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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   5601. KronicFatigue Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5681059)
GSW really wants to keep stopping the clock here?
   5602. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5681060)
Is the review criteria for a 3 similar to MLB - does it have to be "clearly wrong" to change it?
   5603. zenbitz Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5681061)
As long as capela shoots 50% from ft. But yeah, I was wondering what would be uglier than Harden jumping into defenders.
   5604. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5681062)
It gets Capela off the floor. It trades 2 points for 1. It's a reasonable move, it's just ugly as sin.
   5605. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5681063)
GSW really wants to keep stopping the clock here?

They're comfortable giving them 1ish point each time down to avoid the 3.

EDIT: Too slow.
   5606. tshipman Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5681064)
Harden is mentally soft. He can't handle adversity. Normally I think that would just be hot take garbage, and maybe it still is. But I'll always be a skeptic after how he closed out the Spurs series last year.

Also, dude needs to get in better shape. Someone needs to take his ass to some summer boot camp and make him get in like 40 miles a week.


I think some of this is on D'Antoni, isn't it? Like, he cuts the rotation down so harshly, and goes with the "ride the horses" strategy, but it makes guys look bad when they get injured or get exhausted.
   5607. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5681065)
Going back to how dominant Golden State has been in third quarters: They have outscored Houston by 68 points in the third in this series.
   5608. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:18 PM (#5681066)
I don't know that you can blame d'Antoni here. Chris Paul makes all the difference for them and he's not here to stabilize them.

   5609. JJ1986 Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5681067)
What the ####, James?
   5610. spivey Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5681069)
Re: 5607

I guess the scoreboard is all that matters, but I don't think Golden State was dominant in this 3rd quarter. In fact I think they were probably outplayed. They just varianced it up. Their normal 3rd quarter blitzes I feel like are their defense just getting into you and them getting less sloppy.

Houston got great shots. The refs really let the Warriors play physical at a time that helped them. I think if those drives to the basket where Gordon/Ariza were hammered were called fouls like they should have been, it may have changed the offense a bit. I mean they shoot a lot of 3s but it seems like they took it to another level there - where almost literally every shot was a 3.
   5611. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5681070)
It was there for the taking for Houston, even without Paul.
   5612. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5681071)
Ummm. Houston. This is game 7.
   5613. Tin Angel Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5681073)
Ummm. Houston. This is game 7.


Would you say Houston has a problem?
   5614. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5681074)
The explanation for the oh-fer is most likely the collective sphincter tightening that results from seeing a large lead dwindling. And that was a direct result of, well, everyone knows what that was a result of.
   5615. PJ Martinez Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5681075)
Is it flukish that both of these seven-game Conference Finals offered surprisingly little in the way of really entertaining basketball, or is this a sign of things to come -- and something the NBA will need to fix?
   5616. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5681076)
I don't know that you can blame d'Antoni here. Chris Paul makes all the difference for them and he's not here to stabilize them.

This.

Also, there were 3 very obviously missed non calls on Harden 3s that amount to a potential 10 point swing. That's brutal in a home game 7. However, at this point, it does feel like Harden has earned the questions surrounding his ability to perform in the postseason.
   5617. JJ1986 Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5681077)
Ryan Anderson played 8 minutes and was -12.
   5618. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5681078)
I do think the pace of the 3Q favored the Warriors, but even with that said I agree they dodged a huge bullet. There's nothing, not fatigue, not defense, not pace that can quite explain a 29 for 30 stretch from 3. They started 6/15!
   5619. tshipman Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5681079)
Houston got great shots. The refs really let the Warriors play physical at a time that helped them. I think if those drives to the basket where Gordon/Ariza were hammered were called fouls like they should have been, it may have changed the offense a bit. I mean they shoot a lot of 3s but it seems like they took it to another level there - where almost literally every shot was a 3.


