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Saturday, August 12, 2006

N.Y. Daily News: Pavano in fan flap

Pavano, taking a rehab outing…a little too far.

Carl Pavano was involved in a verbal dispute with a fan at his rehab outing in Tampa on Thursday night, during which he made an off-color remark alluding to the fan’s sexual orientation, according to sources.

The fan was heckling Pavano all night - he even acknowledged as such in a complaint filed with the team, sources said - and the righthander finally snapped at him. Sources said that Pavano questioned why the fan was at the Florida State League game, then made his derogatory comment.

Repoz Posted: August 12, 2006 at 11:02 AM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. strikeout to balk ratio Posted: August 12, 2006 at 12:35 PM (#2137951)
the fan sounds like he deserved whatever slight came his way. i have a few choice words for him myself. let me just get my checklist out to make sure im not offending anyone.
   2. . . . . . . Posted: August 12, 2006 at 12:47 PM (#2137953)
Let me get this straight.

You go to a Tampa Yankees game, where, like, 200 people attend.

You ride a guy all game, hoping to incite a reaction.

The guy says something to effect of "Don't take this the wrong way, but coming to this game just to yell at me is the gayest thing I've ever seen."


You complain to the team and demand money for your pain and suffering.

-------------------------

Wow, that's like the shittiest thing I've heard someone do in a while. And the article implies that the guy planned it that way.


That being said, Pavano is a big gaping homosexual vagina face and its nice that someone finally introduced pot to kettle.
   3. Hubie Brooks (Not Really) Posted: August 12, 2006 at 01:03 PM (#2137957)
Pavano's pride is hurt, that is another 6 months on the DL.
   4. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 12, 2006 at 01:36 PM (#2137964)
First, using "gay" as an insult is prima facie homophobic.

Second, really, dzop, you think he said "my good man, based on your uncouth manners, I might have mistaken you for a poofter"?

He said some form of \"#### you, faggot!" The insults we choose in the moment can be quite telling.

I mean, calling for legal redress after getting taunted back by a player you've been taunting reaches new depths of lameness. But seeing as I don't really care about this fan and hopefully will never have to deal with him, whereas Carl Pavano is a major league ballplayer, I'm a lot more interested in Pavano.
   5. . . . . . . Posted: August 12, 2006 at 01:41 PM (#2137965)
First, using "gay" as an insult is prima facie homophobic.

No, it's not. And it reflects a profound narrowmindedness to see it as such. It's superficially homophobic, but it often reflects as much homophbia as "gyping" reflects anti-gypsy sentiment; that is to say, its not really homophobic at all.
   6. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 12, 2006 at 01:48 PM (#2137968)
"Gay" became an insult, what, in the last decade? I really don't think we've reached the point where a bigoted turn of phrase has been unshackled from its origins. I think we're still at the point where we can try to prevent bigotry from becoming entrenched in the language.

If Pavano had yelled that the fan had "gypped" him, the newspaper would not have stated that Pavano questioned whether the fan's business ethics resembled those of a European street hustler of Roma origin. The word and its original meaning are generally separated.

But the newspaper writers knew immediately that "faggot" is an insult because it's derogatory toward gay men. The newspaper report knows what we all know, that the insult "gay" is still directly connected to the meaning of the word.
   7. Dr Love Posted: August 12, 2006 at 01:49 PM (#2137970)
"my good man, based on your uncouth manners, I might have mistaken you for a poofter"

Damn. If I heckled a guy and he said that, I'd become his biggest fan.
   8. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: August 12, 2006 at 02:23 PM (#2137974)
First, using "gay" as an insult is prima facie homophobic.

It doesn't really say anything about homosexuality. Maybe Pavano made an off-color remark alluding to the guy's penchant for fat midget women with only one leg.
   9. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 12, 2006 at 02:34 PM (#2137981)
But the newspaper writers knew immediately that "faggot" is an insult because it's derogatory toward gay men.

Or bundles of sticks. F'n sticks.
   10. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: August 12, 2006 at 06:42 PM (#2138228)
"Gay" became an insult, what, in the last decade? I really don't think we've reached the point where a bigoted turn of phrase has been unshackled from its origins.

This is not really related to MCoA's main point, but is the use of "gay" in this way really this recent? I have started hearing "gay" used again in this way, but I attributed it to social class or something, as from age 18 to say, 28, I was basically surrounded by upper-middle class, white academic types who exercised quite a bit of decorum/PC*, but lately I've been around a wider range of folks.

(*The conservatives exercised decorum; the liberals were being PC, of course.)

I grew up in the Southern Cal suburbs in the 70's, and kids used "gay" all the time. We generally meant it to mean an activity or person was queer. Er, I meant that it sucked.

