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Wednesday, March 01, 2017

OT - March 2017 NBA thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of bothered to submit a monthly thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  I dunno, baseball, maybe?  Probably politics, but maybe some baseball, too.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: March 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM | 7430 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   6001. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5477325)
1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed) Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse)
15. Portland (JJ)
16. Chicago (Dandy)
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Philadelphia (via Toronto) (STIGGLES)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Chicago (Dandy)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)
   6002. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5477341)
I think this is by far the best value in the draft, and the not sure if it is possible for their to be a better pick. I have Smith #3 on my person big board.


This is fascinating to me because I wouldn't have picked Smith if he were there at #13. I wouldn't have picked him at 20.

The athleticism is obvious. But Smith doesn't pass, frequently dribbles the ball flat, and disengages completely when he's away from the ball It's so easy to fall in love with doublepluselite athleticism, and tell yourself "We can teach him to play team basketball!" But you can't. If a guy fundamentally does not think of basketball as a team sport, it's ingrained deeply in him and it's not a malleable part of his personality, as the Wolves are learning the hard way with Wiggins.

If your team is going nowhere--if you're Detroit, perhaps, or Sacramento--then yeah, it's not a bad option to draft Smith and let the fans enjoy watching him play isoball and challenge for scoring titles. If he pans out he might even lead you to 45 wins. But he is never going to stop loafing whenever he's not on the ball, on offense or defense, and no coach has ever lived that is going to persuade him otherwise. And worse, when a team's best guy plays that way, it sets the example for everyone else.

   6003. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5477345)
On Luke Kennard: he's not the ideal fit for Denver, whose glaring needs are a ball handling guard and defense and Kennard provides neither (I really wanted Ntilikina for this team, but our pick just wasn't high enough). But Kennard is the best player on the board and I'm very confident he's going to be an NBA starter. He'll never not be bad at on ball defense, but I think he has lots of potential to be an elite shooter, and he's both high IQ and high effort--he is going to be wonderful at weaving through screens to get open, I think, and he is going to play team defense respectably well.

Plus, a legit three point shooting assassin would be such a fun toy for Jokic to play with.

John Collins was the next guy on my board, for similar reasons: He has great footwork, a great motor and is a smart guy. He needs to develop but I like his chances to do so.
   6004. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5477362)
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) --- Jarret Allen C Texas.

I was torn between Allen and John Collins, but I admit I love the wingspan Allen has and that was the tie breaker for me.
   6005. PJ Martinez Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5477367)
he's not the ideal fit for Denver, whose glaring needs are a ball handling guard

I haven't watched Denver much; I figured Murray was that guy?
   6006. Quaker Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5477370)
There may have been lottery protections on our imaginary trade last year, but if the Spurs had had Charlotte's pick, we would have taken Zach Collins @ 11.
   6007. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:19 AM (#5477373)
Should we add a trade section at the top?
   6008. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5477380)
MHS - Yeah Smith was #4 on Pelton's blended projections which seemed like pretty good value and worth trading what is probably going to be 2 second round picks for the privilege of moving up (I think there's a decent chance the Pacers trade George).

edit: plus the pacers shouldn't resign Teague and even if they do they shouldn't do it for more than 3 years
   6009. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5477389)
Smith is the type of player that could really burn a team. Based purely on the eye test, I did not like how he played on State at all. But it was a bad situation, maybe he learns with more stability, etc.I was surprised he was still as highly regarded as he was after the season.

Westbrook always looks like he's been shot out of a cannon with everything he does, Smith has a good body but he's not Westbrook and I didn't see anything close to Westbrook's fire from him either. I think he will be something in between Mudiay and Wesbrook.

In other words, drafting is hard and often makes one look stupid and I have no idea. Based solely on what I've seen, I'm not bullish on him.

edit to clarify: But I'm not as negative about him as Paste. At 10 if you are swinging for the fences you could do a lot worse, especially for the price Mekong paid.
   6010. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5477403)
Part of the thing about Smith is his injury isn't that far in the past and the evidence I've read suggests that young guys are more likely to recover their explosiveness if the ACL happens at a young age. Would definitely watch his leg numbers/stability a lot if I was the Pacers and drafted him to make sure he doesn't reinjure (as sure as you can be anyway)
   6011. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5477419)
I need to shed some per annum salary to move the picks, so I'd be interested in something like Lopez for Crabbe, Davis and the 15. I can also take Rondo and waive him for you if that's your plan.

I'll do it if we replace Davis with Aminu, so Lopez and Rondo (waived) for Crabbe, Aminu, and 15.

JJ, I'm actually fine with the deal you proposed: Lopez and Rondo (waived) for Crabbe, Davis, and 15. Let me know if it's confirmed and then I'll be on the clock.

STIGGLES, presuming that trade goes through, would you do #23 and Richaun Holmes for #16 and Ed Davis?
   6012. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5477428)
Paul George is the guy I don't get being in these conversations.

He's just not that good.