I don't think you can blame the refs for Houston missing a crap-ton of 3s. The 3rd quarter was called bizarrely roughly where basically attempted mugging was no longer a foul for about 9 minutes there, but it was on both sides.
   5620. spivey Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5681080)
The season was great and although the Cavs/Warriors happened like people expected it was far less of a certain thing and more of a roller coaster ride than I think anyone would have expected. But now that we're there for Cavs/Warriors Episode 4, I just don't care. Am I alone in that? Or are people excited? I guess Golden State's shown a bit more vulnerability this year than last, but I figure even with Iguodala out that Durant = LeBron in output and then the rest of the chips fall down in a way that's highly advantageous to the Warriors.
   5621. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5681081)
Curry played a good portion of the game?
   5622. JJ1986 Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5681082)
I think the two non-calls on Jordan Bell in the second were terrible calls, but I'm not sure the one against Klay actually was a shooting foul. He put his hand on Harden before Harden was doing anything.
   5623. aberg Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5681083)
I have started to wonder about the long minutes and short rotations in the playoffs. If guys could go 40+ nightly, they'd probably do it more. Teams are playing 20-25 playoff games. That's a ton of minutes. Seems like it has been in evidence lately.
   5624. Tin Angel Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5681084)
Marv Albert: "And Curry...also...played a lot of minutes in game 6."
   5625. spivey Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:27 PM (#5681086)
I don't think you can blame the refs for Houston missing a crap-ton of 3s. The 3rd quarter was called bizarrely roughly where basically attempted mugging was no longer a foul for about 9 minutes there, but it was on both sides.

I thought that the Warriors were pretty heavily favored by the whistle in the 3rd. I thought Houston was favored by the level of physicality they were allowed in the first half. That said, the refs didn't decide this game, the Rockets shooting did.

Both teams were awful at the line too, giving additional credence to the idea of both teams being tired.
   5626. smileyy Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:28 PM (#5681087)
I'm hopeful that LeBron can LeBron a game or two. Regardless, he's the playoff MVP, no? Not that there is such a thing.
   5627. aberg Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5681088)
Yes, Houston had plenty of chances and bricked them. Those three non calls on harden threes were unambiguous and took the margin of victory off the scoreboard.
   5628. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5681089)
The 3rd quarter was called bizarrely roughly where basically attempted mugging was no longer a foul for about 9 minutes there, but it was on both sides.


I don't really agree. The refs basically switched the way they had called the game in the first half. The Rockets were getting rewarded then for aggressively attacking the basket, and then they didn't get those same calls. On top of that, as people pointed out (berg, e.g.) there were obvious missed calls on Harden threes. That wasn't applied equally. That damaged Houston during that stretch and benefited GSW.
   5629. Chicago Joe Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5681090)
If Steph or Durant get hurt and Paul is healthy-ish, does Houston win?
   5630. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5681091)
What is more likely, the Cavs getting swept or the Cavs winning one game?

I can't imagine how the Cavs can win that series. There's like no chance.
   5631. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5681092)
David Alridge, the one guy who's competent on the TNT crew.
   5632. SteveF Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5681093)
I don't think you can blame the refs for Houston missing a crap-ton of 3s.

You can sort of blame the refs for Houston missing the 3's they were fouled on. But you can't blame the refs for 7-44.

Chances of missing 27 threes in a row if you shoot them at:
10% = 5.8%
20% = 0.2%
30% = 0.006%
35% = 0.0009%
   5633. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5681094)
Harden was 19 for 78 from 3 in the series, if I just counted correctly. 24%.
   5634. Tin Angel Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5681095)
Ariza was 0-12. I'm not a math guy but that doesn't seem great.
   5635. Howie Menckel Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5681097)
is it flukish that both of these seven-game Conference Finals offered surprisingly little in the way of really entertaining basketball, or is this a sign of things to come -- and something the NBA will need to fix?

I saw some article the other day claiming that the NBA product now sucks, but fans are talking themselves into saying it's great - and thought, what a dumb article.

well, if the ratings and ticket sales are there, then it doesn't suck on the business side. but the massive amount of teams giving up for years, the Globetrotter-style "chuck up some threes," and other issues - well, I guess I go back to saying if the fans like this, then....

but the next time the NHL and NBA Finals are head-to-head (if they are), I would watch the NHL live, stay off the grid, and then FF the hell out of the NBA game. the level of excitement at this point for a casual fan is like watching a MMA honey badgers fight as opposed to a game of competitive bridge.

I exaggerate.

a little.
   5636. smileyy Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5681098)
I can't believe HOU crapped the bed against an entirely beatable Warriors team.
   5637. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5681099)
If Steph or Durant get hurt and Paul is healthy-ish, does Houston win?

