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Wednesday, February 01, 2023

Orioles to decline 5-year Camden Yards lease extension, seek to secure long-term agreement

The Orioles will decline an option to extend their Camden Yards lease by five more years, planning instead to secure a longer-term, more comprehensive stadium agreement, according to two people with knowledge of the situation.

The lease expires at the end of 2023, and the baseball team expects to reach a new agreement by then with the Maryland Stadium Authority, the sources told The Baltimore Sun on Wednesday. They are familiar with the thinking of negotiators, but requested anonymity because the decision had not yet been announced.

Orioles spokeswoman Jennifer Grondahl declined to comment.

The bigger deal is expected to commit the team to Baltimore for many more years, as well as outline plans for upgrades to the state-owned ballpark. It could also include redevelopment projects at or near the site to boost the region’s economy.

With the decision not to exercise the 5-year option, the club and stadium authority are left with 11 months until an extension signed in February 2021 expires. That deal was made when the original lease, dating to 1992, neared its end.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 01, 2023 at 06:20 PM | 77 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: orioles

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 01, 2023 at 07:04 PM (#6115444)
A Joint Statement From Governor Wes Moore and the Baltimore Orioles

Today, Governor Wes Moore and the Baltimore Orioles announced their joint commitment to creating a long-term, multi-decade, public-private partnership that both develops and revitalizes the Camden Yards complex as a magnet for sports tourism and leverages Maryland taxpayers’ investment in the property. Governor Moore and the Orioles look forward to continuing the conversation about the next evolution of this critical partnership for Maryland and the City of Baltimore.
   2. Russ Posted: February 02, 2023 at 12:01 PM (#6115493)
It's a bold strategy Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for him.
   3. jingoist Posted: February 02, 2023 at 03:58 PM (#6115528)
Unfortunately the area near the stadium has gotten increasingly dangerous due to incidents of street crime with no solutions in sight.
All parties responsible for maintaining the peace seem to be at a loss as to what effective steps to take to make the area safer.
Several Baltimore natives I have spoken to recently tell me they no longer feel safe going to either the waterfront, a few blocks away from Camden Park, or to the ballpark unless a large crowd is present.
That issue, more than any “revitalization “ , needs to be addressed for long term success..
I live about 60 miles West of both Camden Yards and Nationals Park and I would much rather, by a factor of 10, go see an Orioles game due to a superior on field product and ballpark esthetics.
But the DC stadium and surrounding area make the trip to DC with the wife in tow a better/safer option.
   4. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: February 03, 2023 at 10:19 AM (#6115567)
public-private partnership

Codespeak for a contract where the private "partner" keeps all the revenue while the public "partner" pays all the costs but enjoys the benefit of gladhanding photo ops with famous people.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 03, 2023 at 10:21 AM (#6115569)
So it seems like the Orioles, Royals, A's, and Rays are all pursuing these kind of districts? Anyone else?
   6. Walt Davis Posted: February 03, 2023 at 01:51 PM (#6115597)
If this works, watch in a few years for "O's non-tender Rutschman, seek to secure long-term agreement." :-)

#5: I think nearly everybody has been looking for these sorts of deals since at least Hicks and the Rangers. This was what Moreno was trying to pull off too, wasn't it?
   7. pthomas Posted: February 03, 2023 at 04:25 PM (#6115631)
Orioles decline 5-year Camden Yards lease extension, seek to secure More Money.
FIFY.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 03, 2023 at 04:54 PM (#6115633)
Unfortunately the area near the stadium has gotten increasingly dangerous due to incidents of street crime with no solutions in sight.
All parties responsible for maintaining the peace seem to be at a loss as to what effective steps to take to make the area safer.


They know exactly how to make it safer. Crime was much lower 10, even 5 years ago. We haven't forgotten how that was done. Just like every other major city, they lack the political will to do what needs to be done.
   9. McCoy Posted: February 03, 2023 at 07:35 PM (#6115652)
Improve the economy?

The city of Baltimore largely had nothing to do with it.
   10. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 03, 2023 at 07:54 PM (#6115653)
They know exactly how to make it safer. Crime was much lower 10, even 5 years ago. We haven't forgotten how that was done. Just like every other major city, they lack the political will to do what needs to be done.


