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Tuesday, October 04, 2022

New York Yankees star Aaron Judge launches 62nd home run, sets AL’s single-season record

The American League has a new single-season home run king.

New York Yankees star Aaron Judge launched his 62nd home run of the season Tuesday on the road against the Texas Rangers, breaking the AL’s record he shared with Roger Maris.

After depositing a Tim Mayza sinker into the Toronto Blue Jays bullpen to tie Maris’ mark last Wednesday, Judge went without a home run during the Yankees’ final regular season homestand—a three-game series against the Baltimore Orioles. Back on the road, Judge who had gone 2 for 9 with two singles in two games against the Rangers through Game 1 of Tuesday’s doubleheader, took Texas pitcher Jesus Tinoco deep in the first inning of the nightcap to reach No. 62.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 04, 2022 at 08:30 PM | 151 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. AndrewJ Posted: October 04, 2022 at 09:01 PM (#6099103)
Roger Maris held the AL record for exactly one-half the entire history of the American League. We would have to wait until someone in the Junior Circuit hit #63 in 2144 for Judge’s record to leave that large of a footprint.

Congratulations anyway, Aaron.
   2. Booey Posted: October 04, 2022 at 09:24 PM (#6099106)
Disappointed that Arraez and the Twins decided to game the system by sitting Luis a few games to preserve his avg and eliminate Judge's shot at the Triple Crown, but at least he made it to 62. That was looking to be in doubt too.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:05 PM (#6099109)
Disappointed that Arraez and the Twins decided to game the system by sitting Luis a few games to preserve his avg and eliminate Judge's shot at the Triple Crown,

Concur, especially since no one gives a crap about the stand alone batting title any more.
   4. Dolf Lucky Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:52 PM (#6099119)
A few random thoughts…

1) Is Aaron Judge the most likable Yankee of the last 25 years? I can’t think of a better choice. Especially if you restrict it to players in the prime of their careers.

2) I find the “AL record” narrative unseemly. In particular when MLB is doing all they can to blur any distinction between the leagues. This is a way to discredit Bonds/McGwire/Sosa.

3) As a neutral observer, I found the HR frenzies in ‘98 and ‘01 more exciting, but that may be a function of my general sense of malaise these days.

4) Someone once wrote that Randy Johnson probably had the best pitching mechanics in baseball history, as he got everything in his enormous frame to do the right thing time and again. I suspect a similar parallel might be in play for Judge. He’s got quite a large strike zone to cover.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 04, 2022 at 11:04 PM (#6099120)
@DannyVietti

Globe Life Field opened in 2020.

It has already hosted:
• Aaron Judge break the AL single-season HR record
• Dodgers win World Series
• Joe Musgrove threw first no-hitter in Padres history
• Corey Kluber threw no-hitter

Of course, none of these are Rangers accomplishments.
   6. John Northey Posted: October 04, 2022 at 11:17 PM (#6099121)
Yawn. So he has the 7th most HR in a season ever. Nice, but all he did today was break out of a tie with Maris for 7th overall. Sosa had more 3 times, McGwire twice, and Bonds has the record of 73. Did they use PED's? Duh, of course they did, that was the era they played in - no testing, no penalties, only a fool wouldn't have used under those conditions if they wanted to win. Anyone who thinks players from that era didn't juice up with something that is now illegal is fooling themselves. Remember, greenies are also banned now and pre-banning were commonly used for decades.
   7. John Northey Posted: October 04, 2022 at 11:24 PM (#6099122)
Even though I'm a Jays fan I do agree that Judge is the most likeable Yankee - his actions around the kid who was given a Judge HR ball by a Jays fan at a game, then met the kid later on. Class act with how he did all of that. Seeing him do well I can live with - still want the Yankees out of the playoffs ASAP, but when he signs some insane deal this winter I won't be annoyed. Hopefully with the Mets so we don't have to play him so much :)
   8. sanny manguillen Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:01 AM (#6099124)
I think just breaking the Yankee record is impressive enough to merit the attention.
   9. baxter Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:02 AM (#6099125)
2. Hey, Ted Williams did the same thing in '41; sat out those last two games to avoid jeopardizing his 400 average; no it it was the opposite.

Who's decision was that to sit him, player or manager? I can understand the player wanting to, if there is a contractual bonus for winning a batting title; but otherwise, it lessens the achievement, just as what Williams did magnifies it. Otherwise, it seems like it's the competitive nature of athletes to want test themselves. Also, wasn't there a situation like this previously w/a close batting race? My dim memory thinks Madlock/Griffey sr. (could be completely wrong). The player who led the race planned to sit out the last game; the trailing player got 2-3 hits to take the lead. Manager tried to put the first player in the game, but it was too late to get enough ab/hits (forget if even got any) to catch up.

Great for Judge; I would have bet substantially at the beginning of the year he wouldn't hit 50. Of course I would also have loved to bet that Pujols would not get 700 or pass Ruth in RBI.

Man, great for them both. Upon reaching #698, Pujols must have outhomered Judge over the same time span (at that point another bet I would have lost).

Great for them both.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:11 AM (#6099126)
Who's decision was that to sit him, player or manager?


He played tonight.
   11. Tin Angel Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:16 AM (#6099127)
Is Aaron Judge the most likable Yankee of the last 25 years?


He's up there for sure...pretty hard to top guys like Jeter or Chapman though.
   12. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:02 AM (#6099130)
1) Is Aaron Judge the most likable Yankee of the last 25 years?


Definitely.

2) I find the “AL record” narrative unseemly. In particular when MLB is doing all they can to blur any distinction between the leagues. This is a way to discredit Bonds/McGwire/Sosa.


This is true; AFAICR no individual league record has ever been celebrated as being meaningful before. As (I think) Walt said in a thread a few days ago, the American League HR record is being used by many as code for the "clean" HR record. That said, isn't doing the right thing (celebrating baseball greatness!) for the wrong reason still better than not doing the right thing at all? The way I see it, fans were excited about baseball numbers (Pujols run to 700 is another example) in a way they haven't been for years, and I honestly wasn't sure if they ever would be again. How can that be a bad thing?

3) As a neutral observer, I found the HR frenzies in ‘98 and ‘01 more exciting, but that may be a function of my general sense of malaise these days.


