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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   5701. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5681348)
I skipped last year's draft, but I'll jump back in for the Bulls.

I also skipped the top 50, but I could be up for that during the offseason.

I can start a new thread when people want. Should we wait until after the Finals?
   5702. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5681350)
Does anybody in Charlotte care about the Hornets?


The way I see it, they're set up front with Mourning and LJ. Bogues is undersized as a modern PG, but I don't think they need to reach to replace him. Curry and Hawkins are solid on the wings, but they need more depth and neither one is getting any younger, so that's probably where I'll look to supplement the roster. If it's someone who can come in and help Zo defensively, even better.
   5703. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5681353)
I'll take the Magic.
   5704. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5681356)
I can start a new thread when people want. Should we wait until after the Finals?

Finals/mock draft/offseason might be good to be all in one new thread? Just my thought.
   5705. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5681363)
After watching 82 of their games this season, I'll grab the Nets unless we have someone who regularly does them and wants them again.
   5706. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5681369)
After watching 82 of their games this season, I'll grab the Nets unless we have someone who regularly does them and wants them again.

There's an actual Nets fan that doesn't post in this thread a ton- I am Frank, maybe? I drafted for them last year but have no attachment.
   5707. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5681370)
After watching 82 of their games this season


I am so sorry.
   5708. zenbitz Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5681372)
Basketball has a fundamental tension such that both the penalty for fouling is too weak (euro foul), and drawing a foul with contact is too easy (Harden).

If it was just one or the other, it would be relatively straight forward to fix. But since they are opposed... I dunno.



   5709. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5681381)
Basketball is fine. 3-pointers are great. Fouls are in a pretty good balance right now. To the extent that things don't feel great right now it's probably because of the superteam trend; no rule changes are going to fundamentally change that dynamic, but this brand of actual on-court basketball is pretty fantastic. Remember how fun the 7SOL Suns were? As has been quoted to death, that team would be a below average pace team today.

If you want to fix the superteam thing, here are some options:

1) Increase the number of years of team control (extend restricted free agency?)
2) Eliminate max contracts
3) Ramp up the tax even more
4) Harden the cap

I don't necessarily hate the superteam thing, to be clear.
   5710. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5681383)
The emphasis should always be on "basketball plays." We've discussed this before. The "euro foul" is not a basketball play. The rip-through is not. Attempts to deceive the refs are not (the "soccerization" of the sport). All these, and others, should be penalized differently. There are some fouls that should be easy. I'm tired of the moving screens, the ass-extensions, the face-guarding/hugging/holding on rebounds. These things slow down the game and make it uglier. The NBA should experiment to reduce them, with the goal of purifying the sport of non-basketball plays. I even think post facto fines and suspensions are appropriate (for divers, actors, guys whose fouls may hurt other players, etc).
   5711. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5681385)
I'll take the pistons in the draft.
   5712. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5681392)
Micah Adams @MicahAdams13 4h4 hours ago

James Harden took 38 shots in the WCF that came after at least 15 dribbles according to @SecondSpectrum.

The entire Warriors team took 18.
   5713. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5681404)
I am kinda dreading these Finals as a LeBron fan. Cavs are gonna get slaughtered.
   5714. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5681411)
3) Ramp up the tax even more
I think this is backwards. Having a high-penalty tax makes ownership more of a separating factor so that you also have to have owners willing to pay crazy-high tax bills to keep super-teams together. If the tax were less punitive, then more teams would be willing to pay the tax. For example, though they aren't on the same level, the Thunder are almost going to have to let Jerami Grant go if they bring back PG because otherwise their tax bill will be insane this year.
   5715. zenbitz Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5681416)
I have never really watched basketball before the last couple seasons.... as good as the Warriors are now, when I was growing up in SF in the 80s they were the worst, most hard-luck franchise in all sports. Also, I was terrible at basketball and never played it ( although I am a "long" 6'1" so I can play d pretty well now). My son likes it and GSWs are insane, so I pay a little attention now (strangly, I think when my son and I watch regular season basketball the warriors are like .500. That can't be right).

But the ends of games are SOOOOO hot and cold. A 1-2 possession game is unlike almost anything in sport - amazing tension and tactics. A 3-4? possession game is the worst thing ever. Foul, foul, timeout, stall, stall foul, timeout. Ugh. (Blowouts are blowouts in all sports).

Maybe too much contact is allowed away from the ball? I never really noticed how much they wrestle before. I don't know how to fix the ability to draw a defensive foul (rip throughs, draymond kick shots, harden jumping into you, etc.) It's really quite horrible.
   5716. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5681421)
Here's my Bulls big board:

1) Ayton
2) Doncic
3) JJJ
4) Bagley
5) Bamba
6) MPJ
7) Young
8) Carter

----

Big drop off after that. Luckily one of those guys is guaranteed to be on the board. Obviously I'm hoping it's MPJ at #7. FWIW Porter is a) only sharing his medical records with teams he wants to go to and b) he was seen at a popular Chicago beach this weekend. If he's trying to steer himself towards Chicago maybe it will work. That said, I don't think it's much of an angle. Just interesting tidbits from the Bulls' Realgm draft thread.

