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Tuesday, January 26, 2021

No new Hall electees for first time since 1960

For the first time since 1960—and just the seventh time since the first election in 1936—the National Baseball Hall of Fame will not have a new group of electees in 2021. Yet because the Class of 2020’s induction was pushed back a year by the coronavirus pandemic, there will still be entrants welcomed into the hallowed Hall this summer.

The Baseball Writers’ Association of America announced Tuesday night on MLB Network that none of the 25 players on the 2021 ballot received at least 75 percent of votes—the threshold required for entry. Starting pitcher Curt Schilling came closest at 71.1 percent.

This is the first time since 2013 that the BBWAA did not elect anyone. With the Era Committee elections having been postponed until next winter because of the pandemic, 2021 has pitched a shutout.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:30 PM | 610 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. JRVJ Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:41 PM (#6001913)
2013 says hi (as does 1996).
   2. Baldrick Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:52 PM (#6001919)
Schilling has requested to removed from the ballot for his 10th year.

El. Oh. El.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:52 PM (#6001920)
1996 and 2013 had Veterans Committee inductees. This year's class does not.
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:54 PM (#6001922)
am told 2013 and 1996 also have just "blocked" JRVJt

to elaborate on post 2:

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
·
18m
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''

[that's blue check mark and 271,000 followers for Nightengale. it's no joke]
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 06:58 PM (#6001924)
I wonder if he's decided that being a victim is better for his brand.
   6. LargeBill Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:03 PM (#6001927)
Removing a guy getting 70% has to help the remaining candidates, no?
   7. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:03 PM (#6001928)
So Jim Edmonds was one and done but Torii Hunter is going to see a second ballot? I guess when there are no clear non-roiders available, other candidates look more appealing.
   8. TJ Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:05 PM (#6001929)
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''


Not sure this is a good idea by Schilling. The Vets are going to be voting on whether they want him as one of their fraternity. It seems to me it would be easier for them to say that they do not want someone who has acted like Schilling in their midst. It could wind up something like the Shoeless Joe line in Field of Dreams, “Ty Cobb (insert Curt Schilling in place of Cobb) wanted to play, but none of us could stand the son-of-a-##### when we were alive, so we told him to stick it!”
   9. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:10 PM (#6001931)
Victimhood as an art form.
   10. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:16 PM (#6001936)
dan haren @ithrow88 6m

According to twittter I was NOT elected to the baseball hall of fame. They will tell me I’m taken off the ballot next year, but I’d first like to announce that I’m REMOVING MYSELF from next years ballot and any going forward. #0%
   11. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:22 PM (#6001938)
i guess in the RPG that is Curt’s life, he has now collected enough tears to visit the snowflake armory and upgrade his victimhood to the insufferable level.
   12. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:25 PM (#6001940)
Not sure this is a good idea by Schilling. The Vets are going to be voting on whether they want him as one of their fraternity. It seems to me it would be easier for them to say that they do not want someone who has acted like Schilling in their midst.
Do we have any reason to think they would care, unless he was an ass to a lot of them personally? (Which I haven't heard as a narrative.)

Legit question though, I really don't know. Maybe some influential HOFers have (politely or otherwise) implied that they disapprove of his post-career trajectory?
   13. puck Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6001941)
What do you suppose Manny Ramirez's percentage would be if he hadn't tested positive multiple times? Are there substantially more people withholding their vote for him for that reason compared to Bonds or Clemens?

Edit: Sosa's way down there.
   14. puck Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:27 PM (#6001942)
So Jim Edmonds was one and done but Torii Hunter is going to see a second ballot? I guess when there are no clear non-roiders available, other candidates look more appealing.


Wow. I didn't know Edmonds was one and done.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:27 PM (#6001943)
Obviously it depends on the makeup of the committee, but Schilling was less liked by the baseball community than the writers.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:30 PM (#6001944)
13. If he failed zero tests he’d be in. If he failed just one, who knows. I imagine some writers will vote for someone suspected of using pre-testing but won’t do so for someone who got caught after baseball had a formal policy.
   17. Srul Itza Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:31 PM (#6001945)
Thing is, the politics of most ballplayers is probably very similar to where Schilling is. [There was a time when the same would be true for the writers as well.] So it would not be right-wing views keeping him out.


Schilling was less liked by the baseball community than the writers.


Cite? Source?
   18. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:33 PM (#6001949)
Fourteen blank ballots is a disgrace. These "voters" should be removed from the balloting immediately.
   19. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:35 PM (#6001950)
How does Latroy Hawkins get 2 votes?
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:39 PM (#6001951)
17. Years of paying attention. His 93 Phil’s teammates loathed him. Ed Wade described him as a horse every fifth day and a horse’s ass the other four. David Wells said he was the least liked player in the game. Multiple feuds with other players.
   21. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:41 PM (#6001952)
People really really liked LaTroy Hawkins.
   22. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:42 PM (#6001954)
David Wells said he was the least liked player in the game.

