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Friday, November 01, 2019

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (November 2019)

What’s in a brand?

That’s the central question that all four of the forthcoming streaming services from media titans Apple, Disney, WarnerMedia and Comcast will be asking themselves in the coming months as they prepare to launch platforms that rival established stalwarts like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and even CBS All Access.

For Disney (Disney+), WarnerMedia (HBO Max) and Comcast (Peacock), that means focusing on corporate synergy from across many of their respective linear networks and spending billions to reclaim their biggest hits that helped to feed the big red beast that is Netflix. Meanwhile, Apple (Apple TV+) will build up its own content library after spending billions on star-studded originals as it eschews the library backbone that many other services are turning to in order to have ample content to draw subscribers.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: November 01, 2019 at 08:00 AM | 208 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   101. Greg Pope Posted: November 18, 2019 at 10:21 AM (#5901939)
if you could ban one Christmas song from ever being played again, which would it be?

Similar to BBR in #91, I worked in a toy store as a teenager. The loop was longer, but it contained multiple versions of all of the songs, so I still heard the same songs over and over.

I developed a deep, abiding hatred of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland". I don't hate anything else, and I have no explanation as to why it's that song. But I can't stand it.
   102. Panik on the streets of Flushing! (Trout! Trout!) Posted: November 18, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5901955)
Christmas songs I never want to hear again:

Christmas Shoes by Newsong
Where Are You Christmas by Faith Hill


Christmas songs/albums I enjoy:

Pop/Rock division:

Winter Wonderland by either Annie Lennox or the Eurythmics I don't know which
2000 Miles by The Pretenders
River by Joni Mitchell


Classical/Instrumental division:

Both John Fahey Christmas albums
The Nutcracker ballet




   103. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: November 18, 2019 at 11:14 AM (#5901988)
Since the age of around 8, my folks made it a tradition to put on an album called 'A Very Special Christmas' of then-modern covers of Christmas songs at the gift-unwrapping stage of the day. I assume it was a charity compilation, and the Eurythmics' Winder Wonderland referenced in 102 is on it. Due to the lifetime associations, I now unconditionally love pretty much 80% of its 15 tracks. Given that most of my Christmases have been in the UK, the abrupt shift from that CD completing and moving over to Radio 4's choral broadcasts was always jarring.
   104. manchestermets Posted: November 18, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5902014)
More a Christmas EP than a Christmas album, but Slow Club*'s Christmas, Thanks For Nothing is wonderful, a mixture of original songs and covers.

*Indie-folk-pop boy/girl duo that I assume virtually nobody here has heard of. Rebecca now doing great business as <a >Self Esteem</a>.
   105. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: November 18, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5902015)
Weird moment of introspection there: I realized, typing 103, that my father's music choice extended to pretty much zero non-white artists. 'A Very Special Christmas' has a few, and my mother managed to get Stevie Wonder's 'Talking Book' played a few times. My dad had a couple of mix tapes from friends with a real variety, and regularly played Grover Washington, Jr.'s 'Winelight', but that was pretty much it. And since my father controlled the soundtrack for the house and car in my youth - children's audiobooks aside - that probably affected me more than I realised. Learning saxophone in my teen years opened up a whole lot more genres.

Which isn't to say at all that I think my father's choice in music was deliberately exclusionary! Just that as a white guy from the South-East of England who went to college in Wales and settled in the Cotswolds, he pretty much missed out on the Northern Soul movement as far as I can tell, and his affection for prog rock, synth-pop and electronica didn't necessarily lend itself to a highly diverse collection in that sense. I did at least get him started with some Cannonball Adderley, but perhaps I should take that as a challenge for the next CD I get him.
   106. Baldrick Posted: November 18, 2019 at 12:16 PM (#5902019)
I spent the week before Christmas in Oxford last year. I think I mentioned it here then, but the experience of walking around town and hearing them play Do They Know It's Christmas like it's just a normal song was really jarring. With the important counterbalance that they also just playing Fairytale of New York like it's a normal thing, too.

DTKIC is almost certainly the WORST Christmas song for me, but absent that experience last year I basically never hear it, so I would be much more inclined to ban the repulsive Jingle Bell Rock, which I hate and which is played constantly around me.
   107. Baldrick Posted: November 18, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5902020)
I listened to a Carissa's Wierd album last night. I liked it more than I had in the past. In previous listens the music felt mopey, which I don't usually like, but last night it sounded more dark than mopey, which I do like. Reminded me of another 90s band that I adore, Low, which performs indie rock funeral dirges at a glacial pace, but also patiently builds grooves up, which I love. It was like that, but with a crunchier/folky vibe. Also I was drinking by myself in a dark room next to my roaring wood stove, which might have been a good atmosphere for the music.

The Low comparison is a good one. I had a friend in grad school from Minneapolis who immediately jumped to that comparison when I introduced him. He flew out for the show this weekend (and, like me, to visit family) and we were talking about that specific comparison right before the show. Definitely not exactly the same vibe, but they strike some of the same pleasure centers in my brain.
I, too, am a Carissa's Wierd fan, though they're not necessarily one of my all-time favorites. But I lived in Seattle apparently at the same time Baldrick did and we apparently were at some shows together, life is weird and crazy like that. (We've probably discussed this before, my memory is crap.)