If Paul is healthy-ish, I think they win one of the last two games regardless of the health of Durant or Curry.
   5638. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5681100)
"If Steph or Durant get hurt and Paul is healthy-ish, does Houston win?"
Pretty likely, yeah.
   5639. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:36 PM (#5681101)
I watch a decent amount of NBA and it's a great product. These haven't been great games of late, no.
   5640. EddieA Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:36 PM (#5681102)
Odds of me watching any of another Cavs-Warriors final are approximately equal to those of me playing in the series.

Safe to say it's not possible for a team with Chris Paul playing to miss 27 straight 3s.
   5641. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5681104)
I agree that the product hasn't been great in the conference finals, but I don't think it's anything structural. Like the NFL and MLB, the NBA could probably stand to shorten the regular season.

D'Antoni has always played a short rotation, and if CP3 isn't hurt I think we have an epic WCF Game 6 and 7 either way. Toronto robbed us of a fresh ECF with their weird, Cavs specific choking. Philly wasn't quite up to it and if Kyrie is still healthy I think Boston is in the Finals.
   5642. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5681105)
I'm with you, Howie. I'm not a fan of the aesthetics of the 3 pt game Houston and other teams play. Watching Al Hoford shoot threes is not good basketball. That said, the level of athleticism, the drama of guys fighting, keeps me paying attention.

I do love the hockey as well. In Lou I trust.
   5643. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5681106)
The non-script Finals logo is pretty terrible.
   5644. tshipman Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5681108)
On top of that, as people pointed out (berg, e.g.) there were obvious missed calls on Harden threes.


If your game is built around tricking the refs into calling fouls, is it really on the refs if they don't call them?

Here's one of them (ignore the title, as I didn't capture it). That's not a basketball play. I'm not upset that didn't get called 3 shots.
   5645. Tin Angel Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5681109)
but the next time the NHL and NBA Finals are head-to-head (if they are), I would watch the NHL live, stay off the grid, and then FF the hell out of the NBA game. the level of excitement at this point for a casual fan is like watching a MMA honey badgers fight as opposed to a game of competitive bridge.


I think I'm in the same boat. I'm not sure if it's just these particular playoffs or what, but I could easily get everything I need from three minutes of highlights.
   5646. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5681111)
Love the style of basketball being played and excited for Warriors-Cavs 4 despite being certain that the Warriors are going to win because it's sort of fun to watch LeBron carry around the sack of garbage that is the Cavs roster.
   5647. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5681112)
Here's one of them (ignore the title, as I didn't capture it). That's not a basketball play. I'm not upset that didn't get called 3 shots.


Yeah, well, you're wrong. That is a basketball play in every way. That's a legit shot and the guy grabbed his arm. That's a textbook foul.
   5648. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5681113)
Here's one of them (ignore the title, as I didn't capture it). That's not a basketball play. I'm not upset that didn't get called 3 shots.

How is Harden not making a basketball play? He's shooting a three from a spot on the floor where guys do shoot threes and the defender is holding on to his elbow. That's a TERRIBLE non-call.
   5649. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:44 PM (#5681114)
Kyrie Irving for Kris Dunn and #7 is laughable. I thought these hypothetical trades were only made when beneficial to the 6ers.

1: players who get traded almost always have less value than you expect
2: kyrie's value is heavily dependent on his ability to change direction at full speed, which is not easy to do with a chronically dodgy knee.

   5650. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:45 PM (#5681115)
Love the style of basketball being played and excited for Warriors-Cavs 4 despite being certain that the Warriors are going to win because it's sort of fun to watch LeBron carry around the sack of garbage that is the Cavs roster.

What if the Cavs get crushed by 20-30 points a game? It's a legitimate possibility.
   5651. spivey Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:46 PM (#5681116)
I agree that the product hasn't been great in the conference finals, but I don't think it's anything structural. Like the NFL and MLB, the NBA could probably stand to shorten the regular season.

It’s a shame because I do think there are some casual fans who have heard how much better than NBA is since the early post-Jordan days and were willing to give it a shot. I like the every other day off thing. That’s not too much to play, they play more in the regular season. Hopefully they keep doing it and teams adjust.