Wells later said he was just trying to get under Schilling's skin with that comment.
   23. TJ Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6001955)
I don’t think Schilling’s views would keep the Vets from voting for him, since I suspect many share his politics. Chipper Jones and John Smoltz come to mind, for example. I think there is more of a chance the way Schilling chooses to express those views would have Vets questioning whether they want him in. Can’t say I would blame them- would you want someone who acts like Schilling does in your group?
   24. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:51 PM (#6001956)
Aren’t the VCs now a hodgepodge of of players, execs, and what not? Wasn’t it Reinsdorf who basically pulled Baines in?

Besides that, don’t they rotate eras now, too? And aren’t there like 5 era committees?
   25. asinwreck Posted: January 26, 2021 at 07:58 PM (#6001958)
Plenty of eras, and it looks like Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling will be in one together.

Mark Buehrle got 44 votes. He may stick around on the ballot for a few years.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:01 PM (#6001959)
It isn’t Schilling’s politics that have kept him out. Smoltz was every bit as conservative and sailed in.

24. Yes. It’s not the same voters.

I don’t know how the vets will treat him. But I don’t think he’s in any way a lock there.
   27. Booey Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6001962)
The decision of the writers to start broadly applying the character clause for any reason they see fit is becoming a real problem, IMO. The current ballot features 5 or 6 players being snubbed for PED's - Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Manny, and Sheffield for sure, plus possibly Pettitte (he's borderline to begin with, so no idea how many writers are holding the HGH admission against him vs how many just don't see him as a HOFer), 1 guy for domestic violence (Vizquel), and 1 guy for being a Twitter troll (Schilling). And it's not going to end there. Next year we'll see at least one and possibly 2 more steroid snubs (ARod, maaaybe Ortiz). Then in 2023 we'll very likely see Beltran snubbed for the Astros sign stealing scandal. Then in 2024 we'll have Utley, who might not have the counting stats to get serious support to begin with, but that leg breaking slide could easily be the final nail in his coffin. We're running out of non controversial candidates. Beltre will go first ballot in 2024, and Ichiro in 2025. Ortiz probably gets in pretty quickly (but that's not a guarantee). Sabathia debuts in 2025 and should get in within a few elections. Then we'll likely see Rolen, Helton, and maybe Andruw on the current ballot work their way to eventual election, but that's pretty much it until the older active stars start retiring, no?

Look, the steroid debates have been done to death, and I'm certainly no fan of domestic violence, elaborate sign stealing scandals, egregious Twitter trolling, or dirty bullsh!t plays like the Utley slide...but this is getting out of control. Past generations were never judged nearly this harshly. The character clause has gone from a technicality that was all but ignored for 7 decades for every offense other than gambling, to THE most important criteria for election that overrides everything else.

   28. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:06 PM (#6001965)
I think Schilling gets in eventually. But I also think he's only going to become more objectionable as he gets older. So he probably has to wait until he's been dead awhile.
   29. The Duke Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:07 PM (#6001966)
Putting aside your feelings about schilling for a second, it’s a pretty bad look for the Hall to have Eligible candidates ask to be taken off the ballot. Imagine if Omar vizquel or Barry bonds or roger Clemens or all of them ask the Hall to remove their name. That would be a disaster. What if A-rod says “don’t bother” I’m not interested. What if Ortiz said that?

What if a bunch of them get together and ask that they all be taken off ?

I think the Hall should clarify the rules before a debacle happens


And, that’s not their only issue. Several writers said they are thinking about bowing out altogether.
   30. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:11 PM (#6001968)
Past generations were never judged nearly this harshly. The character clause has gone from a technicality that was all but ignored for 7 decades for every offense other than gambling, to THE most important criteria for election that overrides everything else.


It's the world we're living in now. And, of course, it's not "character", it's partisanship, about who's on the right/wrong side of what line. Now, even baseball writers are part of the New Woke World (tm) that media types like to envision. (But that comes at a price...I'm guessing there are more than a few writers who aren't going to risk getting cancelled over a HoF vote for a "troglodyte" like Schilling.)
   31. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:25 PM (#6001970)
Uh-huh. Telll me another one, snowflake.

In 2018, Mariano Rivera hosted a fundraiser with Donald Trump jr for the America First PAC. In 2019, he became the first player unanimously elected to the hall of fame.

Spare us the tripe.
   32. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:28 PM (#6001971)
"I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''


What a tool.

This is just like Trump. You reach a point where you don't think it's possible to actually loathe someone any more then you already do, then they manage to lower the bar even further. It's quite extraordinary.
   33. cardsfanboy Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:31 PM (#6001972)
Outside of a ban from baseball, I don't even think the HOF has a system in place to remove a player from the ballot without re-writing some rules, and I doubt they'll do that for this asshat. So all his little trumpian twitter imitation does, is give the writers who clinched their noses and still voted for him, is an out for them to say "I will honor Schilling's wish and not vote for him." in the next ballot. Not really a smart move from him (not really expecting smart moves from people who support the last resident in chief to be honest) as a year out, if he shuts up and has a quiet year, and a non-election year, would probably bring back some of the support he lost.

