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Wednesday, March 01, 2017

OT - March 2017 NBA thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of bothered to submit a monthly thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  I dunno, baseball, maybe?  Probably politics, but maybe some baseball, too.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: March 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM | 7430 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   5901. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5476793)
I don't think so, but I obviously have no evidence or knowledge. If Utah were notably worse as a team than Boston is, then yeah. As it is, I think he will stay in Utah. Obvious caveats are whether he buys into the idea that playing in the same conference with Golden State is something to be avoided if at all possible, and how he feels about Brad Stevens. I am not buying the Miami rumors. Utah is a demonstrably positive situation for Hayward, and it is hard for me to see how changing teams would tangibly improve things for him.

Heard on some podcast yesterday that there are reports that he's hesitant to play with Isaiah, given the ball dominance. I would A. understand that but also B. trust the coaching staff to figure it out.

Also I'm happy to report that, several months after everyone smarter than me realized this, I've come around to the idea that it's obviously a good idea for Boston to give Hayward the max. It's their best and fastest way to shrinking the gap with Cleveland (not closing it, mind you, but shrinking it).
   5902. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5476795)
Those guys might not be the stars of the team, but they were certainly role players on the team that won 58 games. It just took them 3 seasons to do it.
none of those players have even been in the NBA for 3 years. korkmaz doesn't have a contract yet. anderson was only a sixer for 2 months.

don't go pissing on the graves of their careers just yet.
   5903. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:26 PM (#5476797)
I think Ainge is up to something. I just don't believe he is going to hang onto the number one. It doesn't make any sense. I think he's going to reprise the big three moves only in grander fashion. Why wouldn't you? It can be done. Go to Heyward or Griffin or whomever, say we are trading the number one for (Superstar Y or Z) are you in?

I think that is what is going on. Keeping the pick has never made sense to me.
   5904. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5476799)
On the Woj Blake to Boston idea: I'm super intrigued but also terrified. He's obviously worth it if healthy, but counting on him to finish a season healthy at this point just seems like a bad idea, and that's the kind of thing that can wreck a franchise for several years. Gun to head I'd do it, but it's a risk.

Also I love the fit on the court: he's an underrated playmaker/passer and has reasonable range. I'd love to see Blake and Horford playing together.
   5905. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5476803)
'nothing' is a bit harsh.

i can still offer okafor, luwawu, korkmaz, mcconnell, anderson, #23 and every 2nd round pick in 2026. that's 5 recent/current 1st round picks and a competent young PG for IND to pick and choose from.


Value-wise, that's pretty close to nothing, at least relative to PG's value to Indy today.

Of course, I agree with what you're not explicitly saying - it's not worth the Sixers pursuing him for one year if he's going to leave. Which is why it doesn't make sense for Philly to trade for him. Now, Jimmy Butler would be a lot more valuable to them because he's signed for more than one year and I think Jimmy already is eligible for the supermax so the Sixers are buying that negotiating value.
   5906. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5476804)
I think Ainge is up to something. I just don't believe he is going to hang onto the number one. It doesn't make any sense. I think he's going to reprise the big three moves only in grander fashion. Why wouldn't you? It can be done. Go to Heyward or Griffin or whomever, say we are trading the number one for (Superstar Y or Z) are you in?

I think that is what is going on. Keeping the pick has never made sense to me.


I can see this. IT3/Horford/Heyward or Griffin/Butler* or George is a helluva team.

*Say they get Heyward, they probably could expand a deal with the Bulls to get Lopez and then fill in around that.
   5907. JJ1986 Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5476809)
JJ, are you interested in clearing up Portland's big man glut and upgrading the defense? How about Robin Lopez and #38 for Meyers Leonard, Ed Davis, and #15?
How long is Lopez signed for? I don't want to take on any money for the 2018-19 season when I'll have to start paying Nurkic.
   5908. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5476814)
i'm not sure why i'm asking but--
stiggles, wanna talk bob covington?
   5909. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5476821)
Value-wise, that's pretty close to nothing, at least relative to PG's value to Indy today.

Of course, I agree with what you're not explicitly saying - it's not worth the Sixers pursuing him for one year if he's going to leave. Which is why it doesn't make sense for Philly to trade for him. Now, Jimmy Butler would be a lot more valuable to them because he's signed for more than one year and I think Jimmy already is eligible for the supermax so the Sixers are buying that negotiating value.

that's why i said i'm betting on embiid. i think the sixers' core has a combination of talent and personality that might win paul george over and get him to resign.

i agree that butler is a more sensible target.


just spitting in the wind, maybe something like this is doable:
IND: dario saric, furkan korkmaz, bobby portis, #23
CHI: josh jackson, jahlil okafor, 2018 LAL #1
PHI: paul george, jimmy butler
   5910. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5476824)
If you guys don't start spelling Hayward's name correctly Booey is going to lose it.
   5911. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5476827)
gordan heyward?
   5912. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5476828)
Moses has an excuse--he is a big Cubs fan, so his main Heyward is Jason.
   5913. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5476829)
How long is Lopez signed for? I don't want to take on any money for the 2018-19 season when I'll have to start paying Nurkic.

He's under contract for 2 more years, which is 1 more than you'd like but 1 less than Meyers Leonard.
   5914. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5476835)
If it was good enough for Iron Head it is good enough for Gordon.
   5915. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5476838)
On the Paul George talk: I totally get the value discussion relating to the fact that he only has one more year left, but to Indiana, the chance that he gets All NBA and is eligible for the supermax and sticks around is a real thing that they have to consider. So if the choices are roll the dice or trade for a late first and various flotsam and jetsam, that's not a tough call at all. I think they still have to hold out for a reasonable return.