They do need to think about some of the foul calls. The rip through stuff is inconsistently called and is awful entertainment for hardcore and casual fans. The fouls to stop fast breaks. They should at least start considering moving the 3 point line back. I think it’s good for the nba for it to be part of the strategy and entertainment but not the cornerstone.
   5652. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5681117)
They should at least start considering moving the 3 point line back. I think it’s good for the nba for it to be part of the strategy and entertainment but not the cornerstone.

That would REALLY make the Warriors unstoppable.
   5653. Chicago Joe Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5681118)
Cmon stiggles, you shouted down my less ridiculous Ball trade and throw this #### out there?
   5654. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5681119)
Ha. BTW: That Harden no call tship linked: if he gets the call and hits 2/3 FTs, they're up 14. That stuff hurt them.
   5655. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5681120)
Watching Al Hoford shoot threes is not good basketball.

That's a weird example- Horford shot 42.9% from three this year! Just use Aron Baynes.
...
Count me in for being disappointed in the Finals matchup, but otherwise very high on the current NBA product.
   5656. Chicago Joe Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5681121)
I wonder if some sort of tax-equalization scheme might help the E-W competitive balance problem?
   5657. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:52 PM (#5681122)
What if the Cavs get crushed by 20-30 points a game? It's a legitimate possibility.

It's completely irrational, but because LeBron is LeBron I'm always going to believe he has a greater shot than I should. In Episode 1 Delly was his second best player and he pushed a superior GS team to 6 games. In Episode 2 he came back from 3-1 down against a 73-win behemoth to win. In Episode 3 (memory might be off here), he actually played a vastly superior GS team to a tie during the minutes he was on the floor over the course of the series. LeBron is going to lose and very likely lose handily, but I'm also going to enjoy watching him take on the challenge.
   5658. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5681123)
2: kyrie's value is heavily dependent on his ability to change direction at full speed, which is not easy to do with a chronically dodgy knee.

Huh? I'm not sure I've ever seen Kyrie do anything at full speed.
   5659. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5681124)
I watch a decent amount of NBA and it's a great product. These haven't been great games of late, no.

i think it'd be a mistake for the NBA to rush through any major changes this summer, but if i was adam silver, i'd experiment with taking away the corner 3 in the D league (basically making the 3P line a full arc).
   5660. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5681125)
Unrelated to any ongoing discussion, not a lot of guys to compare to, but how weird is it that LeBron has been to 9 Finals and 2 teams (Duncan Spurs + STEPH Warriors) account for 7 of them?
   5661. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2018 at 11:55 PM (#5681126)
The foul tship linked is not a shooting foul. The contact is before the gather. That's the rule.
   5662. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:00 AM (#5681127)
In Episode 3 (memory might be off here), he actually played a vastly superior GS team to a tie during the minutes he was on the floor over the course of the series. LeBron is going to lose and very likely lose handily, but I'm also going to enjoy watching him take on the challenge.

They got torched when he was off the court and this Cavs team is significantly worse than last year's. LeBron was able to take some plays off offensively against the Warriors last year because Kyrie could create some offense. The Cavs have no one that can do that.

LeBron has been great in the playoffs offensively but the defensive effort has been lacking. Understandably so because of the load he has had to carry. But the Cavs will get torched if he takes plays off defensively.

Basically, LeBron has to play 45+ minutes of outstanding offensive and defensive basketball for the Cavs to have a shot. After playing 100 games already this year. In his 15th season. With something like 55000 minutes in his NBA career.
   5663. Chicago Joe Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5681128)
Wilt's first ten seasons or something ended against the Celtics. Not exactly the same...
   5664. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5681129)
They do need to think about some of the foul calls. The rip through stuff is inconsistently called and is awful entertainment for hardcore and casual fans. The fouls to stop fast breaks. They should at least start considering moving the 3 point line back. I think it’s good for the nba for it to be part of the strategy and entertainment but not the cornerstone.


I agree on the rip through. That one drove me nuts when KD did it to the Warriors on OKC, and I hate it when Harden does it too. I think tilting the way the game is called back toward the defense a bit is probably right.

Cmon stiggles, you shouted down my less ridiculous Ball trade and throw this #### out there?