Of course it would be great if the hof said, any player who asks their name to be taken off the ballot should still remain eligible for the hof, as it's an museum for the memory of baseball, but those players who request that, we will honor their request, by not inviting them to an induction ceremony.
   34. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:35 PM (#6001973)
FWIW, Schilling didn’t actually lose support. He was at 70% on the nose in 2020.... 71.1% this time.

But well, I know elections and results are hard for people nowadays.
   35. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6001974)
Past generations were never judged nearly this harshly.


They certainly were, just the criteria were different. That's why it took Josh Gibson 25 years to get into the HOF.
   36. The Duke Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:45 PM (#6001975)
He probably lost enough support to cost him election. He lost 7 votes amongst the 195 collected. If he lost 16 in total it cost him the election if I did my math right. I doubt you see too many people over 70% losing that many votes.
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:47 PM (#6001976)
Schilling was less liked by the baseball community than the writers.
Yet, Schilling won the Lou Gehrig Award, the Branch Rickey Award, the Roberto Clemente Award & the Hutch Award. That’s a lot of discretionary hardware that considers aspects of character, values, sportsmanship, community involvement & philanthropy. Haven’t seen many of Schilling’s teammates bad mouth him, either, and I certainly wouldn’t put much stock in Ed Wade - a PR flack out of his depth as a MLB GM, much in need of an explanation for trading a player of Schilling’s caliber for Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Travis Lee & Vicente Padilla.
   38. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:54 PM (#6001977)
I know elections and results are hard for people nowadays.

Actually, a late-night surge put Schilling over the top, along with Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Todd Helton, Mark Fidrych, Zach Wheat, Orval Overall and Jim Creighton. (In an informal news conference at Kelly's Bar, MLB commish Rob Manfred said, "There was no widespread fraud, and can I have one of those little drinks with an umbrella in it...?")
   39. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:55 PM (#6001978)
Schilling was less liked by the baseball community than the writers.



Cite? Source?


Today's Times noted a (very!) informal poll of 70-odd players that put Schilling in the high 50%, well below Bonds and Clemens. Story is a great read (if it hasn't already been posted elsewhere).

No player addressed the specifics of Schilling’s controversial social-media presence, though only 57.9 percent voted for him, compared to 75.3 percent of writers.


Edit: Oh, and the writers number is from Thibs thing, not (obviously) actual votes.
   40. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:59 PM (#6001979)
Haven’t seen many of Schilling’s teammates bad mouth him, either, and I certainly wouldn’t put much stock in Ed Wade - a PR flack out of his depth as a MLB GM, much in need of an explanation for trading a player of Schilling’s caliber for for Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Travis Lee & Vicente Padilla.


Wade was so clever he came up with that explanation before he traded him.

Schilling did some really good things outside the game, particularly in the area of ALS research. But he was never well liked within the game. Most saw him as an egregious self-promoter (Red Light Curt is what Fregosi called him).

   41. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:59 PM (#6001980)
When Wells retracted his comment about Schilling being most hated, he did make clear that lots of people did still dislike him.
   42. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: January 26, 2021 at 08:59 PM (#6001981)
Also, waiting until your tenth year of not making it to decide that you don't believe in the value of the survey would be like Peter O'Toole asking not to be considered again for an Oscar. Yeah, we get it. If he had pulled a Brando (or Terell Owens!) and said f - you after he was voted in, that would mean a lot more. But like many, I expected nothing more of Schilling at this point.
   43. Moeball Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:04 PM (#6001982)
#28 and #33 have the obvious solution to the Schilling Situation (Hey, it's the SS, Curt would like that). 1) Schilling belongs in the HOF, he was a heckuva pitcher 2) But no one wants to see him on a stage making a speech. So wait until he's dead and then induct him. Problem solved. Future generations will still see his plaque and hear the Legend of the Bloody Sock. Kind of like visiting the Hall now and recognizing that players like Anson and Cobb and Hornsby were indeed great players even if they also were some real jerks.
   44. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6001983)
schilling can get in when he's dead.
   45. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:10 PM (#6001984)
Wade was so clever he came up with that explanation before he traded him.
Wade’s comment came two days after Schilling demanded that the Phillies spend more money or trade him, which Wade then did at the trade deadline. That context doesn’t really help your point. Wade made his comments to justify his penny pinching & plan to trade Schilling at the deadline.
   46. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:16 PM (#6001986)
There are tons of conservative ball players. Schilling's politics aren't the problem. But he is a jerk, and especially a jerk to journalists. And it's journalists who vote on the hall. Even if we would prefer that it wasn't this way, being a jerk to voters is a good way to get them to not vote for you. If Schilling just kept his mouth shut for a year, I bet he'd get in.