The summer of '98 was the single most exciting season for me in my 35+ years of fandom. 2001 wasn't as exciting because A) the HR record had just been broken 3 seasons earlier. A record that had stood for only 3 years just isn't as "hallowed" as one that had stood for 37 years, and B) 9/11 had just happened. Americans kinda had other stuff on their minds.

Baseball - and sports in general - will never be as important to society and pop culture as they used to be, so we'll never see a record chase become mainstream water cooler talk the way it was in 1998 (where even non baseball fans were following along), but for me 2022 was the most exciting season in years (and not just because of Judge; Ohtani and Pujols certainly did their part)

4) Someone once wrote that Randy Johnson probably had the best pitching mechanics in baseball history, as he got everything in his enormous frame to do the right thing time and again. I suspect a similar parallel might be in play for Judge.


Most the prettiest swings I've ever seen belong to lefthanders (Junior Griffey is still probably my favorite), but I think Judge is very likely tops on my list for righties (previous contenders for that title included McGwire, Manny Ramirez, and Gary Sheffield).

Yawn. So he has the 7th most HR in a season ever. Nice, but all he did today was break out of a tie with Maris for 7th overall.


Yep, and a Triple Crown would have been the 13th one in the lively ball era. A .400 avg in 1977/1980/1994 would have placed Carew/Brett/Gwynn just 14th on the modern (post 1900) single season list (NeL seasons weren't counted yet, obviously). Yawn, right?
   13. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:15 AM (#6099131)
I think just breaking the Yankee record is impressive enough to merit the attention.


With Maris out of the team record books, we're now down to just 5 franchises whose single season HR record was set before 1997*.

1932 - A's (Jimmie Foxx - 58)
1938 - Tigers (Hank Greenberg - 58)
1949 - Pirates (Ralph Kiner - 54)
1964/1969 - Twins (Harmon Killebrew - 49)
1977 - Reds (George Foster - 52)

* TBF, 4 teams have only existed since the '90's, and even all the '60's and '70's expansion teams have now played half or more of their existence since the '90's

He played tonight.


Probably only cuz he already had the batting title basically locked up. He's wussed out...er, RESTED against good pitchers a couple times in the past week. I'm sure this type of gamesmanship happens fairy regularly during close batting races, but with a potential Triple Crown on the line, this one is particularly irksome.
   14. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:28 AM (#6099132)
My dim memory thinks Madlock/Griffey sr. (could be completely wrong). The player who led the race planned to sit out the last game; the trailing player got 2-3 hits to take the lead. Manager tried to put the first player in the game, but it was too late to get enough ab/hits (forget if even got any) to catch up.
Most recently, that was the scenario when Bernie Williams won the AL Batting Title over Mo Vaughn in 1998. Vaughn had a slight lead, and initially sat out the last game, but after Bernie got 2 or 3 hits to take the lead, Vaughn entered the game but went hitless, IIRC, in a couple of PA, and Bernie won .339 to .337.
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:35 AM (#6099133)
. . . so we'll never see a record chase become mainstream water cooler talk the way it was in 1998 (where even non baseball fans were following along)
What if Judge does it again, perhaps having a full season that matches this season’s post-All-Star Game performance?
   16. baxter Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:21 AM (#6099136)
14. Tanx; I'm as dumb as look, but I did remember it was Griffey Sr./Madlock in 1976; wow 46 years ago:
http://1970sbaseball.mlblogs.com/2014/11/15/the-drama-of-1976-batting-title-races/

I probably would not have made the bet that it was Griffy and Madlock; on a losing streak

Again, great for Judge and Pujols; Pujols' discussion of the fan keeping #700 was completely classy. Looks like his lowest OPS + w/StL will be the 148 the year before he joined the Angels.

It also would be nice to see Trout get #40 and Ohtani pitch a no-no w/a couple of HR's.

12 Re AL HR record, interesting it's been a Yankee; but other than that, who cares? Judge had a fantastic year if he hit 59 (or 50); also on the lefty swings, it was always Billy Williams referred to as the sweetest swing late 60's/early 70's (and he was closed to a triple crown in '72 I think, but Bench won MVP that year). You're also right about '98; on the heels of the strike; that duel really brought back baseball (that and the John Kruk commercial on ESPN, where he is out of focus, then you see who he is).

What a great round of playoffs coming up w/fantastic teams. Watch a wild card team sneak in for it all. What's the equivalent of a Suppan/Weaver starting rotation? It would be great to see Pujols get to the WS and dominate

   17. AndrewJ Posted: October 05, 2022 at 06:03 AM (#6099140)
AFAICR no individual league record has ever been celebrated as being meaningful before.


It was huge news when Willie Mays surpassed Mel Ott as the all-time NL home run champion in the 1960s, and Pete Rose setting the NL hit record in August 1981 got plenty of attention.
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:04 AM (#6099142)
It was huge news when Willie Mays surpassed Mel Ott as the all-time NL home run champion in the 1960s, and Pete Rose setting the NL hit record in August 1981 got plenty of attention.


I thought Aaron passing Musial in hits was also pretty big news. Which might have been why Rose passing him a few years later was noticed.
   19. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:15 AM (#6099143)
I find the “AL record” narrative unseemly. In particular when MLB is doing all they can to blur any distinction between the leagues.

Especially since the leagues technically don't exist anymore, and haven't for more than two decades.
   20. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:55 AM (#6099144)
The strangest ending in a near-triple crown year came in 1953, when Al Rosen led the AL in HR and RBI but lost the batting title to Mickey Vernon by .337 to .336. Vernon went 2 for 4 in the last game of the season to hold onto the lead (Rosen had gone 3 for 5 and had gone ahead for an inning or two), and at the end of the game Vernon's teammates started running into outs and taking weak swings in order to spare him a final turn at bat that might've (they thought) dropped him below Rosen. In the last of the 8th, one player took a huge lead off second base and got picked off, and in the 9th, with Vernon due up 4th and the Nats trailing by 7 runs, the first batter was thrown out inexplicably trying to stretch a single into a double, and the next two batters swung at bad pitches and were retired via a popup and a weak ground ball, ending the game with Vernon on deck.

The irony is that even if Vernon had come up and made an out, he would've still won the batting championship by .3366 to .3356. Someone should've given Vernon's teammates an arithmetic lesson.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:59 AM (#6099145)
The entire baseball world is celebrating Judge's feat, and some people want to denigrate it by talking about irrelevancies like the meaninglessness of leagues, or throwing out suggestions of Judge's possible PED use. I guess it figures.
   22. Ithaca2323 Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:33 AM (#6099148)
Disappointed that Arraez and the Twins decided to game the system by sitting Luis a few games to preserve his avg and eliminate Judge's shot at the Triple Crown.


