Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, July 05, 2021

Only One Player Has Ever Been As Good As Shohei Ohtani

As I wrote in May, this is a modern Babe Ruth season. But that might be understating what Ohtani has been doing. According to Baseball-Reference.com’s wins above replacement, Ohtani is on pace for 11.7 total WAR per 162 games this year, including 6.7 as a position player and 5.0 as a pitcher. That would be an astronomical tally — none of teammate Mike Trout’s seasons have reached that level; in fact, it hasn’t been done since Barry Bonds in 2002. But even more remarkably, no player in AL or NL history has even come close to producing 5 WAR on both sides of the ball in the same season. Ruth’s best two-way year saw him put up 6.0 WAR as a batter and 3.0 WAR as a pitcher in 1918, one of his last seasons before becoming a full-time outfielder.

When even the canonical example of a two-way baseball superstar fails to measure up, that means it’s pretty hard to find parallels for Ohtani’s 2021 performance. But it’s not impossible. After Baseball-Reference officially added statistics from the Negro Leagues to its major league records earlier this month, it opened up a lot of new comparisons in the data that weren’t possible before. Because of that, we have a chance to highlight another player that essentially did what Ohtani is doing right now — Bullet Rogan of the Kansas City Monarchs in the 1920s and ’30s.

We’ve talked about Rogan’s two-way prowess before, and we found that his most similar current comparison would be if a single player was like Ronald Acuña Jr. at the plate and Gerrit Cole on the mound. (Which is basically a description of Ohtani, too, if you think about it.) But that was before Baseball-Reference incorporated data from the Seamheads Negro Leagues database into its canon. The numbers now on the site make Rogan’s career look just as impressive: Despite playing in leagues with schedule lengths that usually ranged from 60 to 100 games per season, he produced 23.7 WAR as a batter and 37.8 as a pitcher, for a grand total of 61.5 career WAR — or more than 99.3 percent of all MLB players since 1901. (He and Ruth are also the only players with at least 20 career WAR as both a batter and a pitcher.)

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 09:24 AM | 108 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bulletin board, negro leaguers, shohei ohtani

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. karlmagnus Posted: July 05, 2021 at 11:12 AM (#6027681)
Parisian Bob Caruthers put up 4.3 WaR as a batter and 7.6 WaR as a pitcher in 1886. He's probably the closest comp to Ohtani. It's a great mystery why there have not been others -- cricket has lots of them.
   2. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: July 05, 2021 at 11:21 AM (#6027683)
I wonder if sports have become too specialized at a youth level to allow this to happen very frequently.
   3. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2021 at 11:32 AM (#6027685)
#2 Plausible but not inevitable.

I mean youth cricket is a thing and you still get all-rounders (IE competent batsman and bowler). I think it's because all-rounders are valued in cricket while players with the ability to do both get a lot of pressures to pick one path in baseball. Cricket is trying to find them and baseball really isn't.

   4. Nasty Nate Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:05 PM (#6027690)
I wonder if sports have become too specialized at a youth level to allow this to happen very frequently.
Very frequently!? Let's start with it happening more than once!
   5. JJ1986 Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:08 PM (#6027691)
Brendan McKay seems to have little hope of hitting in the big leagues at this point.
   6. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:11 PM (#6027692)

I think it's just really hard to be MLB-quality at either hitting or pitching, so being that good at both really limits the pool. I made this comment in another thread but I would argue that what Ohtani's doing is almost as impressive as being a two-sport star. Maybe more impressive, given how good he is at both.

In terms of specialization, Jose and Ozzie Canseco are identical twins. I remember reading that their father had one focus on pitching and the other on hitting as kids, in the hopes of maximizing the chance that one would make it as a pro. Ozzie was actually a 2nd round draft pick as a pitcher but never really panned out and converted to hitting. Jose was a lower round draft pick but became a star, with some chemical assistance. Not sure what conclusion to draw from that, but even identical genes (and drugs) as Jose wasn't enough for Ozzie to succeed given his earlier focus on pitching. Or maybe he just never would have been as good for other reasons.
   7. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:14 PM (#6027693)
Martin Dihigo?
   8. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6027695)
It's probably obvious to many, but still worth pointing out - the DH benefits Ohtani relative to Babe Ruth because he can play the day(s) after a pitching assignment, when Ruth (at least from looking at the games played) had to sit to rest his arm (Ruth pitched 300+ innings/year when he was a full-time pitcher).

In baseball, it takes a long time for change to take place. I imagine a lot of the pressure to become choose either pitching or batting/fielding had to do with the pre-DH playing-time penalty, which meant that one couldn't effectively play every day. Now with the widespread use of the DH, that restriction no longer exists. Given that many good pitchers in high school are generally the best overall players on their team, it may be that Ohtani! is a harbinger of things to come, now that the conceptual gate is open.
   9. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 12:34 PM (#6027697)

It's probably obvious to many, but still worth pointing out - the DH benefits Ohtani relative to Babe Ruth because he can play the day(s) after a pitching assignment, when Ruth (at least from looking at the games played) had to sit to rest his arm (Ruth pitched 300+ innings/year when he was a full-time pitcher).

Yeah, and it also means he doesn't have to spend much time on his fielding. If, say, Don Newcombe could have hit without playing the field on his off days, might he have developed into a pretty good MLB hitter? He had a career 84 OPS+, including a season where he hit .359 with 7 HR in 125 PA.
   10. baxter Posted: July 05, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6027698)
9. I thought about Drysdale and Spahn, both with great reputations for hitting; but neither as good as Newk.

I remember Gary Peters pinching hitting on the game of the week, not bad for a pitcher, 70 OPS +

Red Lucas, read about in one of the Bill James books, 12 batting WAR, 85 OPS +; w/in 3 WAR of Bill Buckner

Wes Ferrell 100 OPS +, better hitter than his HOF brother



   11. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 05, 2021 at 01:38 PM (#6027701)
If, say, Don Newcombe could have hit without playing the field on his off days, might he have developed into a pretty good MLB hitter? He had a career 84 OPS+, including a season where he hit .359 with 7 HR in 125 PA.