As for other applications of the character clause: I'm actually in favor of elaborate sign-stealing schemes. Banging trashcans was a great story! Egregious cheating in the silliest possible manner. Yes please! I'm fine with steroids too. They're not as much fun as trashcans, but they were (and are) a part of the game. Time to accept that and move on.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:20 PM (#6001987)
He traded Schilling a year after those comments, though I’m sure he knew in May of 1999 that he was going to get little in return 14 months later.

You should consider stopping now.
   48. Moeball Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6001988)
Ok this is totally off topic but this is the thread everyone is reading right now so I have a question: I know B-Ref was already monitoring and updating the 2020 season and it appears Retrosheet has just released their update for 2020. So the question of the day is does anybody know when Baseball Gauge is going to do their update for 2020? Just curious.
   49. reech Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:26 PM (#6001989)
You can tell how much this bothers Schilling since he continues to insist he doesn't care.
His rant today also mentioned how much this is draining his wife as she suffers through chemo.
How much his anti-american rantings is affecting his wife was not mentioned.
   50. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:28 PM (#6001990)
I'm sure Schilling is a calming, soothing presence in his wife's life outside of the persecution the BBHOF has subjected him to.
   51. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:35 PM (#6001993)

Vizquel only went down by 3%. I don’t think it was the domestic violence accusations that kept him out this year; maybe he lost a few votes as a result but he was always at best a borderline guy, exactly the kind of guy who would be hurt by a reputation as a bad guy. Anson or Cobb, he is not.
   52. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:38 PM (#6001994)
what a doosh
   53. bachslunch Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:41 PM (#6001996)
Rolen, Helton, and Andruw seem to be in varying degrees of reasonable shape to be elected. Wagner probably as well. If the domestic violence stuff sticks to Vizquel, he's toast.

I also wouldn't necessarily count Sheffield or Kent out completely, though they're going to have to jump up fast. Sheffield hit 40.6% in his seventh eligible year and Kent reached 36.4% in his eighth. Percentages for Larry Walker in his last four years: 21.9, 34.1, 54.6, 76.6. For Edgar Martinez: 43.4, 58.6, 70.4, 85.4. Not a gimme by any means, but not impossible either -- though PEDs are likely to stall out Sheffield.

Manny and Sosa are going nowhere, not surprisingly.
   54. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:42 PM (#6001997)

I don’t know how the vets will treat him. But I don’t think he’s in any way a lock there.


Was just curious, here's a list of players who got at least 50% and were never elected by the BBWAA or VC:

Gil Hodges

That's the list.
   55. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:45 PM (#6001999)
Living pitchers not in the Hall of Fame, over 60 years old*, 200+Wins

J. Perry(85, 215, 41.6)
Kaat (82, 283, 50.5)
Tiant (80, 229, 66.1)
Lolich(80, 217, 48.0)
Koosman( 78, 222, 53.6)
John (77, 288, 61.6)
Hough(73, 226, 38.4)
Reuschel(71, 214, 69.5)
Blue( 71, 209, 45.1)
Reuss (71, 220, 35.2)
Tanana (66, 240, 57.2)
Dennis Martinez (66, 245, 48.7)
Moyer*( 58, 269, 49.8)

If they're going to vote any of these guys in, I wouldn't be waiting too long...
   56. Booey Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:46 PM (#6002000)
#51 - The allegations came out after many early voters had already mailed in their ballots. As with Schilling, there were voters who asked the HOF if they could change their vote.

Depending on how the charges play out, I'm guessing Vizquel could lose more than 3% next year.
   57. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:57 PM (#6002002)

How does Latroy Hawkins get 2 votes?


Fourteen blank ballots is a disgrace. These "voters" should be removed from the balloting immediately.



Maybe they dont want they're votes taken away
   58. The Duke Posted: January 26, 2021 at 09:59 PM (#6002003)
Almost every story I read on vizquel said that their vote was being re-evaluated. He’s going down, not up.
   59. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:01 PM (#6002004)
Look, the steroid debates have been done to death, and I'm certainly no fan of domestic violence, elaborate sign stealing scandals, egregious Twitter trolling, or dirty bullsh!t plays like the Utley slide...but this is getting out of control. Past generations were never judged nearly this harshly. The character clause has gone from a technicality that was all but ignored for 7 decades for every offense other than gambling, to THE most important criteria for election that overrides everything else


I wonder how many writers used it in enos slaughter.

He was the most racist and anti semitic player of his time, and as opposed to Schilling it was on the field.

Ps richie allen might have been hurt because of the character clause
   60. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:02 PM (#6002006)
#56 good point, although I still don’t think it makes sense to lump him in with the other guys who are clearly only being kept out by character concerns.
   61. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:08 PM (#6002008)
"What if a bunch of them get together and ask that they all be taken off ?"

More to the point, what if they start their own museum?
   62. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:10 PM (#6002009)

I wonder how many writers used it in enos slaughter.

He was the most racist and anti semitic player of his time, and as opposed to Schilling it was on the field.

