
   56. Adam Starblind Posted: July 29, 2022 at 01:39 PM (#6088886)
But Vogelbach replaces Smith. That’s an upgrade by any measure.
   57. Howie Menckel Posted: July 29, 2022 at 06:15 PM (#6088910)
Many reports have them targeting Contreras and Robertson. If they pull that off, I hope you come back here and say you had them all wrong.

I believe I was the first one to post about this at BBTF. And I said that if the Mets pull that off, I'll be impressed and satisfied. but each mini-move makes me wonder if that's all there is. we'll see.

agreed re 55 about Vogelbach, but they gave up Jeremy Holderman - only 18 IP, but a 2.27 FIP (happy now?)

now a decent setup guy in Drew Smith has hit the IL, so they need 2 new arms like he and, well, Holderman. one could be Trevor May who May return next week, but probably still at least one RP short, thanks to that trade.

the Mets went for it in 2015 and got.... Yoenis Cespedes. in unrelated news, they won the pennant as Cespedes put up a 155 OPS+ (at a time when he was a consistent 135 or so OPS+ producer annually).

Naquin and Vogelbach are knives heading for a gun fight.
   58. Adam Starblind Posted: July 29, 2022 at 07:06 PM (#6088912)
The Cespedes trade was completed literally minutes before the trade deadline. Chill.
   59. Howie Menckel Posted: July 29, 2022 at 07:34 PM (#6088914)
I haven't gotten to spend much time as an adult being an irrational fan, alas. so now I am enjoying it immensely !
   60. Banta Posted: July 29, 2022 at 08:16 PM (#6088919)
I’m just hoping that the Vogelbach and Naquin moves are getting replacements in advance for players going in a catcher deal. There was an article that the Cubs were interested in Dom Smith (and Nido?!) for some reason.

I don’t mind the Naquin move in isolation and replacing Jankowski is good, but like I’ve said, catcher is such a glaring position, it’s so far above a 4th outfielder/insurance policy. I don’t really get the Vogelbach move unless Dom is out the door. I personally wouldn’t even worry about platoon DHing… I’ve thought for years that if only there was a DH, JD Davis would be a legitimately pretty good. Now there is one and he’s been inconsistent, though it’s not like they ever gave him the job, they were rotating all season long. I’ve never thought much of Dom, so I wish they would have just played Davis and spelled him when Alonso and others needed the rest. Apparently the Mets have thought differently all year.

I will be disappointed if there is no catcher deal. I mean, again, Mets catchers are struggling to OPS .500 this year. There has to be another option, it doesn’t have to be Contreras.
   61. Adam Starblind Posted: July 29, 2022 at 08:22 PM (#6088920)
Banta sighting!
   62. Banta Posted: July 29, 2022 at 08:28 PM (#6088922)
I’ve been lurking and throwing random rants and bad jokes in the Omnichatter a few times throughout the season. I have to log in once every few years to keep my Primate discount at Target. And Mike Crudale.

…I think I did that wrong. Behold!

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