Newcombe played as a position player (55 games in the outfield and 27 at first base) for the Chunichi Dragons in the Japanese Central League in 1962, when he was 36 years old. He hit .262/.316/.473 in 301 PA, with 12 HR and 23 doubles. That .473 SLP would have ranked third in the league, behind only Sadaharu Oh and Shigeo Nagashima, if he had had enough PA to qualify. It was very much a pitcher's league - the CL hit .231/.284/.335 that season, so Newcombe's line is far better than it might first appear.
   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6027703)


It's probably obvious to many, but still worth pointing out - the DH benefits Ohtani relative to Babe Ruth because he can play the day(s) after a pitching assignment, when Ruth (at least from looking at the games played) had to sit to rest his arm (Ruth pitched 300+ innings/year when he was a full-time pitcher).


I can imagine the hot takes back in the day that Ruth had to "rest" his arm, and that modern players werne't built like guys in the 19th century.
   13. baxter Posted: July 05, 2021 at 02:30 PM (#6027706)
11 those 82 games are in addition to pitching?
   14. AndrewJ Posted: July 05, 2021 at 05:00 PM (#6027712)
I don't know whether Ohtani is statistically the equal of Babe Ruth, but a good pitcher capable of leading the league in homers is something nobody alive has seen before. This is a once-a-generation phenomenon, like Mark Fidrych in 1976. Let's just sit back and enjoy it for the moment.
   15. Walt Davis Posted: July 05, 2021 at 07:07 PM (#6027731)
when Ruth (at least from looking at the games played) had to sit to rest his arm (Ruth pitched 300+ innings/year when he was a full-time pitcher).

Ruth was almost never a regular fielder and pitcher at the same time. Just look at the game logs.

1. From 1914-1917, Ruth never started in the field although he did do some PHing. He obviously could have DH'd had it existed. After joining the Yanks, he stopped pitching. So he did both really only during the 1918-19 seasons.

2. In 1918, he didn't take the field until May 6 (game 18) by which point he had 5 starts. (He was hitting a mere 438/526/750 :-)

3. For the next 4 weeks (24 games), he got 3 starts on the mound and 8 starts on the field.

4. For the next 52 games, he got 3 starts on the mound and 43 in the field.

5. For the final 32 games of the season (just a 126 game season), he went back to being both a pitcher and hitter with 9 starts on the mound and 18 in the field. In general he was not given time off before or after a start, including one day starting G1 of the DH then LF for G2. He did miss 3 games after starting G 117 but given Boston was in a tight race, I'm guessing that was injury more than rest.

6. In 1919, for the first 50 games of the season, he was used both ways pretty regularly ... 9 starts as a pitcher, one 8-inning relief stint, 32 starts in the field. Once he had the day off before, twice he had the day off after, twice he started G1 on the mound and G2 in the field

7. He doesn't pitch again for 23 games (hurt?). Over the next 14 games, he makes 4 starts and 10 field with no games off.

8. For the remaining 50 games, he gets no games off and makes just 2 starts as a pitcher. (Just a 138-game season)

So (A) Ruth was only a two-way player for about 120 games spread over two seasons but (B) there's no clear evidence the Red Sox gave him extra rest in those periods although possibly they were at the end of 1918.

The Angels are doing something interesting with Ohtani. He always gets at least 5 and usually 6 full days of rest (or "rest") between starts. Given the crapitude of the rest of the Angels' rotation, running a 6-man rotation (or 5 plus bullpen day or whatever they are doing) can't be too beneficial to the team as a whole. Of course better than 0 GS from Ohtani. I see that bad start the other day evened up his ERA and his FIP.

The Angels, like the Ruth Red Sox, aren't giving him games off before/after he pitches. He is getting the day off here and there but it's not related to his starts. Clearly they think giving him the extra day off the mound is enough. I wonder if it might make more sense to make Ohtani a Ted Lyons type -- pitch him at home only (guaranteed good attendance) which could still keep him at 20-25 starts a year (on pace for 24 this year). But if he keeps hitting like this, I suspect he'll be a full-time batter soon enough -- 120 innings of good pitching value is really nice but not worth risking injury to a 150 OPS+ or better bat.

But then I never thought the Angels would take the risk they're taking this year. I figured they would give him a day off after starting, I wasn't sure he'd bat when he started so I figured he'd be capped at about 400-450 PA max. He's on pace for over 600 PA this year and 24 starts. Ruth only came close to that in 1919 and he didn't pitch that well or, for that era, that often and then virtually never pitched again.

Anyway, Ruth only did what Ohtani has been doing in stretches, totalling about 120 games over 2 seasons. Ruth obviously was a very good pitcher and a great hitter but his storyline is more "he was a full-time pitcher then a full-time hitter with a short transition period in between" than it is "Ruth was a full-time two-way player." That might have been what the Red Sox (and Ruth) were hoping for but it's not how it worked out. Remains to be seen if Ohtani can pull it off and stay healthy.
   16. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: July 05, 2021 at 07:10 PM (#6027733)
he was used both ways pretty regularly

NTTAWWT.
   17. sunday silence (again) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 09:34 PM (#6027747)
I thought one of the reasons its so hard to pitch and hit is that one is an overhand motion and the other is underhand. I got called on to pitch once in little league and even though I was a pretty good hitter, I couldn't it anything the day I pitched. It felt weird I guess.

In cricket the bowler actually uses an underhand motion correct? So that might account for his ability to both throw and hit. I guess. Its just a theory I had laying around somewhere.

Does Ohtani actually bat on the day he pitches? if he doesnt that might be some evidence that he finds it difficult to do both at the same time. HE's really something though.
   18. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2021 at 09:46 PM (#6027749)
#15 He was simply refusing to pitch in 1919. Or to be more precise, had to be cajoled. And jumped the team at one point because he didn't feel like pitching.
   19. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 10:05 PM (#6027752)

In cricket the bowler actually uses an underhand motion correct? So that might account for his ability to both throw and hit. I guess. Its just a theory I had laying around somewhere.


I would say that the cricket bowling motion is actually even more of an overhand than pitching a baseball. And batting is even more of an uppercut than hitting a baseball.
   20. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 06, 2021 at 01:16 AM (#6027773)
Does Ohtani actually bat on the day he pitches? if he doesnt that might be some evidence that he finds it difficult to do both at the same time. HE's really something though.