Also, if word got out that they were about to trade him for Saric and the #23 pick, that would be topped by 10 teams, minimum, inside of an hour.
   5916. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5476843)
I think they still have to hold out for a reasonable return.


If I ran a team, I would always be very reluctant to trade a Top-25/30 guy in his prime, even if he is more of a "#2 guy on a champion" type of guy, like George is. So, yeah. If I were Indiana I would probably take the "If he walks, then he walks" approach to George's trade valuation and not give him away for players/picks I didn't really want.
   5917. smileyy Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5476845)
PASTE, I'd swap the the 10 for the 13 and the second rounder.
   5918. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5476851)
smileyy; if one of the two guys I want is there at 10, I will accept that.
   5919. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5476858)
paul george: agree. indy should hold him until it's clear he's gone.
   5920. smileyy Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5476860)
Sounds good to me. Good luck!
   5921. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5476861)
Moses has an excuse--he is a big Cubs fan, so his main Heyward is Jason.

My excuse this time is I went with the way it was spelled in the part I was quoting. I should refuse to spell Jason Heyward's name right on principle.

Also, if word got out that they were about to trade him for Saric and the #23 pick, that would be topped by 10 teams, minimum, inside of an hour.

Yep, Indy hangs up on Philly for that 3 way. The Bulls would listen though.

paul george: agree. indy should hold him until it's clear he's gone.

Right. That Philly trade in particular tells the fans they give up on this year and the immediate future. Indy fans seem like they're pretty reactionary to that type of thing.
   5922. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5476866)
paul george: agree. indy should hold him until it's clear he's gone.
that may already be the case.
   5923. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5476871)
For the new page:


1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smiley) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC)
9. Dallas (billyshears)
10. Sacramento (smiley)
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)
13. Denver (PASTE)
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse)
15. Portland (JJ)
16. Chicago (Dandy)
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Indiana (King Mekong)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Philadelphia (via Toronto) (STIGGLES)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smiley)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Chicago (Dandy)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Indiana (King Mekong)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

NJ/JC representing the Knicks is on the clock.

Also I don't think Markkanen is a reach at all--he's started to crop up at #7 on some mocks.
   5924. JC in DC Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5476889)
NJ: you around? I'm leaning Nkitlina. I love that size and defensive possibility. NYK has had good international success lately. He will make mistakes, his shot needs work, but I like that potential.
   5925. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5476896)
I feel bad for Jazz fans. You guys really had something going on there.


I thought so too. Obviously we're still a few weeks away from knowing for sure, but if he does leave - coupled with the lack of competition at the top of the league - I think I'll be less interested in the upcoming season(s) than I ever have been in my almost 30 years of fandom. 7 years of rebuilding (even if it was a less painful rebuild than most) isn't worth just one good season.
   5926. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5476900)
I thought so too. Obviously we're still a few weeks away from knowing for sure, but if he does leave - coupled with the lack of competition at the top of the league - I think I'll be less interested in the upcoming season(s) than I ever have been in my almost 30 years of fandom. 7 years of rebuilding (even if it was a less painful rebuild than most) isn't worth just one good season.

I probably would have talked myself into a healthy Jazz team giving San Antonio a run for their money, if it had lined up that way. Ditto Houston. And maybe that would have been silly, but I would have felt that way. So I really can see both sides of Hayward's decision: we're good, and deep, and could get even better so I'm staying vs we're good, and deep, and still got our a$$es swept, so it's time to try to put it together somewhere else.
   5927. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5476910)
If you guys don't start spelling Hayward's name correctly Booey is going to lose it.


Heh. I actually was going to send out a correction post before seeing this one. :-D
   5928. MHS Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5476915)
he's hesitant to play with Isaiah


I think that's a reasonable concern. My guess is his usage does fall, but it likely falls more for IT. Based on their reported relationship, I would expect he would trust Brad to work it out. Who knows though.

I think Ainge is up to something. I just don't believe he is going to hang onto the number one. It doesn't make any sense. I think he's going to reprise the big three moves only in grander fashion


I don't think that is the case at all. I think the Celtics, are going to be pivoting to the future and focusing on gearing up for a future run. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that means they sell. I think they will try and keep their options open in the even something unforeseen falls in their lap but I don't think they are going to push all in. I think Danny is comfortable just keeping assets and flexibility. The big decision comes next summer with what to do about IT. I'm hopefully, they will be able to trade Bradley for value rather than letting him walk.

I'm pretty convinced that the Celtics are
1. Not good enough even if the add a max guy AND trade for PG or Butler.
2. If they do that, based on their current contract situation they are likely to be the biggest tax payer in the history of the league by a million miles.
3. 1+2 in combination is very bad.

Their is a very good series on Celticshub.com that goes into this.

On the Woj Blake to Boston idea:


Because of the above, I'm short the Blake idea. It would be fun, but I don't see him as part of future window. I like Gordon a ton more, not only because he is healthy but because he can also be part of a future winner, when it looks a little brigher.

Maybe they are trying to thread the needle to tightly, but the team described above is super expensive.