Ps richie allen might have been hurt because of the character clause


Albert Belle got 7 percent one year, and was dropped off after his second year. He probably gets a pretty good discussion and campaign for him if he was a nice guy.
   63. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:12 PM (#6002011)
In 2018, Mariano Rivera hosted a fundraiser with Donald Trump jr for the America First PAC. In 2019, he became the first player unanimously elected to the hall of fame.

And if rivera said he supports trump because men do not belong in womens bathrooms, would he still have been unanimous?

This is about politics sean forman, and jay jaffee openly said he is refusing to vote for Schilling because Schilling is against men in women's bathrooms and did.

Rivera supports candidates but if he publicly and forcefully (as much writers allow "trolling" on positions the writers like) would say something on issues, he would loose a few votes.

The other difference between the 2 is let's say we discover that Schilling died right after his playing career and his long lost identical twin brother was living his life for him the past years, Schilling is no getting anywhere near 90% of the vote next year
   64. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:13 PM (#6002012)
The BBWAA has released a statement that they will consider Schilling's request to remove his name from the ballot at their next meeting.


More to the point, what if they start their own museum?


The Parler Museum?
   65. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:21 PM (#6002015)
This is just like Trump. You reach a point where you don't think it's possible to actually loathe someone any more then you already do, then they manage to lower the bar even further. It's quite extraordinary.

Do you loathe Marvin Miller who asked the HOF to stop nominating him?

And Schilling has a much bigger right to be upset, miller was judged on baseball, Schilling is being judged as a person by people who he has no reason to respect.

How would you feel if a decent percentage of writers judged your hof career based on their political biases of you as a person.

If the media was conservative and didn't vote for you because you thought trump or bush stole the election, or lgbt is great, or blm is great (50% of this country has more of a problem wth burning down police stations then then storming the Capitol) and you are being withheld an honor you know you would otherwise deserve by people who are ultra righties in your eyes. (Assuming everyone agrees that at this point Schilling would be in the hof if not for...)
   66. depletion Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:23 PM (#6002016)
Great quote in the NYT article referenced above:
“I usually wind up feeling like the steroid guys should get in because I took a greenie once and felt like I could build a spaceship three minutes later,” O’Flaherty wrote, in explaining his ballot on Spaeder’s website.

I was pretty sure I was going to sell more records than the Beatles after my band played a high school dance under the same circumstances.
   67. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:23 PM (#6002017)
FWIW, Schilling didn’t actually lose support. He was at 70% on the nose in 2020.... 71.1% this time.

But well, I know elections and results are hard for people nowadays.

He lost votes from people who thought baseball wise he is a h9fer, he assumingly gained points from people who either had 2 extra slots on their ballot or thought he wasnt worthy baseball wise.
   68. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:24 PM (#6002018)
And if

But there's no if. There's actually what happened.
   69. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:29 PM (#6002023)
a PR flack out of his depth


This should be Clapper's handle.

As to Schilling, I suggested that 1/6/21 might hurt him, and if people were allowed to vote after that, I think it might have. Pete Rose also won the Hutch, the Clemente, and the Gehrig, and was out of baseball by the time Rickey Award came into being.
   70. Zonk is now Unified Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:29 PM (#6002024)
Make it a goal to be disliked by some people and you will generally succeed beyond your wildest dreams.
   71. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:34 PM (#6002025)
More to the point, what if they start their own museum?


It would fail miserably, even if McCoy got to select the location.

For starters, the Hall has the history, the relationship with MLB and, most important, all the cool ####. The plaque room is the boring part.

Also, though it's not obvious here, many, many baseball fans do not want Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens and those guys in the Hall. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the BBWAA supports their candidacies in greater numbers than baseball fans at large.

How would you feel if a decent percentage of writers judged your hof career based on their political biases of you as a person.


Nonsense. John Smoltz was probably more conservative than Schilling over the course of their careers (he once compared gay marriage to bestiality). He sailed in.

Schilling himself was long known as a conservative and was progressing toward election. Then he decided to go out of his way to antagonize people, and he's only amplified this in recent times.
   72. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 10:42 PM (#6002028)
Did Sosa ever actually fail a PED test or is it that everyone "just knows" he was using too? I can't believe the corked bat incident is what's kept him so low on the ballot all these years given that we know it doesn't do anything for hitters. During his career he certainly seemed to me as the most admired of the big home run hitters.
   73. Ron J Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:10 PM (#6002031)
#71 Yeah. It's specifically his recent actions that kept him out. Up until this year his vote totals have been about what you'd expect given past voting history.
   74. RJ in TO Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:11 PM (#6002032)
Did Sosa ever actually fail a PED test or is it that everyone "just knows" he was using too?
Everyone "just knows".
   75. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:11 PM (#6002033)
This is about politics sean forman, and jay jaffee openly said he is refusing to vote for Schilling because Schilling is against men in women's bathrooms and did.