Forget it, it's STIGGLES.

Personally, I'm not that excited to see GS vs. CLE IV either.

I do think the one potentially structural issue in the NBA is the East/West balance. We've litigated that one up and down though, and I don't have a great feel for what is really causing that or what one would do about it, beyond a 1 through 16 playoffs. I'm not sure we'd love that either given the increased travel demands and how that might impact on court quality.
   5665. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5681131)
Basically, LeBron has to play 45+ minutes of outstanding offensive and defensive basketball for the Cavs to have a shot. After playing 100 games already this year. In his 15th season. With something like 55000 minutes in his NBA career.

Right here is where you sold me. Also, LeBron is my favorite athlete of all time so I may be slightly biased.
   5666. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:06 AM (#5681132)
I wonder if some sort of tax-equalization scheme might help the E-W competitive balance problem?

i suspect the competitive balance between the east and west will equalize as BOS and PHI ascend in the next 2-3 years.

if it doesn't, the NBA has a few options:
1: seed the playoffs 1-16.
2: swap the central (IND, DET, CLE, MIL, CHI) and southwest (DAL, MEM, NOP, HOU, SAS) divisions.
3: follow the NHL's lead and go to a 4 conference setup
4: confiscate teams that have terrible ownership (NYK, BRK, PHO, SAC)
   5667. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5681135)
   5668. smileyy Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5681136)
I, too, suspect that the East/West divide will even out.
   5669. Howie Menckel Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:35 AM (#5681139)
I will say that NBA Commish Silver seems willing to try to address many of these issues. he's a smart guy - but he doesn't rule with an iron fist.
   5670. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:56 AM (#5681143)
Is it flukish that both of these seven-game Conference Finals offered surprisingly little in the way of really entertaining basketball, or is this a sign of things to come -- and something the NBA will need to fix?


I think a lot of that is that we have seen all the key guys before, that the outcomes were the same we have seen three years running, that Paul got hurt, that the two Eastern teams are not especially good, and the rest was the lack of close games. Also, in the 3P era, games get ugly if teams are missing 80% of them. Other thoughts:

1. Agree with most of what I am reading about G7, and it is not like it was a hard game to figure out. But the bottom line is pretty much that GS has Curry and Durant, and no one else does. Maybe Houston wins with Paul, but maybe they don't.
2. Variance definitely affected this game, but I also think there are other factors, as discussed.
3. This locks old-school narratives about D'Antoni (die by the 3) and Paul (can't count on him in the playoffs) into place.
4. I think this turn of events definitely increases the chances of James' wanting to go to Houston.
5. I am not at all excited about the Finals.
   5671. SteveF Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:58 AM (#5681144)
Huh? I'm not sure I've ever seen Kyrie do anything at full speed.

Aside from getting out of Cleveland! Also, he probably doesn't want to accidentally run off the edge of the Earth.
   5672. tshipman Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:09 AM (#5681145)
It’s a shame because I do think there are some casual fans who have heard how much better than NBA is since the early post-Jordan days and were willing to give it a shot. I like the every other day off thing. That’s not too much to play, they play more in the regular season. Hopefully they keep doing it and teams adjust.

They do need to think about some of the foul calls. The rip through stuff is inconsistently called and is awful entertainment for hardcore and casual fans. The fouls to stop fast breaks. They should at least start considering moving the 3 point line back. I think it’s good for the nba for it to be part of the strategy and entertainment but not the cornerstone.


1. I think there are too many old guys dominating the game right now. There's this whole missing generation in the NBA, which should be ascending right now. The guys between 26 and 28. That was supposed to be Kawhi, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose. That generation has largely failed to dominate the game and is being passed up by Giannis, AD, etc. That's what's causing some of the griping about guys looking tired.
2. The foul hunting and 3p bombing stuff is weird. On the one hand, the most extreme foul hunters and 3p gunners get punished in the playoffs. On the other hand, the same strategy is effective all year. The NBA needs to get serious about fines for manipulation or some other solution.
3. I think it's at least time to consider moving the 3p line out.
4. A large part of why the Finals is not compelling is because Cleveland is not a good team. They played to a negative point differential against Indiana and Boston and still won.
5. I think the East/West thing is dumb, but obviously has not fixed itself. Just re-seed in the playoffs.
   5673. Booey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:21 AM (#5681147)
The foul tship linked is not a shooting foul. The contact is before the gather. That's the rule.