   5929. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:05 PM (#5476920)
7 years of rebuilding (even if it was a less painful rebuild than most) isn't worth just one good season.
It does look like he's gone, in which case the Jazz go from being a one-player-away type team to being a one-player team.
   5930. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5476925)
I'm really interested in Millsap's free agency, with reports that the Hawks expect to be outbid. So does that mean 3 or 4 year max? He'll turn 33 mid-season and had his worst season since like 2010 this year. What's he going to get, and who signs him? The Clippers if Blake/Reddick/etc. all leave? They probably couldn't even make that work. Dallas is always a threat to make a bad decision in free agency. Washington would make sense but they have no money to spend. Ditto Toronto.
   5931. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5476930)
re: 5928

I won't state it quite as pithily as others have in the past, but I think that would be a mistake. I'm not quite sure what the Celtics fanbase expects. To me (and I suspect to Ainge) the level of risk of trying to build around Fultz, Brown, the Nets pick, and trades is much, much, much higher than pushing the chips in now. They made the conference finals as is. LeBron turns 33 next season and has a lot of miles on him. His cast is crumbling. Why wait? What is this "future run" I come across so often with Celtics fans? A team that made the Eastern Finals that adds say PG and BG or something of that ilk isn't good enough?

Ainge has priors on this, he could surprise me, but I doubt it. I don't think he is plotting the half in half out approach.

   5932. MHS Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5476936)
J. Sosa - I hope you're right, that's a much more interesting future than what I envision.

With that said, take a look at this article, the cap math of the Celtics situation if It add the types of players discussed is pretty bad:

http://www.celticshub.com/2017/05/26/looking-forward-celtics-future/
   5933. . . . . . . Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5476938)
NJ: you around? I'm leaning Nkitlina. I love that size and defensive possibility. NYK has had good international success lately. He will make mistakes, his shot needs work, but I like that potential.


If the real Knicks take Nkitlina with Smith and Monk on the board I'll go apeshit. I'm all for picking internationals with upside over safe domestic choices, but Monk and Smith have a ton of upside! The Knicks don't need to go to Strasbourg (a lovely city, btw) to find someone who might be a multi-season all-star. And the floor for the domestic guys is much higher.
   5934. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5476939)
I'm really interested in Millsap's free agency, with reports that the Hawks expect to be outbid. So does that mean 3 or 4 year max? He'll turn 33 mid-season and had his worst season since like 2010 this year. What's he going to get, and who signs him? The Clippers if Blake/Reddick/etc. all leave? They probably couldn't even make that work. Dallas is always a threat to make a bad decision in free agency. Washington would make sense but they have no money to spend. Ditto Toronto.
on a related note, danilo gallinari is an interesting FA target who's often overlooked. i think he could explode offensively if he goes to the right team.
   5935. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5476942)
J. Sosa - I hope you're right, that's a much more interesting future than what I envision.

With that said, take a look at this article, the cap math of the Celtics situation if It add the types of players discussed is pretty bad:

http://www.celticshub.com/2017/05/26/looking-forward-celtics-future/
that article doesn't see the forest for the trees.

there's no reason to pay olynyk when you have zizic; there's no reason to keep both smart and bradley when you also have fultz, thomas and rozier.

get heywurd and butler now, and play hardball with thomas next summer.
   5936. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5476943)
It does look like he's gone, in which case the Jazz go from being a one-player-away type team to being a one-player team.

Yep. I don't like to play the armchair psychologist game very often, but everything he's said publically since the Jazz were ousted sounds like past tense; "I loved playing here," rather than "I love playing here." "The fans were great," rather than "The fans are great," etc. And he's talked about their progression from a 25 win team in 2014 to a 51 win team this season as if it's "mission accomplished" rather than just the beginning. But maybe I'm reading too much into generic, off the cuff comments. We'll see.

Sigh...Looks like the dreaded NBA mediocrity treadmill for a few years. At least when the Millsap/Big Al team was at that stage they had some young talent like Hayward, Favors, and Kanter that looked like they could develop into a good future core. There's nothing like that on this team that makes me optimistic about the future. Feels like Gobert's prime is just going to be wasted (and prevent Utah from getting any worthwhile draft picks).

   5937. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5476944)
i'm not sure why i'm asking but--
stiggles, wanna talk bob covington?
not at all, but i do like onuaku.
   5938. aberg Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5476945)
If the real Knicks take Nkitlina with Smith and Monk on the board I'll go apeshit. I'm all for picking internationals with upside over safe domestic choices, but Monk and Smith have a ton of upside! The Knicks don't need to go to Strasbourg (a lovely city, btw) to find someone who might be a multi-season all-star. And the floor for the domestic guys is much higher.

Setting aside team/fit, I think I would go Smith, Nkitlina, Monk, and the gaps aren't all that large. Nkitlina already shoots outside well enough that I don't think of him as a one way player, and his on-ball defense might be the greatest skill among those 3.
   5939. aberg Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5476947)
Gobert for Fultz!
   5940. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5476948)
get heywurd and butler now


I see what you did there. ;-)
   5941. jmurph Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:40 PM (#5476949)
on a related note, danilo gallinari is an interesting FA target who's often overlooked. i think he could explode offensively if he goes to the right team.

Agree, but he can't stay healthy. One full season in his career, two if you lower your bar to 71 games, which happened 4 years ago.
   5942. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5476951)
Gobert for Fultz!


I know this was tongue in cheek, but Gobert is going to be the only thing keeping the Jazz from awfulness the next 4 years and likely the only reason I'll even (maybe) give a damn, so I'm clinging to him for dear life!
   5943. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5476955)
I know this was tongue in cheek, but Gobert is going to be the only thing keeping the Jazz from awfulness the next 4 years and (likely) the only reason I'll even (maybe) give a damn, so I'm clinging to him for dear life!
you have ingles, too, right? and diaw!

maybe you could repay BOS next summer and steal isaiah thomas.
   5944. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:51 PM (#5476957)
If the real Knicks take Nkitlina with Smith and Monk on the board I'll go apeshit.


What's the upside comp for Monk, someone like Jason Terry or Hersey Hawkins?
   5945. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5476960)
maybe you could repay BOS next summer and steal isaiah thomas.