Always fun to see the little ways in which the world is actually very tiny.
   108. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 18, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5902024)
For nontraditional Christmas music I like "Merry Axemas: A Guitar Christmas" featuring Steve Vai's treatment of "Christmas Time is Here". Also "Christmas Cookin'" by jazz/blues organist Jimmy Smith.
   109. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 18, 2019 at 01:25 PM (#5902045)
carissa's weird has never really grabbed me but i do like jenn champion's solo work.
   110. I Helped Patrick McGoohan Escape Posted: November 18, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5902049)
The dB's put together a fun Christmas album if you're a fan of jangle rock

I do enjoy putting on the Spector album around this time of year too.

The best non-traditional Christmas song, though, has to be this gem from Wizzard - I Wish It Could Be Christmas Everyday
   111. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 18, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5902072)
As for winter holiday music, Sufjan’s Christmas Unicorn is an inner circle all-time great for me (it doubles as a joy division cover by the end). At some point next month, I will listen to it on a loop.
   112. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 18, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5902078)
I like Paul McCartney’s “Wonderful Christmastime”. There, I’ve said it. Now, don’t get me wrong. I hardly think it’s one of Paul’s best songs, or even one of his best solo songs. It’s no “Maybe I’m Amazed”, or “Junior’s Farm”, or “Jet”. It’s not as good as “Mamunia” or “Magneto and Titanium Man”, for that matter. I know that it’s despised by many people. But it does exactly what it’s supposed to do – be a bouncy, happy, simple, Christmas singalong. One day last year I heard it played at a basketball game, and ended up humming it in the car all the way home. It’s inconsequential (as long as it doesn't get overplayed - I've never had to listen to it against my will on a tape loop), but it's a nice enough little tune. Now, if you want to say that it has one of the worst cut-and-paste covers ever printed, that we can agree on…
   113. PreservedFish Posted: November 18, 2019 at 03:23 PM (#5902091)
I don't think it's totally terrible, but it's not a good enough song to merit its ubiquity. I could imagine a world where it's not on every Christmas playlist, where it's enjoyed as a charming oddity. It's one of McCartney's many low-effort filler tracks. He recorded a lot of material as a solo artist that's modestly entertaining but also kind of disappointing.
   114. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: November 18, 2019 at 03:40 PM (#5902097)
I always had a low-key affection for 'Driving Home for Christmas', as a kind of slightly zen, leaving the office for the holidays type of wistfulness. It's an experience I've never had, though I must admit that 'taking the commuter rail home for Christmas but being delayed somewhat outside Swindon by a signal failure' doesn't really have the same lyricism.
   115. jmurph Posted: November 18, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5902105)
I think the bar has to be a little lower for the newish/original/alt Christmas songs, because the actual Christmas canon is basically like 8 total songs. I love it but I can't just listen to 19 different versions of Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas.
   116. Manny Coon Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5902113)
As far as newer Christmas records go, the Kacey Musgraves one is my favorite by a good margin. It's secular, it's fun, not overly serious, has a mix of traditional and new songs and some good guest spots.
   117. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5902114)
I have a soft spot for the "A Los Campesinos! Christmas" EP. Songs like "A Doe to a Deer" and "Kindle a Flame in Her Heart" stand as good songs regardless of the time of year.
   118. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:27 PM (#5902115)
I assume from vortex's last two posts that no female Japanese band has ever recorded a Christmas song ;).
   119. Baldrick Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:36 PM (#5902118)
I have a soft spot for the "A Los Campesinos! Christmas" EP. Songs like "A Doe to a Deer" and "Kindle a Flame in Her Heart" stand as good songs regardless of the time of year.

I have never heard this and am going to rectify that immediately. Sounds awesome.
   120. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5902121)
I assume from vortex's last two posts that no female Japanese band has ever recorded a Christmas song ;).


My favorite two J-rock Christmas songs:

"R.G.W." by PUFFY. The first minute is a bit annoying, but after that, it's not a bad song at all. The bridge, with its Beatles' influenced "Love, love, love..." is wonderful.

"White Snow, Champagne and X'mas SONG" by the brilliant green. Considering that this track was only released as a non-LP b-side, it's a miracle that someone has posted this fan-made video on YouTube. But this lovely acoustic song by the brilliant green, "Shiroi Yuki to Champagne to X'mas SONG" ("White Snow, Champagne and an X'mas SONG") nudges the PUFFY song as my favorite J-rock Christmas song.

:-)
   121. Manny Coon Posted: November 18, 2019 at 04:52 PM (#5902125)
Yeah, the Los Campesinos! Christmas is something I like, they are one of my favorite bands, but it's more niche; When Christmas Comes is also good and the slower ones are good when the mood is right. One reason I like the Musgraves one is that I can play it around kids, old people, friends, people with more mainstream tastes and generally not get complaints.

   122. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 18, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5902173)
Haven't listened to it in awhile, but last year's Old 97's Xmas album seemed pretty darned solid at the time.
   123. yo la tengo Posted: November 19, 2019 at 08:38 AM (#5902232)
I can definitely endorse the dB's Christmas album. We also love the McGarrigle Christmas hour at our home
   124. PreservedFish Posted: November 19, 2019 at 08:48 AM (#5902236)
I've been listening to this guy for the past few hours.
   125. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 19, 2019 at 07:36 PM (#5902483)
Justice Department Moves to End Paramount Antitrust Decrees

Those are the antitrust decrees that turned the old studio system into the current model.