Yes, unless the bench is so short that if Madden loses the DH when Ohtani leaves the game, he'll run out of position players.
   21. Walt Davis Posted: July 06, 2021 at 01:45 AM (#6027776)
There aren't really that many good bowlers who are good batsmen. They generally bat low in the order (at least at elite levels) and you hope you never get to them. There are some exceptions -- bowler Shane Warne holds the record for most test runs by a batter who never scored a century (he got dismissed on 99 once) ... which is an odd record but means he didn't suck with the bat. My impression is that they are better batsmen than baseball pitchers but very few are actual good batsmen.

The big difference is that they can't really be subbed for. An ODI match is 50 overs and no bowler can bowl more than 10 so those minimum 5 bowlers all have to play in the field and there's some chance they may have to bat. (An "over" is 6 "pitches" and you have to change bowlers after each over.) You can sub for injured players but the sub isn't allowed to bowl so that would generally force one of your original non-bowlers to start bowling. Anyway, not that there's a lot of fielding in cricket, even your top bowlers are spending most of their day in the field. As such you probably get more Brooks Kieshnick types or at least bowlers who might play a passable OF (to put it in baseball terms).

Another way to look at it, as one website sort of put it, the bowler isn't necessarily a bad batsman, he's just not elite. If he was playing at the equivalent of A ball, he might be the #5 hitter say. That's not really something we see in baseball.

And yes, the motion is extreme overhand while the batsman is pretty much the opposite. One website even mentioned that good batters are rarely tall while height is an advantage for bowlers.
   22. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 06, 2021 at 03:13 AM (#6027780)
Yes, the difference in cricket is that there's no structural reason why a good bowler can't be a good batsmen (except for training regimens, I suppose) - if you're a good enough bowler to be in the starting team, then you're going to have to bat at some stage, and the only limiting factor on your batting time is the relative quality of your teammates.

And there's lots of examples of bowlers who were possibly not the best at either bowling or batting, but who made top-level teams because of their combined mediocrity at both. England's Mark Ealham is always one who springs to mind - Paul Collingwood to a certain extent, though not precisely, since he had some additional value as a fielder and vice-captain. It's often a warning sign of a team in a downturn, though, when you stack your team with bits-and-pieces players to try to paper over the gaps in specialist batsmen and bowlers.

The West Indies' Garry Sobers was probably the best example of a genuinely elite bowler and batsman, but even he had a bowling average well over 30 in Tests. India's Kapil Dev might get a look-in as the most balanced world-class all-rounder. Ben Stokes and Andy Flintoff have had their moments for England, but they've usually been cast in the aggressive slugger role in their most celebrated innings, rather than as a pure technical batsman, much like Ian Botham before them. Jacques Kallis was always more batsman than bowler, though he was a very useful bowler at times.

For WG Grace, cricket's own Babe Ruth equivalent, the stats say that he was superb at all parts of the game, but anecdotes suggest that both the rules and the record-keeping during his era were somewhat patchily applied.
   23. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 06, 2021 at 04:04 AM (#6027782)
The West Indies' Garry Sobers was probably the best example of a genuinely elite bowler and batsman,


#22, your knowledge of cricket is decent but slanted terribly towards England(even though you didn't even mention Ian Botham and Gooch who both could bowl and bat a bit)

If you are looking for genuine allrounders, then Hadlee (that's Sir Richard Hadlee to you mere mortals) from NZ and Imran Khan(that's current PM Khan) from Pakistan were both genuine threats with bat and ball. Khan took wickets at a 22 average and averaged nearly 40 with the bat. Now THAT'S an allrounder.

C'mon mate, if you know cricket, then you'd of heard of these guys perhaps?
   24. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 06, 2021 at 07:59 AM (#6027784)
#22, your knowledge of cricket is decent but slanted terribly towards England(even though you didn't even mention Ian Botham and Gooch who both could bowl and bat a bit)


Well, yeah, I'm from England and didn't have the ability to watch many non-England teams until I left home and could afford Sky. But I'm pretty sure I mentioned Botham in the 3rd para, did I not? Gooch . . . nah, not at all. 23 Test wickets at 47 is not material - Root's more of an all-rounder than that, surely? Or was that a trick question?

Hadlee and Khan are excellent choices - my knowledge of Hadlee is a little slanted because he tended to bat at 8 when I started to watch Test cricket, and he averaged under 30 with the bat with only 2 Test hundreds. That's very, very useful (particularly in the NZ teams he represented who needed that in the lower-order) but not exactly elite. Khan was outstanding and definitely a miss on my part.

   25. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: July 06, 2021 at 08:14 AM (#6027785)
I do not understand cricket at ALL. It really looks like something I would enjoy and on occasion I'll flip it on late at night and it's entertaining but I have no clue what is going on.

When I was 8 my father was offered a job in Scotland. We flew over as a family to get the lay of the land. While he was doing his thing with the company my mother and I were entertaining ourselves. One thing my mother was trying to figure out was how this already baseball-obsessed kid would find something he liked in Scotland. We tried watching some cricket, didn't get it then, don't get it now. Wish I did, it looks fun.
   26. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 06, 2021 at 08:28 AM (#6027787)
We tried watching some cricket, didn't get it then, don't get it now. Wish I did, it looks fun.


It's . . . a summer sport. I find that I enjoy both cricket and baseball as much for the atmosphere as the 'which men wearing a specific colour of pyjamas will triumph on this occasion?' element. So for me a lot of cricket's enjoyment is bound up in memories of the Cheltenham cricket festival in my youth, with the beer-and-cider crowd getting increasingly vocal as the shadows lengthened during a one-day game at the weekend, or being able to afford a pair of Lord's tickets to be able to experience the odd tranquility of a 20k seater sports arena in North London with so much history in it. I'm not at all patriotic about my upbringing, but there's some stuff that is fairly uniquely British for which I have deep affection.