I have no idea what Sean Forman or Jay Jaffe said about why they weren’t voting for Schilling, but in case anyone wants to see what Curt actually said about transgender people, it’s there at the link. He did this while employed by ESPN, where one of his colleagues was a transgender woman (and BBWAA member/HOF voter).

Dude was a HOF caliber player, but I’m not shedding any tears for him.
   76. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:13 PM (#6002034)
How would you feel if a decent percentage of writers judged your hof career based on their political biases of you as a person.



Yeah, that's a huge reach mate. No one is judging Schilling on his political bias. He's a first class douche and that's why people loathe him.
   77. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:15 PM (#6002035)
Sosa was reportedly on the list of 104 players who tested positive in 2003, according to anonymous sources cited in the NY Times. (Ortiz was allegedly on the same list. Manfred subsequently stated that 10+ of the names on that list were very possibly false positives, without confirming any of the names on the list itself or which ones might have been false positives.)
   78. The Duke Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:17 PM (#6002036)
There’s all kinds of hidden standards on PEDs. Sosa is another one who’s physical appearance changed and people just assume. And his case is borderline, so if you attribute 20% of his case to steroids he’s not a HOFr. Bonds and Clemens pass on the “he would have been a hall not famer anyhow” test.

I’ve always found that to be irrelevant. Just like the Astro players are still good, it doesn’t mean I like people messing with the hopefully level playing field. To me it’s a combination of distorting competition, lying, breaking the law/rules, forcing others to do the same to keep up, and screwing up the record books. But I completely understand why there are about 5-6 standards that are used.
   79. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:23 PM (#6002038)
#72, the evidence for Sosa is kinda middling. Not in the Mitchell report, named elsewhere. I think his case will be one taken up pretty seriously by the VC.

The New York Times reported in 2009 that Sosa did test positive for a performance-enhancing drug in an a 2003 conducted by the MLB that allowed players to remain anonymous. In 2005, Sosa testified under oath before Congress at a public hearing that he had never taken any illegal PEDs.


Sammy Sosa discusses steroids and his HOF case

He was not named in the Mitchell report, he was named in the Grimsley affidavit

While dozens of players were named last week in the Mitchell report into the use of performance-enhancing substances in baseball, four others who were not in the Mitchell report — Sosa, Pete Incaviglia, Geronimo Berroa and Allen Watson — were named in a May 2006 affidavit by Jeffrey J. Novitzky, a special agent for the Internal Revenue Service criminal division, detailing his interview with the former pitcher Jason Grimsley.

The 20-page affidavit also names several other players who were named in the Mitchell report. That affidavit, and a second that was issued to get a search warrant executed on the home of Kirk Radomski, a former Mets clubhouse attendant, were unsealed Thursday.


Sosa and the Mitchell Report

I have never quite figured out how this should be handled. Somehow it seems wrong that, if I ever get to the Hall of Fame, the all-time home run leader, the greatest pitcher of the late 20th Century, and the 2 men who battled the home-run leader for the single-season crown, will all be missing from the museum. Pete Rose is also missing.

This is an issue, in general, with the general mood of the public. We are increasingly intolerant of any faults in our public figures, and incapable of forgiveness. We don't know how to handle it. I don't quite know how to handle it either.

This is related to something else - up until very recently, pitchers were judged by ERA, wins, and innings, and hitters by batting average, home runs, and RBI (and for some, stolen bases). Only recently did we learn that some other metric, WAR or WPA or something like that, was a better measure. The thing is, the players at that time TRIED to have a high number of wins and innings (for pitchers) and a high batting average (for hitters). Steve Garvey, for one, attempted every year to get 200 hits, and he had a program for doing it. Some folks thought that he was being self-centered for that, but his argument was that these are the things by which people judge a winning ballplayers, so I am going to do them. He would try to have so many bunt hits a year, etc., because he understood that would help him with batting average, which is what he thought was important.

So now we punish players for having high "traditional stats" versus WAR, when back then they were not judged (either by themselves or by their contemporaries) on WAR, but on traditional stats. So we punish folks who had high traditional stats in favor of those who had high WAR - even though if you asked those players back then who was good, they would point to the players with the traditional stats. It feels like we are judging people by different standards than they judged themselves, which in the context of the "Hall of Fame", seems wrongheaded - one could think of electing people who are either good in traditional stats, e.g. obviously good ("Fame"), or people who are found to be "secretly good" ("Merit?"), e.g. better than their traditional stats say, but we shouldn't be excluding the former in favor of the latter, we should be including both. Hunter, for example, was considered a Hall of Famer (by all accounts) while he was playing, though perhaps his WAR is not very high - but people didn't know what WAR was back then.
   80. Lars6788 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:28 PM (#6002039)
Sosa's worst crimes are being seen as a fake guy [made even worse by his skin condition over the past 10 years], being seen as a diva during his playing days [playing his salsa music in the clubhouse] and ultimately skipping out on the Cubs - without those faux pas, he probably has an easier road to the Hall of Fame [even with some PED rumors].
   81. Booey Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:28 PM (#6002040)
Ps richie allen might have been hurt because of the character clause


I'm sure it didn't help, but his career was short so his traditional stats (hits, HR, RBI) are well below the typical HOF threshold anyway. That was likely a much bigger roadblock.