Yep. A lot of people seem to forget that the league instituted the "James Harden rule" this past offseason, officially defining those types of plays as non shooting fouls (it should have been a foul on the floor though rather than a no call). Gone are the days when a player can just fling the ball at the hoop whenever he feels contact and get continuation free throws (and good riddance).

I, too, suspect that the East/West divide will even out.


People have been saying this for 20 years. Still waiting...
   5674. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: May 29, 2018 at 03:26 AM (#5681149)
Everyone hates the Euro foul right? I absolutely hate it. My whacky idea for dealing with the Euro foul is allowing one pass and shot after the whistle with the defense frozen. So if a teammate has pulled ahead of the pack in transition he can launch a three or mid-range two without any defensive pushback. (The offense freezes too on the whistle — with the caveat that the ball can be passed forward and shot from where the teammate had been standing) Then the coup de grace: you can keep the points off the frozen shot or, if missed, still get two free-throws. This may sound extreme, but intentional fouls to stop transition offense bring nothing fun to the game. As for the overall product: who should ask? I’m a Knicks fan. Its always a cloudy day in my basketball neighborhood. I thought Rockets-Cavs could have been a hell of a competitive series.
   5675. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 29, 2018 at 08:17 AM (#5681158)
4. A large part of why the Finals is not compelling is because Cleveland is not a good team.

A visitor from Mars who watched last night's game might also be thinking the same thing about Houston, a team whose idea of offense seems to be isolation and launching random three point shots. I know that Paul had to sit out the game, but it's not as if other teams haven't adjusted to the loss of a key player.

And pardon me if I don't buy the hype about Harden. He's not on the same planet with LeBron. Great players play like great players in game 7.
   5676. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5681161)
Warriors going hack-a-Capella here is so annoying, and feels especially tacky coming from the Warriors up by double digits.


Agree. Also think in this case it should be shortened to "hackapella"

What I'd like to see considered is eliminating the 3 point shot entirely until the final 2 minutes. Force teams to run their offenses with the goal of getting a close, high percentage shot. For the final 2 minutes, the 3 pointer would be made available for strategic purposes. This is essentially how the 3 pointer was used in the first decade or so after it was added to the game. It was not seen as a replacement for mid-range jump shooters like Rolando Blackmon (an all-star shooting guard who made a total of 20 3 pointers in his first 7 seasons) or for a post player. But the 3 point option was on the table if you were down 3 in the final seconds.
   5677. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5681173)
What I'd like to see considered is eliminating the 3 point shot entirely until the final 2 minutes. Force teams to run their offenses with the goal of getting a close, high percentage shot. For the final 2 minutes, the 3 pointer would be made available for strategic purposes.

This might be the worst idea I have ever heard. If that happens, I am out on basketball.

It will eliminate teams selecting for shooting almost entirely, since there is not enough value in it. And it will just be a bunch of big men, with no skills other than being tall, trying to post each other up. Hard pass.
   5678. SouthSideRyan Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5681174)
Adjustments to the 3 point ball seems like an overreaction to 2 terrible shooting nights by exciting teams who were missing their playmaking PGs
   5679. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5681185)
Do we want to do our thread Mock Draft this year? This feels like a good time to start getting ready with the limited schedule of games this week.
   5680. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:43 AM (#5681186)
3. This locks old-school narratives about D'Antoni (die by the 3) and Paul (can't count on him in the playoffs) into place.

I kinda disagree. I think both end up coming off pretty good here. Maybe history will change this take - people often forget nuance and just remember winners and losers as time passes. But I think D'Antoni and Paul come out of this looking pretty good. I would, roughly, call this series a draw. They lost in 7 and when healthy were up 3-2. They also had big-ish leads in both games without their co-best player.

I think Paul's narrative changes pretty dramatically from "can't count on him in the playoffs" to "injury prone, but pretty clutch" with this post-season. He also had the huge closeout game against Utah.

I feel like D'Antoni's current style is different from his Suns one. It's much more iso-heavy but I feel like that's in large part due to personnel, Harden in particular. I think D'Antoni comes off looking pretty well. I think most people would argue Golden State has more talent and Houston was right there. But that said...