----

As for the playoffs, some hot takes:

--moving and grabbing while "screening" needs to stopped. call the damn moving screen again.
--there's entirely too much contact allowed in general
--the NBA should experiment in SL with a widened court. Maybe 1' and extend the three point line out in the corner another 8" or so, however the math works with the smooth arc.
--Eric Gordon has a lot of heart. I thought he was going to blow out an achilles or knee have a dozen times this series and he just kept attacking. A lot of respect out to Gordon.
--Kevin Durant and Steph and Klay and Draymond all had stinker moments in this series and it didn't really matter because collectively they'd pick each other up.
--Does anybody think Draymond is still a top 15 player out of the context of GS? Great player, just incredibly limited offensively and much like Ben Wallace on those Pistons clubs it doesn't really matter as he's surrounded by scorers.
--Kerr and Stevens are head and shoulders above their coaching peers. Kerr, imo, is a motivational mastermind on and off the court. I'm not sure if GS is coached by Ty Lue they win this series. Kerr allows these guys to yell at each other and ride the edge of the wave and they always seem to come together after it. Not sure the bickering with Durant and Green doesn't spiral out of control if Kerr isn't managing all these egos.
--I'm tired of this matchup and although I'm looking forward to watching it -- I'm tired of it. NBA needs some new blood imo. Even though the ratings are solid and the league is in great shape overall some new blood is needed and maybe some rules changes as well. This wasn't great basketball overall. Compelling sure, but not great basketball. The level of physicality allowed and the number of bricked threes made for some hard watching.

Maybe too much contact is allowed away from the ball? I never really noticed how much they wrestle before. I don't know how to fix the ability to draw a defensive foul (rip throughs, draymond kick shots, harden jumping into you, etc.) It's really quite horrible.


The off ball contact is as bad as it's ever been. The on ball hard foul is dead, but the clutching and grabbing and wrestling is alive and as well as ever. Sometimes I feel they called more big on big contact back in the 80s and 90s and early aughts.
   5717. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5681432)
I'll take whoever in the draft, but I won't participate much here until then ... the finals are just too depressing (on multiple levels).
   5718. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5681433)
I've taken the complete opposite point from this postseason- he would be crazy to leave the East.


No idea what is his head, obviously, but James' personal ties to Wade, Anthony, and Paul seem to be real. I think joining forces with his "brother" (as he has referred to Paul in public many times) to take out the mighty Warriors would appeal strongly to him. Also, James knows he needs another star with him, and a three-man core. It worked OK with Irving and Love, but it has imploded with Thomas and Love. Finally, guys tend to want to play with other guys their age. One reason I have always doubted the James/76ers narrative is that Simmons and Embiid are so young.
   5719. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5681434)
--Does anybody think Draymond is still a top 15 player out of the context of GS? Great player, just incredibly limited offensively and much like Ben Wallace on those Pistons clubs it doesn't really matter as he's surrounded by scorers.

I still think he's the most valuable defensive player in the league and would make any good team even better.
   5720. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5681439)
Also, James knows he needs another star with him, and a three-man core. It worked OK with Irving and Love, but it has imploded with Thomas and Love. Finally, guys tend to want to play with other guys their age. One reason I have always doubted the James/76ers narrative is that Simmons and Embiid are so young.

I don't think the Sixers idea makes any sense, either, for this reason plus just basic fit.

I'm starting to lean towards Cleveland, and am also wondering if Miami would be a possibility again. I guess I don't see any other East option as being likely. Then I suppose Houston/Lakers, in something like that order?
   5721. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 29, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5681440)
I kinda disagree. I think both end up coming off pretty good here


I think in our crowd, the Lowe/Pelton crowd, the backpicks.com crowd, sure. But I think in the casual crowd, no. I think in those conversations, it will be: There is always something going wrong for Paul in postseason, and in the biggest game in 7SOL/MDA history, his team missed 27 3s in a row--at home.
   5722. smileyy Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5681449)
I'm willing to take the Kings again because...well, why not?
   5723. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5681452)
I feel for Paul, but if Iggy had been healthy it's highly unlikely the Warriors lose game 4 and the series is probably over in 6 regardless of CP3's health.


Like the Leonard injury last year, the Paul injury, for me, does not the GS narrative much. Lowe's pre-G7 column was very concise: GS has the best talent core in the game, and they should win 1 or 2 more, maybe 3, as long as it is intact. By "should" I mean that anything less than the title, this year and next, would not be a good year for a team that added Kevin Durant to a team that won 140 games in two years before he got there.

That said, while Iguodala is a key piece for GS, comparing GS losing him to Houston losing Paul--not even close. Paul being out was more or less like GS playing G6 and G7 without Curry.
   5724. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5681455)
I still think he's the most valuable defensive player in the league and would make any good team even better.


I agree but the caveat is "good team" -- which in this era is one that plays four out efficiently. If you put him on say Detroit and he had to play next to Drummond that would be a stagnant offense at times. Most, if not all of the other top 15 players (in any order) would fit on any team, but Draymond wouldn't.

Great player, just a unique skill set, much like Ben Wallace or prime Joakim Noah, that wouldn't work well on offensively challenged clubs.
   5725. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5681465)
I agree but the caveat is "good team" -- which in this era is one that plays four out efficiently. If you put him on say Detroit and he had to play next to Drummond that would be a stagnant offense at times. Most, if not all of the other top 15 players (in any order) would fit on any team, but Draymond wouldn't.