Twenty20 games are certainly worth a look for baseball fans. About the same length as a modern MLB game, and though the pace of play is even slower much of the time, I think quite a lot of the rules can be picked up through osmosis. Does the US have any broadcasts or streaming of the Indian Premier League?
   27. Rally Posted: July 06, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6027804)
Yes, unless the bench is so short that if Madden loses the DH when Ohtani leaves the game, he'll run out of position players.


That has happened, and Joe has used pitchers as pinch hitters and even had Griffin Canning playing in the outfield one game.

As a pitcher Ohtani is hitting .238, 5 for 21 with a homer and 2 doubles.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: July 06, 2021 at 10:38 AM (#6027807)


That has happened, and Joe has used pitchers as pinch hitters and even had Griffin Canning playing in the outfield one game.

As a pitcher Ohtani is hitting .238, 5 for 21 with a homer and 2 doubles.


I never thought the Angels would bat Ohtani when he started on the mound because of the loss of the DH when he's removed. I still think it's not the best deployment, though as a baseball fan I'm glad he's doing it.
   29. Rally Posted: July 06, 2021 at 11:51 AM (#6027818)
I was a little surprised the numbers weren't better. The homer came in his first game as a pitcher/hitter, so I guess downhill since then. But still, small sample size. If he goes 3-3 with a pair of bombs tonight his pitcher batting line will look fantastic.

The last two games did not look good for the pitcher/hitting deal. Against the Yankees he didn't help as a hitter, 0-1, and put the Angels in a huge hole by giving up 7 first inning runs. But they won in spite of that with a 7 run 9th that started with Aroldis Chapman.

The game before, Ohtani pitched a great 6 innings, but was 0-3 as a hitter. That one went into extras and the team really could have used a competent hitter as the game went on. The lack of bench options was compounded by some injuries. They pinch hit Max Stassi in the 10th, in the 12th Kurt Suzuki got hurt so they had to move Taylor Ward from left field to catcher. No more position bench players, so Canning went to left field. The 12th started with Canning bunting the zombie runner to third, and ended with Dylan Bundy pinch hitting and striking out with the winning run on second.
   30. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 06, 2021 at 01:58 PM (#6027840)
The Angels are doing something interesting with Ohtani. He always gets at least 5 and usually 6 full days of rest (or "rest") between starts. Given the crapitude of the rest of the Angels' rotation, running a 6-man rotation (or 5 plus bullpen day or whatever they are doing) can't be too beneficial to the team as a whole.
Every time Ohtani starts, Bundy doesn't. It's not as useful as having Ohtani pitch every five days, but it's infinitely better than him not pitching at all.

Ohtani's versatility is also something of a curse, because the Angels don't have a ready substitute when he comes out of a game. No one else hits like him, and when he comes out of a game he's pitching in, the Angels lose both their best hitter and their starting pitcher. If he doesn't pitch deep into the game, that's a strain on the rest of the roster. His excellence makes it worth it, but it's a unique problem. Joe Maddon's a good manager for this challenge; a more by-the-book manager might not be handling Ohtani quite as well.
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 06, 2021 at 02:18 PM (#6027844)
Ohtani's versatility is also something of a curse, because the Angels don't have a ready substitute when he comes out of a game. No one else hits like him, and when he comes out of a game he's pitching in, the Angels lose both their best hitter and their starting pitcher.


But if Ohtani didn't hit for himself when he pitched, a worse hitter would have to start at DH. So without Ohtani in the lineup, they'd get 4+ at-bats out of a lesser DH, as opposed to 2-3 at bats from Ohtani, 1 from that lesser DH, and 1-2 from other pinch hitters. The latter seems like a much better deal to me.

   32. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: July 06, 2021 at 02:40 PM (#6027865)
never thought the Angels would bat Ohtani when he started on the mound because of the loss of the DH when he's removed.


This is the Ohtani! penalty. The Atlantic League is experimenting with a rule whereby the DH is lost whenever the starting pitcher is pulled:

Atlantic League rule change experiments

Interestingly, if this rule change was implemented Ohtani! would be on roughly equal footing with every other team when he's pitching, but undoubtedly would lose at-bats those times he is not pitching.
   33. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 06, 2021 at 08:02 PM (#6027971)
The latter seems like a much better deal to me.
Oh, no question. Juggling the lineup on Ohtani's pitching days is a problem every team would love to have.
   34. Bret Sabermatrician Posted: July 06, 2021 at 08:17 PM (#6027973)
The West Indies have been on ESPN+ pretty much every other morning since May. It took me maybe a week of watching to pick up what all was going on, but cricket is quite enjoyable to have on until a decent Euro game starts.

Also there was a New Zealand ODI 20 or 50 on a few weeks ago where a guy was cranking the #### out of the ball trying to get himself 100 runs before they ran out of balls. So it can occasionally be exciting.

Edit: there's a West Indies-Australia series that starts Friday night on ESPN+. By game 3 everything should make sense. And Cricinfo is like bref on crack.
   35. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 07, 2021 at 04:55 AM (#6028035)
Diving further into the very absorbing Cricinfo site, they offer a few different measures for picking out most successful all-rounders. I quite liked 'at least 100 runs and 5 wickets in an innings' and 'at least 250 runs and 20 wickets in a Test series'. This points out a few famous names:

I Botham (ENG) - 5* (innings) / 3 (series)
G Sobers (WI) - 2 / 3
R Ashwin (IND) - 3 / 1
J Kallis (SA) - 2 / 1
K Miller (AUS) - 1 / 2
R Benaud (AUS) - 1 / 1
Kapil Dev (IND) - 0 / 2
R Hadlee (NZ) - 0 / 1
Imran Khan (PAK) - 1* / 0