I'm going to plead ignorance here as you seem to have a definitive answer yet don't spell it out, can you enlighten me with your suggestions?

As someone who lives in a big city(Sydney) with very little crime, I could suggest a host of suggestions from our experiences here, but I'd like to see what you have to post?
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 12:53 PM (#6115683)
I'm going to plead ignorance here as you seem to have a definitive answer yet don't spell it out, can you enlighten me with your suggestions?

As someone who lives in a big city(Sydney) with very little crime, I could suggest a host of suggestions from our experiences here, but I'd like to see what you have to post?


NYC was the safest large city in the world 10 years ago. We knew how to do this.

In the US what worked was aggressive policing, and arresting, trying,and incarcerating criminals. A small percentage of criminals commit a huge percentage of crimes, so locking them up does a lot of good.

In recent years, this became viewed as somehow racist (even though the victims of these crimes are black in the same proportion as the perpetrators). Bail has been radically reduced, police have stopped arresting people for quality of life crimes, and have stopped confronting likely offenders. This stuff isn't rocket science.

Just in my state, NY recently made it much harder to try 14-17 y.o.s. as adults for serious crime. Result: shootings and killings by teenagers have skyrocketed. DAs have stopped prosecuting people for shoplifting and petit larceny. Result: stores are being robbed blind and closing.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 12:55 PM (#6115684)
Improve the economy?

The city of Baltimore largely had nothing to do with it.


You mean better than the lowest unemployment in 50+ years, with $15 minimum wage, and jobs going begging?

Crime has zero correlation with the economy. Crime fell during the Great Depression and skyrocketed in the 1960's when the economy was booming.
   13. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 01:33 PM (#6115686)
Bail has been radically reduced, police have stopped arresting people for quality of life crimes, and have stopped confronting likely offenders. This stuff isn't rocket science.


Opponents of bail reform are shockingly ignorant.
   14. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 01:43 PM (#6115688)
You mean crime rose when their was income inequality and dropped when everybody was equal? Interesting.

But crime rising and falling and economy falling and rising would seem to suggest some correlation
   15. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 01:45 PM (#6115689)
Police around the country got in trouble for being fascist thugs. Not surprisingly they have responded with crime stats that say you need fascist thugs to protect you.


While it may or may noy be true that the vast majority of crime is committed by a very small % of people. The police are not capable of only targeting just those people. They consequently target a large amount of people for extremely minor things
   16. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 01:49 PM (#6115690)
Everyone is supposed to equal under the law. Bail reform gets us closer to that ideal, though we still have a long way to go. Elimination of cash bail makes rich and poor equal. The decision to be released until trial or remanded into custody depends on the nature of the alleged crime and the history of the person charged, and eliminates the third factor, which is how much you can afford to bribe the local authorities.
   17. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 01:50 PM (#6115691)
My final note will be that cops were murdering people. That they were doing it is not better than some kid murdering someone.
   18. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:04 PM (#6115693)
It's noted the bleeding hearts overlook income inequality with regard to who are victimized the most by the jump in violent crime. Hint: Other than maybe Paul Pelosi, it's not French Laundry diners who are calling 911 with greater frequency.
   19. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:06 PM (#6115694)
Crime has zero correlation with the economy.

Indeed:
Why is it that poverty is not consistently related to crime? A major reason is that crimes of violence are usually motivated by quarrels, personal grudges, perceived insults, and similar interpersonal conflicts, not by economic necessity. Consequently, a decline in one’s financial condition is not likely to cause violent criminal behavior. This explains why an economic recession or depression does not invariably produce a crime spike. In the second half of the 1930s, for instance, violent crime declined, even though the country experienced some of the worst years of the Great Depression. Likewise, during the Great Recession of 2007–2009, when the economy tanked, crime fell.
   20. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:13 PM (#6115695)
Again, that would suggest a correlation.
   21. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:23 PM (#6115696)
Double post.
   22. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:29 PM (#6115698)
Never mind that the Great Recession didn't reduce income inequality, what exactly are you claiming? That poor folks commit crimes because they're bummed that the income gap between them and Bill Gates just got wider?
   23. Lassus Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:36 PM (#6115699)
Opponents of bail reform are shockingly ignorant.