Well I'll take the caveat away, because I honestly think he would make any team better, I think he's that good defensively. In your example I think the problem would be with Drummond, not Draymond.

And I also think he is a significant reason why Golden State's offense is so good- you can't play the death lineup with just anyone. Having a guy who can play center on defense, switch 1-5 credibly, bring the ball up on the break, and even make an occasional three is a significant reason they can play all those guys at the same time.
   5726. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5681467)
I'm starting to lean towards Cleveland, and am also wondering if Miami would be a possibility again. I guess I don't see any other East option as being likely. Then I suppose Houston/Lakers, in something like that order?


If Miami could get George there with him, yeah, I could see that. James/George/Whiteside, and Wade as a bench guy. Riley would need to move Dragic and other guys, though, presumably.

Lakers...my IRL buddies are talking about it, ofc, but I don't see it. It would be adding James and George to Randle/Ball/Ingram, stretching Deng, and/or letting Randle walk, and adding a vet. And even then they are still dealing with GS, HOU, et al.

Not seeing Cleveland unless they can get a star to come there to play with him, or he just wants to stay there for emotional reasons. I think after the 2016 title and dragging this group to the Finals, he is OK optically if he bails this time--Northern Ohio will always be home, will keep my foundation and charities going, etc.
   5727. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5681471)
I am so sorry.
Brooklyn at least has a really good announcing team.
   5728. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5681473)
"Best" is hard to define, but if we were doing an NBA draft for a single season next year, and I knew I was going to get not-coasting on defense Draymond all season, I'd take him in the top 15. He can't score but he can dribble, spaces the floor ok, and passes well. His defense is really good. And there are tons of shooters and scorers.

Finding a guy that can protect the rim and rebound at an acceptable center rate while also not killing your spacing or ball movement is really hard.

I just feel like Donovan Mitchell types which can get you most of the way there for an offensive creator are way easier to find than Draymond. Really, the only other guy like Draymond out there I can think of is PJ Tucker. I do wonder if more of these bully-ball SF/PF types in college/G League/NBA shouldn't be trying to make the conversion to center. You gotta be strong and nasty to not get killed on the glass and in the post, but I do think that's the next market inefficiency - finding guys that can be Draymond/Tucker. I think they're out there.
   5729. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5681480)
I was pretty shocked when LeBron came back to Cleveland. And when he went to Miami on a TV special (something I think he's too smart to do now). I think it's all pretty open.
   5730. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5681482)
Could this trade have any chance of working, and would it keep Lebron in Cleveland?

Love + Nets pick to SAS for Kawhi
   5731. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5681485)
Really, the only other guy like Draymond out there I can think of is PJ Tucker.

Perma-caveat that I'm a Celtics fan, but I think Horford is maybe the guy. We'd talk about him more like this if he weren't actually center-sized, but he does all of the small ball center things now- bring the ball up occasionally, push it after a defensive rebound, initiate the offense, shoot the open 3, be really switchy on the perimeter (obviously not as well as Draymond on that latter one, but still).
   5732. SteveF Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5681496)
"Best" is hard to define, but if we were doing an NBA draft for a single season next year, and I knew I was going to get not-coasting on defense Draymond all season, I'd take him in the top 15. He can't score but he can dribble, spaces the floor ok, and passes well. His defense is really good. And there are tons of shooters and scorers.

So with 30 teams drafting, knowing you won't pick again until #45, you would take Draymond Green with the #15 pick overall?
   5733. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 29, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5681525)
So with 30 teams drafting, knowing you won't pick again until #45, you would take Draymond Green with the #15 pick overall?


We'll assume it's a one year draft, for 2018 and everybody is in perfect health and we have this year's data on everybody. So at #15 you'd have who available?

These guys will be off the board:

Lebron
Durant
AD
Curry
Giannis
Harden
Westbrook
Kahwi
Paul
Butler
Towns
Irving
Embiid

These guys will probably be on the board:

Draymond
Lilliard
Hayward
Gobert
Boogie
Drummond
Jokic
Thompson
Aldridge
Simmons
Wall

and so on.

I dunno it's tough. Almost talked myself into him as a top 15 guy making this list.

   5734. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5681541)
If Miami could get George there with him, yeah, I could see that. James/George/Whiteside, and Wade as a bench guy. Riley would need to move Dragic and other guys, though, presumably.


They have a lot more mid-tier contracts than max contracts, and those are usually easier to move, but I'm with you; I just don't see enough of a supporting cast to make it look worthwhile. He'd be making an upgrade from Love to George as a wingman but otherwise ends up in a similar spot.

Lakers...my IRL buddies are talking about it, ofc, but I don't see it. It would be adding James and George to Randle/Ball/Ingram, stretching Deng, and/or letting Randle walk, and adding a vet. And even then they are still dealing with GS, HOU, et al.


I think the more likely path for him to LA is to clear the decks and trade young guys like Ball and Ingram for present assets for the age-related reasons you mentioned earlier. I haven't looked in depth, but I bet they could get a third guy on an AS level if they were willing to give up Ingram. Someone like Conley, Kemba, Lowry? They'd still have to fill out the roster with cheap vets/ring chasers, but Conley would be a better third wheel than whatever he could get in Miami or Cleveland.

