I could be wrong, but it seems to me that his rule 5 status is going to work against Mr. Song's interests.

Ideally, he needs one organization, with a clear philosophy, to help him get his work in. However, there's a high likelihood that he's going to end up with multiple franchises (either because he is returned to the Bosoxs or because an attempt is made to pass him through waivers, and he is then claimed by another franchise).

The alternative is probably some phantom injuries that push him to the IL, but that's also not ideal.

Seems like the Phillies best bet is to trade him to Oakland and get back a piece that is usable.

Seems like a trade to the Mariners would make the most sense.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that his rule 5 status is going to work against Mr. Song's interests.

In a sense, sure. On the other hand, he has a chance to make $700,000 this year playing baseball.

How bad would Song have to be for it not to be worth it for a team like Oakland or Washington to want to stash him on the active roster? What would they be willing to give up for that privilege?

Seems like the Phillies best bet is to trade him to Oakland and get back a piece that is usable.

Seems like a trade to the Mariners would make the most sense.
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ow bad would Song have to be for it not to be worth it for a team like Oakland or Washington to want to stash him on the active roster?

i didn't know wc fields had so many bastard offspring.

if this guy can throw 95+, and if he can so much as fake a slider, he can stick for a year in a modern bullpen.

Yeah if you are running a 13 man bullpen you can afford to carry this kid. Who knows what a couple years away have done but the arm was something else. I'm sure the Sox felt/were hopeful he wouldn't get picked up. Can a Rule 5 pick be traded? Like Darren says if I'm the A's or someone like that I'd carry him on the roster all year, get him 50 innings and see what happens. Given that the Phillies are in serious "win now" mode they may not be a good spot for him. Though hell, as noted how bad can he be?

The player who gets traded for him will evermore be known as the player who could be had for a song.

There are multiple bad teams, teams going nowhere in 2023, who could afford to stash Song in the bullpen, get him 50+ innings in games this year, and see what happens.

Also, keep in mind: A team can begin the season with this in mind, and then decide in June that it is not working out, and then do one of two things:

1) Offer him back to the Red Sox; or
2) Reach out to the Red Sox, and offer compensation in exchange for being able to keep Song, even if he is not on the big league team for all of 2023.

Song is 25, and pitched a handful of low-A innings four years ago. Who knows what kind of "pitching shape" he is in. The most likely outcome remains that either Song goes back to Boston, or Boston is approached with offers of compensation in exchange for Song.

I'm not a big fan of Bloom, but I don't think he was crazy to leave Song off the 40-man. It is unfortunate timing for Bloom, and fits a narrative common around Red Sox Nation that Bloom just isn't getting it done.

He'll never end up back in Boston. He gets put on waivers first. The only reason he wasn't on the protected list was the military service. With that out of the way, I'm confident almost everyone would put in a claim simply because he's worth more than 50-100k. The Phils will likely trade him for an asset and that team will stash him as the 26th man. Phillies May keep him a couple months as you don't need all those pitchers early on.

if this guy can throw 95+, and if he can so much as fake a slider, he can stick for a year in a modern bullpen.

Yes. I'm going to guess the Phils are going to treat the service academy experience as more than enough general seasoning, and just start him in the back of the bullpen and use him like anyone else.

2) Reach out to the Red Sox, and offer compensation in exchange for being able to keep Song, even if he is not on the big league team for all of 2023.

Wouldn't he have to go through waivers?

The player who gets traded for him will evermore be known as the player who could be had for a song.

Dust off the Primey machine.

if this guy can throw 95+, and if he can so much as fake a slider, he can stick for a year in a modern bullpen.

Aren't there about 100 guys in AAA who are better than this? Just randomly looking at the Cleveland farm system FG, I found Andrew Misiaszek, MIRP, age 25, 35+ FV, hits 95 with a 55/60 slider. Right above him, Nick Mikolajchak, SIRP, age 25, 35+ FV. Tops 95, 55/60 slider.

2) Reach out to the Red Sox, and offer compensation in exchange for being able to keep Song, even if he is not on the big league team for all of 2023.


Wouldn't he have to go through waivers?

He'll never end up back in Boston. He gets put on waivers first

What comes first? The requirement to offer him back to the originating club or the right to waive him outright? I assumed the former but even if it's the latter he still needs to spend an entire season on someone's MLB roster which is far from a sure thing. He hasn't pitched competitively in a long time.