I'd say MCoA has a point. But I do wonder about whether using the term in this way is recent or not. Is it regional?
   11. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: August 12, 2006 at 07:10 PM (#2138255)
(*The conservatives exercised decorum; the liberals were being PC, of course.)

That's gay.
   12. . . . . . . Posted: August 12, 2006 at 07:49 PM (#2138320)
Toaster Strudel is gay.
   13. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2006 at 08:10 PM (#2138351)
"Gay" became an insult, what, in the last decade? I really don't think we've reached the point where a bigoted turn of phrase has been unshackled from its origins. I think we're still at the point where we can try to prevent bigotry from becoming entrenched in the language.
Uh, no. "Gay" was an insult when I was in elementary school 15-20 years ago. We had no idea that it could also mean homosexual (or, for that matter, what "homosexual" would actually have meant), but it was an insult.

He said some form of "#### you, faggot!" The insults we choose in the moment can be quite telling.
They can be, but they may not "tell" you what you think you're hearing. When people use the m-f insult, do you think they're actually picturing the act? Or do you think it's just a word?
   14. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2006 at 08:13 PM (#2138355)
Uh, no. "Gay" was an insult when I was in elementary school 15-20 years ago. We had no idea that it could also mean homosexual (or, for that matter, what "homosexual" would actually have meant), but it was an insult.
Er, and by "15-20 years ago," I meant 25-30 years ago. I must be drunk or something.
   15. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: August 12, 2006 at 11:07 PM (#2138454)
Er, and by "15-20 years ago," I meant 25-30 years ago. I must be drunk or something.

That kind of typo signifies a big fag.
   16. tfbg9 Posted: August 12, 2006 at 11:38 PM (#2138481)
If there's nothing mockable with homosexuality, then how can Pavano be sued for saying some heckler is a homosexual? Isn't the lawsuit guy being anti-homosexual, sort of? We've come along way from Lenny Bruce.

Same Swing is always posting these kind of of stories.
   17. Shredder Posted: August 12, 2006 at 11:59 PM (#2138504)
I mean, calling for legal redress after getting taunted back by a player you've been taunting reaches new depths of lameness.

I don't disagree. I'd just like to point out, as others have, that calling some "gay" isn't any more prima facie homophobic than calling something lame is prima facie evidence that someone hates handicapped people. In certain contexts, "gay" and "lame" mean pretty much the same thing.
   18. tfbg9 Posted: August 13, 2006 at 12:26 AM (#2138540)
" In certain contexts, "gay" and "lame" mean pretty much the same thing."

Maybe, but MCoA really really wants to denounce somebody today, especially a Yankee! ;-)
   19. NTNgod Posted: August 13, 2006 at 12:41 AM (#2138565)
has been unshackled from its origins.

meaning "happy" ?
   20. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 13, 2006 at 01:30 AM (#2138641)
If there's nothing mockable with homosexuality, then how can Pavano be sued for saying some heckler is a homosexual?
Even if there is something mockable about homosexuality, he can't be sued for that.
   21. Cutter Posted: August 13, 2006 at 01:52 AM (#2138675)
But the newspaper writers knew immediately that "faggot" is an insult because it's derogatory toward gay men.

Or bundles of sticks. F'n sticks.


lol. The fan was an idiot but I can see why he was getting in Pavano's face. It doesn't say that he filed suit, which would be tremendously homer-sexual-like.
   22. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 13, 2006 at 01:53 AM (#2138676)
######## about the deragatoryness of words is so gay.
   23. John Mazzeo Posted: August 13, 2006 at 02:22 AM (#2138704)
Seriously, if you want to pay your money to go into a ballpark and slag off a player all night that's your choice. But don't ##### about it if he replies to you, that just turns you into a whiner.

On a related note, we were using 'gay' or 'fag' as an insult, in England, 25 years ago, and we were pretty much completely aware of the connotations. I'm not proud of it but I will still use it to certain gay mates, albeit jokingly.
   24. Benji Posted: August 13, 2006 at 04:37 AM (#2138785)
The best one of those insults was by Red Holzman. That creep in Washington that screams at the players all game was all over the Knicks, and Red called time, walked over to the guy and calmly said "if you be a good boy the rest of the game, I'll let you come in the locker room and watch the guys shower". Shut him up but good.
   25. baudib Posted: August 13, 2006 at 05:27 AM (#2138804)
homos
   26. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 13, 2006 at 05:37 AM (#2138807)
Maybe, but MCoA really really wants to denounce somebody today, especially a Yankee! ;-)


I doubt it. I'm a Yankees fan and I have no recollection of this Pavano character being on the team.
   27. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 13, 2006 at 07:04 AM (#2138828)
That creep in Washington