It's not shocking.
   24. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:52 PM (#6115700)
In recent years, this became viewed as somehow racist (even though the victims of these crimes are black in the same proportion as the perpetrators). Bail has been radically reduced, police have stopped arresting people for quality of life crimes, and have stopped confronting likely offenders. This stuff isn't rocket science.
Like most right wingers, you don't understand the concept of bail. Its purpose is not to keep people in prison.
Just in my state, NY recently made it much harder to try 14-17 y.o.s. as adults for serious crime. Result: shootings and killings by teenagers have skyrocketed. DAs have stopped prosecuting people for shoplifting and petit larceny. Result: stores are being robbed blind and closing.
You watch too much Fox.
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 04, 2023 at 02:55 PM (#6115701)
Wait, I thought there weren't supposed to be political threads on this site. (smile)
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:25 PM (#6115705)
Like most right wingers, you don't understand the concept of bail. Its purpose is not to keep people in prison.

Right, it's purpose is to impose a cost for crimes that we're not going to keep you in prison for, while you're awaiting trial, and to make you show up for trial. If you're simply going to be charged and released, with no conditions, that removes some disincentive for crime.

You watch too much Fox.

I live here, and talk to people who can't wait to flee NYC because it has been deliberately allowed to descend back into disorder.
   27. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:30 PM (#6115706)
Re 22. What are you claiming?
   28. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:31 PM (#6115707)
DELIBERATELY, I TELL YOU!!!
   29. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:40 PM (#6115708)
I live here, and talk to people who can't wait to flee NYC because it has been deliberately allowed to descend back into disorder.
Real bail reform has never been tried!
   30. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:50 PM (#6115709)
Notorious Fox News right-winger speaks out:
"Every time we do our job as law enforcement and city administrators, we're seeing this revolving door catch, release, repeat system that's really playing out all across the country," Adams said, questioning when lawmakers will support policies that "protect the innocent people of this city and this country."

"We have to stop passing laws that protect the guilty," Adams added.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:53 PM (#6115710)
DELIBERATELY, I TELL YOU!!!

The DAs in NY were funded and elected on that platform.
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:55 PM (#6115711)
"Every time we do our job as law enforcement and city administrators, we're seeing this revolving door catch, release, repeat system that's really playing out all across the country," Adams said, questioning when lawmakers will support policies that "protect the innocent people of this city and this country."

"We have to stop passing laws that protect the guilty," Adams added.


Unlike white progressives, Mayor Adams actually care about the victims of crime more than the criminals.
   33. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:57 PM (#6115712)
Alas, the police and people like Adams don't think anyone standing in front of them is innocent.
   34. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:01 PM (#6115713)
The DAs in NY were funded and elected on that platform.
And unapologetically bankrolled by Soros.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:02 PM (#6115714)
And proudly bankrolled by Soros.

Oh now, you've done it. Can't wait for someone to call you an anti-semite ;-)
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:04 PM (#6115715)
Alas, the police and people like Adams don't think anyone standing in front of them is innocent.

Pretty easy to tell someone's not innocent when they have $1000 of merchandise from Duane Reade in a sack.
   37. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:14 PM (#6115716)
"Every time we do our job as law enforcement and city administrators, we're seeing this revolving door catch, release, repeat system that's really playing out all across the country," Adams said, questioning when lawmakers will support policies that "protect the innocent people of this city and this country."

"We have to stop passing laws that protect the guilty," Adams added.


Once a cop, always a cop. Anyone who is not them is guilty of something.
   38. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:16 PM (#6115717)
Pretty easy to tell someone's not innocent when they have $1000 of merchandise from Duane Reade in a sack.


Or holding a cigarette or simply doing nothing.
   39. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:19 PM (#6115718)
Like most right wingers, you don't understand the concept of bail. Its purpose is not to keep people in prison.

Right, it's purpose is to impose a cost for crimes that we're not going to keep you in prison for, while you're awaiting trial, and to make you show up for trial. If you're simply going to be charged and released, with no conditions, that removes some disincentive for crime.
Right: like I said, you don't understand the concept of bail. Every single person out on bail is innocent. Do you not quite get that? (Okay, not every single person; there is the possibility for post-conviction bail. But not for the sort of people you're oh so worried about.)

You watch too much Fox.