December 2022, at your local multiplex:
Screen #1: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle
Screen #2: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle
Screen #3: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle
Screen #4: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle
Screen #5: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle in 3-D
Screen #6: Star Wars Episode 11: Battle of the Struggle in 3-D Vibra-Ass
Screen #7: Pocahontas vs. Heffalumps
Screen #8: Pocahontas vs. Heffalumps
Screen #9: Pocahontas vs. Heffalumps
Screen #10: Pocahontas vs. Heffalumps: Director's Cut
Screen #11: M.O.D.O.K.: Ahead of the Game
Screen #12: M.O.D.O.K.: Ahead of the Game: IMAX
Screen #13: M.O.D.O.K. vs. IMAX: Ahead of the Game
Screen #14: Ant-Man rerelease, with a new post-post-post-credits Easter egg stinger
   126. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 20, 2019 at 01:07 AM (#5902520)
So Ferris Bueller happened to be on tonight, and I’m watching it for the first time in years. Something about the classic scene where they leave the Ferrari in the parking garage struck me as strangely familiar. Did a little research, and it turns out that 30+ years later, I park in that same garage every day. I find this far cooler than I realistically should.
   127. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: November 20, 2019 at 04:28 AM (#5902526)
Screen #10: Pocahontas vs. Heffalumps: Director's Cut


A big improvement on the R-Rated release, but the subtext that Pocahantas was unknowingly a Woozle all along should have been left implied.
   128. chisoxcollector Posted: November 20, 2019 at 08:30 AM (#5902534)
More a Christmas EP than a Christmas album, but Slow Club*'s Christmas, Thanks For Nothing is wonderful, a mixture of original songs and covers.

*Indie-folk-pop boy/girl duo that I assume virtually nobody here has heard of. Rebecca now doing great business as <a >Self Esteem</a>.

I actually listen to their song “Beginners” all the time. I only found it because of the fact that Daniel Radcliffe stars in the music video, but the song has stuck in my rotation ever since.

   129. Baldrick Posted: November 20, 2019 at 12:25 PM (#5902621)
More a Christmas EP than a Christmas album, but Slow Club*'s Christmas, Thanks For Nothing is wonderful, a mixture of original songs and covers.

*Indie-folk-pop boy/girl duo that I assume virtually nobody here has heard of. Rebecca now doing great business as <a >Self Esteem</a>.

It will probably not surprise anyone here that I dig Slow Club. Hadn't heard this EP before, but will check it out today!
   130. Nasty Nate Posted: November 20, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5902626)
So Ferris Bueller happened to be on tonight, and I’m watching it for the first time in years. Something about the classic scene where they leave the Ferrari in the parking garage struck me as strangely familiar. Did a little research, and it turns out that 30+ years later, I park in that same garage every day. I find this far cooler than I realistically should.
Is Steve Shelley the attendant there now?
   131. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: November 20, 2019 at 12:51 PM (#5902634)
For nontraditional Christmas music I like




Death Metal Christmas Hellish takes on some of your favorite Christmas classics.
   132. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 07:15 PM (#5903598)
My 16 year old son has recently been talking about the band Tame Impala. From reviews I have read it seems I should like this band. I was just listening to Currents and it seems soulless and fussy. Can someone tell me where in their catalog I should start if I actually want to like this band and have something to share with my son's tastes?
   133. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 24, 2019 at 07:37 PM (#5903603)
"have something to share with my son's tastes"? You should each have the other taken away.

(I shared a fair amount of musical likes with my older former stepdaughter in particular, and judging from FB still do to some extent, but then we're only 10 years and 2 weeks apart. I blame her liking for garbage like Boston and the Eagles and Pink Floyd and I think Dave Matthews on her sorry, now-deceased excuse for a biological father. There's also the factor of her being exposed the last couple of decades to the music of her own kids, now both in college. No idea if that includes whatever the #### Lame Oompaloompa might be.)
   134. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5903609)
133 - What's the anger about here? Seems reasonable to help try and foster my son's developing interest in music by being able to talk to him about bands he might be interested in.
   135. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:09 PM (#5903619)
No anger, just an evocation of the old trope that parents hating kids' music and vice versa is one of the eternal verities of rock'n'roll (and probably other forms of music too).
   136. PreservedFish Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:15 PM (#5903620)
I love Tame Impala, certainly one of my favorite bands of the decade. I think that "Currents" is their worst album. Their previous two albums are much better, much more lively. Might as well start with Lonerism, the previous album, which is fantastic. I particularly like "Mind Mischief" and "Feels Like We Only Go Backwards."

Tame Impala is the most successful band of a very large and rich neo-psychedelic rock trend that I totally adore, my favorite thing happening in music today. Also, I love Yo La Tengo, so maybe there will be some common ground here. Other things you and your son might like:

Melody's Echo Chamber - French chick, produced by Tame Impala. From my top album of the decade, probably.