Love + Nets pick to SAS for Kawhi


I've had that in mind, too, but I think it puts SA between two positions. Love is a win-now player who would actually fit decently in a frontcourt rotation with Aldridge and Gasol. The pick is a future move and someone like Sexton or Bridges would be an awkward fit with an otherwise old team.

If you want to fix the superteam thing, here are some options:

1) Increase the number of years of team control (extend restricted free agency?)
2) Eliminate max contracts
3) Ramp up the tax even more
4) Harden the cap


I think those things might be overkill. The only reason these teams get put together is that certain players take less than their market value and all of the rules assume rational action by the players. It's hard to build a system that contemplates Durant taking a discount, Green continuing to take less than the max, or David West walking away from 8 figures. I don't know how you get around that.
   5735. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5681561)
While there's a lot of what you say that's true, there's still a big difference between Durant taking a pay cut from 30M to 25M and 60M to 25M.

I tend to believe that getting players like David West for free doesn't really affect the championship race that much. He's good, but he's not really moving the needle from team to superteam.
   5736. Joe OBrien Posted: May 29, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5681562)
I've also been making the Horford/Draymond comparison as well. Both are sneakily great. Versatile, great at a couple things, competent at everything. Horford's a better shooter, Green a better passer/creator. Not a perfect comp but as close a match as either has.
   5737. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5681601)
I tend to believe that getting players like David West for free doesn't really affect the championship race that much. He's good, but he's not really moving the needle from team to superteam.


At this point he barely shows up on the court - 27 minutes and 8 points in 7 games against Houston. I'm sure he left some money on the table to chase a ring with the Spurs 3 years ago. Right now he's past the point where he gets more than a veteran minimum from anybody.
   5738. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5681615)
Green continuing to take less than the max


How much of a discount did Green give the team? He signed his current 5 year, 82 million dollar contract after his 3rd season in the league, summer of 2015. Looks like they lucked out on signing him to that deal before the cap went way up.
   5739. Mike A Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5681617)
The rate at which the 3 point shot has been taken the last few years is growing at a rate I don't love. I like the shot making aspect of the league but also like the athletic aspects and don't want that to be marginalized.

Yeah, it's getting a bit much for me as well. Maybe it's because I grew up with 80s NBA, but I miss shots like Jordan's floater, Dominique's bank, Olajuwon's fade, Kareem's skyhook - the mid-range shot has been minimized because of the greater efficiency of dunks/3-pointers. Houston only took four shots from 10-23 feet yesterday. Four! Roughly half of the game 7 shots were 3-pointers, which just seems like too many to me.

And when teams are off...Game 7 Boston/Houston went 14 for 83 from the three-point line. Michigan went 3 for 23 in the National Championship game. Painful.
   5740. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5681629)
How much of a discount did Green give the team?


At the time of the deal, cap was 70 million and Green, having less than 6 years in the league, could have made up to 25% of that. So 17.5 million. The contract he signed averaged 16.4. I assume there is an escalation percentage, so maybe Green could have had 17.5 in year one but more in 2-4. Doesn't look like he left more than a few million per year on the table though.

I could be wrong, I am no capologist. Just what I see from a quick search of Wikipedia.
   5741. Rally Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5681644)
Yeah, it's getting a bit much for me as well. Maybe it's because I grew up with 80s NBA, but I miss shots like Jordan's floater, Dominique's bank, Olajuwon's fade, Kareem's skyhook - the mid-range shot has been minimized because of the greater efficiency of dunks/3-pointers.


Me too. Maybe it's just 80s nostalgia for me. The 3 point game just seems artificial. You give an extra point because the shot came from 24 feet out instead of 22. I understand that's the rule, everyone knows it, and everyone adjusts their game plan to account for it.

It seems to me like adjusting the baseball standings to give every team 1 for a win, but an extra 0.5 every time the finishing pitcher is credited with a save. So teams will do silly things to play to the rule like designate a guy to pitch a 9th inning 3 run lead. Or even worse, if leading by 4 with 2 outs and bases empty in the 9th, put 2 runners on so you can bring in a new pitcher for the save situation.

Some people I'm sure will hate that analogy, but I think it has some validity to a situation where a wide open shooter 22 feet from the basket will step back 2 feet before letting the shot fly - you don't do it because it's a better shot. You only do it because the rules reward you for doing so.
   5742. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5681652)
It seems to me like adjusting the baseball standings to give every team 1 for a win, but an extra 0.5 every time the finishing pitcher is credited with a save. So teams will do silly things to play to the rule like designate a guy to pitch a 9th inning 3 run lead. Or even worse, if leading by 4 with 2 outs and bases empty in the 9th, put 2 runners on so you can bring in a new pitcher for the save situation.


To me it's more analogous to a team getting a first down if they gain 10 yards but almost nothing if they gain 9 yards (relative to 0 yards). So yes, nobody throws the ball 9 yards on 3rd and 10, and a quarterback / receiver will pass up a 9 yard pass opportunity to take a lower-percentage 10 yard pass, but that doesn't seem like a bug to me and it feels structurally similar. And defenses in that position will concede the 9 yard pass when they wouldn't the 10 yard pass, just like they will concede the open midranger when they wouldn't concede the open 3-pointer.