This is a truly bizarre take.

1. After the games on Oct 1, Arraez was hitting .315 and Judge was hitting .313. There's no way you would just presume that a .315 average is safe at that point, so you can sit him for the next two games and all will be fine. Aaron Judge and the Yankees don't like it? Don't go 1-for-7 in those two games.

2. The Yankees didn't need to pull Judge after his second AB last night. They could have let him take the two PAs Kiner-Falefa got. And had Judge gotten hits in those PAs, he most likely would have come up a 5th time.

3. The Yankees can play Judge today if they are so inclined. If the Twins sit Arraez, Judge can win the batting title going 4-for-4. If the Twins care and decide to play Arraez to prevent that, and he goes say, 0-for-4, Judge could win it by going 2-for-3. Think it sucks that Judge might have to go 4-for-4 today? See points #1 and #2.

4. After the games on Sept. 21st, Judge and Bogarts were hitting .317 and Arraez was hitting .313. Since that time?

Arraez: 12-for-35 (.343)
Judge: 8-for-37 (.216)
Bogarts 5-for-36 (.139)

There was no gaming of the system. Arraez took the batting title from Judge and Bogarts by hitting significantly better than them in the final two weeks of the season. Judge was free to pick up a few more hits along the way.

5. Regardless of how you feel about any of those points, the Twins are under no obligation to help Judge win anything by playing Arraez. There is zero chance the Yankees would be playing Judge today if he was the one with the 4-point lead and 62 HR.
   23. Dolf Lucky Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:48 AM (#6099150)
The entire baseball world is celebrating Judge's feat, and some people want to denigrate it by talking about irrelevancies like the meaninglessness of leagues, or throwing out suggestions of Judge's possible PED use. I guess it figures.


Is this a bit?
   24. jmurph Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:15 AM (#6099152)
Is this a bit?

It's a matter of gospel among several Yankees fan regulars here that the wider baseball world should root for individual Yankees to achieve things, it's very odd and I don't see any other fan grouping do it.
   25. salvomania Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:31 AM (#6099154)
Disappointed that Arraez and the Twins decided to game the system by sitting Luis a few games to preserve his avg and eliminate Judge's shot at the Triple Crown


That is unbelievably weak and poor sportsmanship.

Arraez has played in only two of the Twins' past five games after averaging only a couple games off per month prior to that.

After his 2-for-5 on Sep. 29 pulled him to .315 and gave him some daylight from Judge (they had both rounded off to .313 after Sep. 28), Arraez has only had 9 plate appearances, going 3-for-9, while Judge has had 24 (six team games), going 4-for-18.

A 4-for-4 today would pull Judge up to .31533; Arraez currently sits at .31502.
   26. salvomania Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:41 AM (#6099155)
He's wussed out...er, RESTED against good pitchers a couple times in the past week

The pitchers Arraez sat against in the last few days were the Tigers' Tyler Alexander and Joey Wentz and the White Sox' Johnny Cueto. They *are* MLB pitchers, but nobody would confuse them with Justin Verlander, especially the first two.
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:48 AM (#6099156)
Is there a potential medical reason for Arraez to be sitting out?
   28. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:49 AM (#6099157)
It's a matter of gospel among several Yankees fan regulars here that the wider baseball world should root for individual Yankees to achieve things,

There's a difference between not rooting for / not caring whether a player breaks a record, and introducing irrelevant side points in an effort to diminish its significance.

This has nothing to do with the team. I think the entire state of Florida should be cast out to sea, but that doesn't stop me from marveling at Alcantara's incredible season,** even if I've never rooted for the Marlins in my life.

** Or for hoping that Stanton would break Maris's record when he was playing for the Marlins in 2017

it's very odd and I don't see any other fan grouping do it.

So Giants fans weren't saying that the world should treat Barry Bonds' records as wholly legitimate?
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:52 AM (#6099159)
IMO it was chickenshit to sit Arraez at this stage of the race, but it's also hard to deny that Judge didn't exactly take advantage of the opportunity that Arraez's absence presented.
   30. Mefisto Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:00 PM (#6099161)
The concept of "legitimacy" doesn't apply to records; they are records or they are not. The hits or doubles or triples or HRs were hit. It doesn't matter *for purposes of the record book* if there were conditions favorable to setting the record -- that's *always* true. If not, then Ruth's record was illegitimate because the league wasn't integrated. Maris' record was illegitimate because it was an expansion season. And so on ad infinitum.
   31. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:05 PM (#6099162)
Arraez was battling hamstring problems. How legitimate those are, IDK.
   32. Dolf Lucky Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:05 PM (#6099163)
There's a difference between not rooting for / not caring whether a player breaks a record, and introducing irrelevant side points in an effort to diminish its significance.


So, yes...it is a bit.

This is akin to a politician talking about gaining the respect of "the global community" or a "journalist" on Twitter making some juvenile appeal to authority in an effort to bolster xir latest listicle.
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:09 PM (#6099165)

Is there a potential medical reason for Arraez to be sitting out?


They claimed it was a hamstring issue.
   34. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:29 PM (#6099167)
The concept of "legitimacy" doesn't apply to records; they are records or they are not. The hits or doubles or triples or HRs were hit. It doesn't matter *for purposes of the record book* if there were conditions favorable to setting the record -- that's *always* true. If not, then Ruth's record was illegitimate because the league wasn't integrated. Maris' record was illegitimate because it was an expansion season. And so on ad infinitum.

All that's true when it comes to the record books. In cold print and on BB-Reference, a record is a record is a record. That's just an objective fact.

But it's obviously not true when it comes to how people interpret those records, and that's what the "legitimacy" argument has been all about ever since the BALCO story and others like it started appearing in the headlines. You can say it's a bogus argument, but one look at the HoF's 10-and-gone candidates list tells you that it's an argument that's not going away.
   35. TomH Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6099168)
If I were Arraez, I probably woulda done the same thing. It's been done that way for years.