Robin Ficker. And if someone can explain why I can remember this jackoff's name but can't remember my office phone number, I'm all ears.
   28. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: August 13, 2006 at 07:25 AM (#2138830)
That guy's actually a politician. Someone should go to his speeches and heckle him.
   29. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: August 13, 2006 at 11:22 AM (#2138847)
His rehab speeches.
   30. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 13, 2006 at 01:34 PM (#2138868)
I'd just like to point out, as others have, that calling some "gay" isn't any more prima facie homophobic than calling something lame is prima facie evidence that someone hates handicapped people. In certain contexts, "gay" and "lame" mean pretty much the same thing.
I never said it was prima facie evidence that Pavano is a homophobe. Maybe that's where all this resistance has come from - I'm not claiming I know what's in Pavano's heart. I'm saying that using "gay" as an insult is prima facie homophobic. It's the action, not the intent.

I think people are really rushing to Pavano's defense in ways that don't make much sense. Again, the newspaper writers knew immediately that this insult had to do with sexual orientation. The force of the slur remains connected to that. I think there's some pretty serious straight-boy denial going on in this thread.
If there's nothing mockable with homosexuality, then how can Pavano be sued for saying some heckler is a homosexual? Isn't the lawsuit guy being anti-homosexual, sort of? We've come along way from Lenny Bruce.
Teddy - you're right about Rudy Seanez, but, seriously, this is maybe the dumbest thing I've ever read. If there's nothing mockable about being black, how can it be wrong to use the n-word as a slur?

Your argument suggests that in any case where a slur - racist, sexist, homophobic - is used, it's the victim and not the aggressors that is bigoted. That's completely insane.
   31. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 13, 2006 at 01:51 PM (#2138871)
It's superficially homophobic, but it often reflects as much homophbia as "gyping" reflects anti-gypsy sentiment; that is to say, its not really homophobic at all.

Oh boy. We've gone over this before. Calling someone who is not gay "gay" has what purpose? No, it's not homophobic (maybe). It's derogatory, though, isn't it? Of course it is. It's like saying "you're stupid", only different. "Gay" doesn't mean "stupid", does it? If it does to you, then while you may not have a phobia about gays, you definitely have a negative bias towards them. Pavano would have been better served calling the guy a d-head, or an a-hole, or a emmer effer. Unless he felt that calling the guys sexuality into question was appropriate. I can't imagine why the guys sexuality would make a difference to anyone, but that's just me.

In certain contexts, "gay" and "lame" mean pretty much the same thing.

Shredder, assuming you have any gay friends, run that one by them and see what their response to it is.
   32. Swedish Chef Posted: August 13, 2006 at 02:24 PM (#2138890)
Well, being somewhat lame (literally), I don't see why "gay" or "faggot" should be any worser than "lameness".

Not that I am upset about that, I don't believe in judging people on how well they express themselves, it's just stacking the deck in favour of the well-educated and articulate. Actions are what counts, and you can be a huge bigot while never using a bad word.
   33. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 13, 2006 at 02:30 PM (#2138894)
Not that I am upset about that, I don't believe in judging people on how well they express themselves, it's just stacking the deck in favour of the well-educated and articulate. Actions are what counts, and you can be a huge bigot while never using a bad word.

The second sentence is partly true. The first is BS. One need not be articulate or well educated to understand that "gay" (or "lame") is inappropriate. One just needs to have a little empathy. Is that taught in schools?
   34. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 13, 2006 at 02:37 PM (#2138898)
Well, being somewhat lame (literally), I don't see why "gay" or "faggot" should be any worser than "lameness".
Thanks for the response. It's definitely not a word I think to question, and that's not a good thing. My bad.
   35. Jeff K. Posted: August 13, 2006 at 04:11 PM (#2138963)
Shredder, assuming you have any gay friends, run that one by them and see what their response to it is.

We've had this discussion before (recently), but I have more than one gay friend, and they all have said, at one point or another, that something was 'gay', meaning 'lame'.

I don't if it's social, regional, or what, but it is used.
   36. spivey Posted: August 13, 2006 at 05:18 PM (#2139011)
Only by gay hating gays, maybe. Shame on your friends.
   37. tfbg9 Posted: August 13, 2006 at 06:45 PM (#2139129)
MCoA I meant "gay" not a slur word for gay, in #17. Which doesn't make huge ammounts of sense, since it is clear that Pavano used the slur, on second thought. The insulted guy was presumably not gay, also, right? But, if one white guy insulted another white guy by calling him "black" and the insultee got totally all bent out of shape by it, wouldn't a black onlooker of the exchange note the level of THAT white guy's outrage at being called "black" as suspiciously racist?

When I was 14 or so in PA, back in the mid 70's, boys of 13 or so would put each other down by calling each other a "woman." That sort of thing. My college age sister would ask why it was an insult to call someone a woman, as if there was something bad about being a woman. Its absurd, I know.

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