#56 good point, although I still don’t think it makes sense to lump him in with the other guys who are clearly only being kept out by character concerns.


Oh I think even calling Vizquel borderline is being generous. He's not even close to a HOFer in my book...but until the allegations came out he was building momentum and looked like he was on a clear HOF pace. Without invoking "character", not only does he not lose those handful of votes, but he probably gains several more new ones. He was reaching bandwagon territory, and the new batch of candidates was...uninspiring. This was a year to make a big jump (see Rolen, Helton, Andruw).

Albert Belle got 7 percent one year, and was dropped off after his second year. He probably gets a pretty good discussion and campaign for him if he was a nice guy.


I don't see it. Career was short, counting stats were "meh", especially for a bat only sillyball era player. Belle basically had 4 great years (1994-1996, 1998), plus a few more pretty good ones. Not enough. Kind of Mattingly-ish, actually (yes, I know Donny hung around on the ballot for the duration, but he never made any progress).

Did Sosa ever actually fail a PED test or is it that everyone "just knows" he was using too? I can't believe the corked bat incident is what's kept him so low on the ballot all these years given that we know it doesn't do anything for hitters. During his career he certainly seemed to me as the most admired of the big home run hitters.


Supposedly his name was on the same "anonymous" list of failed tests that Ortiz was on, although how "an anonymous source says his name was on a list that's never been revealed to the public" counts as hard evidence to so many voters is beyond me. So yeah, basically everyone JUST KNOWS. If the other 2 guys who passed Maris were juicing, then Sammy had to be too. It's mostly guilt by association.
   82. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:31 PM (#6002041)
Nonsense. John Smoltz was probably more conservative than Schilling over the course of their careers (he once compared gay marriage to bestiality). He sailed in.

1. The left is more radical today
2. The voters are more liberal today, remember stoltz was elected before the purge.


Read the comments of scumbags like jaffee and forman why they didn't vote for Schilling.

Its because of Schillings views more than anything else.
   83. caspian88 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:31 PM (#6002042)
I think the "traditional stats" versus modern value-based metrics dichotomy is rarely a problem for HOF voting. The only player I can think of who certainly meets traditional stats standards, but not the WAR standard, who I would have considered voting for is Lou Brock. Generally, I don't think this is a serious problem.

I'm not sure anyone really considered Torii Hunter a future Hall of Famer when he was playing, though.
   84. Lars6788 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:32 PM (#6002043)

Its because of Schillings views more than anything else.


It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Merit.
   85. yest Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:40 PM (#6002046)
I have no idea what Sean Forman or Jay Jaffe said about why they weren’t voting for Schilling, but in case anyone wants to see what Curt actually said about transgender people, it’s there at the link. He did this while employed by ESPN, where one of his colleagues was a transgender woman (and BBWAA member/HOF voter).


Half the country agrees with Schilling on this. Anyone who uses this retweet to NOT vote for Schilling is bigot.


If a conservative refused to vote for someone who supported transgenders in the wrong bathroom and that is why they failed to make the hall, would you say it wasnt politics.

If I ever became a hall voter should I give them a political quastanere?

This so called "bigoted" thing by Schilling is pure politics and who ever says it's not is a lying hypocrite.
   86. Robbo Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:41 PM (#6002047)
Curt is that you?
   87. Froot Loops Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:46 PM (#6002048)
Schilling can have whatever position he wants in regards to transgender people, but I'd have a hard time voting for anyone who advocated for the overthrow of the American government. My country is more important than the Hall of Fame.
   88. caspian88 Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:51 PM (#6002052)
This "'bigoted' thing" by Schilling is pure bigotry. Refusing to vote for Schilling because of that and half a dozen other things is unarguably not bigotry.

Using bigoted language to defend bigotry by claiming victimhood on behalf of a bigot is totally unsurprising.

I don't care how many people agree with Schilling - they're wrong and bigoted. Sheer numbers don't change that.

Curt Schilling has not failed to be inducted to the NBHOF because of his politics (see Rivera only two years ago). He has failed to be inducted because of the sum totality of his behavior, combined with some crowded early ballots and low career wins/innings totals.
   89. Cleveland TBD fan Posted: January 26, 2021 at 11:59 PM (#6002053)
2. The voters are more liberal today, remember stoltz was elected before the purge.


Please stop with the Shilling is being done in by the evil liberals. Smoltz was elected in his first year with 83% of the votes in a strong year with 3 other players making the HOF. The "purged" conservative voters did not squeak him over the line. The voters just didn't care about his politics. If you want to actually try to support your argument, cite some voters saying that they didn't vote for him because of his politics. The cites for people not voting for him because he is a jerk are not hard to find.
   90. SoSH U at work Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM (#6002054)
2. The voters are more liberal today, remember stoltz was elected before the purge.