Unknown Mortal Orchestra - reminds me of Shuggie Otis

Khruangbin - Very exotic, groovy

Ty Segall - more of a snarly garage & Black Sabbath influence here

Vanishing Twin - 90's indie vibe, somewhat similar to Broadcast if you're familiar with them

Kikagaku Moyo - shameless 60s fetishists from Japan

Your son has good taste. Maybe you can even bring him round to your Yo La Tengo, to the Flaming Lips, Of Montreal, Deerhunter, Stereolab, Brian Jonestown Massacre, Sigur Ros... maybe even back to the Zombies. What does he like about Tame Impala?
   137. PreservedFish Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5903624)
No anger, just an evocation of the old trope that parents hating kids' music and vice versa is one of the eternal verities of rock'n'roll


Rock n roll is too young to have eternal verities, and while this trope was part of rock's foundational mythology, I don't think it applies anymore. Once upon a time we had the Bing Crosby generation furrowing its brow at Elvis and the Beatles. But not long thereafter it changed into the Clash generation raising the Green Day generation, and there wasn't much of a chasm to be bridged anymore. My mother loved Neil Young, I loved REM, why would either of us hate the other? Parents and children share literature that they love, they share recipes that they love...
   138. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:40 PM (#5903626)
He and I have been to a slew of concerts together in the past couple of years, most of them his choice. We've seen Tyler, The Creator, Kendrick Lamar, Brockhampton (just last night!), Gorillaz (my urging), Radiohead (we both love them), James Blake (his choice, I was pleased), Childish Gambino (a fantastic show - far exceeded my expectations), and Vampire Weekend (we both love them)

He is largely not moved by rock n roll bands so when he is I want to try and figure out why. He played a new Tame Impala song (It Might Be Time) for a presentation at our church recently and I am trying to figure this band out. Currents seemed so fussy to me - I will check out Lonerism. He mentioned trying to listen to Yo La Tengo but he finds them too mellow for his taste, maybe I need to put together a proper playlist for him.

Thanks for the Lonerism tip and the other tips. Of them I only know Ty Segall and I find him moderately interesting. I tried a couple of years ago to get him to love Hold Steady with no success. He has taken a shine to LCD Sounsdsystem from me playing them for him so that is a victory for sure.
   139. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:43 PM (#5903627)
137 - Yeah, thanks for saying this in a more eloquent way. I don't love all my son's tastes or my 10 year old daughter's tastes but there is no sense of reflexive rejection of my kids' tastes. I love music and want it to be part of our lives.
   140. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:45 PM (#5903628)
136 - He talks about the production, the sound of Tame Impala as being interesting to him. He has some aspirations to move into music production so the obvious care and detail appeal to him. He also talks about the melody and the lyrics of It Might be Time as being interesting to him
   141. Omineca Greg Posted: November 24, 2019 at 09:55 PM (#5903629)
Tame Impala reminds me of a certain strain of English psychedelic rock music from the late 60s: Mr. Fantasy, There Are But Four Small Faces, The Move. It's rock, but they pay a lot of attention to being catchy too.

I dunno, I don't really have any special insight into them.
   142. Omineca Greg Posted: November 24, 2019 at 10:09 PM (#5903632)
Two Roy Wood references on the same page! He's making his...move!
   143. PreservedFish Posted: November 24, 2019 at 10:23 PM (#5903635)
136 - He talks about the production, the sound of Tame Impala as being interesting to him. He has some aspirations to move into music production so the obvious care and detail appeal to him.


The Tame Impala guy has been drifting away from "Mr Fantasy" rock n roll and closer to electropop. He's also become a darling of the Top 40 set - Rihanna covered one of his songs, and I think he's collaborated with a bunch of big artists. "It Might Be Time" is part of this transition. I don't love it as much as I love the earlier stuff, but I still like it.

As far as I know Tame Impala is pretty much just one guy doing everything, which makes him an heir to folks like Stevie Wonder, Prince, McCartney, Rundgren, Shuggie Otis, (and Roy Wood!!) not just in the one-man-band sense but also in the tendency towards lush, complex, big albums with loads of ideas stuffed into them.

If the kid is less into the rock side of it, maybe he'd like Toro y Moi or Neon Indian. Not as big and danceable as LCD Soundsystem, but it has that electro-psych feel that Tame Impala has been going after recently. Does he like The Internet or Steve Lacy?
   144. yo la tengo Posted: November 24, 2019 at 10:37 PM (#5903637)
He digs Steve Lacy and was happy to hear him collaborate with Vampire Weekend. When we saw them at MSG Lacy took the stage for two songs. My son is also a Prince fan. The reference to The Move earlier is interesting to me as they are another band that I feel I should love more than I do
   145. PreservedFish Posted: November 24, 2019 at 10:53 PM (#5903639)
Your son is doing great. Hope my kids also grow to have fine taste in music.
   146. manchestermets Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:58 AM (#5903650)
Death Metal Christmas Hellish takes on some of your favorite Christmas classics.


Greensleeves? Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy? Christmas songs?
   147. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:44 AM (#5903651)
if you could ban one Christmas song from ever being played again, which would it be?


Little Drummer Boy. Hands down, the worst song of any type in the entire world.
   148. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 25, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5903663)
PF's 136 and 143 are very good posts.
(I actually like Currents a lot, likely the album of his I've listened to the most - but it is doing a different thing. That said, the singles from Parker's upcoming follow-up leave me cold.)

Also, PF, I think a previous post of yours alerted me to MEC in the first place and I've enjoyed the heck out of both her albums. (The first one, ylt, sounds very much like early Tame Impala, the second one made years later after she and the TI guy broke up is its own thing and kind of a chaotic hodge podge of sounds (in the more ideas than time to express them sort of way, which I can be a sucker for).)
   149. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 25, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5903665)
Little Drummer Boy. Hands down, the worst song of any type in the entire world.