Nah. I'm just giving up chowder, baked beans, marathons, Cheers, and all Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, and Mark Wahlberg movies. That'll teach 'em.
   5946. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:54 PM (#5476961)
Because of the above, I'm short the Blake idea. It would be fun, but I don't see him as part of future window. I like Gordon a ton more, not only because he is healthy but because he can also be part of a future winner, when it looks a little brigher.

I'll grant you the injury thing, but Blake is only 1 year older (1 year and 1 week to be exact) and has been better pretty much every single year of their careers (they debuted the same season, so they also have similar NBA mileage). There is no scenario where Blake is too old but Huywert is the right age.
   5947. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 04:54 PM (#5476962)
MHS and Stiggles:

I think I should be concerned. I was going to post more or less what Stiggles posted.

I think there was too much focus in that article on players that frankly don't matter much. Get the stars, then worry about the rest. There will always be ring chasers, etc. At a certain point, yes, a team is going to be tapped out and locked in, but that is the way it goes in a cap league. Besides, last time around Ainge pulled a magic trick and turned a locked in aging core into multiple high value picks. Worrying about getting locked in and having too many good players is the kind of thing that ends up in a team going from Westbrook, Durant, Harden, to just Westbrook.

We will see, the Celtics roster construction is one of the more interesting team building exercises in recent memory. I'm looking forward to seeing how it shakes out.

edit to add:

I keep forgetting to mention, a big part of my thinking is also the level of player the Celtics are drafting. If it was a LeBron or a Shaq or somebody of that ilk, that would obviously change the thinking quite a bit on the long build vs the short build. But I just don't think Brown and Fultz are anywhere near that level of prospect, and I don't see one on the horizon next year either.
   5948. smileyy Posted: June 15, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5476967)
I do not like Malik Monk's short arms.
   5949. billyshears Posted: June 15, 2017 at 05:32 PM (#5476986)
I have to be out of pocket from about 5:50 through the rest of the evening. If the Knicks don't get their pick in by then, I'll post Dallas's top two choices in order and would appreciate if somebody could fill-in the pick when we are on the clock.
   5950. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5476994)
What's the upside comp for Monk, someone like Jason Terry or Hersey Hawkins?
monk's profile is pretty similar to guys like dragic, lillard, mccollum, beal, jrue holiday, (steph curry). he's a knockdown shooter, with good athleticism and combo-guard size. his upside depends on whether and how well he can create shots for himself and his teammates off the dribble.

   5951. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 05:49 PM (#5476996)
Reading about Monk puts me in mind of Zach LaVine, personally.

e: Yeah Dragic is a pretty good comp.
   5952. billyshears Posted: June 15, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5476999)
I have to head out for the night, so here is Dallas’s pick preferences:

I had a very difficult time deciding between Smith and Monk. Both are great options at this point in the draft and I went back and forth on the choice a few times (and depending on what the Knicks do, I may not get to make that choice). Ultimately, my choice was determined by two philosophical views of the modern NBA, neither of which is truly revolutionary: (i) shooting is paramount and (ii) as offensives further emphasize spacing and ball movement, a true ball dominant point guard will become less necessary than having five guys who can all shoot and pass. As such, Dallas’s preference is as follows:

1. Malik Monk
2. Dennis Smith
   5953. JC in DC Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:01 PM (#5477004)
I guess I don't see Monk as a one (pg), and I think that's a huge need for NY, and that Smith or FN make more sense, and show more promise, at those spots. If Monk is not a one, he's small for a two, especially defensively. He's got great range, and perhaps there's some Bradley Beal there, but I like the promise of both Smith and FN more, especially at the one.

So, why not Smith, then? The two givens, in my opinion, are the bodies of these guys: Smith is a phenomenal athlete, with good height and great strength. He displayed that body to its full potential against Duke and in a few other games. From the reports (few indeed) I've read on FN, he consistently displays his body's advantages on the defensive side of the ball, and in using his height to pass. But I deeply worry about Smith. He may be the next Westbrook, and I may have missed on that. But I bet on the defensive side of the ball with FN, trust his passing to improve (it's good, but he's prone to some turnovers), and think his shot will stay steady.

Thus, with the 8th pick in the draft, the NYK add to their international-flavored roster, and choose Frank Ntilikina, out of Brussels, Belgium and Strasbourg (pref. Strasburg), France.
   5954. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:06 PM (#5477006)
smileyy, I wasn't expecting it but I'm afraid the two guys I wanted went 8 and 9 (seems I'm not the only guy who is shorting Dennis Smith stock) so I regret I have to decline to trade up. So you're on the clock. :)

Anyone who sits 14-25 or so and is thinking about moving up, I will entertain offers to move down from 13.
   5955. aberg Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:10 PM (#5477009)
1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smiley) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Sacramento (smiley)
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)
13. Denver (PASTE)
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse)
15. Portland (JJ)
16. Chicago (Dandy)
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Indiana (King Mekong)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Philadelphia (via Toronto) (STIGGLES)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smiley)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Chicago (Dandy)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Indiana (King Mekong)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)
   5956. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:27 PM (#5477014)
Re: Monk

He reminds me of Delk. YMMV.

Paste what would you want with the 17 for 13?

Edit to add:

I suppose the Delk comp is odd given that Monk has t rex arms and Delk had freakish arms but they remind me of each other on offense. Reddick might be a better comp.
   5957. tshipman Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:39 PM (#5477018)
monk's profile is pretty similar to guys like dragic, lillard, mccollum, beal, jrue holiday, (steph curry). he's a knockdown shooter, with good athleticism and combo-guard size. his upside depends on whether and how well he can create shots for himself and his teammates off the dribble.