I'm not 100% certain on this but ...

1. The Phils just keep him on the 25-man, pay Boston the money.
2. The Phils and Boston work out a trade and he goes on the Phils' 40-man. They can option him. He does not have to go through waivers for this to happen.**
3. The Phils decide not to keep him on the 25-man and don't work out a trade with Boston. He goes through waivers again, returning to Boston (for a price) if nobody else is willing to put him on the 25-man.
4. I'm not sure what happens if he passes through waivers but the Red Sox also decide not to pay to get him back -- not sure if he's a FA or still with the Phils or it works like a DFA.

** I'm not 100% sure he doesn't go through waivers again but I'm pretty sure he doesn't. This used to happen "all the time" in olden days, doesn't seem to happen very much anymore. But basically it's as if the Red Sox had traded him to the Phils and the Phils put him on the 40-man before all the rule 5 machinations.

What comes first? The requirement to offer him back to the originating club or the right to waive him outright? I assumed the former but even if it's the latter

I'm pretty sure it's the latter. (Or technically they might be simultaneous -- i.e. it is the offering him back to Boston that triggers the waiver process). Essentially he goes through the rule 5 draft a second time when the Phils decide they don't want him on the 25-man anymore ... unless they work out a trade with Boston.

Remember, if he goes back to Boston, he's not on the 40-man. Now maybe there's a priority ordering such that if the Red Sox are willing to put him on the 25-man, they get first dibs if the Phils let him go ... I have no idea, I don't think I've ever heard of that happening.

rule 5 is such a delightfully weird rule, I just love it. A general rule of "we don't want him on the 40-man, anybody else want him on their 40-man" would be a pretty straightforward rule. But the 25-man requirement makes it downright weird. You can "steal" this guy we don't want but only if you are willing to pay the roster price. And that essentially stays in effect until every team has passed on adding him to the 25-man. There are probably lots of teams that would be happy to add him to their 40-man but they can't do that without trading something to Boston.

Now maybe there's a priority ordering such that if the Red Sox are willing to put him on the 25-man, they get first dibs if the Phils let him go ... I have no idea, I don't think I've ever heard of that happening.

Not the same, but Jose Bautista was picked from the Pirates and ultimately traded to them in his Rule 5 season.

Bautista must be one of the most complicated rule 5s in history:

Grabbed by the O's from the Pirates in the 2003-4 offseason.
16 g, 12 PA with the O's
They give up and the Rays take him off waivers on June 3
12 g and 15 PAs with the Rays
Purchased by the Royals on June 28
13 g and 26 PAs with the Roywals
Traded by the Royals to the Mets for Justin Huber on July 30
Traded by the Mets (with others) to the Pirates for Benson and Keppinger on July 30
23 g and 43 PAs with the Pirates

It was his age 23 season so not exactly a youngster. The Pirates weren't any good in 2004 and they hadn't been any good in 2003, it's hard to imagine they couldn't find a 40-man spot for Bautista. All told Bautista got 64 g but just 96 PAs and that sure seems like a waste of a season of development time. Bautista was still 6 years away from becoming Bautista. I vaguely recall we thought the Royals got a steal in Huber ... not so much.

I'm not 100% certain on this but ...

1. The Phils just keep him on the 25-man, pay Boston the money.
2. The Phils and Boston work out a trade and he goes on the Phils' 40-man. They can option him. He does not have to go through waivers for this to happen.**
3. The Phils decide not to keep him on the 25-man and don't work out a trade with Boston. He goes through waivers again, returning to Boston (for a price) if nobody else is willing to put him on the 25-man.
4. I'm not sure what happens if he passes through waivers but the Red Sox also decide not to pay to get him back -- not sure if he's a FA or still with the Phils or it works like a DFA.

** I'm not 100% sure he doesn't go through waivers again but I'm pretty sure he doesn't. This used to happen "all the time" in olden days, doesn't seem to happen very much anymore. But basically it's as if the Red Sox had traded him to the Phils and the Phils put him on the 40-man before all the rule 5 machinations.

The article touches on this.