Johnny Cash and Ray Charles showed there's some weight there, if you move away from the cute kid and toward the power of music.
   150. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5903667)
"Little Drummer Boy" from my favorite Christmas album mentioned above - sounds like My Bloody Valentine scored a film scene of soldiers marching off to certain death.
   151. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 25, 2019 at 10:15 AM (#5903676)
if you could ban one Christmas song from ever being played again, which would it be?


Little Drummer Boy. Hands down, the worst song of any type in the entire world.


I was thinking about that song, but the David Bowie/Bing Crosby version is pretty good. (Granted with another song layered on it)
   152. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 10:26 AM (#5903681)
Little Drummer Boy. Hands down, the worst song of any type in the entire world.

"Happy Holidays" is orders of magnitude worse.

This may be the worst single lyric ever written.

It's the holiday season
So hoop-de-do and hickory dock
And don't forget to hang up your sock
'Cause just exactly at 12 o'clock
He'll be coming down the chimney, down
   153. Lassus Posted: November 25, 2019 at 11:32 AM (#5903711)
Greensleeves?

GAH!

The worst use of one of the most beautiful folksongs ever written. I love Christmas, and even Christmas music; but there are certain crimes that are not forgivable for any reason, such as turning that song into What Child is This.

Alas, my love, you do me wrong,
To cast me off discourteously.
And I have loved you oh so long,
Delighting in your company.

Greensleeves was all my joy
Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves was my heart of gold,
And who but my lady greensleeves.

I have been ready at your hand,
To grant whatever you would crave,
I have both wagered life and land,
Your love and good-will for to have.

Greensleeves was all my joy
Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves was my heart of gold,
And who but my lady greensleeves.

Well, I will pray to God on high,
that thou my constancy mayst see,
And that yet once before I die,
Thou wilt vouchsafe to love me.

Greensleeves was all my joy
Greensleeves was my delight,
Greensleeves was my heart of gold,
And who but my lady greensleeves.


   154. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 25, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5903721)
Whereby I am reminded that the first incarnation of Frank Herbert's The Green Brain (which I haven't read ... indeed, the only thing of his I've perused is Under Pressure, which was pretty darned good) appeared in a prozine under the title Greenslaves.

ETA: Actually, I was reminded of no such thing but rather informed by the ISFDB, because memory -- going by the best-of-the-rest listing in the back of one of Judith Merril's annual best-ofs from the mid-'60s -- falsely assured me that it was a short story by Ted Sturgeon.
   155. flournoy Posted: November 25, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5903722)
if you could ban one Christmas song from ever being played again, which would it be?


Lots of solid choices for this... I'd say Rocking around the Christmas Tree. Nails on a chalkboard to me.
   156. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5903723)
Jacques Brel, "Amsterdam", a Greensleeves ripoff. This song is a good example for me of how a passionate singer can communicate emotion even if you don't know what the hell he's singing about.
   157. Manny Coon Posted: November 25, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5903725)
Mary, Did You Know is an awful song, although it's not played nearly as much as something like Wonderful Christmastime.
   158. Lassus Posted: November 25, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5903732)
Jacques Brel, "Amsterdam", a Greensleeves ripoff.

I'll commit the hater sin of having found Brel to be simply too overwrought for my taste whenever I've listened to him; but in fairness to him as the writer I wouldn't consider this to be a ripoff of Greensleeves. Similar melodic content in the opening phrase, but different tonality and song structure as you go on.
   159. Baldrick Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:16 PM (#5903784)
On the subject of terrible Christmas songs, here's my post reporting on my poll results.

Warning: many very bad songs are discussed.
   160. Howie Menckel Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:32 PM (#5903795)
surprised to see the buy-in there on the embarrassingly ignorant 2019 objections to "Baby, It's Cold Outside."

for those who don't know, the song is a romantic flirtation of its era. the lady is very interested - but by the standards of the day, she is supposed to go home.

when she says "what's in this drink?" it is one of numerous half-hearted 'objections' she raises as she dances on fence of staying or, per convention, leaving. people who are too dumb to grasp that nuance are, well, too dumb.
   161. Scott Lange Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5903800)
#160 - but we're not in "its era." We are, in fact, in 2019, so, it doesn't seem crazy to not care for 2019 incarnations/performances of the song. (It's also debatable whether your interpretation is "correct," even in the context of 1944, but I'll leave that alone for now.)

Baldrick - when is your post on the best Christmas songs survey coming? I'm eager to see if anyone else is joining my one-man Christmas Wrapping bandwagon.
   162. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5903802)
It's a romantic flirtation of its era - obviously the songwriter didn't intend it to be explicitly about date rape - but "it's of its era!" doesn't excuse everything. One could reasonably see it as an embodiment of the entrenched power imbalance between men and women of the time, and find the whole thing icky or offensive. One could also see it as a righteous expression of female sexual power, a woman pushing against the boundaries of stifling polite society.
   163. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:53 PM (#5903804)
I'm eager to see if anyone else is joining my one-man Christmas Wrapping bandwagon.


100% with you on this one.
   164. Scott Lange Posted: November 25, 2019 at 02:59 PM (#5903806)
One could reasonably see it as an embodiment of the entrenched power imbalance between men and women of the time, and find the whole thing icky or offensive. One could also see it as a righteous expression of female sexual power, a woman pushing against the boundaries of stifling polite society.