Harden had a pretty poor shooting series. He scored at a pretty good rate but his efficiency was way down. Durant and Curry were significantly more efficient than Harden/Paul/Gordon. I think there is a real question on if physically, Harden can handle the LeBron type load of doing all of the ball handling, creating, and much of the scoring. I don't think he's physically capable of that. Which, I guess is why they brought in Paul. Yeah, kind of a bummer about the injury.
   5681. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5681187)
1. I think there are too many old guys dominating the game right now. There's this whole missing generation in the NBA, which should be ascending right now. The guys between 26 and 28. That was supposed to be Kawhi, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose. That generation has largely failed to dominate the game and is being passed up by Giannis, AD, etc. That's what's causing some of the griping about guys looking tired.

I think this is a really interesting point that I haven't seen raised elsewhere. The failure of Wall/Washington, in particular, to rise has been a real disappointment. Before Philly and this iteration of the Celtics, they were supposed to be the team to challenge LeBron's reign in the East, and they have just plateaued and probably even gone backwards.
   5682. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5681188)
4. I think this turn of events definitely increases the chances of James' wanting to go to Houston.

I've taken the complete opposite point from this postseason- he would be crazy to leave the East.
   5683. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5681190)
I don't think anyone considers Harden to be near James, in terms of peak ability. I do have Harden as my MVP, a regular season award.
--
I only have a handful of crazy sports ideas, I think. One of them is that threes should be worth 2.5 points.
--
East v. West: One explanation I've heard is that the west has "smarter" owners. If so, hard to do much about that.
   5684. Lassus Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:52 AM (#5681191)
The guys between 26 and 28. That was supposed to be Kawhi, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose.

If you had set the over/under on Blake Griffin being 32, I definitely would have taken the over. (He's 29)
   5685. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5681196)
That was supposed to be Kawhi, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose.
Plus Derrick Williams and Michael Beasley.
   5686. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5681198)
Adjustments to the 3 point ball seems like an overreaction to 2 terrible shooting nights by exciting teams who were missing their playmaking PGs

I wouldn't want anything massive. But I think it's something they need to think about, and I think people were at least discussing this as needing review before the playoffs. The rate at which the 3 point shot has been taken the last few years is growing at a rate I don't love. I like the shot making aspect of the league but also like the athletic aspects and don't want that to be marginalized.

stiggles point about the G league is a good one, because moving it back or eliminating the short corner could pretty drastically change the way floor spacing and offenses run. I also think NJ makes a good point that in the short term, this probably makes Golden State better as they have more guys with extreme range and rely more on elite efficiency on mid-range jumpers than most of their competitors.
   5687. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5681207)
Ryan Anderson played 8 minutes and was -12.


Anyone have any idea why Mbah a Mboute didn't play at all last night? As a Warriors fan, I was very happy to see Anderson in there in the 3rd, and Curry ate him alive a couple of times - that shot of Chris Paul pounding the chair next to him after one particularly egregious Anderson attempt to stop Curry said a lot. I know Mbah a Mboute is hurt and can't really shoot, but he still would have been a much better defender at a time when the Rockets needed some stops.

I feel for Paul, but if Iggy had been healthy it's highly unlikely the Warriors lose game 4 and the series is probably over in 6 regardless of CP3's health.
   5688. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:13 AM (#5681212)
Top 25 by 2017-18 Win Shares, by age:

25 & under: 11 (Youngest: Simmons, 21) (Best: Davis, 24, Giannis, 23)
26-29: 10 (includes Durant and 3 of his current or past teammates to reach NBA finals)
30+: 4 (Oldest: Lebron, 33)

Best players older than Lebron: Dirk (39), Pau (37) - both are still effective but no longer top tier NBA players.
   5689. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5681214)
The guys between 26 and 28.