Monk has below NBA athleticism. I think he's borderline unplayable in the NBA. His rebounds, steals and block numbers are all abysmal. Like, he has below JJ Redick athleticism and below JJ Redick size.

Lauri Markkanen is the other guy who jumps out at you as a potential bust.

Edit: I would also add that it's possible these guys usage is warping my analysis. We haven't really seen that many guys who take so very many 3p shots compared to twos. It's possible the old heuristics are no longer valid. That said, I'm waiting until that gets definitely disproved before I change my mental model.
   5958. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:43 PM (#5477025)
Sosa, I'm definitely interested in moving down a few slots (There are a couple guys right in range of my pick that I think I'm way lower on than most) but I'm struggling to come up with a match with Milwaukee on a 13/17 swap. Already holding 49 and 51 makes 48 less than alluring, and Milwaukee's roster is... so weird. It's half guys I'd be doing you a favor to take and half guys you'd be insulted if I asked for, with no apparent in between. I'm open to ideas though. And depending who goes 10 through 12 I might end up willing to move down for next to nothing (i.e. the 48).

I guess some people look at Markkanen and dream of Dirk. I look at him and see Kelly Olynyk with potential for more. That might be unkind to Olynyk/too kind to Markkanen especially as concerns defense, though. Overall I like Markkanen, would have moved up for him if I could have, and think he's a more than defensible pick at 7. There's real upside there.

edit: You guys are throwing around J.J. Redick's name like he sucks. I'd be THRILLED to get J.J. Redick with a low lottery pick. Dude's a career 41% three point shooter and led the league, on high volume, just last year. I don't get comparing Monk to Redick at all.
   5959. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: June 15, 2017 at 06:57 PM (#5477039)
I'm not quite sure what the Celtics fanbase expects. To me (and I suspect to Ainge) the level of risk of trying to build around Fultz, Brown, the Nets pick, and trades is much, much, much higher than pushing the chips in now. They made the conference finals as is. LeBron turns 33 next season and has a lot of miles on him. His cast is crumbling. Why wait? What is this "future run" I come across so often with Celtics fans? A team that made the Eastern Finals that adds say PG and BG or something of that ilk isn't good enough?
Of the past 25 NBA Champions, 24 had at least one of these nine players: LeBron James, Stephen Curry, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O’Neal, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon. All nine of those players won at least one MVP in their career and all but Garnett (9) and Curry (4+) made at least ten All NBA teams. This is not a secret.

A few years back I made the argument that Ainge’s overarching goal as Celtics’ GM is to acquire transcendent star players. With that, I posited that the acquisition of Isaiah Thomas and absolute unwillingness to spend significant salary on very good players was all part of a multi-year play to pitch Kevin Durant on Boston. This “allure of the 1% chance” theory of franchise management traces back before Durant to the decision to execute the Nets trade, acquire Ray Allen to entice KG, trade a lottery pick to align contracts for a future KG trade, and even consider tanking when he “only” had Paul Pierce.

This theory, that Ainge’s only real concern is winning the title and that drives him to take low-odds chances at the absolute best players, has done a pretty good job of predicting his actions over the years. For that reason, I am somewhat uncomfortable suggesting that The Plan right now is to sign Gordon Hayward, or even sign Hayward and trade for Jimmy Butler. Does anyone really believe that Isaiah Thomas, Gordon Hayward, Jimmy Butler, and Al Horford make up a team good enough to beat the Warriors, who may be the greatest team in NBA history?

That counterpoint comes from another recent post by Ryan Bernardoni, the statistically- and cap-fluent blogger who
doesn't see the forest for the trees.

there's no reason to pay olynyk when you have zizic; there's no reason to keep both smart and bradley when you also have fultz, thomas and rozier.
You forgot Yabusele.
   5960. tshipman Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:12 PM (#5477046)
edit: You guys are throwing around J.J. Redick's name like he sucks. I'd be THRILLED to get J.J. Redick with a low lottery pick. Dude's a career 41% three point shooter and led the league, on high volume, just last year. I don't get comparing Monk to Redick at all.


Redick's career is the 90th% of his prospect status.

Same for Olynyk.

Give me 10 of those guys as prospects and one of them becomes a Redick/Olynyk. Most of the guys with bad athleticism and good skills for college end up out of the league. The reason for that is that "good for college" skills are bad for pros. You have to improve all your skills to play at the next level, PLUS have the athleticism to keep up. It's rare for guys without elite athleticism to be successful.
   5961. Booey Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:31 PM (#5477059)
Of the past 25 NBA Champions, 24 had at least one of these nine players: LeBron James, Stephen Curry, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O’Neal, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon. All nine of those players won at least one MVP in their career and all but Garnett (9) and Curry (4+) made at least ten All NBA teams. This is not a secret.


Yep, and that trend actually continues back even further than that. Go to the beginning of the "modern era" of the NBA (1980-present), and it's 35 of 38 champions had a league MVP (add Magic, Bird, and Moses). The only 3 that didn't? All Pistons teams (1989, 1990, 2004).* Impressive that Detroit is not only the only team to do this, but that they've been able to do it 3 times.