And really, should we be oogling over "Judge won a triple crown!" if he snuck into it with a very low .311 batting avg, 4th in the majors?
   36. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:39 PM (#6099169)
I find the “AL record” narrative unseemly. In particular when MLB is doing all they can to blur any distinction between the leagues.
Especially since the leagues technically don't exist anymore, and haven't for more than two decades.
The standings, schedule & playoffs are still arranged by league, with the ultimate championship pitting the two leagues against each other. Fans don’t really care about who signs the umpires’ paychecks or other aspects of MLB bureaucracy. Holding a league record is still a big deal, especially for HRs, where Ruth initially set it by a such wide margin, and Maris only eclipsed it on the last day of an extended season that struck many as conveying an unfair advantage. On top of that, the only other players who exceeded 61 home runs did so during the peak PED Era (1998-2001), and were implicated to varying degrees in such shenanigans. Judge’s 62nd HR was a big deal, and it’s a bit ‘unseemly’ to suggest otherwise.
   37. Dolf Lucky Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:46 PM (#6099170)
Judge’s 62nd HR was a big deal, and it’s a bit ‘unseemly’ to suggest otherwise.


Mea culpa. I didn't realize that calling Judge the most likable Yankee in my adult lifetime and suggesting that he has the greatest swing mechanics in baseball history was insufficient. I will use this time for self-reflection and will commit myself to the difficult task of doing better.

And for the record, me calling the AL record narrative unseemly is a comment on the media, not on Judge.
   38. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:47 PM (#6099171)
And really, should we be oogling over "Judge won a triple crown!" if he snuck into it with a very low .311 batting avg, 4th in the majors?
Wouldn’t such criticism be better directed at all the other players in the league who had lower batting averages, rather than the player who had the highest?
   39. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:50 PM (#6099172)
And for the record, me calling the AL record narrative unseemly is a comment on the media, not on Judge.
Why would MLB, and the media, NOT promote such accomplishments. Hyping the product is in their interests when there is a case for doing so.
   40. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:05 PM (#6099178)
#28 - What record did Maris hold in 2017 that Stanton was close to breaking? Since Giancarlo was in the National League, they wouldn't have even had the "American League HR record!" cover to cling to. To celebrate Stanton's potential 62 as a new record, they would've had to flat out call it the "clean" HR record*.

*The irony of course is that massive, muscular sluggers like Stanton and Judge would've been automatically lumped into the 'roiders camp if they'd approached 60 homers 20 years ago, actual evidence be damned (see Sosa, Sammy)
   41. jmurph Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:08 PM (#6099180)
Holding a league record is still a big deal

This strikes me as obviously not true, but I'm open to a counter argument. I genuinely can't think of a single other league record, and honestly didn't even connect Bonds/McGwire/Sosa all being NL guys until the Judge talk over the past few weeks.
   42. Astroenteritis Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:10 PM (#6099181)

Congrats to Judge. I thought his chase of Maris was very enjoyable, and significant. The only thing him being a Yankee added, in my opinion, was that he was chasing Ruth and Maris, who were Yankees, too. Anyway, he does seem a likeable guy, and I can't imagine him playing for any team but the Yankees. Could he really sign elsewhere?
   43. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:12 PM (#6099182)
#35 - A Triple Crown is a Triple Crown. Robinson won his with a .316 batting average. Chuck Klein and Joe Medwick won with 28 and 31 homers. Even Ted Williams only had 36 and 32 homers during his TC seasons. They all count the same.
   44. Mefisto Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:19 PM (#6099184)
You can say it's a bogus argument


I sure can. It's just a backdoor way of saying that "this record isn't legitimate". Dressing it up as "that's just my interpretation, dude" changes nothing.
   45. Rally Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:24 PM (#6099185)
I hope Judge goes 4-4 today. It’ll be interesting to see how much he plays. Boone probably wants to get him out early.
   46. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:37 PM (#6099186)
The only thing him being a Yankee added, in my opinion, was that he was chasing Ruth and Maris, who were Yankees, too.
And also Yankee right fielders. Not sure there are any other same franchise/same position trios that held similar records for such a long time.
   47. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6099187)
But it's obviously not true when it comes to how people interpret those records, and that's what the "legitimacy" argument has been all about ever since the BALCO story and others like it started appearing in the headlines. You can say it's a bogus argument, but one look at the HoF's 10-and-gone candidates list tells you that it's an argument that's not going away.

I sure can. It's just a backdoor way of saying that "this record isn't legitimate". Dressing it up as "that's just my interpretation, dude" changes nothing.


Bogus or not, what's "backdoor" about it? Saying that a record is illegitimate is saying that---wait for it---the record is illegitimate. It's not as if they're hiding their sentiments.
   48. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:40 PM (#6099189)
I can't imagine him playing for any team but the Yankees. Could he really sign elsewhere?

Only if he gives Steinbrenner and Cashman a week's advance notice so that they can have time to go under witness protection.
   49. salvomania Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:44 PM (#6099190)
Carl Yastrzemski won a Triple Crown when he hit .301.

Go figure.
   50. Mefisto Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:48 PM (#6099192)
Between 34 and 47, you're arguing in circles.
   51. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 01:50 PM (#6099193)
#49 - *PEDANTRY ALERT!!!*

Yaz hit .326 when he won the Triple Crown in 1967. He won another batting title the following year (the infamous 1968, of course) with that jawdropping .301 avg.
   52. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6099194)
The irony of course is that massive, muscular sluggers like Stanton and Judge would've been automatically lumped into the 'roiders camp if they'd approached 60 homers 20 years ago, actual evidence be damned

Precisely. Every other player with more than 61 HR in a season has PED taint (and it's an open question whether Maris was using too....). Near as I can tell, the only reason it's off limits to wonder about Judge is because we're all supposed to believe the Yankees are the only embodiment of everything good and wholesome about Major League Baseball.
   53. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:16 PM (#6099196)
It's just a backdoor way of saying that "this record isn't legitimate".
IMHO, Bonds record is legitimate, but one does have to admit that it is controversial. Easily the most controversial MLB record, judging by the sentiments repeatedly expressed here & elsewhere, as well as the continuing debate about Hall of Fame status. Acknowledging that the controversy adds to Judge’s accomplishment for many is just accepting reality.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:17 PM (#6099197)
Between 34 and 47, you're arguing in circles.

Or maybe you're just having trouble accepting the fact that not everyone views certain records with the same uncritical eye that you do. People are allowed to interpret records differently, even while accepting the fact that they're still the records.