If Song does not make the Phillies out of camp, they could trade him to another team or place him on waivers, where any team could claim him and place him on its big league roster. Were Song to go unclaimed, he could be returned to the Red Sox for $50,000, and they could send him to the minor leagues.

rule 5 is such a delightfully weird rule, I just love it. A general rule of "we don't want him on the 40-man, anybody else want him on their 40-man" would be a pretty straightforward rule. But the 25-man requirement makes it downright weird. You can "steal" this guy we don't want but only if you are willing to pay the roster price. And that essentially stays in effect until every team has passed on adding him to the 25-man. There are probably lots of teams that would be happy to add him to their 40-man but they can't do that without trading something to Boston.

completely agree.

i do think it would be better if the draft was in may or august, instead of december. i think that kind of roster disruption would add a good amount of excitement for teams in the middle and bottom of the standings.

Yes. I'm going to guess the Phils are going to treat the service academy experience as more than enough general seasoning, and just start him in the back of the bullpen and use him like anyone else.

if people wanted him, they could have drafted him; it's not like the phillies had a top 5 pick or anything. stop trying to steal him away before he even gets to his first spring training.

Aren't there about 100 guys in AAA who are better than this? Just randomly looking at the Cleveland farm system FG, I found Andrew Misiaszek, MIRP, age 25, 35+ FV, hits 95 with a 55/60 slider. Right above him, Nick Mikolajchak, SIRP, age 25, 35+ FV. Tops 95, 55/60 slider.

yeah, maybe, but all of these guys are a crapshoot, and one organization can't just sign all of them. song is a guy the phillies chose; partly because they believe in him (i guess), but mostly because he happened to be available.

it is what it is.

Or they could put him on the disabled list

If Song does not make the Phillies out of camp, they could trade him to another team or place him on waivers, where any team could claim him and place him on its big league roster. Were Song to go unclaimed, he could be returned to the Red Sox for $50,000, and they could send him to the minor leagues.

Yes, for sure. I think we were all pretty clear on this. The uncertainty I think is around whether the Phils and Boston can work out a trade for his "options rights" without the Phils having to put him on waivers.

Technically it's the "option" that's missing. Normally a player with no service time who's on the 25-man can be optioned to the minors while remaining on the 40-man. Song on the Phils' 25-man cannot be optioned to the minors this year. It's a really weird status -- any team (by waiver order) can claim his 25-man roster rights but no team can claim his "option rights." Those apparently still reside with Boston even though the whole point of this was to get him off their 40-man. The Phils can trade with Boston for those option rights.

The other bit I'm not 100% clear on:

1. Boston decides they don't want him on the 40-man, he goes into the rule 5.
2. Phils pick him, put him on the 25-man.
3. Eventually Phils decide they don't want him on the 25-man
4. But in this interim, the Red Sox have decided they'd like him on their 25-man ...

What's the process? Does Boston get first dibs as long as they will now put him on the 25-man? (And if they later remove him this season he goes back into rule 5?) Does Boston get their usual waiver slot pick? Or does Boston have to wait until every team has passed on him at which point they not only get him back, he doesn't have to be on the 40-man?

I know how the system works when Boston hasn't changed their mind. But if they have, do they get to jump the queue, take their place in the queue or go to the back of the queue?

There are a few words in English English that are better than their American English synonyms. Queue is a good one (at least spoken, bit of a pain to type). Rubbish is probably the best one. Petrol is bad, aluminium is an abomination.

No knowledge, but I would guess Boston doesn't get any kind of first dibs or we would have heard of that happening at some point. I would guess they can claim him at their spot. The really weird thing would be if they claim him, can they then trade themselves the right to option him.

An interesting (OK, maybe not) hypothetical is how high would the fee have to get before nobody was picked? If the Phils had to pay $1 M (potentially getting $500 k back), I'm guessing Song doesn't get selected. But that also would allow teams to take more chances exposing players to rule 5, increasing the quality of player available. Have at it Freakonomists.

A Rule 5 player would have to go through waivers to remove the Rule 5 roster restrictions. A trade cannot remove those restrictions.

2. A Selected Player can be traded at any time, but the player cannot be Designated for Assignment, released, or sent to the minors any earlier than 20 days prior to MLB Opening Day, and then only if Outright Assignment Waivers have been secured and the player's former club declines to reclaim the player.

From Cub Reporter: Rule 5 Draft

So the process would go: clear waivers, returned to former team, then former team can trade him without Rule 5 roster restrictions.