Right - neither of these interpretations are crazy. I think both are at least partly true.
   165. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5903824)
It's a romantic flirtation of its era - obviously the songwriter didn't intend it to be explicitly about date rape - but "it's of its era!" doesn't excuse everything. One could reasonably see it as an embodiment of the entrenched power imbalance between men and women of the time, and find the whole thing icky or offensive. One could also see it as a righteous expression of female sexual power, a woman pushing against the boundaries of stifling polite society.

Where's the power imbalance? She clearly has the right and ability to leave anytime she wants. He's basically begging her to stay, but there's not even a sub-context that anything is stopping her from leaving except her own desires.
   166. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:01 PM (#5903826)
The whole situation, snapper, which has entirely different social standards for the man and the woman about to engage in pre-marital sex.
   167. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5903831)
The whole situation, snapper, which allows a man to #### anything that walks but threatens a woman with social disaster should she spend the night with a man she's not married to.

That's a (probably inaccurate) caricature of the era's mores, but really has nothing to do with the song.

She's clearly giving excuses. Maybe she's undecided on whether to stay or not? Maybe she's just having fun with him? Again, in the context of the song and the events depicted, she has all the sexual power.
   168. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:14 PM (#5903832)
I think it's open to interpretation how much the song is about sexual coercion. She's obviously interested in him and part of her obviously wants to stay. At the same time, you can believe that she needs some convincing. If the dude just says "I guess you're right, you should probably go," the lady probably leaves, and the song ends.
   169. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:17 PM (#5903834)
That's a (probably inaccurate) caricature of the era's mores, but really has nothing to do with the song.


I edited because I realized that my comment was flippant and exaggerated.

But it absolutely has to do with the song. The guy just wants booty. The woman is weighing the consequences.

Maybe you could say that the guy is just stupid and stands to reap the same social consequences, but that seems unlikely to me.
   170. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:17 PM (#5903835)
I think it's open to interpretation how much the song is about sexual coercion. She's obviously interested in him and part of her obviously wants to stay. At the same time, you can believe that she needs some convincing. If the dude just says "I guess you're right, you should probably go," the lady probably leaves, and the song ends.

Well, that would be signalling he wasn't interested, so, yeah. The fact that they ended up alone, late at night, drinking at his house/apartment indicates a high degree of interest from both parties.
   171. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5903837)
But it absolutely has to do with the song. The guy just wants booty. The woman is weighing the consequences.

It was written by a husband and wife duo. The guy wants sex, but there's no indication that this is a "booty call". In the mores of the era, a woman would not be alone at a guys house late at night unless they were in a significant relationship.

Maybe you could say that the guy is just stupid and stands to reap the same social consequences, but that seems unlikely to me.

No, he would reap lesser social consequences. There was clearly a "double standard", but the "double standard" was not misogyny but a recognition that, prior to reliable birth control, the consequences of sex were very different for men and women. For 99.99% of human history, sex was expensive for women and cheap for men; the mores simply reflected that.
   172. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 25, 2019 at 04:54 PM (#5903848)
If only Satan hadn't ruined everything by inventing birth control.
   173. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 05:08 PM (#5903850)
If only Satan hadn't ruined everything by inventing birth control.

???? My statement was positive, not normative. Are you seriously going to argue that the double standard around male/female promiscuity doesn't stem from the fact that women bear the vast majority of the cost of extra-marital births?
   174. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 25, 2019 at 05:30 PM (#5903858)
It was written by a husband and wife duo.


It was introduced in a movie that featured two couples. For one couple, the man sang the Wolf, the woman the Mouse. For the other couple it was reversed, with the woman (Betty Garrett) the Wolf.
   175. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 25, 2019 at 05:46 PM (#5903864)
If only Satan hadn't ruined everything by inventing birth control.

???? My statement was positive, not normative.


I was under the impression that birth control is a sin. Glad to hear that you & yours have cast that nonsense aside.
   176. Omineca Greg Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:02 PM (#5903867)
The best way to write a sexy Christmas song and not risk upsetting listeners with the changing mores of romance and the appropriateness of certain gestures, attitudes, and activities between men and women is actually so straight forward, you'll be embarrassed that you didn't think of it yourself.

Leave out the women.

Greasy, sweaty, man on man action. It's festive enough all year round, but at Christmas...it can be sublime.

You'll probably get sweaters
Underwear and socks
But what you'd really like for Christmas
Is a nice hard ####
You deserve a cute boy
Who's horny and queer
To make the most out
Of Christmas cheer
I wanna be your Christmas present
I wanna be your Christmas queer
I wanna be your Christmas present
Have a homo Christmas this year


It gets even better from there. Rhyming "Christmas tree" with "Morrissey"?...C'mon! That's brilliant.

I'm warning you, it's so catchy, to listen to it once is to risk having it permanently running through your mind.

Homo Christmas
   177. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:16 PM (#5903871)
Kay Martin's "I Know What You Want for Christmas" is pretty dirty.
   178. Omineca Greg Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:33 PM (#5903874)
Another under-explored topic for Christmas music is the time dilation experienced by near light-speed travellers.

I mean, there's one song...