The second measure biases towards longer Test series, as many teams play 3-game series more often - this would probably disadvantage Hadlee, Imran Khan, and Kallis among others. * - indicates the player took 5 wickets in both innings of the same Test and scored 100 in one innings, which is pretty dominant. Flintoff, Moeen Ali, Wasim Akram, Shakib Al Hasan, Grieg, Mushtaq Mohammad, Pollock, and many others appear on one list but not another.
   36. Rally Posted: July 07, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6028044)
Lineup worked out well last night. Fletcher’s infield single with 2 outs in the 6th brought Ohtani up for the 4th time. He struck out with the baes loaded, but I can live with that considering the results. His batting spot did not come up again.
   37. homerwannabee Posted: July 07, 2021 at 06:48 PM (#6028175)
Something to consider with Cricket. There are 11 batsmen. And of those 11 usually 4 are bowlers.
So a very good bowler isn't going to make the team if he can't hit. Only a truly legendary bowler will be allowed on a team if they can't hit.
If baseball had 3 of 9 batters be pitchers you better believe they would be better hitters.
   38. BDC Posted: July 07, 2021 at 07:47 PM (#6028186)
There are 11 batsmen. And of those 11 usually 4 are bowlers.
So a very good bowler isn't going to make the team if he can't hit


As Walt says above, though,

They generally bat low in the order (at least at elite levels) and you hope you never get to them

England beat Sri Lanka last week in a one-day international and used only four batsmen, thus winning by eight wickets, which I don't think is extremely unusual. There are a number of instances of a team winning a one-day international by ten wickets - i.e. using only two batsmen, both not out.

   39. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 08, 2021 at 03:36 AM (#6028220)
So a very good bowler isn't going to make the team if he can't hit. Only a truly legendary bowler will be allowed on a team if they can't hit.


I would actually say the opposite: numbers 10 and 11 in your batting order are likely to be picked almost regardless of batting ability. Numbers 8 and 9 will probably be chosen for balance - as you say, you'd need to be pretty elite to be slotted at number 9 as a really bad batsman - but I think quite a lot of teams will happily go with non-entities at 10 and 11. Once you get to 8-9 wickets down, someone averaging 18 with the bat won't be appreciably better than someone averaging 5.

The calculus for me is something like: Pick your best 4 bowlers for the pitch. In addition, try to make sure at least one of your top 6 batsmen is an acceptable or better 5th bowler. If the result is that your 8-9-10-11 batsmen (your "tail") look incredibly fragile - let's say none of them average much above 15 - then kick out the worst of those 4 and look for someone who's not that much worse as a bowler and quite a bit better as a batsman, and put them at 8. If that still looks really bad, consider it at 9 as well. But then you're getting into the territory of 'this is just a pretty bad team, and we're trying to avoid getting embarrassed'.

I grew up watching England teams picking Alan Mulally and Phil Tufnell and Devon Malcolm and their ilk at 10 and 11. Some of those were above-average bowlers at their best (and Malcolm, for one glorious day or so, was a world-beater), but they were seldom much more than that. But you've still got to take 20 wickets to win a Test match, and all-bowl no-bat options can help you do that if you can hide them at the tail end.

EDIT: Certainly you're likely to pick 4-5 all-bat no-bowl options, and no more than 2 of the reverse. But batsmen are also likely to be asked to do a little more in the field, on average.
   40. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 08:21 AM (#6028223)
Most MLB pitchers were good hitters at some level. But then they got to a level where it was acceptable for P not to hit and they stopped working on it. I get that there is only so much time in a day but I also read many stories of how much golf and video games P play on their off days. I'm not saying most MLB pitchers could be average MLB hitters. But I do think if the DH had never been created and the culture wasn't that it was acceptable for P to be non-entities with the bat that they wouldn't be the embarrassing lot that they are.

If Ohtani had grown up in the US, he would either be a P or a LF at this point because at 17 a coach would have made that decision. I'm glad the folks in his life let him stay in both camps and wish others would be left there, too.
   41. villageidiom Posted: July 08, 2021 at 08:53 AM (#6028228)
I do not understand cricket at ALL. It really looks like something I would enjoy and on occasion I'll flip it on late at night and it's entertaining but I have no clue what is going on.
Outs are simpler and less common. Runs are simpler and more frequent. What ends an inning or a match varies depending on what type of cricket is being played and what has been agreed on ahead of time. Most of my confusion in the past is around not knowing what variation of cricket I'm watching, and not remembering the distinction in rules among the types.

Our town just replaced a little league / softball field with a cricket field. We have a zillion baseball/softball fields, so losing one isn't a big deal. But OMG the cricket field is a Big Deal. Every time I go by people are using it.
   42. Rally Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:21 AM (#6028234)
If Ohtani had grown up in the US, he would either be a P or a LF at this point because at 17 a coach would have made that decision. I'm glad the folks in his life let him stay in both camps and wish others would be left there, too.


Ohtani is what he is because he’s strong willed and believed in his ability from the beginning. He was considering signing in the US out of high school. Nippon Ham convinced him to sign there but part of the deal was they had to make some concessions. Like allowing him to try the 2 way think and agreeing to post him for the US when he was ready to move on.

MLB’s drastically reduced international bonus rules helped get him in a situation where he could try both in the big leagues. He was worth at least 150-200 million as a free agent but no team was allowed to give him more than a few million. So the whole recruiting process came down to convincing Ohtani their team was the best environment for him, and convincing him that they would indeed support his desire to pitch and hit.

The vast majority of players, no matter what country they are from, would have been forced to choose one or the other, even if as talented as Ohtani. But maybe he’d still be what he is even if he grew up in the US. He took a few million from the Angels because he wanted to head over in 2018, and certainly knew he was leaving well over 100 million behind by not waiting 2 years. Maybe he would have forced a team to let him play his game. Because even if they think it’s sub-optimal, it sure beats not having Ohtani.
   43. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:53 AM (#6028239)
@42: Sure. I just wish more teams would let guys try. Limiting people before they have to be is bad for everyone (in many fields).
   44. homerwannabee Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:42 AM (#6028245)
You know the MLB did create a rule that could further this.
They created the two way rule in 2020.
That means a person like Ohtani doesn't count against the number of pitchers the Angels have. This means the Angels have in effect 14 pitchers instead of the limited 13.
All one needs to be two way us 20 innings pitched and 20 games played is a position player.
So I could see teams realizing the value of having an extra pitcher.
To be honest, if deGrom wasn't such a great pitcher they probably would try to squeeze him in 20 games as a position player.
   45. Obo Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6028246)
How about if the starting pitcher bats for themselves the team doesn't lose the DH?
   46. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:55 AM (#6028247)
How about if the starting pitcher bats for themselves the team doesn't lose the DH?