-----------

Yaz hit .326 when he won the Triple Crown in 1967. He won another batting title the following year (the infamous 1968, of course) with that jawdropping .301 avg.

Quite right. What's interesting is that along with that .301 BA came a 171 OPS+, second only to Willie McCovey's 174 among all MLB players, well above the likes of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Frank Robinson.
   55. Darren Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:22 PM (#6099198)
Most recently, that was the scenario when Bernie Williams won the AL Batting Title over Mo Vaughn in 1998. Vaughn had a slight lead, and initially sat out the last game, but after Bernie got 2 or 3 hits to take the lead, Vaughn entered the game but went hitless, IIRC, in a couple of PA, and Bernie won .339 to .337.


I thought I would have remembered this so I looked it up. According to BBref, they entered the day with Bernie leading by a fraction of a point. Vaughn started the game (1:07 start time), and went 2-4, then left in the 8th. Bernie also started (1:40 game) and went 2-2. Maybe you're thinking of something else?
   56. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:29 PM (#6099199)
*duplicate post*
   57. Darren Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:32 PM (#6099200)
The situation like this that I remember was 1986 when Wade Boggs sat out the last series of the season to rest an injury for the postseason. He was leading Mattingly .357 to .350 at the time. Mattingly went 8-19 the rest of the way, reaching .352. Boggs would have had to go 2-16 for Mattingly to pass him.

And you know the rest of the story: Boggs rested, dominated in the postseason, and the Red Sox won the World Series. The end.
   58. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: October 05, 2022 at 02:40 PM (#6099201)
Judge is only the most likeable Yankee in 25 years because Mel Hall falls outside of this range. As does Luis Polonia and Steve Howe.

The summer of '98 was the single most exciting season for me in my 35+ years of fandom. 2001 wasn't as exciting because A) the HR record had just been broken 3 seasons earlier. A record that had stood for only 3 years just isn't as "hallowed" as one that had stood for 37 years, and B) 9/11 had just happened. Americans kinda had other stuff on their minds.


That summer was my first year at E$PN. We had a guy who called in sick a lot; we had a physical chart printed up. He was alarmingly neck-and-neck with McGwire, but got to "play" for another few months after the season. He ended up with 84 to take it going away.

The rumor is that his wife, who worked in a doctor's office, arranged a series of notes for him.

   59. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:26 PM (#6099207)
#52 - Eh, I think Judge being a Yankee helped the hype train a bit, but only because Ruth and Maris were also Yankee RF's, so the symmetry was interesting. But if it was say, Mike Trout making a run at 62, I still think we'd have heard plenty about the "American League record!" chase. I really think Stanton being in the NL and having no cover for calling it the "clean" HR record is the main reason his season didn't get more hype.

Also, with the trends of the game being what they are, virtually all single season and career records appear out of reach, which probably helped a 7th place single season HR total and a 4th place career total (Pujols) get more attention than they normally would. Baseball fans were starved for record chases and eager to get excited about something. It had been a while.
   60. tonywagner Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:26 PM (#6099208)
On the batting race / triple crown front:

Judge isn't in the lineup today, for game 162.

Arraez is, and batting leadoff.
   61. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:37 PM (#6099211)
On the batting race / triple crown front:

Judge isn't in the lineup today, for game 162.

Arraez is, and batting leadoff.


Are those who were disappointed in Arraez and the Twins upthread feeling similarly about Judge's lack of interest in the TC?
   62. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:42 PM (#6099212)
#61 - Yes, actually. I was a bit annoyed that the Yankees pulled Judge yesterday after hitting #62, too. Another hit or two could've really helped his chances.
   63. Darren Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:59 PM (#6099214)
I'm having a hard time seeing 62 as a not exciting number. Yes, it's helped by the steroids purists, the AL record is a bit manufactured, and the Yankee mystique multiplies the hype. But still, despite all of that, this feels historic to me. Only a few people have hit this many, the last time was 20 years ago during a very different era, and Judge is doing it as part of an amazing season. It's really amazing and deserves a lot of hype and excitement.
   64. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:07 PM (#6099217)
The concept of "legitimacy" doesn't apply to records; they are records or they are not.


Unless it's suddenly determined that this guy (and not this guy) has the highest season batting average of the 20th century, because reasons.
   65. Baldrick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:25 PM (#6099220)
It's fine for people to be excited about it. It's not fine for them to tell me I should be excited (or even benignly tolerant) about anything good happening related to the Yankees ever.
   66. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:30 PM (#6099223)
Maybe you're thinking of something else?
Well, it was quite long ago (how’d that happen?), but apparently my memory was off by a fair bit. Perhaps Vaughn went hitless in his first 2 AB, while Bernie went 2-for-2, giving rise to my coming from behind misrecollection? I seem to recall a bit of controversy when Bernie came out of the game, due to some not being aware that he had a large enough lead that a final PA would have been meaningless. Going down to the last game for a batting title, or a milestone such as Williams hitting .400, is quite something.
   67. Walt Davis Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:35 PM (#6099224)
And also Yankee right fielders. Not sure there are any other same franchise/same position trios that held similar records for such a long time.

Ruth had the career K record from 1928-1963. It was broken by Mantle, holding it from 1964-1977. It was broken by Stargell who held it until 1981 when it was taken over by Reggie who still holds it today. Of course Reggie played for other teams but is probably most identified with the Yanks. So other than 4 seasons of Stargell, a "Yankee" has held that record for nearly 100 years. Unless Miggy plays next year and Ks 567 times, Reggie's record is safe for a while. Stanton is the only guy with much chance and he's still 900 Ks behind. Because of their contracts, Freeman and Trout have a shot.

Arguably, the career K record is a bit less glamorous than the HR record.
   68. TomH Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:51 PM (#6099228)
You know why Judge got 62 home runs?

Batting mostly 2nd, some 1st, in 2022; versus batting mostly 3rd, some 2nd, in 2021.

That is about 16 extra PA.

Which is 1-2 home runs.

He would had only 60 or 61 if they wanted him to hit with more runners on base!

(ducks)
   69. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:52 PM (#6099229)

Also, with the trends of the game being what they are, virtually all single season and career records appear out of reach, which probably helped a 7th place single season HR total and a 4th place career total (Pujols) get more attention than they normally would. Baseball fans were starved for record chases and eager to get excited about something. It had been a while.