Well I know that on Earth it is Christmas now
And I hope there'll be days in the snow
When I return many light years on
Though my friends will have died long ago

And the rain makes a sound like the asteroids
There are worlds made of ice in the clouds
I'm receiving transmissions they broadcast long ago
They remind me of things I have seen
All the people and cities and crowds

Ring the bells, ring the bells, ring them
Ring the bells, ring the bells, I can still hear them
Here on the way to the stars

About now back on earth it is Christmas time
There'll be logs in the grate, they will burn
I'm alone tape recording memories
For it all will have changed when I return

And the rain is so strange in the Milky Way
I see cloudscapes of purple and green
Candleabras are shooting off firework displays
And I'm writing the things I have seen
People shopping and sparks from a train

Well I know that on Earth it is Christmas now
But in space time goes by so slow
At the speed of light one single night
Is a year to the people back home


Momus...Christmas on Earth
   179. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:39 PM (#5903875)
OG, do you just, like...know this stuff off the top of your head??
   180. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 25, 2019 at 06:52 PM (#5903878)
I was under the impression that birth control is a sin. Glad to hear that you & yours have cast that nonsense aside.

Why do you want to go OTP?
   181. Omineca Greg Posted: November 25, 2019 at 07:09 PM (#5903885)
OG, do you just, like...know this stuff off the top of your head??


Well, for those two I did. I have a good memory for stuff like that. Sometimes the memories exist in the fuzzier parts of my mind, and they need a quick DuckDuckGo to bring them up to the surface. I suppose it's only going to get worse as I get older.

I remembered all the words to this one, except for the verse about Mario, which I drew a complete blank on.

Oh well.

Christmas Card From A Hooker In Minneapolis"

Hey Charlie I'm pregnant and living on 9th Street
Right above a dirty bookstore off Euclid Avenue
And I stopped takin dope and I quit drinkin whiskey
And my old man plays the trombone and works out at the track

He says that he loves me even though it's not his baby
He says that he'll raise him up like he would his own son
And he gave me a ring that was worn by his mother
And he takes me out dancin every Saturday night

And hey Charlie I think about you everytime I pass a fillin station
On account of all the grease you used to wear in your hair
And I still have that record of Little Anthony and the Imperials
But someone stole my record player now how do you like that?

Hey Charlie I almost went crazy after Mario got busted
I went back to Omaha to live with my folks
But everyone I used to know was either dead or in prison
So I came back to Minneapolis this time I think I'm gonna stay

Hey Charlie I think I'm happy for the first time since my accident
And I wish I had all the money we used to spend on dope
I'd buy me a used car lot and I wouldn't sell any of em
I'd just drive a different car every day dependin on how I feel

Hey Charlie for chrissakes if you want to know the truth of it
I don't have a husband he don't play the trombone
I need to borrow money to pay this lawyer and Charlie hey
I'll be eligible for parole come Valentine's day

Waits
   182. yo la tengo Posted: November 25, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5903888)
161 - Scott I will join your Christmas Wrapping bandwagon. Awesome song
   183. yo la tengo Posted: November 25, 2019 at 07:41 PM (#5903889)
PF - You recommend Toro Y Moi. Where should I start?
   184. Baldrick Posted: November 25, 2019 at 08:21 PM (#5903898)
Didn't get enough responses to the 'favorite Xmas songs' request so I won't be writing anything up there. But yes, Christmas Wrapping is great.
   185. Lassus Posted: November 25, 2019 at 09:28 PM (#5903904)
surprised to see the buy-in there on the embarrassingly ignorant 2019 objections to "Baby, It's Cold Outside."

for those who don't know, the song is a romantic flirtation of its era. the lady is very interested - but by the standards of the day, she is supposed to go home.

when she says "what's in this drink?" it is one of numerous half-hearted 'objections' she raises as she dances on fence of staying or, per convention, leaving. people who are too dumb to grasp that nuance are, well, too dumb.

OK, Boomer.
   186. Lassus Posted: November 25, 2019 at 09:37 PM (#5903905)
For OG, for the awesome Waits tune from Blue Valentine:
I Want an Alien for Christmas

This year for Christmas
There's something I'd really like
So if you're up there somewhere santa
Please don't bring me another bike

I don't need any ugly sweaters
And I don't play much basketball
But there's something kinda special
That I want most of all

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy
About three feet high
With seventeen eyes
Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year

He can live in the bath tub
So don't worry about a thing
And I'll take him out for walks
When it gets nicer in the spring

I'll always keep him company
He'll never be alone
And we can hang around the house all day
And watch the twilight zone

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy
About three feet high
With seventeen eyes
Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy
About three feet high
With seventeen eyes
Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year
I want an alien for Christmas this year
   187. Omineca Greg Posted: November 26, 2019 at 01:05 AM (#5903933)
Thanks, Lassus.

How 'bout this one? I think Maddy's singing is beautiful...

Gaudete, gaudete! Christus est natus
Ex Maria virgine: Gaudete!

Tempus adest gratiae, Hoc quod optabamus
Carmina laetitiae Devote redamus.

Deus homo factus est Natura mirante,
Mundus renovatus est A Christo regnante.

Ezecheelis porta clausa per transitur
Unde Lux est orta Salus invenitur.

Ergo nostra contio psallat iam in lustro,
Benedicat Domino salus Regi nostro.

Rejoice! Rejoice!
Christ is born of the Virgin Mary; Rejoice!