The 29 year old group is excellent though - Durant/Westbrook/Curry
   5690. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5681219)
I don't like the idea of doing anything to the 3 point line because I think it will sort itself out- most teams are honestly just making bad decisions, and surely that can't carry on forever. The simplistic explanation is that everyone is trying to mimic the Warriors without the pesky detail of having any of Curry, Thompson, or Durant on their team. Golden State was only (tied for) 16th in 3PA this year, despite leading the league in 3P% (by a lot- Boston was 2nd, closer to 12th than to 1st). There are a lot of mediocre and even bad shooters out there taking a lot of bad shots- Cousins at 6+ per game, Hardaway Jr over 7, truthfully even Harden and Gordon are less than elite, and combined for 18.8 attempts per game!
   5691. tshipman Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5681221)
The 29 year old group is excellent though - Durant/Westbrook/Curry


Perhaps somewhat tendentiously, I was thinking of these players as being 30 since they all turn 30 this year, rather than as 29, which is their basketball age.

There is a weird gap between stars who are now 30 and stars who should be in their prime. Harden is really the only traditional prime age (28) guy who is dominating in the league this year.

25 & under: 11 (Youngest: Simmons, 21) (Best: Davis, 24, Giannis, 23)
26-29: 10 (includes Durant and 3 of his current or past teammates to reach NBA finals)
30+: 4 (Oldest: Lebron, 33)


Right, and this is weird--there should be more guys in the 26-29 group than the others.
   5692. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5681225)
Anyone have any idea why Mbah a Mboute didn't play at all last night? As a Warriors fan, I was very happy to see Anderson in there in the 3rd, and Curry ate him alive a couple of times - that shot of Chris Paul pounding the chair next to him after one particularly egregious Anderson attempt to stop Curry said a lot. I know Mbah a Mboute is hurt and can't really shoot, but he still would have been a much better defender at a time when the Rockets needed some stops.

I feel for Paul, but if Iggy had been healthy it's highly unlikely the Warriors lose game 4 and the series is probably over in 6 regardless of CP3's health.


If we're playing the injury game I think LRMAM being (effectively) gone for the entire series equals Iggy's absence and then the CP3 injury tips things in HOU's "favor."
   5693. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5681226)
Do we want to do our thread Mock Draft this year? This feels like a good time to start getting ready with the limited schedule of games this week.


Here is the draft order. Pelicans, Pistons, Rockets and Thunder have no first-round pick.

FIRST ROUND

1. Suns
2. Kings
3. Hawks
4. Grizzlies
5. Mavericks
6. Magic
7. Bulls
8. Cavs
9. Knicks
10. 76ers
11. Hornets
12. Clippers
13. Clippers
14. Nuggets
15. Wizards
16. Suns
17. Bucks
18. Spurs
19. Hawks
20. Timberwolves
21. Jazz
22. Bulls
23. Pacers
24. Trailblazers
25. Lakers
26. 76ers
27. Celtics
28. Warriors
29. Nets
30. Hawks

SECOND ROUND

31. Suns
32. Grizzlies
33. Mavericks
34. Hawks
35. Magic
36. Knicks
37. Kings
38. 76ers
39. 76ers
40. Nets
41. Magic
42. Pistons
43. Nuggets
44. Wizards
45. Nets
46. Rockets
47. Lakers
48. Timberwolves
49. Spurs
50. Pacers
51. Pelicans
52. Jazz
53. Thunder
54. Mavericks
55. Hornets
56. 76ers
57. Thunder
58. Nuggets
59. Suns
60. 76ers
   5694. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5681244)
Anyone remember when it was we did the Top 50? Also, any interest in re-doing that this summer?

EDIT: I'm also down for starting with the draft stuff and would love to co-head the Knicks with someone.
   5695. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5681254)
Anyone remember when it was we did the Top 50? Also, any interest in re-doing that this summer?

I have a spreadsheet saved from early August of last year, so it must have been in that late July/early August stretch.
   5696. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5681281)
I'd be happy to be the Scott Layden to your R C Buford, NJ.
   5697. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5681332)
I have a spreadsheet saved from early August of last year, so it must have been in that late July/early August stretch.


I believe that was the current top 50. I think we did the all-time top 50 was done in 2015. I'd probably be up to re-rank. It should be a little easier since those of us who did it last time only have to make adjustments based on the last three years.
   5698. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5681334)
Does anyone here care about the Hornets? If not, I will take them for the draft.
   5699. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5681343)
Does anybody in Charlotte care about the Hornets?
   5700. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5681346)
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