I also don't see anything more aesthetically pleasing about a 20 foot jumper compared to a 24 foot one.
   5743. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5681656)
I don't see either super teams or tanking ones as a problem that necessitates a structural solution.
   5744. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5681662)
I don't see either super teams or tanking ones as a problem that necessitates a structural solution.


Didn't the league introduce the so called "super max" as a way to keep more home town superstars? Also the league changed the lotto odds, which will make "pulling a Hinkie" a lot harder and make any given tank season potentially a lot less productive.
   5745. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5681664)
Didn't the league introduce the so called "super max" as a way to keep more home town superstars? Also the league changed the lotto odds, which will make "pulling a Hinkie" a lot harder and make any given tank season potentially a lot less productive.

Sure. And we'll see how it works. But honestly, neither approach was necessary and neither will have huge downstream effect. I would prefer more fiddling around the margins to large scale changes to the game, particularly when the problems being attacked are largely temporary and a function of very particular circumstances. In general, there is somewhat more of a bias towards action in sports than is truly warranted.
   5746. jmurph Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5681665)
Didn't the league introduce the so called "super max" as a way to keep more home town superstars?

With Wall and Westbrook, it's looking more like a tax on those teams keeping hometown stars.
   5747. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 29, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5681668)
[5741] It seems more analogous to rewarding a hitter’s team with 1-4 runs if they’re able to hit the ball 400+ feet and possibly nothing if they can’t.
   5748. Joe S. Posted: May 29, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5681707)
I saw an idea somewhere (might have been Twitter) about changing the free throw rules that sounded interesting. Instead of shooting two or three throws, the fouled player would have one shot that is worth either the two or three points. Now there's probably an obvious downside that I'm missing but it seems that this would speed up the game and potentially reduce the prevalence of Hack-a-Shaq strategies. What do you guys think?
   5749. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5681711)
Didn't the league introduce the so called "super max" as a way to keep more home town superstars? Also the league changed the lotto odds, which will make "pulling a Hinkie" a lot harder and make any given tank season potentially a lot less productive.
interestingly, the supermax extension is one of the main reasons why so many stars have changed teams over the last few years. SAC didn't want to pay cousins 200MM; IND didn't want to pay george; UTA couldn't pay hayhurst; LAC immediately regretted paying griffin; SAS's hesitance to pay kawhi is cited as a reason why he sat out most of the season; john wall's extension is a disaster, and it's not even kicking in until after next year.
guys tend to want to play with other guys their age. One reason I have always doubted the James/76ers narrative is that Simmons and Embiid are so young.

simmons will be 22. embiid and saric will be 24. they're not that young.

i think CHA should get more attention as a potential dark horse for lebron. he'd stay in the east, play for the previous GOAT (who happens to be the only african american owner in NBA/MLB/NHL/NFL) and the roster could be a blank slate. they have a new coach, a new GM, and an interesting, if fungible, supporting cast.
   5750. Howie Menckel Posted: May 29, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5681718)
So yes, nobody throws the ball 9 yards on 3rd and 10

this happened often enough even in the 1980s that it became announcer John Madden's bugbear
   5751. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5681733)
[5741] It seems more analogous to rewarding a hitter’s team with 1-4 runs if they’re able to hit the ball 400+ feet and possibly nothing if they can’t.


Ha, that was my exact reaction to reading the initial comment. If you hit it over this arbitrarily placed (and inconsistent from stadium to stadium), you don't even have to worry about the defense! But two feet shorter, and you better get going. [shakes fist at sky]
   5752. aberg Posted: May 29, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5681738)
The google says that Draymond left about 8m on the table, which in turn saves a full-tax paying owner $16m extra over the course of the contract.

There are also rumors that Klay might sign an extension this summer that would be $50m under his max.

I raised West as an example for his SA contract. That was the egregious one.
   5753. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 29, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5681739)
this happened often enough even in the 1980s that it became announcer John Madden's bugbear


little known fact: it was Joey Harrington that killed John Madden's will to live. It was all over from that point.
   5754. . . . . . . Posted: May 29, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5681763)
I've often thought about how the NBA would look if the 3 point line was a bit like hole placement in golf. I.e., quasi random each night ranging from, say, the 22-foot line from the mid-90s to, say, 26 feet at the top of the key (and thus eliminating the corner 3 altogether).

B/c the line would move around every night, great shooting a-la a Curry or other pull-up shooters would still be hugely valuable, but it would make it harder to 'game' the three point line with a set offense.
   5755. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5681803)
I'll draft for the Bucks.
   5756. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5681804)
The traditionalist in me thinks each basket should be worth two. Accepting the arbitrariness of sports, I get having an extra point for excitement's sake, but it strikes me as reasonable, if not more so, to give 3 points for a dunk or layup (you made it through the defense, got to the basket, get rewarded!) than to give three for hoisting the ball from distance. The thing about athletes is, almost no matter how far out you move it, they'll get better at it. I like the idea of getting rid of the corner three. I think some experimentation is in order. I'm just not a fan of Al Horford, this season aside, jacking up threes. It's ugly. Really, really ugly.
   5757. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5681823)
The Curious Case of Bryan Colangelo and the Secret Twitter Account

Hilarious. I guess we can be pretty sure STIGGLES isn't Colangelo.
   5758. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5681839)
ESPN is airing a live mock draft featuring nate silver, ariel helwani and uncle fester.

