OOTP is incredible, but I won't accept any harsh words for "Hardball."

he forked out a bundle of money to order a copy of Diamond Mind, an early computer descendant of tabletop games like Strat-O-Matic. He had it shipped from the U.S. to Hamburg on a 3.5-inch wide floppy disc.

I know life is hard for students but DM didn't cost a "bundle" and it makes it sound like a container load of discs ("He had it mailed" would be more accurate) ... and 3.5-inch floppies is how we all received our copy of DM.

At some point there, OOTP just became too much for me ... I was going to have to hire a real-life assistant GM to help me keep track of everything I had to keep track of to run a team. Also for all its realism (which was good) it started pouring out some pretty ridiculous players. I recall I had a guy with a career line something like 300/310/750. I stopped before it did something really crazy like simulate a player with a 145 OPS+ and 172 ERA+.

I'm a die hard OOTP player now, but the journey was a lot of fun...

1. Hardball (Atari) <--- kept season and career stats in a notebook
2. Earl Weaver Baseball (DOS) <--- kept career stats in a DOS spreadsheet
3. FPS Baseball (DOS/Windows) <--- only had to keep track of statistical errors (eg. didn't credit a run as unearned)
4. High Heat Baseball 2002 (Windows)
5. OOTP 2019+

1. Earl Weaver Baseball
2. Tony LaRussa Baseball (not nearly as good as EWB)
3. OOTP/Diamond Mind.

Also dabbled in Baseball Stars on NES, first console game to save stats. I still prefer Diamond Mind over OOTP because of the simplicity - OOTP does get a bit overwhelming. But I did buy a copy of OOTP this season to do some old seasons.

1. Hardball
2. Ear Weaver
3. Baseball Mogul
4a. Diamond Mind
4b. Strat-o-Matic Online
5. OOTP

OOTP is the most realistic, but Strat with another person will always be the most fun.

At some point there, OOTP just became too much for me ... I was going to have to hire a real-life assistant GM to help me keep track of everything I had to keep track of to run a team.

Genuine problem. I had to turn off a bunch of features to enjoy the game.

I wanted Earl Weaver baseball so bad that I saved up* to help a friend who owned a computer buy a copy of it so I could play it from time to time.
* yeah, that says more about my childhood than the game, whatever

My biggest issue with OOTP is the need to have house rules to avoid fleecing the AI in deals, but that's my issue. No such thing as too much to keep track of (the complexity is, honestly, the reason I buy it) - I really miss how OOTP no longer has a variety of other nations in the baseball universe (for legal reasons).

I always preferred Baseball Mogul - it was kind of a OOTP lite for me...much easier to get in and work through a season or two without going crazy...at some point though each new version just introduced more bugs with an updated roster set, and the once quick support to fix them basically turned into a patch or two a season. I really enjoy OOTP now, but its so in depth that I automate half of what I'm paying to get in the program...still makes its way into the rotation to change things up from Civ, Cities Skylines (and lately Airport CEO and Ostriv). I'm still in a DMB online league, but at this point my interaction with the software itself for that is setting my lineup and rotation once a week during the season - everything else is through a forum.

My buddy had EWB1 and we played it a ton. I copied it onto my hard drive and played it a bunch. Then EWB2 came out and my parents got me it for Easter. I saved up for the expansion disk and rode my bike to the Egghead software store one summer day. My parents were pissed when they found out. I still remember going through the Baseball Encyclopedia and creating players and whole historical teama based on their stats.

I then moved on to Sega baseball games in the mid 90s before moving onto PS baseball games in the late 90s. I then bought a computer out of college and played High Heat for many years. Once that sputtered out I played a few versions of OOTP with i think the last year being 2013.

My buddy had Hardball but I never really cared for it and I had an old CGA baseball games made by a developer that also made a shvtty football game. I think Dimension sports or something like that. Anyway the fastball was not only unhittable but you couldn't even see it. But the thing of it was the pitchers had like no stamina so after like 2 innings the fastball came in nice and slow and you could tee off of them.

I was a MicroLeague guy.

I was a MicroLeague guy.

Oh, lordy, I had forgotten about that. I ran it on a PC Jr.!