* I suppose you could argue that Duncan was no longer a superstar for the 2014 Spurs, though, but when Kawhi wins an MVP one of these years, it will render this point moot again.
   5962. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:32 PM (#5477061)
re: Monk

I wasn't insulting Monk by comping him to Redick, as has been said in this thread in past offseasons, if you want to get an idea of just how great even scrub NBA guys are watch summer league. Many of those guys will end up getting paid to play, just not in the NBA. Making the NBA is really hard. If Monk has Redick's career that would be pretty good.

re: 5959

Again, this is a really, really, really narrow view. Kevin Durant is 28. The plan is to concede the title, for what, the next five years? Seven? Ten? It is frankly bizarre to me to state that IT3, Hayward, Butler, and Horford aren't good enough to beat maybe the greatest team of all time that happens to be in the western conference, so to hell with it, let's cross our fingers and wait for lightning to strike. Those four players may well be good enough to win the East. More than once. Was last year's Cavs team good enough to beat the Warriors? Before the series, I wouldn't have bet on it. Get to the Finals. See what happens. Durant and Curry aren't made of titanium. Although I suppose if Durant breaks his foot again he might be partially.

Here is a great and painful secret about winning NBA titles. You usually have to beat a good team along the way to win. Sometimes more than one.
   5963. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:37 PM (#5477066)
Paste, yeah, that is what I was alluding to with Oriole earlier. There isn't much there beyond the 2nd that would work, and given past history that is light to move up 4 spots. Let me know if you change your mind.
   5964. King Mekong Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:46 PM (#5477071)
I'd be interested in moving up. Sacramento want to pick up another second and a lotto protected future first that turns into a second for the privilege?

Edit and this years first of course
   5965. King Mekong Posted: June 15, 2017 at 07:48 PM (#5477072)
Also vis a vis George and rrs comment : Yeah that's where I'm at that's why the conversation would have to start at something close to what Sacramento got for boogie. I'd keep him unless it was close to that. Then I'd consider. From phillys perspective I'd need at minimum saric and one of the lotto picks. I'd consider top 1 protecting the lal pick next year and then the sacto pick becomes unprotected. Again this as a starting point.
   5966. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: June 15, 2017 at 08:05 PM (#5477084)
It is frankly bizarre to me to state that IT3, Hayward, Butler, and Horford aren't good enough to beat maybe the greatest team of all time that happens to be in the western conference, so to hell with it, let's cross our fingers and wait for lightning to strike.


I don't think that's a fair characterization of the passage I quoted, nor do I agree with it myself. The point is not "the Warriors are extremely good, so #### it, oh well"; the point is that winning championships even in the best of times takes a league MVP-level player. Paul George is very talented, but he's not THAT talented; neither is Gordon Hayward, nor Blake Griffin, nor anyone who's currently available. Even if we suppose, for the sake of argument, that Fultz's absolute ceiling is "Above-Average All-Star But Not Historically Special", there's a fair amount of history to suggest Ainge would rather cultivate the Celtics' young talent and structure contracts so as to maximize the odds of making a competitive bid should an All-NBA first team talent like Davis hit the market than to go all-in on any lesser players.

I'll stop short of endorsing this basketball worldview, but I think it's a reasonable one; and since, by all indications, it's how the Celtics brass thinks about team-building, it's worth keeping in mind when discussing what the Cs could/should do.
   5967. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 08:07 PM (#5477086)
I think it is probably true that Ainge is uninterested in giving up any assets for e.g. DeMarcus Cousins, but would probably pounce if Anthony Davis wanted out of New Orleans. There is definitely a difference between a mere star and a championship-caliber franchise cornerstone. And if you can't have a championship-caliber franchise cornerstone... well, what is the point in trading away assets when your team is already the second-best in its conference AND well positioned to remain that way for a while?

I expect the Celtics to draft Fultz, keep him, most likely sign Gordon Hayward, and let Isaiah Thomas walk after next year.

e: For similar reasons I'm not sure they've ever really gone hard after Jimmy Butler, either, rather than just poked the Bulls to see if they were going to do something stupid. It's the same concept: this year they were the 1 seed and lost to Cleveland in the playoffs. Trade a bunch of assets for Jimmy Butler, and most likely next year they... will be the 1 seed and lose to Cleveland in the playoffs.

Anthony Davis, however, may be a different story.
   5968. JC in DC Posted: June 15, 2017 at 08:46 PM (#5477112)
Who's on the clock, and how long is the clock?
   5969. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 08:53 PM (#5477117)
smileyy is on the clock (#10, SAC) and I don't know how long the clock is.

I accepted a trade from him to move up to 10 under condition that the two guys I wanted didn't go 8 and 9... but they did. So he's up, but he may have been assuming he was picking 13th.

e: I'm willing to let that trade go through just to keep the draft moving if necessary. Problem is I have no way of knowing whether HE still wants to trade down since we never confirmed it. :)
   5970. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 15, 2017 at 08:57 PM (#5477123)
Detroit will pick in the morning if they go on the clock if that's ok.

Sure no one wants to trade for the 37th RPM-ranked center? What about the 77th RPM-ranked PG? What about the player with the 2nd worst TS% among all players with 1000 minutes?
   5971. tshipman Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:00 PM (#5477127)
I don't think that's a fair characterization of the passage I quoted, nor do I agree with it myself. The point is not "the Warriors are extremely good, so #### it, oh well"; the point is that winning championships even in the best of times takes a league MVP-level player. Paul George is very talented, but he's not THAT talented; neither is Gordon Hayward, nor Blake Griffin, nor anyone who's currently available.


Blake may not be now, but in 2013-2014 he arguably was.

Paul George is the guy I don't get being in these conversations.