That is a good part, I mean we look for patterns, records and milestones and will create a story if there is none. Next year it's going to be all about Miguel Cabrera. Maybe in three years we are talking about Verlander for 300 wins etc... We are constantly looking for stories, just because the story might not be quite as great as a previous one, doesn't mean we are going to ignore it.
   70. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2022 at 05:29 PM (#6099239)
re: #s 59 & 69, FanGraphs has an article addressing that aspect of Judge’s season:
Even without that gap between Judge and Kyle Schwarber, though, this season would be an all-timer. The great arrow of baseball time points inexorably towards more uniformity and more talent. It’s a professional game; even the up-and-down bullpen arms and utility infielders of today work year-round at their craft, honing their bodies and minds in pursuit of fame and riches. In a sport where we measure success relative to a league baseline, that means it’s harder than ever to stand out.

This arc of progress isn’t some new phenomenon. Stephen Jay Gould, the late and celebrated biologist, wrote about it in 1986, though he framed it in terms of the extinction of .400 hitters. Standing out from the field simply gets harder with every generation because even the lesser lights of baseball now search for every possible edge.
Much more at link.
   71. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 05, 2022 at 05:54 PM (#6099244)
What if Judge does it again, perhaps having a full season that matches this season’s post-All-Star Game performance?


81 games at Fenway should help him.
   72. VCar Posted: October 05, 2022 at 06:19 PM (#6099250)
Nothing big to add here, except that I'm a Yankee hater that was pulling for Judge. He seems like a good guy.
   73. Cooper Nielson Posted: October 05, 2022 at 07:58 PM (#6099266)
Judge is only the most likeable Yankee in 25 years because Mel Hall falls outside of this range. As does Luis Polonia and Steve Howe.

But Chad Curtis sneaks in there!
   74. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:06 PM (#6099270)
was Posada or Bernie considered unlikeable? overrated maybe(in Bernies case) but not sure about the likeability.

Edit:Posada was a catcher, almost by definition he is probably considered unlikeable by opposition.
   75. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:07 PM (#6099280)
The only Yankee from the late 90's who wasn't exactly loved for his personality was (coke to Cooper) Chad Curtis, and maybe to a lesser extent Jeff Nelson. Later there was Clemens, Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown.

Bernie was always considered one of the most likeable Yankees, maybe even at the top of the list. He was kind of like Judge with a lesser level of talent. Jeter was the most openly liked and respected by opponents, but there were always undercurrents concerning his unwillingness to shift positions when a superior defensive SS showed up in ARod.
   76. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:23 PM (#6099283)
Nobody liked O'Neil, and very few fans of other teams like Tino. And Jeter was universally reviled by the stat community and anyone who had any sense of douche bag/phony detector.
   77. The Duke Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:57 PM (#6099291)
As far as I'm concerned 62 is far more legit than the Bonds, Sosa, McGwire records. I don't know how anyone can think that their records are nearly as meaningful as Maris and Judge. I don't dispute that their numbers are in the record books, but I think Judge's achievement is far more meaningful in the context of modern baseball.

So congrats to Aaron, who also seems to be a great guy.
   78. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:20 PM (#6099292)
81 games at Fenway should help him.

More than 81 games at Bronx Little League Park?
   79. cardsfanboy Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:27 PM (#6099293)
As far as I'm concerned 62 is far more legit than the Bonds, Sosa, McGwire records. I don't know how anyone can think that their records are nearly as meaningful as Maris and Judge. I don't dispute that their numbers are in the record books, but I think Judge's achievement is far more meaningful in the context of modern baseball.


And now the roid conversation starts. They are legit because nobody cared at the time, not the league, not the players association, and certaintly not the fans.

Judge benefits from technology that makes the roids of the past look like ice cream in comparison, better health regimens because of the roid system, better understanding due to statcast etc. I don't knock Ted Williams .400 because he did it pre-integration (more or less) not Ruth because of any number of factors etc. And nobody really thinks Judge is clean, they hope he is, but everyone with any semblance of an iq is still having that voice in the back of their head questioning it.

To pretend that Judge is obviously clean is just a ridiculous assumption. You hope he is, but it's not something that anyone really should feel they know with certainty (same with pretty much any player out there) When you paint that clean label on a player, all you are doing is setting yourself up for disappointment potentially. Instead just enjoy the accomplishment, and forget about making arguments on legitimacy.
   80. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:28 PM (#6099294)
Nobody liked O'Neill

You mean no opponent liked O'Neill as long as he was an opponent. Screaming at umpires and kicking water coolers doesn't make one's teammates dislike you. He and Cone also make one of baseball's best color commentator teams, full of insights and objective analysis without any particular home team bias. I get why Yankees haters wouldn't like him, but they're hardly objective about things like this.

The one who surprised me was Jeff Nelson. When I heard him broadcasting a Mariners game I couldn't believe that this genial laid back commentator was the same Jeff Nelson I used to see regularly engaging in headhunting and other generally frowned on activities. Kind of like Eckersley, whom I always thought of as a redass supreme, but in the broadcasting booth he doesn't seem that way at all. Of course in all of these cases it might all just be an act, who knows?
   81. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:29 PM (#6099295)
More than 81 games at Bronx Little League Park?

Judge's home run totals: 30 home, 32 road.
   82. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:36 PM (#6099296)
I get why Yankees haters wouldn't like him, but they're hardly objective about things like this.


No, it's not just Yankee haters. Everyone hated him except Yankee fans. And for good reason.
   83. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:37 PM (#6099297)
And now the roid conversation starts. They are legit because nobody cared at the time, not the league, not the players association, and certaintly not the fans.

You can reasonably argue that the roiders' records are legit, but the fact that nobody cared at the time about roids** doesn't mean much one way or the other, any more than the fact few White people in 1927 cared about segregated baseball means that Ruth didn't benefit enormously by not having to face Black pitchers instead of the bottom of the barrel White pitchers whom those Black pitchers would have replaced.

** Which isn't really true; they just didn't know the details. Once those details came out, a lot of former fanboys cared a lot. Peoples' opinions are allowed to change if new information is learned.
   84. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:42 PM (#6099298)
I get why Yankees haters wouldn't like him, but they're hardly objective about things like this.

No, it's not just Yankee haters. Everyone hated him except Yankee fans. And for good reason.