Been in a Diamond Mind league since 2003. We're making the move, like many leagues are, to OOTP this season. It's quite daunting. DMB was simple and easy. Not a lot of bells an whistles. OOTP feels like you're being dropped into the middle of an arcade in the middle of a Vegas casino. I'll get there... it's just a lot to take in. Wish there were an option between the two. More team control and organization than DMB, but less buttons and menus than OOTP.

This gives me a chance to ask. Are there any hardcore physics sims on the market? As in action-oriented, but with spin and launch angles and coefficients of restitution and such all figuring deeply into both pitch and batted ball outcomes? Pixel level bat-ball resolutions. Searches on Steam reveal the lamest looking crap.

The proto example would have to be the World Series The Season game found in the arcades in the 80's, which had a lot of the correct physics and pretty spot-on bat-ball interactions.

Pre-personal computers: ABPA. Cards with dice. Recording all data on a paper version of a spreadsheet.

IMO, given the computational constraints at the time, Earl Weaver baseball is probably the greatest computer game ever. According to another Athletic article, EW was not programmed strictly by the probability of outcome but rather by the agency of the players given the motion of the ball. As a consequence, a triple play would occur even though the play was never programmed into the game.

Wish there were an option between the two. More team control and organization than DMB, but less buttons and menus than OOTP.

I feel like Baseball Mogul had this niche for a while, but its fallen off a lot in the last few years...I think the last version I really invested time in was 2017?

I always preferred Baseball Mogul - it was kind of a OOTP lite for me...much easier to get in and work through a season or two without going crazy...at some point though each new version just introduced more bugs with an updated roster set, and the once quick support to fix them basically turned into a patch or two a season. I really enjoy OOTP now, but its so in depth that I automate half of what I'm paying to get in the program...still makes its way into the rotation to change things up from Civ, Cities Skylines (and lately Airport CEO and Ostriv).

I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but Ostriv looks really interesting.

I still play OOTP a fair bit but I haven't bought a new version since 2021. Making totally custom leagues is really great.

These days I probably play more Football Manager than OOTP, even though in general you couldn't pay me to watch a full soccer match. Then again, that's been true of baseball too, these past two or three years. So far this spring I'm optimistic that will change with the clock.

Are there any hardcore physics sims on the market? As in action-oriented, but with spin and launch angles and coefficients of restitution and such all figuring deeply into both pitch and batted ball outcomes?

No.. I don't think so. But for discussion purposes, that was the big selling feature of the FPS Baseball games. The graphics of the games at first looked terrible, but then you played it and something strange happened. The deep physics engine would make the ball spin and slice foul, or hit a base and take a funny bounce, or an outfielder would lose the ball in the lights and actually move accordingly. It was amazing! Because of those realistic actions, suddenly the crappy looking graphics vanished from your mind and it felt like you were watching a real baseball game.

Sadly, I'm not a MAC user and can't seem to get FPS Baseball '98 (the best version IMO) to run in an emulator. But those were the days :)

I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but Ostriv looks really interesting.

The latest update was just released to the alpha with a bunch of new features and its really starting to take shape. There were/are a few bugs, but most people have been pretty forgiving since the developer is working in a war zone at the moment...and he was quick to release a couple of fixes in the days following.

Sadly, I'm not a MAC user

That should read "Sadly, I'm NOW a MAC user".

And I'm sad that FPS Baseball isn't available for the MAC... not sad that I have a MAC. I really need to learn me some better good english so I don't have to clarify my own statements.

At some point there, OOTP just became too much for me ... I was going to have to hire a real-life assistant GM to help me keep track of everything I had to keep track of to run a team. Also for all its realism (which was good) it started pouring out some pretty ridiculous players. I recall I had a guy with a career line something like 300/310/750. I stopped before it did something really crazy like simulate a player with a 145 OPS+ and 172 ERA+.