That had nothing to do with his vote. He got 82.9 percent. He was going in with or without the purged.

Schilling was a well-known conservative Republican and was making strong progress toward election. Then he decided to pull a Milo, intentionally offending people as part of his brand (Muslims = Nazis, insulting transgender people, joking about hanging journalists, inviting a white supremacist onto his radio show, supporting insurrectionists, etc.).

That's what cost him.
   91. kwarren Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM (#6002055)
There has never been a HoF ballot without deserving candidates on it. Ever. These idiots turn in blank ballots to prove how high-minded and "above the fray" they all are
I understand that this is your personal opinion, but people who don't believe steroid users and certain political activists should be inducted and who also believe in a small Hall would a very hard time finding a qualified candidate on this ballot. Personally I believe Clemens, Bonds, Schilling, and Jones are all easy choices, but I can see the possibility that somebody legitimately believe that nobody on the ballot should be inducted.
   92. baxter Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM (#6002056)
65/82 Is it possible to disapprove of both burning a police station and rioting to stop an election?

What do you mean by radical? I have said it before, Richard Nixon would not get the nomination for prez today he is too liberal for the democrats.

Is our Supreme Court too radical for you? It certainly does find a significant number of laws unconstitutional:

https://constitution.congress.gov/resources/unconstitutional-laws/

Do you think Biden is a socialist?

Schilling's an easy HOF'er. But, he likes running his yap. He's a grownup (at least by age and physiognomy), he can bear the consequences.

Why loathe Schilling? It requires passion; he is not worthy of passion.

It was great to watch him pitch, I don't need to hear him b*tch (unless it is funny)

Peace to you, identifier of radicals and scumbags.

   93. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:18 AM (#6002057)
[91] RMc’s insistence that writers who leave ballots blank should have their votes taken away is either him trolling or him showing an extreme lack of self-awareness that he’s a top advocate for cancel culture.
   94. yest Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:20 AM (#6002058)
Schilling can have whatever position he wants in regards to transgender people, but I'd have a hard time voting for anyone who advocated for the overthrow of the American government. My country is more important than the Hall of Fame.


Would you vote for those who burnt down a police station?

How about chaz supporters?


Would you have supported a boycott before January 6th (he would have been in before this year)

If you said yes to any of these this is politics, if not would you admit others against schilling would say yes to all 3.
   95. Cleveland TBD fan Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:22 AM (#6002059)
I’ve always found that to be irrelevant. Just like the Astro players are still good, it doesn’t mean I like people messing with the hopefully level playing field. To me it’s a combination of distorting competition, lying, breaking the law/rules, forcing others to do the same to keep up, and screwing up the record books. But I completely understand why there are about 5-6 standards that are used.


I find one of the most common arguments against steroids is that they "force other players to take them to keep up". People who make this argument never seem to follow it up with the obvious implication that the players who used because other people took them and "forced" them to use are less blameworthy then the original users. We know that players like Bonds and Clemons (if he used) adopted them years after they were widespread in baseball. Really, anyone using after about 1995 and before testing, were, at least partially, using because other players were "forcing" them to use to keep up.

Someone who uses this argument, please explain why the later players bear the same level of guilt as the players who started the steroid mess and "forced" the other players to catch up.
   96. Froot Loops Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:26 AM (#6002060)
Who's "chaz"?
   97. yest Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:34 AM (#6002061)

I'm sure it didn't help, but his career was short so his traditional stats (hits, HR, RBI) are well below the typical HOF threshold anyway. That was likely a much bigger roadblock.

He might have topped 50% which might have allowed him to make it with the veterans committee.
The pre steroids the character clause was used by some for
Cepeda (drugs),Jenkins (drugs), Perry (spit ball), don’t remember any articles but it probably was used against don https://mobile.twitter.com/ben13porter/status/1259956468616499206

Was also used on the veterans committee against dick Williams for indecent exposure.
   98. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:34 AM (#6002062)
capitol hill autonomous zone
   99. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:34 AM (#6002063)
so Jaffe is "the left"? What a ####### comment.
   100. kwarren Posted: January 27, 2021 at 12:37 AM (#6002064)
Ortiz probably gets in pretty quickly (but that's not a guarantee).
Does he not carry PED and DH baggage ? And on merit alone he's no better than Helton or Abreu. He's a very popular guy and that likely means he will breeze in.

As for other applications of the character clause: I'm actually in favor of elaborate sign-stealing schemes. Banging trashcans was a great story! Egregious cheating in the silliest possible manner. Yes please! I'm fine with steroids too. They're not as much fun as trash cans, but they were (and are) a part of the game. Time to accept that and move on.
This makes it all too easy. If we're just to going to evaluate players based on their on field production it dull and boring, and too obvious. Add in all sorts of other considerations and make the voters feel really important. That's what it's all about now.

More to the point, what if they start their own museum?
I'd go ! No crowds.
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