I live here, and talk to people who can't wait to flee NYC because it has been deliberately allowed to descend back into disorder.
Then you're talking to people who watch too much Fox. Because the actual data doesn't support these claims.
   40. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:26 PM (#6115719)
Right: like I said, you don't understand the concept of bail. Every single person out on bail is innocent. Do you not quite get that? (Okay, not every single person; there is the possibility for post-conviction bail. But not for the sort of people you're oh so worried about.)

No, they're not innocent, they're "presumed innocent" which is a totally different thing. So, when someone is released without bail, and then gets caught again for the same crime a day later, you really think they should be just cut loose again? What about after 5 times? 10 times?

Then you're talking to people who watch too much Fox. Because the actual data doesn't support these claims.

Murder went up 40% from 2019 to 2021. Is that Fox News? All major categories of crime are way up.

Again, listen to the Black, Democratic Mayor.
   41. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:29 PM (#6115720)
People out on bail committing crimes? That's what you're worried about? Yeah, you're watching too much Fox.
   42. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:34 PM (#6115722)
Compared to 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago crime is down in NYC by either all metrics or almost all metrics.
   43. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:36 PM (#6115723)
No, they're not innocent, they're "presumed innocent" which is a totally different thing. So, when someone is released without bail, and then gets caught again for the same crime a day later, you really think they should be just cut loose again? What about after 5 times? 10 times?
Consider the question begged. They're not "caught again for the same crime." They're accused of the same crime. I think that innocent people — and no, from the perspective of the judicial system, there's no difference between innocent and presumed innocent¹ — should almost never be locked up. The purpose of cash bail is to provide an incentive for them to show up for trial. Not to punish them by locking them up before trial because you think they're guilty.



¹The word "presumed" in this context does not refer to a mental state. The government is not required to think people who haven't been convicted are innocent. It's required to treat them as innocent.
   44. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:36 PM (#6115724)
Murder went up 40% from 2019 to 2021. Is that Fox News? All major categories of crime are way up.
What did it do in 2022?
   45. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:41 PM (#6115726)
Thanks, Adams
   46. bookbook Posted: February 04, 2023 at 04:59 PM (#6115727)
The increase in crime during the period from 2016 forward has two main causes.

First, the systematic efforts by one party (Republicans) to undermine every aspect of American governance, as well as confidence in all American systems from dog catching to National defense to our elections themselves.

Second, the flooding of guns into every situation, thanks to governmental and judicial efforts to make certain guns have rights, but people don’t have the right to be safe from them.

The Trump era has brought dramatic rises of hate crimes, many destructive, many more on the level of assault or murder.

Thank goodness the cops are still out there killing more than a thousand Americans each year, which somehow doesn’t in any way reduce the crime rate.

The way to reduce crime in America is to start treating the bottom 80% of our society like they matter: guaranteed healthcare/shelter/food would be a start.

   47. Lassus Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:00 PM (#6115729)
I live here, and talk to people who can't wait to flee NYC because it has been deliberately allowed to descend back into disorder.

Living in the city is tough. Maybe you should move to Westchester.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:04 PM (#6115730)
What did it do in 2022?

Murder down, but still elevated, every other crime up.

Compared to 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago crime is down in NYC by either all metrics or almost all metrics.

That's simply untrue. Murder, robbery, grand theft auto and felony assault are up significantly over the last 5 years. Violent crime as a whole was up 23% in 2022.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:06 PM (#6115731)
The increase in crime during the period from 2016 forward has two main causes.

First, the systematic efforts by one party (Republicans) to undermine every aspect of American governance, as well as confidence in all American systems from dog catching to National defense to our elections themselves.

Second, the flooding of guns into every situation, thanks to governmental and judicial efforts to make certain guns have rights, but people don’t have the right to be safe from them.

The Trump era has brought dramatic rises of hate crimes, many destructive, many more on the level of assault or murder.

Thank goodness the cops are still out there killing more than a thousand Americans each year, which somehow doesn’t in any way reduce the crime rate.

The way to reduce crime in America is to start treating the bottom 80% of our society like they matter: guaranteed healthcare/shelter/food would be a start.


Wow, literally nothing in there is true.

I gotta stop talking to the BBTF woke brigades. Y'all are simply divorced from reality.
   50. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:15 PM (#6115735)
Compared to 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago crime is down in NYC by either all metrics or almost all metrics.
That's simply untrue. Murder, robbery, grand theft auto and felony assault are up significantly over the last 5 years. Violent crime as a whole was up 23% in 2022.