You should see the season Vlad Jr posted in 2030 for the 126 game winning Cubs... 419/465/763, good for a 219 OPS+ and 12.9 WAR. 58 HRs to go with 161 RBI (and he broke the hits record -- 265 hits). Career-wise, lil Vlad is at 2385 hits - favorite toy projects him to 3750 hits and thinks he's got a 22% chance of getting to 4257 hits. He's also got 486 HRs -- favorite toy projects him 764 and thinks he's got a 51% chance to get by Bonds.

I did:

1. paper and dice, 1982-86
2. Micrloeague 1987-96
3, APBA 1997-2014
4. OOTP 2015+

All fictional player leagues, players come from all over - Transformers, Star Wars, other toys, household pets. Westeros, Elves, Dwarves. Put em all in the league.

Just recently set up a 16 team Intergalactic Baseball Classic

Double post

Microleague went next-level when they added the stats compiler disk...

Of course, it also had some serious gaps... For one thing, using pitcher ERA. For another, I eventually discovered that even nominally "just not slow" players could hit .800 if they constantly attempted to drag bunt for a hit. Also, it was impossible to get caught stealing on a 1st and 3rd baserunner situation so I don't think I *ever* GIDP.

One big flaw in MicroLeague is any time the computer had a fast runner on first you could pitch out and usually catch him. I don’t think the game added enough penalty for to the pitcher for multiple pitchouts.

Bunt for hit - yeah, we had to impose some limits on use of that one.

Microleague didn’t have a schedule function like OOTP or APBA did. So back in the day I had to handle that by hand. I didn’t worry about it making sense, didn’t care what date it was played on, just the game number. I’d play them in any kind of order, so game 162 for team A might be game 140 for team B. Had to write them all down by hand to keep track of W-L record. Stat complier kept track of the stats, but you can’t rely on summing pitcher W-L records because of trades and other player transactions.

The time I spent maintaining the MicroLeague is incredible, looking back on it. Much easier in OOTP.

At some point there, OOTP just became too much for me ... I was going to have to hire a real-life assistant GM to help me keep track of everything I had to keep track of to run a team. Also for all its realism (which was good) it started pouring out some pretty ridiculous players. I recall I had a guy with a career line something like 300/310/750. I stopped before it did something really crazy like simulate a player with a 145 OPS+ and 172 ERA+.

There's so much gold in this one paragraph. Hiring and firing minor league coaches is tedious but if you don't do it yourself, your development suffers badly.

As for wild and crazy players, the initial version of Tatis (and even after the bug fix) was ludicrous. He had like 900 home runs in the main sim I ran.

I started with Microleague on the Pc Jr, then Earl Weaver (friend's Commodore 64), then Strat cards followed by Strat on the computer (friend's Commodore 64 in middle school and then mid-90's PC's in university). I tried OOTP a few times, but I could not get into it.

I will say that my favourite baseball game of all time was the original Baseball Stars. The game play was amazing and the ability to keep the stats in the game was amazing to a boy that grew up to do a PhD in statistics.

I wanted to give a shoutout for another online game that I've played for about 20 years. It's here:
http://gamesite.purebaseball.com/

The game is free, but only works with scheduled league games (i.e., no offline games). There are 20-team and 24-team leagues and you play off last season's stats. 5 games per week for 32 weeks. If you are away, you submit your lineups. If you are home, you download the lineup and play the game, then upload. The website tracks all stats, creates schedules, handles trades, etc.

The game play is text based - "He swings and there is bloop to right. No one is going to catch that and the Rhinos have men on first and second."

Cost is $9.95 per team per month.

The downside is that the code is somewhat old and sometimes things break in the game and they can't be fixed. One example. If you have a saved DH lineup and you try to remove the #9 hitter, you get an error message. You have to move that player to another lineup spot than remove them.