The time of grace has come for which we have prayed
Let us devoutly sing songs of joy.

God is made man, while nature wonders
The world is renewed by Christ the King.

The closed gate of Ezekiel has been passed through
From where the light has risen (the East), salvation is found.

Therefore, let our assembly sing praises now at this time of purification
Let it bless the Lord: greetings to our King.

Gaudete

That's a Top 20 hit, folks.
   188. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: November 26, 2019 at 04:23 AM (#5903947)
I had a long weekend with a lot of travel, so I quickly finished A Memory Called Empire, by Arkady Martine. Recommended as having similarities to Iain M. Banks' 'Culture' series, and it certainly lives up to it, with a large amount of diplomatic manoeuvring and backstabbing foregrounded against a universe of distant alien threat, calcifying and bureaucratic empire, etc. The story is relatively streamlined and direct, the world-building is entertaining (Chinese-influenced poetry as cultural unifier with ciphers hidden inside it, a character who chooses a name along the lines of 'Seven All-Terrain Tundra Vehicle'), and the prose is just decorative enough to add personality.

Highly recommended if you like Banks, The Expanse, and maybe the original Dune books.
   189. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: November 26, 2019 at 09:56 AM (#5903973)
Why do you want to go OTP?


Watched Midsommar this weekend & Them That Follow a couple of weeks ago; religion & its, uh, vagaries are probably more on my mind than usual, even.
   190. Lassus Posted: November 26, 2019 at 09:56 AM (#5903974)
!!

A wheelhouse recommendation. Thanks, Ben.
   191. Lassus Posted: November 27, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5904299)
Moulin Rouge is the best movie musical of the last 30 years.
   192. manchestermets Posted: November 28, 2019 at 05:58 AM (#5904322)
   193. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 28, 2019 at 03:34 PM (#5904385)
That's a Top 20 hit, folks.


Indeed. #14 on the UK charts in 1973.
   194. PreservedFish Posted: November 28, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5904392)
movie musical


This morning I was watching the Thanksgiving Day Parade with the kids and it struck me that there is probably no art form that resonates with me less than the Broadway musical. I find it astonishing that there is any living human that would buy tickets to see Beetlejuice the Musical.

I did enjoy Moulin Rouge, though, when I saw it in 2002 or whenever it was.
   195. PreservedFish Posted: November 28, 2019 at 04:34 PM (#5904396)
PF - You recommend Toro Y Moi. Where should I start?

Sorry YLT, I don't know Toro y Moi well enough to make recommendations off the top of my head. I know that he was originally one of the big "chillwave" artists and that in the years since that minigenre swept the hipster world he's tried out a bunch of different sounds and influences - hip-hop, psych, soul - and that I like just about everything I've heard. The album I've listened to most is probably Chaz Bundick Meets the Mattson 2, which has a bunch of very retro psychedelic jamming.
   196. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 28, 2019 at 04:52 PM (#5904400)
there is probably no art form that resonates with me less than the Broadway musical. I find it astonishing that there is any living human that would buy tickets to see Beetlejuice the Musical.
That much we can definitely agree on.
   197. Omineca Greg Posted: November 28, 2019 at 06:49 PM (#5904415)
Indeed. #14 on the UK charts in 1973.

Erasure did a version of "Gaudete" in 2013 for their Christmas album, Snow Globe.

I have to admit I was a little disappointed by their version, I was hoping for all kinds of Andy Bell falsetto whoop-ass, and although he does do that for one verse, mainly he chants it. The whole thing has a kind of a Kraftwerk meets Delirium vibe that I'm not sure the world was exactly calling out for.

But the video...the video is great! Totally brings the pagan. It's one of my realisations that America is nowhere near as in touch with its pagan roots as it should be. Most Yanks think that Spinal Tap's "Stonehenge" is a joke.

Stonehenge is no joke.

Nothing beats Stonehenge.

Well...except Paperhenge.

HA HA! You see, once you take Stonehenge seriously, then it's OK to make Stonehenge jokes.

Anyway, "Gaudete" done Erasure style.

Now if you bothered to watch that, I know exactly what you're thinking. You're thinking, "That wasn't Pagan, that was Gothic! Is Greg trippin' balls?"

Sure, it's a little bit Gothic, but it's also a little bit Pagan. It's like Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, but instead of peanut butter and chocolate, it's Gothic and Pagan. Have you never seen Wicker Man? Not the Nicolas Cage one, the Woodward/Lee one.
   198. Lassus Posted: November 28, 2019 at 09:14 PM (#5904428)
there is probably no art form that resonates with me less than the Broadway musical. I find it astonishing that there is any living human that would buy tickets to see Beetlejuice the Musical.

That much we can definitely agree on.

Shoot higher, people. There are fabulous indie musicals like Falsettoland/March of the Falsettos. There are Gershwin masterpieces like Strike up the Band. There are modern masterworks like Wicked. The list goes on. Starting and ending with Beetlejuice is just dumb.


I did enjoy Moulin Rouge, though, when I saw it in 2002 or whenever it was.

Close. 2001. Pre-9/11, a lifetime ago. I saw it at the Ziegfeld.
   199. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 29, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5904501)
I just got back from seeing Knives Out. It is awesome. Go see it, it is awesome.
   200. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: November 29, 2019 at 10:21 PM (#5904508)
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