How about: When submitting the lineup, each team can name the position for which the DH shall apply for the rest of the game. (Or by default this is P, but they can choose to name a different position). If at any point the player in that position hits for themselves, then the DH will not be available for the remainder of the game for that team.

You might get a few defensive wizards into the starting lineup at SS, or ability to use a backup C in the field without taking your good-hitting C out of the lineup.
   47. Rally Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6028252)
I've always thought that was a good idea. Maybe my catcher is a terrible hitter and I'd rather bat for him.

Wouldn't help the Ohtani situation much though. Say you start Jack Mayfield (worst hitting position player on the active roster) at third, then put Phil Gosselin at DH. Ohtani pitches, but doesn't go deep in the game. You'll need a string of pinch hitters for his spot.

My lineup is
2b Fletcher
P Ohtani
1B Walsh
DH Gosselin (for 3B Mayfield)
RF Ward
C Stassi
SS Iglesias
CF Lagares
LF Rengifo

Only guys left on the bench are Suzuki and Rojas. Missing somebody though. BBref at the moment shows 12 active position players (including Ohtani), and 14 pitchers (also including Ohtani), so they have room for one more. Maybe they sent someone down after yesterday's game but haven't announced the callup yet.
   48. Obo Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:52 AM (#6028253)
Yeah there may be better rule options out there but I was trying to think of the smallest change that would accommodate the happy situation of having a starting pitcher who can mash.
   49. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:55 AM (#6028255)
Wouldn't help the Ohtani situation much though. Say you start Jack Mayfield (worst hitting position player on the active roster) at third, then put Phil Gosselin at DH. Ohtani pitches, but doesn't go deep in the game. You'll need a string of pinch hitters for his spot.


That is definitely a concern, but if I were to look at the silver lining - if your pitcher is in the game as a good hitter, perhaps it tips the scale towards longer outings to avoid taking his bat out of the lineup if he can recover from a shaky start. (And if you need pinch-hitters, of course, then pitchers in your bullpen who can hit are another advantage, since they can pinch-hit or come in as a reliever and hit for themselves when they do it.)
   50. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 08, 2021 at 01:33 PM (#6028264)
[46] That’s how they do it in high school, at least in California.
   51. Darren Posted: July 08, 2021 at 01:49 PM (#6028265)
Couldn't you just start the game with Ohtani at SS and Johnny No Bats on the mound? Then have them switch positions before the game starts, so the DH is now batting for Johnny.
   52. Rally Posted: July 08, 2021 at 02:01 PM (#6028267)
Under current rules, no. For one, I think Johnny would have to face 3 batters before you can pull him, barring injury. But as soon as you moved Ohtani from short to the mound, you forfeit the DH, even if no player is added or removed from the defensive side of the field.
   53. Rally Posted: July 08, 2021 at 02:13 PM (#6028268)
I have an Ohtani-clone in my OOTP league. Unlike the real thing, he did not have TJS after his first year and was a great pitcher and hitter for his first 3 years. But now that Ohtani is excelling in both, my guy went under the knife in April and is serving as a DH-only for the rest of 2021. As for results, mostly the two are the same player, just different timing.

In 2019 his team made the world series. Here's how they used him (His team has a DH, opponent in the non-DH league):

Game 1: On the road, no DH, started in left field

Game 2: Pitched and hit cleanup. In top of the 5th he homered to put his team up 5-1. Got only one out in the bottom 5th, moved to left field to keep his bat in. In the 7th, threw a runner out trying to stretch a single. Team won 7-3.

Game 3: Started at DH and hit a homer

Game 4-5: Also started at DH

Game 6: Back on the road, his team down 3-2 in the series, took the mound again, batting 4th. Allowed 3 runs in 6 1/3 innings. Went to left field after leaving the mound, team lost 3-1.
   54. Greg Pope Posted: July 08, 2021 at 08:31 PM (#6028298)
How about if the starting pitcher bats for themselves the team doesn't lose the DH?

If MLB wanted to tweak the rule for Ohtani, they can just say that the DH is the player who bats in the pitcher's spot. If that happens to be the pitcher, he can stay as DH the whole game, even when he doesn't pitch any more.
   55. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 08, 2021 at 08:46 PM (#6028299)
The crazy thing I just realized is that Ohtani leads the AL in triples, too.
   56. BDC Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:01 PM (#6028300)
I think that the last player before Ohtani to compile ten career Triples and ten career pitcher Wins was Rick Ankiel. Before that, I'm not sure; several guys did it in the early 20th century but Wes Ferrell was one of the last before Ankiel to do it. Bob Lemon only had nine career triples.

Zack Greinke has hit one triple.
   57. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:08 PM (#6028301)
I’ll go look it up but has anyone ever led the league in HR and 3B?
   58. Mefisto Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:15 PM (#6028302)
Willie Mays did it in 1955.
   59. baxter Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:17 PM (#6028304)
My first five guesses were wrong; all players whose careers predate WWII (amd some WWI)
There is at least one such player; there are two at least, both post WWII

Hint: Harmon Killebrew is incorrect, though he was in the top 10 in '61, a year he did not lead AL in HR's
Interestingly, a number of players have led in each category, but not in the same year.

   60. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:18 PM (#6028305)
Ty Cobb a few times.

I'm certain it was not all that rare once upon a time.
   61. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#6028306)
Mays is right. Cobb is wrong though he led both categories in different years.

I found one other after 1900 (and none before but didn’t look st all of them).
   62. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:28 PM (#6028307)
Also, no one has ever led in HR and 3B and thrown a MLB pitch.
   63. SoSH U at work Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:29 PM (#6028308)
Jim Rice is probably the most recent. He did it in 1978 (and was one triple short of doing it in back to back seasons, finishing second in 1977).

   64. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2021 at 09:30 PM (#6028309)
Rice is the other. Mays and Rice fit the bill. Cobb, too, though he only led the league in HR once.
   65. baxter Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:11 PM (#6028315)
Mays & Rice in the same season

Cobb not in the same season.
   66. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:24 PM (#6028319)
Apologies, I completely misread Cobb's page. I still would have thought it happened more often way back when.
   67. Booey Posted: July 08, 2021 at 10:54 PM (#6028324)
Sam Crawford and Lou Gehrig led in both categories, but not in the same year.