O'Neill was one of a zillion redasses who've graced MLB with their presence over the years, who complain about umpires and show emotion when they make an out. Hating a player for something as trivial as that says more about the hater than it does about the player. And I'd like to see some concrete evidence that "everyone....except Yankees fans" hated him. A forum with at most half a dozen actual Yankees fans on it isn't exactly a big sample size.
   85. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 10:58 PM (#6099300)
O'Neill was one of a zillion redasses who've graced MLB with their presence over the years, who complain about umpires and show emotion when they make an out.


Well, someone is certainly "hardly objective" on the matter.

   86. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:03 PM (#6099302)
Well, someone is certainly "hardly objective" on the matter.

By that you mean everyone, both of us included.
   87. SoSH U at work Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:13 PM (#6099304)
By that you mean everyone, both of us included.


No, I meant you. CFB is not a Yankee hater. His allegiances are right there in his handle.

You've been told by countless posters at this site, guys who were not Sox fans or O's or Jays fans, that O'Neill is especially disliked, that he's not seen as a run of the mill redass. You simply refuse to believe it.
   88. Booey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 11:31 PM (#6099308)
I'm not a Yankee fan or a Yankee hater, and I'm confident that yes, everyone hated Paul O'Neill. Probably even his mother. He was a d!ck (and most likely still is).
   89. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 06, 2022 at 01:19 AM (#6099317)
More than 81 games at Bronx Little League Park?
Judge's home run totals: 30 home, 32 road.
Check the Yankee Stadium Park Factors, too. 101 Batting; 100 Pitching. Pretty neutral, and 7th in the League in both categories. And if you check the spray chart for Judge’s HRs, they ranged from the left field pole area to straight away right field; he didn’t hit any down the RF line to the shortest part of the Stadium. In fact, Judge set a Statcast Era record for the total distance of his HRs this season.
   90. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 06, 2022 at 07:33 AM (#6099320)
You've been told by countless posters at this site, guys who were not Sox fans or O's or Jays fans, that O'Neill is especially disliked, that he's not seen as a run of the mill redass. You simply refuse to believe it.

I don't believe it or disbelieve it. I simply don't take much stock in hearsay that's backed by little or no evidence other than what we saw of his opinions of umpires and water coolers. I've seen no quotes from his teammates who've backed the BTF consensus opinion. Provide a few of those and I might take these opinions a bit more seriously, a bit beyond the "people are saying" level that seems to have been the only response I've seen so far.

He's not Bernie Williams or Aaron Judge, but he's also far from Jim Leyritz or Kevin Brown.

----------------

I'm not a Yankee fan or a Yankee hater, and I'm confident that yes, everyone hated Paul O'Neill. Probably even his mother. He was a d!ck (and most likely still is).

Well, confidence is a kind of evidence. (smile)
   91. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 06, 2022 at 07:36 AM (#6099321)
More than 81 games at Bronx Little League Park?



His pop ups will leave in LF. Some line drives that would go out in most parks won't at Fenway, so it may be a wash there.

He's talked about how he loves hitting at Fenway, how he respects the fans that show up to the park. It could be a negotiating ploy, or it could be that he really wants to come here.

I would like to see it. Sign him, sign Devers, sign Rodon, and let's go.
   92. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2022 at 08:51 AM (#6099324)
we'll start with you are right to an extent, O'Neil was probably not hated by his own team. The everybody hated him comment was over the top, but meant to say every non-Yankee fan hated him. (and even that is of course an exaggeration, designed to show that he's generally not liked by anyone outside of his own fanbase)

Considering that the concept of dislike/like was about fans of other teams liking Yankees, my comment was legit. You claimed that
The only Yankee from the late 90's who wasn't exactly loved for his personality was (coke to Cooper) Chad Curtis, and maybe to a lesser extent Jeff Nelson. Later there was Clemens, Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown.

Bernie was always considered one of the most likeable Yankees, maybe even at the top of the list. He was kind of like Judge with a lesser level of talent. Jeter was the most openly liked and respected by opponents, but there were always undercurrents concerning his unwillingness to shift positions when a superior defensive SS showed up in ARod.


And I just pointed out that, O'Neil and Tino Martinez and Jeter were not universally liked. The original comment in post seven was a Toronto fan saying that Judge was a likeable guy, another poster also mentioned it, both from the viewpoint of being non-Yankee fans. O'Neil was nearly universally despised outside of New York. Not just disliked, but actively hated on. About the only guy from the 90's that is liked outside of New York might be Bernie as you mentioned. Even there you have the stat head community that view him as overrated and might have blamed him for that (it's not fair of course, but it is what it is) Tino is more the hardass dislike that you imagine that people have with O'Neil. O'neil was just an ass.
   93. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:07 AM (#6099327)
I lost my hatred of Yankees in 2004. But ask me about the 70s! Munson, Piniella, Nettles, Reggie (who was the least hated, by me), those 4 guys were enough to raise my blood pressure. The rest of the team were just ballplayers who played ball, without the edge the guys I mentioned had. And with Billy Martin, and Steinbrenner, there was nothing to like there. They were arrogant.
   94. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:19 AM (#6099330)
we'll start with you are right to an extent, O'Neil was probably not hated by his own team. The everybody hated him comment was over the top, but meant to say every non-Yankee fan hated him. (and even that is of course an exaggeration, designed to show that he's generally not liked by anyone outside of his own fanbase)

And I just pointed out that, O'Neil and Tino Martinez and Jeter were not universally liked. The original comment in post seven was a Toronto fan saying that Judge was a likeable guy, another poster also mentioned it, both from the viewpoint of being non-Yankee fans. O'Neil was nearly universally despised outside of New York. Not just disliked, but actively hated on. About the only guy from the 90's that is liked outside of New York might be Bernie as you mentioned. Even there you have the stat head community that view him as overrated and might have blamed him for that (it's not fair of course, but it is what it is) Tino is more the hardass dislike that you imagine that people have with O'Neil. O'neil was just an ass.

None of this contradicts what I've said, or answers the question I posed.

I've never disputed the idea that O'Neill was disliked, or even hated, by many or most non-Yankees fans. What I dispute is that that hatred had any basis in fact beyond what they saw on the field and in the dugout. Screaming at umpires and kicking water coolers is the mark of a redass, but not necessarily an ass. It's the sort of publicly exhibited temper that understandably makes opposing fans dislike or "hate" a player, but beyond that it's not much evidence of anything at all.