for some reason, michael porter slipped to #10, and for some even more inexplicable reason, the sixers picked lonnie walker instead of him.


if that happens on draft night, things will get broken.
   5759. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5681851)
[5754] Someone in another iteration of this argument suggested the possibility that each home team could structure the 3 pt arc however they wanted (similar to baseball), which I think would be fun, but likely just result in a lot more home court advantage and a worse overall product.
   5760. PJ Martinez Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5681853)
5757: Whoa. The anti-Embiid stuff is particularly striking:

In recent months—particularly since Simmons’s emergence as a formidable talent—the accounts became increasingly hostile toward Embiid. Earlier this season, HonestAbe compared him unfavorably to the Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis. “I am a Philly fan but out trade The process for The Unicorn in a heart bit,” the account wrote. “Such a smarter player.” And, in response to a Sixers Nation post about Embiid committing a foul, Enoughunkownsources replied: “I am sure it is hard for him ‘to process’ the fact, that this is now Ben’s team. So he is acting up. This ego foul is costing us big!”

Plus the apparent attempted disclosure of medical information that the team seems to have agreed to keep private.
   5761. Internet Commenter Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5681858)
I'd like to see the NBA experiment with more point gradations in the G League. You can't get too granular as a practical matter, but I'd take that Second Spectrum data and start with 1-2-3-4 point zones based on the difficulty of shots. Right now, the league puts a skill cap on Curry in order to reward the P.J. Tuckers of the world, which is absolutely backwards. The more the NBA emphasizes skill over brute force, the better it becomes.
   5762. JJ1986 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5681860)
The Curious Case of Bryan Colangelo and the Secret Twitter Account
I'm mostly disappointed that a 52-year old NBA executive has such terrible sentence construction and grammar. "He will not say not to lose other chance"?
   5763. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5681873)
Some of the ways Colangelo criticized black players and his anger over Wade and Union talking about not visiting the WH also leads me to believe Colangelo, in addition to being insecure and petty, isn't the most enlightened person. And I would not be shocked to someday see an AP headline about him making "racially charged" comments.

But the best part is definitely him defending his collar size.
   5764. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5681876)
I'll take the Warriors for the draft again. Hold all the changes to the three point line. I grew up with it, watching Reggie Miller bomb threes, so I'm a future/budding get off my lawn type with that.

Feels weird to not have a game tonight.

I'd be down to do another current BTF Rank. I don't have a ton to add an All Time one, but I'd certainly follow along and read the posts.

And I actually kind of like the comp of Al Horford to Draymond Green. I'm not sure I would rather have Green over Horford. Obviously a bit of an offense vs. defense trade off, but can you imagine trying to guard a Horford-KD-Iguodala-Klay-Curry lineup? And it'd still be pretty good to great defensively.

FWIW, Draymond finished 9th in the preseason BTF rank, and Al Horford 33rd. Horford is getting a bit up there in age but I have to imagine he'd finish higher this offseason.
   5765. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5681879)
Is Colangelo going to get fired or punished over this, or is this a nothing story going nowhere?
   5766. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5681885)
If it's provably true, they have to fire Colangelo. Or he probably steps down I guess. Based on the article's evidence I would be shocked if it wasn't him.
   5767. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5681894)
I agree it has to be him, but I think the provably part of your comment is what it'll hinge on. If he stonewalls about the four accounts he's not immediately willing to cop to, will it disappear? What a weird, dumb thing for him to have done.
   5768. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5681895)
Also, yeah that Colangelo story is nuts. I could see him surviving if he stonewalls, but I believe it's him beyond a reasonable doubt. Would a jury convict? What would the reasonable doubt be?

I think there are enough questionable activities there where if it's established that it's him conclusively he's not going to keep his job.
   5769. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:38 PM (#5681903)
When user @Philly_####### commented on the executive’s well-documented sartorial preference, “This dude just love collars,” Enoughunkownsources responded, “That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.
WTF?
Some of those shared attributes were odd, such as a distaste for beards and “unknown sources.”
WTF??????
While researching this story, I realized that I had muted the Still Balling account in the past.
i'm gonna get to what's interesting about this a little later.
Hinkie, who penned a 13-page resignation letter about team-building theory that included analogies about flightless birds from New Zealand, is a frequent target of vitriol from the accounts.
oh god, that letter.
“BC has done nothing but clean up hinkie’s mess,”
i'll get back to this one, too.
He chafed at the lucrative long-term extension Ujiri signed in the fall of 2016. “You were resigned for 30+ millions this Summer, so yes! please Masai do something!”
and this.
“I sat NEXT to you and [Dwyane Wade] at Beijing Olympics and saw you both being rude nasty to little kid fan,” the account said. “Had to eat yr pizza. … You showed no respect to this little kid, who are you to stand on high grounds?
and this.
someone jokingly replied to one of the accounts with, “This you, Bryan?,” Enoughunkownsources claimed to know Colangelo. “No - but thanks for the compliment!” they answered. “He is too classy to even engage. Worked with him: he is a class act.”

and this.
The accounts routinely challenge journalists to report these negative claims and, in some cases, have pushed writers to ask players specific questions or to contact the organization to set up interviews. In every example, the accounts have pursued an agenda of absolving Colangelo of blame while vilifying Sixers players.
they described Noel as a “selfish punk” who was “behaving like a vulture.”