Edit: Others who led in both but not in the same year - Ryne Sandberg, Dick Allen, Joe DiMaggio, Johnny Mize, Joe Medwick, Rogers Hornsby
   68. baxter Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:02 PM (#6028330)
There are at least five other such players; one lead in both categories in the same year.
   69. Booey Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:05 PM (#6028331)
Damn, that's some good company. Once the VC puts Allen in, it'll be a group consisting entirely of HOFers.
   70. Booey Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:19 PM (#6028335)
Ah, the immortal Jim Bottomley led in both categories in 1928.

Still technically a HOFer, albeit of dubious merit...
   71. baxter Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:20 PM (#6028336)
There are at least three others; two HOFer's; two did it in the same year (one who did is not in the HOF, obscure player).
   72. Booey Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:25 PM (#6028337)
Frank Baker (in different years). Also at least five 19th century players (ditto), if you want to go really old school. Not sure if you were counting them or not.

Edit: Also no idea wrt Negro Leaguers
   73. baxter Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:37 PM (#6028341)
Bottomley is not one of the three.

One of them is not Big City Jordan; whom I thought was a possibility. In light of thinking about him, I read an interesting SABR post called "Err Jordan" about one Jordan's baseballcards. By the way, does baseball reference list Jordan as having the nickname "Big City?" I was trying to look him up and thought his name was "Walker." But, Jordan it is.

Interestingly, the SABR article notes that Jordan was one of the players who led the league in HR's in his rookie year. The article then lists four other players. Apparently, though, there are FIVE such players, one of whom also led the league in triples his rookie year. Nevertheless, he is the obscure player of the three remaining players to lead a league in both HR's & 3 baggers.
   74. Booey Posted: July 08, 2021 at 11:46 PM (#6028343)
Hmmm. The only players I can think of to lead the league in homers as a rookie are Kiner, McGwire, Judge, and Pete Alonso. None of them were big triples guys...
   75. baxter Posted: July 09, 2021 at 12:15 AM (#6028345)
That is exactly the other four players named in the SABR article. But, apparently, there was a sixth one, who actually was a teammate of Big City Jordan's. It was only because I had to look up Jordan (whom I thought was named Walker) that I saw this player's name as an early NL HR leader. This is a very obscure player. If you had told me his name, I would have guessed he played baseball, perhaps.

The other two are HOFer's; one a household name (for baseball fans, anyway; a couple of generations ago, was national news, one of the brightest stars of all, top 20 WAR among position players); the other probably known to some baseball fans; not at all well known today; been dead for well over a century.
   76. Booey Posted: July 09, 2021 at 12:55 AM (#6028348)
D'oh! Mantle did it in 1955, same year as Mays. Don't know how I overlooked the Mick...
   77. Booey Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:04 AM (#6028349)
Looks like Harry Stovey did it twice (1880, 1891). 1880 was his rookie year, so I assume he's the player in question.
   78. baxter Posted: July 09, 2021 at 02:38 AM (#6028354)
Impressive, added to my knowledge; I think Stovey at one time was the all time HR leader, not 1 of the remaining 2. The rookie/HR was a teammate at one time of "Big City" Tim Jordan; also, you are half right with Stovey. This player more obscure than Stovey.

The remaining player is a late 19th early 20th century HOFer; don't know how to hint about him w/o giving away b/c I don't know much that would not be a dead giveaway (in itself a clue, I suppose).
   79. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: July 09, 2021 at 08:35 AM (#6028364)
The remaining player is a late 19th early 20th century HOFer;


Big Ed Delahanty
   80. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 09:32 AM (#6028369)
FWIW, when I asked my original question, I meant same year.

I missed Mantle because I looked it up on my phone and didn’t realize the page was wider than my screen. D’oh.
   81. Howie Menckel Posted: July 09, 2021 at 10:05 AM (#6028373)
is Harry Stovey supposed to be the "obscure player?"

the Hall of Merit elected him in the 1916 voting

(that vote took place in the real-time year of 2003)

Stovey beat out the likes of Wee Willie Keeler, Iron Joe McGinnity, Rube Waddell, and many more HOFers.
   82. baxter Posted: July 09, 2021 at 10:20 AM (#6028374)
79 Yes Delahanty

80 Yes, understood; just interesting to note the other players.

81 No, I thought Stovey at one time was the all time HR leader; the answer "Harry Stovey" is half correct. Again, the player in question was at one time a teammate of Big City Tim Jordan.
   83. baxter Posted: July 09, 2021 at 10:21 AM (#6028376)
79 Yes Delahanty

80 Yes, understood; just interesting to note the other players.

81 No, I thought Stovey at one time was the all time HR leader; the answer "Harry Stovey" is half correct. Again, the player in question was at one time a teammate of Big City Tim Jordan.
   84. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:14 AM (#6028387)
80 Yes, understood; just interesting to note the other players.

It definitely is. Cobb was one of the first I looked at before deciding just to go to the 3B leaderboard and look at anyone who might plausibly lead in HR. I saw that Cobb had led in both but not the same year and likewise thought that would be cool to look up. But I hate looking at BBRef on my phone. And am lazy. So, thanks for jumping on it.
   85. John DiFool2 Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:37 AM (#6028391)
Someone who said Ohtani is leading in triples completely ignored the elephant in the room:

He's leading with 4. To my surprise several other (non strike-shortened) seasons have had the leader(s) with less than 10, all also from the AL as well (I guess the NL has typically had more triple-friendly parks).
   86. Rally Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6028392)
Del Unser led the AL with 8 triples in 1969, looks like that is the lowest for a leader in a full season.
   87. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6028393)
Well, sure. 3B have grown more and more rare, which is a shame. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this year's 3B leader finished with less than 10. And, yeah, that makes leading in HR and 3B a different accomplishment today than in yesteryear. Leading today in 3B is akin to leading in HR in the deadball era.