He's just not that good.
   5972. smileyy Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:06 PM (#5477133)
King Mekong, I'll take the deal for 18 and the second rounder. The guy I want is a reach at 10.
   5973. JC in DC Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5477143)
JJ: Interested in NY's 44th pick and the ephemera of "cash" for your 26th?
   5974. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5477145)
Just based on #5972, I'm 95% sure I know exactly who the guy smileyy wants is... and I'm not 100% sure he'll be available at 18. ;)
   5975. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5477161)
Sure no one wants to trade for the 37th RPM-ranked center? What about the 77th RPM-ranked PG? What about the player with the 2nd worst TS% among all players with 1000 minutes?
if reggie jackson's contract was 1 year shorter, i'd be all over that.

if he's available, drummond would be a great target for IND.

i'm willing to package #23 and #46 to move up to the 10-17 range, pending my guy being on the board.
   5976. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5477162)
Just based on #5972, I'm 95% sure I know exactly who the guy smileyy wants is... and I'm not 100% sure he'll be available at 18. ;)
luke kennard right? "reach" is obviously a coded shot at kennard's negative wingspan differential.
   5977. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 09:57 PM (#5477174)
re: 5966

"to hell with it" wasn't entirely fair, you are correct, that is overly reductionist. But why did Durant join the Warriors, he's one of the unicorn players without which it is very difficult to win. He went to the Warriors because they were a two time finalist. For the Celtics, I think the Finals out of the East is well within reach. Make a finals and maybe one of those unicorn type players becomes available/decides to join (Davis, whomever). Established stars have a low opinion of young players, LeBron wasted no time booting Wiggins out for an established star. I don't rate any of the players available with the Nets picks as being worthy of waiting on at the expense of taking a shot now with the hope you can attract a unicorn or failing that catch some breaks.

That's just me, I suppose it is possible that LeBron lasts until he's forty at a superhuman level, but I don't see it. He has a ton of miles on him and I've never been impressed with his supporting cast in Cleveland. The Heatles sidekicks were better and LeBron is much older. I think there is a window there if they choose to take it.
   5978. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5477188)
Is Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw still around? Haven't seem him post in quite a while, and he'll be on the clock (presumably) in the morning at #12.
   5979. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 15, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5477193)
JJ, did you lose interest in Robin Lopez based on the 2 years left on his contract, or are you still interested if you can get out of paying Meyers Leonard his remaining 3 years, $32 million?

Bobby Portis can be had for a top-20 pick.
   5980. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 15, 2017 at 10:29 PM (#5477203)
If JJ wants out of Leonard's contract he might want to give me a call. I've got an eye on all those first round picks of Portland's.

Crabbe, on the other hand, there ain't enough non-lottery picks in the world, man.
   5981. King Mekong Posted: June 15, 2017 at 10:48 PM (#5477211)
Ok cool. Done. I'm on mobile so would someone mind writing it up for us? I will draft Dennis smith jr.
   5982. J. Sosa Posted: June 15, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5477214)
1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)
13. Denver (PASTE)
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse)
15. Portland (JJ)
16. Chicago (Dandy)
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Philadelphia (via Toronto) (STIGGLES)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Chicago (Dandy)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)
   5983. stevegamer Posted: June 15, 2017 at 11:02 PM (#5477216)
Sure no one wants to trade for the 37th RPM-ranked center? What about the 77th RPM-ranked PG? What about the player with the 2nd worst TS% among all players with 1000 minutes?


New Orleans has no interest in Drummond, but the other two, maybe. Unsure what you'd want, but New Orleans has some spare bigs. I'd give you your choice of Asik or Ajinca for Johnson & Ish Smith.
   5984. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 15, 2017 at 11:28 PM (#5477226)
I like onuaku as well, STIGGLES
   5985. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:02 AM (#5477254)
I feel like there's a clear top 10 and a lot of ways to go at #11. DraftExpress had Kennard going here, and I've seen others with Justin Jackson. Both seem pretty plausible for what the Hornets will actually do, with their affinity for older players and guys from the Triangle.

But I'm going to take Donovan Mitchell, SG Louisville. He should be able to guard bigger opposing PGs that give Kemba trouble, knock down 3s, and maybe run the offense with Batum when Kemba's on the bench. I also think a small ball lineup with Kemba, Donovan, Batum, MKG and Marvin Williams would be fun.

As a Bucks fan IRL I think he'd be a perfect fit for them at 17 but seems extremely unlikely that he'll fall that far.
   5986. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:03 AM (#5477255)
1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)
13. Denver (PASTE)
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse)
15. Portland (JJ)
16. Chicago (Dandy)
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Philadelphia (via Toronto) (STIGGLES)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Chicago (Dandy)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)
   5987. Sleepless in Munich Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:13 AM (#5477263)
It is frankly bizarre to me to state that IT3, Hayward, Butler, and Horford aren't good enough to beat maybe the greatest team of all time that happens to be in the western conference, so to hell with it, let's cross our fingers and wait for lightning to strike. Those four players may well be good enough to win the East. More than once.

But not more than twice. Thomas' contract runs until 2018, Butler can opt out in 2019. Boston won't be able to carry all four on max contracts for 2019-20, unless ownership is willing to foot a huge tax bill.

But why did Durant join the Warriors, he's one of the unicorn players without which it is very difficult to win. He went to the Warriors because they were a two time finalist. For the Celtics, I think the Finals out of the East is well within reach. Make a finals and maybe one of those unicorn type players becomes available/decides to join (Davis, whomever).

Teams need cap space to sign free agents who want to join. The Warriors had enough cap space to sign Durant to a max contract and keep their other stars, because the others were far away from max contracts. Due to the cap structure, teams can have no more than two (near) max players and enough cap room to fit in another max contract.