Other times, Embiid was described as “a bit lazy,” “selfish,” and “acting like a tool,”
Joel is a big selfish baby, not my leader anymore.”



okay, here's what i want to say:
Colangelo preferred the Nets job and wanted no part of the Sixers’ opening because his father, Jerry Colangelo, was the chairman of basketball operations for the Sixers and he wanted to avoid the inevitable charges of nepotism.

this was in an article from around the time colangelo was hired to be hinkie's boss, and i think it's instructive of the kind of person that bryan colangelo is. he knew that getting a no-bid contract from his father was wrong, but he jumped right into it when his other option evaporated.

he's conscious of what's proper and what's not, but he doesn't care...and he's probably never had to.


oh, and the thing about him getting blocked is interesting because that's what NBA teams would have done to him if his father wasn't around to give him every job he's ever had.
   5770. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5681909)
Also what's up with him leaking Okafor failed a physical, apparently specifically against Okafor's wishes? I assume there are typically agreements in place so that teams can get and talk about players' medicals without violating HIPPA, but what happens when a player doesn't grant this permission?
   5771. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5681910)
   5772. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5681912)
I don't tweet; is that Embiid mocking this story or BC? If the latter, BC is done, right?
   5773. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5681918)
Mocking BC. I don't see how Embiid, Fultz, or Brown wouldn't be asking for Colangelo to get canned.


Also:
@minakimes
Following Following @minakimes
More Mina Kimes Retweeted Joel Embiid
I *just* noticed Joel is wearing a collared shirt in this pic. He really is playing 4D chess on this site while the rest of us are playing checkers


Embiid is so good at trolling that this wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional.

OMG:
@JoelEmbiid
Follow Follow @JoelEmbiid
More
Joel told me that @samhinkie IS BETTER AND SMARTER THAN YOU @AlVic40117560 #BurnerAccount


Embiid is the best thing about the NBA right now.
   5774. Tin Angel Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5681926)
This is more entertaining than the finals are going to be.
   5775. tshipman Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5681930)
If Colangelo lost the players, then he gets fired. That said, it's not clear that Embiid stunting on twitter is that.
   5776. Tin Angel Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5681934)
If Colangelo lost the players, then he gets fired.


Is his dad really going to fire him though?
   5777. PJ Martinez Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5681935)
Sixers All-Star center Joel Embiid tells ESPN on Bryan Colangelo: “I talked to him and he said that he didn’t say that. He called me just to deny the story. Gotta believe him until proven otherwise. If true though, that would be really bad.”
   5778. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5681936)
Is Colangelo going to get fired or punished over this, or is this a nothing story going nowhere?

this is going to get bigger before it goes away.

as i've said, all sixers fans are now 57i66135 and i hated this smarmy piece of #### before this story came out. now? there's no way in hell that people like me will let this die down peacefully.


i don't know that colangelo will get scalped over this, but if he doesn't, the sixers will be a tinderbox for the foreseeable future.


assuming both colangelli fall on large adult son's sword, the sixers have some hard ####### work ahead of them. this has the potential to be the biggest offseason since the heatles came together and the sixers will not have a GM at the start of it.

my first three calls would be to:
1: popovich: maybe he's ready to move on from coaching, and the sixers would be one hell of a situation for him to walk into as an executive
2: david griffin: i thought he landed with the knicks already, but apparently not. that gets you closer to lebron, and i think he was pretty well-respected.
3: shane battier: he's sharp, he taps into the dook pipeline and (i think) he's on good terms with lebron.
   5779. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5681939)
Sixers All-Star center Joel Embiid tells ESPN on Bryan Colangelo: “I talked to him and he said that he didn’t say that. He called me just to deny the story. Gotta believe him until proven otherwise. If true though, that would be really bad.”

if this part of the article is accurate, the writer deserves a pulitzer:
I did not disclose our suspicions about the other three accounts, one of which, Still Balling, had been active earlier that day; I did this to see whether the partial disclosure would trigger any changes to the other accounts

...within hours of the call, all three of the accounts I hadn’t discussed with the team switched from public to private


if this is what happened, it's the nail in the coffin. the only plausible reason for why that would happen is that snitchie snitch was running all the accounts.
   5780. Tin Angel Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5681942)
...within hours of the call, all three of the accounts I hadn’t discussed with the team switched from public to private


I'm not the most tech-savvy person, but isn't there a way to check via GPS where the accounts are posting from?
   5781. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:41 PM (#5681944)
I'm not the most tech-savvy person, but isn't there a way to check via GPS where the accounts are posting from?