So, listening to a zoom call, I scrolled through and found guys who have led in 3B and 2B in the same year. Going back to 1900 (for the batting stats), I found 6. Four are inner circle and two aren't HOFers. One HOFer did it 5 times, another three times and another twice. One of the non-HOFers was also a pitcher and once won 25 games. He'd have likely been an MVP the year he led in 2B and 3B and I think I need to read up on him.

Quite a few guys led these categories in different years. Leading in 2B and 3B in the same year hasn't happened since 1950, though quite a few in the 70s, 80s, and 90s came close.

No one has ever led the league in 2B, 3B and HR in one year.


And, again, I'm doing this at work so may have missed some.
   88. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:49 AM (#6028394)
Also, not only does Ohtani only have 4 triples, he's tied with 5 other guys. He's got a lot of work to stay on top. Of course, that's true of HR, too.

   89. Rally Posted: July 09, 2021 at 11:50 AM (#6028395)
Curtis Granderson had 23 triples in 2007. A triple is usually a double for most hitters, but a fast runner going full speed out of the box stretches it into a triple. These days inside the parkers are very rare, but in the early days of baseball a triple could also be a homer where the runner ran out of gas before he could make it all the way around the baes.

So was Curtis turning doubles into triples? Not really. He also had 38 doubles that year, a career high. 61 non homer xbh. His second highest total was 40, the year prior.
   90. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6028397)
I feel like a lot of guys should bust it out of the box more often and are leaving a base on the table. Can't prove it, but I feel it.
   91. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 09, 2021 at 12:46 PM (#6028400)
To my surprise several other (non strike-shortened) seasons have had the leader(s) with less than 10


One of the many bits of useless trivia taking brain space that could be put to better use is that the only time Carlton Fisk led the league in any major category, it was in triples, with nine. Fisk may have been faster than your average catcher, but I remember being a kid thinking that it's weird that of all the things he could have led the league in, it was triples.
   92. Mefisto Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:07 PM (#6028402)
@87: Wagner is one of them.
   93. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6028403)
Ty Cobb was the guy who led the league in both doubles and triples three times. Rogers Hornsby did it once.

George Brett led the league in doubles twice and in triples three times, but never in the same year.
   94. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:48 PM (#6028410)
Lou Brock led in 2B and 3B in 1968. So it’s happened at least once since 1950.

Musial did it four times, the last in 1949. In 1948, he also hit 39 HR and finished just one behind the league leaders.
   95. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:53 PM (#6028412)
No idea how I missed Brock. I'm apparently bad at this.

Cobb is right: 1908, 1911 and 1917.
Hornsby in 1921.
Wagner did it twice, in 1900 and 1908.

That's two HOFers. Two of the other three - the non inner circle guys - of my original six (which didn't count Brock) are contemporaries of Cobb, Wagner and Hornsby. The inner circle guy who did it five times is neither a contemporary of those guys or Brock.
   96. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 01:57 PM (#6028413)
Dave edited while I wrote. I had Musial down for five. But I screwed that up to. I gave him 1944 for some reason. And, of course, he was out in 45.

   97. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 09, 2021 at 02:00 PM (#6028414)
Also Zoilo Versalles in 1965 and Cesar Tovar in 1970.
   98. bunyon Posted: July 09, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6028415)
So...I got nearly half of them. Sigh.
   99. baxter Posted: July 09, 2021 at 02:44 PM (#6028421)
Very interesting discussion of minutia.

Thanks adding the dates that Wagner accomplished the 2b/3b; I was worried it was Leon. Daddy Wags has one singular accomplishment, being the only, as far as know, big leaguer to appear in a Cassavetes movie (I don't think Berardino or Connors ever were).

To return the off topic minutia, the player who led in HR/3B in the same season and in his rookie year was Harry Lumley. For me a Natick (in crosswordese), but I see he has a SABR bio and James mentions him as the heaviest player of the decade.

Is he a generally familiar player to non-Superba fans?

   100. Nasty Nate Posted: July 09, 2021 at 03:26 PM (#6028429)
2015 was a random Year of the Triples in the American League. 9 out of the top 10 in triples set their career high that year, including crazy outlier totals for Evan Gattis and Eddie Rosario.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Adam S
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogFINAL REGULAR SEASON OMNICHATTER! for September 27 thru Game 162!
(66 - 10:58pm, Sep 28)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogBrother HRs off brother for first time since '75
(17 - 10:57pm, Sep 28)
Last: Never Give an Inge (Dave)

NewsblogNew York Mets Embark on Branding Effort to Build Cred and Win Young Fans
(27 - 10:56pm, Sep 28)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogNBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread
(4668 - 10:55pm, Sep 28)
Last: smileyy

NewsblogThe Cardinals’ Impressive Winning Streak Doesn’t Guarantee October Success
(18 - 8:03pm, Sep 28)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogEmpty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird
(14218 - 7:29pm, Sep 28)
Last: Never Give an Inge (Dave)

NewsblogThe Giants Capitalize on the First Pitch
(4 - 7:16pm, Sep 28)
Last: Ron J

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - Transfer! Kits! Other Stuff!
(322 - 6:08pm, Sep 28)
Last: bunyon

NewsblogShohei Ohtani, on future with Los Angeles Angels: 'I want to win'
(28 - 5:34pm, Sep 28)
Last: John Northey

NewsblogArizona Diamondbacks give manager Torey Lovullo one-year extension despite 104-loss season
(12 - 5:33pm, Sep 28)
Last: Jack Sommers

NewsblogBaseball’s Wall Street-Style Executives Get Titles to Match
(1 - 4:37pm, Sep 28)
Last: winnipegwhip

NewsblogTB progressing with Montreal Sister City plan
(55 - 2:38pm, Sep 28)
Last: Jay Seaver

NewsblogWhy Detroit Tigers, Chicago White Sox stormed the field: 'It wasn't intentional'
(9 - 1:28pm, Sep 28)
Last: zenstudent

NewsblogYus Your Illusion: Yusmeiro Petit and the Well-Hidden Power of Pitcher Deception
(1 - 12:59pm, Sep 28)
Last: CFBF's Results are Certified

Hall of Merit2022 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(184 - 12:06pm, Sep 28)
Last: Dr. Chaleeko

Page rendered in 0.7302 seconds
48 querie(s) executed