There are three ways to get these transcendent players - draft, trade and free agency. Boston currently is the only team in the league to have a shot via all three ways. They have the No. 1 pick, assets to trade for anybody plus a good team with the chance to create max cap room without blowing up the core of the team. And they got there while putting an exciting and successful product on the field. Yet somehow not changing course and paying a lot for and committing to a team build around George or Butler (with a combined one 3rd All-NBA-team) is a big mistake for a lot of people.
   5988. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 06:36 AM (#5477266)
JJ, did you lose interest in Robin Lopez based on the 2 years left on his contract, or are you still interested if you can get out of paying Meyers Leonard his remaining 3 years, $32 million?

I need to shed some per annum salary to move the picks, so I'd be interested in something like Lopez for Crabbe, Davis and the 15. I can also take Rondo and waive him for you if that's your plan.

MHS, How about Smart for Vonleh and the 26?
   5989. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 16, 2017 at 08:31 AM (#5477279)
Pistons will take Zach Collins. I just can't pass up those numbers.

New Orleans has no interest in Drummond, but the other two, maybe. Unsure what you'd want, but New Orleans has some spare bigs. I'd give you your choice of Asik or Ajinca for Johnson & Ish Smith.


Here's my long Pistons rant. Unfortunately Ish wasn't the 77th ranked PG. That would be highly-paid Reggie Jackson.

I think I'd be ready to semi-blow it up if I were Detroit. They had a nice year in 15-16, but that was supposed to be the beginning of an improving young group. They took such a far step back this year that even getting back to that point feels like a stretch now. I don't want them locked into Drummond and Jackson any more, and I doubt they have any options. But if they could get rid of the pair of them without taking back poison-pills or sending out draft picks, I'd do it. Another year like the last one and there'd surely be no chance to dump them. Then I'd make the best of what's left (including paying KCP more than he's worth) and just see what happens. They flat-stunk with Andre and Reggie on the floor last year, so I would hope for addition by subtraction. I can't tell if this is me being short-sighted or not. We'll see what happens.

New arena and second-to-last year for Stan Van so I can't imagine them completely tanking, and also can't imagine them getting value back for anyone on the roster, so I think they'll just run it back and hope Reggie gets healthy. It'll probably be a disaster.

   5990. MHS Posted: June 16, 2017 at 08:40 AM (#5477281)
MHS, How about Smart for Vonleh and the 26?


This is a hard one - Ainge would say no, since it's not a slam dunk.

This is a situation where being Mock, and not real is very unfortunate just because of the incomplete information we have.

I love Smart as a player, and think he is a very good rotation piece, but his statistical stagnation after a great rookie season has me concerned about his ability to turn into a championship player. If I had an idea of what extension talks were like, and if it seemed like if he basically continued along his current path he would resign for reasonable reserve money, I think I'd keep him. But if it seemed like he was going to take advantage of his RFA status and wanted to maximize his value, I'd probably lean towards trying to find a deal.

RFA status scare the crap out of me for these good players, with potential, who haven't realized it yet - since it only takes one guy to like their potential more than you for you lose the guy. Which was a major reason I didn't want any part of Noel last year.

The other issue, is that moving Smart for NV doesn't get me to max cap space - I'd be a couple million short.

Just spit balling but would you do:

JJ would you do:
Bradley 53+55
for
Vonleh and 20 and swap rights next year?


   5991. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 08:52 AM (#5477286)
I'm not sure that would work under the cap. Would you still have max space if you took on Ezeli and his million guaranteed. I'd do Bradley and 37 for 20, Vonleh, Ezeli and swap rights.
   5992. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 08:58 AM (#5477290)
Denver takes Luke Kennard, guard, Duke. I'll write more later but in the meantime the draft can march on.
   5993. MHS Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5477307)
Only 1mm of Ezeli's 7mm is GTD? That would fit.

I assumed you'd rather have Bradley than Smart is that true?

I'd rather keep 37 - I feel like I need to net a good pick, rather trading up - which maybe a weird distinction. I can give you a future 2nd also if that matters to you.
   5994. MHS Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:16 AM (#5477310)
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State


I think this is by far the best value in the draft, and the not sure if it is possible for their to be a better pick. I have Smith #3 on my person big board.
   5995. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:19 AM (#5477312)
I need to shed some per annum salary to move the picks, so I'd be interested in something like Lopez for Crabbe, Davis and the 15. I can also take Rondo and waive him for you if that's your plan.

I'll do it if we replace Davis with Aminu, so Lopez and Rondo (waived) for Crabbe, Aminu, and 15.
   5996. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:24 AM (#5477314)
I don't want them locked into Drummond and Jackson any more, and I doubt they have any options. But if they could get rid of the pair of them without taking back poison-pills or sending out draft picks, I'd do it. Another year like the last one and there'd surely be no chance to dump them. Then I'd make the best of what's left (including paying KCP more than he's worth) and just see what happens. They flat-stunk with Andre and Reggie on the floor last year, so I would hope for addition by subtraction. I can't tell if this is me being short-sighted or not.

I don't think you're being short-sighted; Drummond just isn't any good. He doesn't block shots, isn't mobile, and is one of the worst free throw shooters in league history, rendering him unplayable close and late. He should be someone's 3rd or 4th big man but is instead getting paid like a franchise player. It's a disaster for Detroit, and I'm not sure they can do anything about it other than hoping he gets a lot better at a lot of things.
   5997. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:27 AM (#5477317)
They flat-stunk with Andre and Reggie on the floor last year, so I would hope for addition by subtraction.


Do you think Jackson had any lingering issues from his injury?
   5998. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5477321)
Just out of curiosity, if Jabari were healthy, what is the consensus on what he'd bring in a trade?
   5999. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5477322)
flip
   6000. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5477323)
flip
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