The upsides. One is that it's incredibly competitive. I love visiting this website because y'all know baseball really well. These guys do as well. There are a few strategies that are game specific, but it's not like Strat. If you know baseball, you can pick the game up quickly and build a team - albeit competing against other players who know it well too.
Two is the simulation is incredible. It accounts for platoons, fielding stats, ballpark effects, etc. You can check out this website to see the ability of the game to yield realistic performances:
https://pbstats.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/2021/statleaders/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0xPNlAis1X0fGYU8wkRYwPcdZ6Mxfolm6VBzHX9Qtd5G-zTZmJo_WaGr4

Click on a link like Player (G-I) and you'll see how a player performs across 20+ leagues. (Again, this is given differences in league strength, home field, etc.)
As one example, Mitch Garver's worst season across 21 leagues was
.199/.316/.380 (this was 2021)
His best season was
.301/.407/.714
but his average across leagues was
.260/.365/.525
and his actual 2021 performance was
.256/.358/.517

We fell behind and are just finishing the 2021 season. We will be drafting rookies from 2022 for the upcoming season in a few weeks. This would be the perfect time to join and take over an existing team and snag a top rookie to rebuild the franchise.

Again, this is run more like a hobby than a real business so the interface is not always the easiest. If interested and you need help figuring out how to join you can contact me at kkraiger@gmail.com

He's also got 486 HRs -- favorite toy projects him 764 and thinks he's got a 51% chance to get by Bonds.

If the injury simulator comes up with some really tough luck for this guy, J.H. Waugh would suggest letting it go.

I've bought three-ish versions of OOTP since OOTP 4 and it never sticks for me, unfortunuately. I tried again a few months ago when I had a newborn to stay up with, and I just get so confused by everything there is to do—I wish I could start it off looking exactly like Baseball Mogul and then add features back in until I was done. (The UI itself is a big part of the problem for me—as dated as Mogul looks with all its standard UI stuff, it's easy to get around and find everything if you used... well, Windows 98.)

If you haven't played Mogul in years (or ever) and are looking for something simpler than OOTP—it's still very fun, but the simulation creates a lot of immersion-breaking player careers in a way that's pretty frustrating. The main issue is the hyper-simplified roster rules, I think; because there isn't a 40-man roster or arbitration or Rule 5, teams will fill up with players who've been regulars for 5 years in a row and then abruptly spend two years in the minors where they get 11 combined major league PAs because a team signed him and didn't need him and they can move him up or down whenever they want. Or guys who've spent a decade with the same team and are, say, 81 overall will get replaced by an 82 overall guy who's 27 and has never played in the majors before. Half of the fun of games like this is the way baseball-card stats tell a story, so when the stories don't make sense it's a damper on your enjoyment. (There's also a problem I've run into with the last few versions where it seems like it sometimes can't get the incoming talent distribution quite right, and as a result you have very few stars, very few big-name free agents, etc.)

Some of the older versions (up through 2018) are now free on the website, and if you use Windows you'll have fun with them. (They also run some very good coupons on their newsletter.) If you haven't played since, say, 2008 you'll be surprised at how much got added; if you haven't played since 2010 or so you'll be surprised at how little it's changed.

To echo some other comments here, I fell in love with Baseball Mogul back in 2002 or 2003, and every now and then still play. It was fun to see players develop into HoFers. I've purchased OOTP a few times, but have not been able to get into it. It's too much. They should have some auto settings that can be used to make the experience a bit more accessible until you're comfortable enough to increase the immersion.

I migrated from Mogul to OOTP around 2013 or 2014, and never looked back. If Mogul's what you're comfortable with then power to you, but for me, OOTP was and is just better in every way.

OOTP's extreme customizability is a big reason why. For instance, in reference to #28, OOTP lets you control how the AI weighs ratings (themselves subject to fuzziness depending how much each AI team is spending on scouting, and you can also customize how accurate scouting reports are in general) versus performance. Specifically there are four categories: Ratings; Current Year Performance; Last Year Performance; and 2 Years Ago Performance, and you can set each category to a percentage. Some players swear by 25-25-25-25; others, more like 20-40-25-15. Other things like aging and development speed are customizable, which is good because aging is waaaaay too fast and dramatic out of the box. If you don't set aging way down then even superstars will almost always be washed up by about age 32.

My main issue with OOTP right now is that I'm currently running a sim with the newest version as the Yankees and we're on a 10 game losing streak and 8 games out of first already at the end of April.

My main issue with OOTP right now is that I'm currently running a sim with the newest version as the Yankees and we're on a 10 game losing streak and 8 games out of first already at the end of April.

This thread seems dead now, but I would like to point out that OOTP got it awfully close.