That's different, snapper, because shut up.
   51. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:18 PM (#6115736)
I gotta stop talking to the BBTF woke brigades. Y'all are simply divorced from reality.
The quality of their arguments further atrophied around the time that they concluded that everyone who disagreed with them was a Russian bot.
   52. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:19 PM (#6115737)
First, the systematic efforts by one party (Republicans) to undermine every aspect of American governance, as well as confidence in all American systems from dog catching to National defense to our elections themselves.
Election denial is noble again!
   53. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:21 PM (#6115738)
The increase in crime during the period from 2016 forward has two main causes. First, the systematic efforts by one party (Republicans) to undermine every aspect of American governance . . .
Baltimore hasn’t had a Republican Mayor for more than 55 years. It’s even longer for some other large urban areas.
   54. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:29 PM (#6115739)
The quality of their arguments further atrophied around the time that they concluded that everyone who disagreed with them was a Russian bot.


So, you on board with the idea that people of little means should be punished for merely being accused of a crime?
   55. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:33 PM (#6115740)
I mean, setting that ugly, un-American notion aside for a moment, wouldn't a system that requires that the decision to remand vs ROR be based on the merits of the case and not whether the accused has money, be more just?
   56. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:35 PM (#6115741)
The way to reduce crime in America is to start treating the bottom 80% of our society like they matter: guaranteed healthcare/shelter/food would be a start.

Poverty and Violent Crime Don't Go Hand in Hand:
Many analysts, along with the general public, believe that poverty is a major, if not the major, cause of crime. But a new study from a Columbia University research group should remind us of something that history has consistently shown: that the relationship between poverty and crime is far from predictable or consistent. The Columbia study revealed the startling news that nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of New York City’s Asian population was impoverished, a proportion exceeding that of the city’s black population (19 percent). This was surprising, given the widespread perception that Asians are among the nation’s more affluent social groups. But the study contains an even more startling aspect: in New York City, Asians’ relatively high poverty rate is accompanied by exceptionally low crime rates. This undercuts the common belief that poverty and crime go hand in hand.
   57. Zonk Knew This Would Happen Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:39 PM (#6115743)
I’m just glad a safe space exists for the cloud shouters to express their displeasure at the world going to hell in a hand basket but still pretending they have a more noble purpose than yellling at clouds.
   58. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:46 PM (#6115745)
So poverty doesn't cause crime it's low bail that does. Thanks
   59. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:47 PM (#6115747)
So, you on board with the idea that people of little means should be punished for merely being accused of a crime?
The Constitution guarantees a right to a speedy and public trial, not for those accused of violent crimes to freely roam the streets until then.

BTW, does your grave concern over the "people of little means" extend to working class J6 protestors who had to post bail for criminal trespass (i.e., not seditious conspiracy) or nah?
   60. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:48 PM (#6115749)
Why don't you guys just come out and say it?
It's black people's fault. You know you want to.
   61. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:56 PM (#6115751)
BTW, does your grave concern over the "people of little means" extend to working class J6 protestors who had to post bail for criminal trespass (i.e., not seditious conspiracy) or nah?


Yes. My principles on this issue are not clouded by partisan ideology. Again, the decision to remand or not should never be based on how much someone can pay. Either one is a danger, or a flight risk, or likely to continue to commit crimes, in which case one should be remanded regardless of their net worth, or one is not, in which case they should not be, regardless of their net worth.

the fact that you phrased the question this way says a lot about you.

The Constitution guarantees a right to a speedy and public trial, not for those accused of violent crimes to freely roam the streets until then.


Consider the question begged. Scores of people spend months in jail for petty crimes because they cannot afford bail. Many spent more time in jail than their alleged crime calls for if eventually found guilty.
   62. Srul Itza Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:58 PM (#6115752)
it's purpose is to impose a cost for crimes that we're not going to keep you in prison for, while you're awaiting trial,


That was never its purpose, as you are undoubtedly well aware.

The Constitution guarantees a right to a speedy and public trial, not for those accused of violent crimes to freely roam the streets until then.


"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." U.S. Const. amend. VIII.