AFAIK, if the twitter user does not have that option set to reveal publicly, only Twitter employees could check location.
   5782. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:45 PM (#5681945)
Man, not to take this thread political, but there's a chance that the current tech policy environment compels Twitter itself to react as part of their current campaign (both real and PR) against fake accounts, bots, and fake news.
   5783. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:47 PM (#5681946)
Embiid has spoken (in tweet form). Colangelo is done.
   5784. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5681947)
Embiid has spoken (in tweet form). Colangelo is done.
check out his likes
   5785. JC in DC Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5681948)
What the heck? Those Eric Jr. things are (most likely) Colangelo tweets? The poor guy must have some deep issues.
   5786. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 29, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5681949)
@wojespn
Following Following @wojespn
More
Maybe there’s an IT person who can prove it wasn’t Bryan Colangelo, but here’s one of his biggest problems in disputing Ringer story: Those tweets reflected not only private team biz, but launched personal beefs/jealousies/frustrations that he’s shared inside and outside 76ers.
   5787. PJ Martinez Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5681954)
Three of the five twitter accounts referenced in the @ringer report (@s_bonhams, @honesta34197118, @AlVic40117560) have a recovery phone number that ends in 91, suggesting they were run by the same individual.
   5788. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5681955)
another interesting angle on this:
In February, The Ringer received an anonymous tip that Bryan Colangelo, the Philadelphia 76ers’ president of basketball operations, had been secretly operating five Twitter accounts

...On Tuesday, May 22, I emailed the Sixers


bill simmons sat on this story until the sixers/celtics series was over. knowing how the series turned out anyway, my god, i would have loved to see this break before game 3.
   5789. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:28 AM (#5681961)
From a realpolitik point of view, this is a real shame for the Celtics. For however hilarious and embarrassing it is for Bryan Colangelo, whomever the Sixers hire to replace him will almost certainly be better at the job, and the Celtics at least marginally worse off for it.
   5790. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:37 AM (#5681962)
this is a good one:
Weirdest stories of the 2018 NBA season, ranked:

1. Colangelo burner accounts
2. Markelle Fultz loses the ability to play basketball
3. Kawhi injury saga
4. Rockets/Clippers tunnel fight
5. KD burner accounts
...19. An entire season passed with 0 Knicks-related scandals
...25. Earl Watson
...29. KCP briefly has to sit road games bc he can't leave Cali
...40. Lakers get fined for tampering—twice!
   5791. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:55 AM (#5681965)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
If the Sixers' strategy was trying to leak the Brett Brown contract extension tonight to distract us from the other story in Philly tonight … doesn't appear to be working
????????????????

YA THINK????>?>
   5792. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: May 30, 2018 at 01:00 AM (#5681967)
It has also been speculated that the anonymous tip came from hinkie
   5793. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 30, 2018 at 01:02 AM (#5681968)
For however hilarious and embarrassing it is for Bryan Colangelo, whomever the Sixers hire to replace him will almost certainly be better at the job,

Colangelo doesn't seem that bad at the job. The team was fairly good this year. What would the theoretical good GM have done better than him? Not trade up for Markelle Fultz I guess. Trade Noel for four second-round picks instead of two second-round picks and Justin Anderson?
   5794. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 30, 2018 at 02:24 AM (#5681974)
@DwyaneWade
I guess all black people do look alike because @itsgabrielleu wasn’t at the Olympic in 08. Clearly Eric Jr lied

mood right now.
   5795. spivey Posted: May 30, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5682009)
Sounds like Colangelo called Embiid last night and Embiid said both last night bu again today he doesn’t believe it’s BC. We will see where this goes. Should be fun.
   5796. JC in DC Posted: May 30, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5682012)
It's way too early to bury Colangelo. Even if it does turn out to be him, there could be reasons for it and other factors that preserve him in the job.
   5797. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 30, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5682048)
Completely disagree, JC. This is career ending stuff.
   5798. spivey Posted: May 30, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5682059)
I agree this will end his career *if* it sticks. I think it should, and I think there's a good chance he's lost the locker room + has compromised himself and the team for any FA negotiations. Embiid is smart and may well be saying the right, supportive things publicly, especially since it's so early. But he also kind of left the door open on "But if it's true, this guy needs to be buried."

Similar to 5787, I saw this tweet today which covers similar ground, but also seems to suggest the email cropped out would have been easily identifiable as BC's.

@SixersAdam

Sorry, Bryan. Got you.

Went to “reset password” and tried three of his burners. Every single one has a phone number ending in 91. This is clearly not a coincidence.

*note*: I cropped out Colangelo’s email addresses from the picture


I was thinking about this this morning and wondering "Could it really be him, whoever is posting is clearly a certifiable idiot, and there's a lot of crazy people, maybe it is just a rando." But the stuff about all of the followers and his kids' team is just really hard to overlook. The circumstantial evidence is massive. I think his only hope to wriggle out is if someone in his family takes the fall. That's the only plausible scenario I could see where it's not him - it's a family member.
   5799. Rally Posted: May 30, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5682097)
Colangelo doesn't seem that bad at the job. The team was fairly good this year. What would the theoretical good GM have done better than him? Not trade up for Markelle Fultz I guess.


That was disastrous. Even if Fultz was able to show anything, giving their rival Tatum AND a future (almost certainly lottery) pick is terrible.

The google says that Draymond left about 8m on the table, which in turn saves a full-tax paying owner $16m extra over the course of the contract.


8m over the course of the deal, not per year, right? That's chump change.

i think CHA should get more attention as a potential dark horse for lebron. he'd stay in the east, play for the previous GOAT (who happens to be the only african american owner in NBA/MLB/NHL/NFL) and the roster could be a blank slate. they have a new coach, a new GM, and an interesting, if fungible, supporting cast.


I would like that, but only if they televise the inevitable star player vs. owner 1-on-1 in practice.
   5800. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 30, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5682099)
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