As for the opinions of the stathead community, they're 100% irrelevant if they're directed at the players. Their arguments should be directed at the writers and others who overrate (or underrate) players, not at the players themselves. Jeter may or may not be an ass, but he didn't vote himself all those questionable Gold Gloves.
   95. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:32 AM (#6099332)
I lost my hatred of Yankees in 2004. But ask me about the 70s! Munson, Piniella, Nettles, Reggie (who was the least hated, by me), those 4 guys were enough to raise my blood pressure. The rest of the team were just ballplayers who played ball, without the edge the guys I mentioned had. And with Billy Martin, and Steinbrenner, there was nothing to like there. They were arrogant.

You should read Roger Angell's article on Bob Gibson.** Gibson makes the point that arrogance is absolutely necessary for a player to rise to the top. The point of the game is to win, not to make friends. The Judges of the world are more the exception than the rule, and many of the other ostensibly "likeable" players (like Jeter) are often just products of talented PR handlers who've made them into valuable brands.

The Red Sox of the 70's had one arrogant redass in Carlton Fisk, but somehow I always admired him, even as a Yankees fan. The one I really disliked was Yaz, but even there it was mostly because I thought he was way overrated after about 1970, when he became a good but not all that great player who was living off his earlier reputation. Seeing him make the final out in the Bucky Dent game with the tying and winning runs on base was almost as sweet as the win itself.

** If you're not a New Yorker subscriber, you can read the article by clicking on the Toggle Reader icon on the far right of the URL line.
   96. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:43 AM (#6099334)
Jeter is disliked because he's such a clear phony. And he has the personality of a wet napkin. And you are looking for an argument beyond the discussion. The discussion is about Yankee likeable players and how Judge is the first one in 25 years according to one or two posters in this thread. Likeable doesn't have anything to do with your actions and whether they are justify to not like you, it's literally just about whether fans of the other team like you. Nobody likes Paul O'Neil from the opposite side of the dugout, whether it's fans, or the other team. He's a whiny little crybaby who basically throws a tantrum every time the world didn't bow to him. (again an exaggeration of course, but the point still stands) has he ever actually been called out on a strike without giving the ump grief? (and again an exaggeration) Basically the only person from that 90's team that is 'likeable' might be Bernie, beyond that, contrary to your statement, most of the rest of the team wasn't liked outside of New York, and gave off that New York vibe.

I just brought up the 1999 Yankee roster(chose that because it's between 3 WS wins) and among the starting position players bb-ref lists you have Bernie and Ledee(whoever that was) as the only remotely likeable person of the top 15 pa players. (Maybe Brosius wasn't disliked, I can't remember) and among the pitchers, you have a couple (El Duque, Fat toad and Rivera) the point is that no, the mid to late 90's Yankees weren't likeable.
   97. SandyRiver Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:53 AM (#6099337)
81 games at Fenway should help him.


More than 81 games at Bronx Little League Park?


Judge SLG for 2022:
Season: .686
At home: .664
At Fenway: .581
SSS, but still worth noting.

Ruth [didn't] benefit enormously by not having to face Black pitchers instead of the bottom of the barrel White pitchers whom those Black pitchers would have replaced.


Countering that somewhat is that the MLB of the 1920s had the lion's share of elite American male athletes, with perhaps prizefighting in a distant 2nd place. Given the early-age financial/educational opportunities now offered for various sport participants, one might wonder how many would-be pitchers are playing QB, point guard, maybe even skating in the NHL - guys with the strength and coordination to fire that black disk 100 mph might also be able to toss a baseball nearly as fast. I don't think that overcomes the advantage of playing in a pre-integration MLB, but it lessens the benefit somewhat.
   98. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 06, 2022 at 10:47 AM (#6099342)
Jeter is disliked because he's such a clear phony. And he has the personality of a wet napkin. And you are looking for an argument beyond the discussion. The discussion is about Yankee likeable players and how Judge is the first one in 25 years according to one or two posters in this thread. Likeable doesn't have anything to do with your actions and whether they are justify to not like you, it's literally just about whether fans of the other team like you. Nobody likes Paul O'Neil from the opposite side of the dugout, whether it's fans, or the other team. He's a whiny little crybaby who basically throws a tantrum every time the world didn't bow to him. (again an exaggeration of course, but the point still stands) has he ever actually been called out on a strike without giving the ump grief? (and again an exaggeration) Basically the only person from that 90's team that is 'likeable' might be Bernie, beyond that, contrary to your statement, most of the rest of the team wasn't liked outside of New York, and gave off that New York vibe.

"He isn't liked because he isn't liked" is a tautology, not an argument. You're simply repeating points I've already conceded. It's hardly news to me that O'Neill wasn't his opponents' favorite player, but objectively how was he much different than "Manny being Manny"? Outsized personalities are seldom liked outside of their team's fan base. (Obvious Supreme Example: Barry Bonds, beloved by statheads and Giants fans and virtually nobody else.)

And FWIW the '96 and '98 teams weren't universally disliked outside of New York. In fact there were more than a few articles at the time that made this very point. Granted, these two teams were exceptions, and once the core of the team resumed being built around expensive free agents (Clemens / Mussina / Giambi / A-Rod / etc.), it was back to normal.
   99. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 06, 2022 at 10:56 AM (#6099344)
Countering that somewhat is that the MLB of the 1920s had the lion's share of elite American male athletes, with perhaps prizefighting in a distant 2nd place. Given the early-age financial/educational opportunities now offered for various sport participants, one might wonder how many would-be pitchers are playing QB, point guard, maybe even skating in the NHL - guys with the strength and coordination to fire that black disk 100 mph might also be able to toss a baseball nearly as fast. I don't think that overcomes the advantage of playing in a pre-integration MLB, but it lessens the benefit somewhat.

You have to view MLB integration in stages. It's not simply pre-1947 vs everything since then. African American numbers surged in the late 50's NL and in the late 60's AL, but while today their numbers have dwindled, in terms of percentages of pre-1947 ineligible players, MLB today is more integrated than ever, packed with Asians and dark skinned Latinos who never would've made it into organized baseball prior to 1947, and even after that they wouldn't have been welcomed by many teams for another decade or more.

   100. nick swisher hygiene Posted: October 06, 2022 at 10:58 AM (#6099345)
I'd say Jeter is second-order dislikable: the basic persona is not such a big deal, but the way Jeter fans express their admiration for Jeter is exceptionally annoying.
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