Note that, in the hierarchy of concerns, the first thing mentioned is excessive bail
   63. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:58 PM (#6115753)
Why don't you guys just come out and say it?
It's black people's fault. You know you want to.
Translation: "Look at me. No, look at me! I'm important, damn it, LOOK AT ME!!!"
   64. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 04, 2023 at 05:59 PM (#6115754)
Note that, in the hierarchy of concerns, the first thing mentioned is excessive bail
Yes, let's note the "excessive" qualifier too.
   65. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:03 PM (#6115755)
Is the translation me quoting you?
   66. Srul Itza Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:05 PM (#6115758)
On the other hand -- Ignoring for a moment platitudes and wishful thinking, some people just pose a threat to the community. The loony ones can be remanded for psychiatric investigation and taken off the streets that way.

Low Bail or ROR for small property crimes by people who are likely to show up, should be assumed. If they re-offend while out, and the evidence before the judge is sufficient to demonstrate their guilt on that score, I am not overly worked up by having bail revoked or substantially increased.

But for violent criminals, like gang members, I lose no sleep of them being remanded without bail as "likely flight risks" or just because.

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself; (I am large. I contain multitudes).
   67. Srul Itza Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:09 PM (#6115759)
Yes, let's note the "excessive" qualifier too.


Well, then, let's also consider what it means in the context of the Amendment.

Excessive bail is bail which is much more than necessary or usual to ensure they will make court appearances, especially as it relates to minor crimes. Bail cannot place excessive restrictions on a defendant in relation to the perceived crime.

   68. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:09 PM (#6115760)
The problem is it's the cops who get to decide who is a violent gang member and who isn't and they have a horrible track record.
   69. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:10 PM (#6115761)
On the other hand -- Ignoring for a moment platitudes and wishful thinking, some people just pose a threat to the community. The loony ones can be remanded for psychiatric investigation and taken off the streets that way.

Low Bail or ROR for small property crimes by people who are likely to show up, should be assumed. If they re-offend while out, and the evidence before the judge is sufficient to demonstrate their guilt on that score, I am not overly worked up by having bail revoked or substantially increased.

But for violent criminals, like gang members, I lose no sleep of them being remanded without bail as "likely flight risks" or just because.

Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself; (I am large. I contain multitudes).


That's not a contradiction at all. It's my position, and IIRC, that is the position of the NY and NJ bail reform laws. People seem to confuse, either through honest ignorance, or for more sinister purposes, what bail reform is, or should be. I laid out my position in #61. It is not "Let's let everyone charged with any crime roam free under all circumstances and hope they show up for trial."
   70. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:13 PM (#6115765)
The Constitution guarantees a right to a speedy and public trial, not for those accused of violent crimes to freely roam the streets until then.
I mean, it actually does. The 8th Amendment expressly denies the government the power to set excessive bail.

EDIT: And, I'd add, the 5th and 14th amendments forbid the government from depriving anyone of liberty without due process.
   71. Srul Itza Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:16 PM (#6115767)
Coke, Dave?

The problem is it's the cops who get to decide who is a violent gang member and who isn't and they have a horrible track record.


Uh, no. It is the Court in setting bail.
   72. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 04, 2023 at 06:18 PM (#6115768)
I mean, it actually does. The 8th Amendment expressly denies the government the power to set excessive bail.

EDIT: And, I'd add, the 5th and 14th amendments forbid the government from depriving anyone of liberty without due process.


I think snapper is on team "Every amendment after the second should be thrown out."
   73. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2023 at 07:01 PM (#6115772)
Uh, yes. The police are the ones that do the "investigating" of the defendants.
   74. Srul Itza Posted: February 04, 2023 at 08:06 PM (#6115773)
You should really read more judicial opinions. There are a lot of courts that have grown increasingly skeptical of police testimony.
   75. greenback does not like sand Posted: February 04, 2023 at 09:01 PM (#6115776)
You should really read more judicial opinions. There are a lot of courts that have grown increasingly skeptical of police testimony.

I've read too much Radley Balko to accept this without an instinct to say "yeah, but..."
   76. McCoy Posted: February 05, 2023 at 07:09 AM (#6115785)
Re 74. This is supposed to disprove my point?
   77. McCoy Posted: February 05, 2023 at 12:50 PM (#6115807)

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