It might be hard to sneak in real world talk amidst the mock draft (not complaining, for the record), but any takers on this from tship? I'm... not sure I disagree? Or rather, he's a player you want, and if you have him (Pacers) or can sign him as an FA, you do that all day every day. But do you give up what it takes to trade for him?

On the other hand, until Butler's break out this year (and he's 8ish months older than George), they were pretty similar, except George was and still is a much better shooter. The breaking point seems to be George's defensive decline post-injury. If he's no longer an elite defender, then he's not worth what it would take to get him, I don't think.
   6013. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5477448)
I think George is pretty safely a top 20 to 25 player. He appears to have that next gear in the playoffs that superstar adjacent players have. He can also shoot 3pters at a pretty good clip and can be a wrecker on defense at times (though not at the peaks of Leonard or James). I suppose it depends on if you think this year was an aberration or not, but if you think this is where he's likely to level out for the next 4 or 5 years that's a pretty good second banana. Just as a for example I'd easily trade 3 unprotected firsts with 2 swap rights if you think he's going to resign as the spurs.
   6014. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5477454)
STIGGLES, presuming that trade goes through, would you do #23 and Richaun Holmes for #16 and Ed Davis?

damn, i love ed davis, but i can't make that swap.

#23 and #46 are still on the table as a standing offer, pending my target being available.

   6015. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5477463)
George may or may not have been mailing it in a bit. I don't think he has been happy for a good while about several things. Like Mekong says, his skill set makes him a really nice second or third banana.

Acquiring him would not be without risk, but if he's happy and would be part of a contender, I think he is well worth acquiring. Assuming the medicals check out.
   6016. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5477468)
damn, i love ed davis, but i can't make that swap.

Any tweaks that would make it work? Maybe #16, #38 and Davis for #23 and Holmes?
   6017. spivey Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5477474)
I agree with 6013. George has been huge in the playoffs, and has both good defensive skill and the ability to score at a pretty high volume and solid efficiency regardless of defense. He's not a top 5 player. I think the top 10 are probably:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Chris Paul
6. Draymond
7. Jimmy Butler
8. Westbrook
9. Gobert
10. Harden

Order is rough and doesn't really matter. After that you get Jokic, Lowry, Giannis, Anthony Davis, Conley, Marc Gasol, Hayward, Lillard, Blake Griffin, Millsap, Love, Kemba Walker. I think George fits in pretty favorably among that group. Some of those guys are probably better when healthy, or better today, or will probably be better in 3-4 years. But George has a nice mix of all that. Current value, future value, and playoffs value.
   6018. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5477484)
I think George is pretty safely a top 20 to 25 player. He appears to have that next gear in the playoffs that superstar adjacent players have. He can also shoot 3pters at a pretty good clip and can be a wrecker on defense at times (though not at the peaks of Leonard or James). I suppose it depends on if you think this year was an aberration or not, but if you think this is where he's likely to level out for the next 4 or 5 years that's a pretty good second banana. Just as a for example I'd easily trade 3 unprotected firsts with 2 swap rights if you think he's going to resign as the spurs.


i think 2 things kind of get lost about george's career path:
1: he's competitive against lebron 1 on 1, but he doesn't dominate matchups against lesser players.
2: that gruesome knee injury took a huge bite out of his defensive value, and it likely retarded his offensive development.
   6019. spivey Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5477494)
i think 2 things kind of get lost about george's career path:
1: he's competitive against lebron 1 on 1, but he doesn't dominate matchups against lesser players.
2: that gruesome knee injury took a huge bite out of his defensive value, and it likely retarded his offensive development.


I dunno, 2 years ago he was matched up 1 on 1 with Derozan in the first round of the playoffs (and some Carroll, but from what I remember he cross matched Derozan a lot) and absolutely dominated that matchup on both sides of the court. I do think it's fair to say he doesn't put up the numbers in the regular season the way I'd like to see. I agree that post-injury his defense went from fringe all-defense level to just solid.
   6020. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5477497)
Any tweaks that would make it work? Maybe #16, #38 and Davis for #23 and Holmes?

if my guy is there at #16, i think i'd do that, yeah.
   6021. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5477503)
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Chris Paul
6. Draymond
7. Jimmy Butler
8. Westbrook
9. Gobert
10. Harden

I might be an outlier on this but I'm not putting Butler in the top 10 after just one year. Until this season I think George would have been unanimously held in higher regard.
   6022. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5477505)
2: that gruesome knee injury took a huge bite out of his defensive value, and it likely retarded his offensive development.

I think this is basically the only question. We know he can be an elite scorer, but if he's not that level of defender anymore, he's nowhere near being an All NBA player.
   6023. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5477511)
I agree, I'd put Giannis at the back end and take out butler and move up Harden.
   6024. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5477512)

JJ, I'm actually fine with the deal you proposed: Lopez and Rondo (waived) for Crabbe, Davis, and 15. Let me know if it's confirmed and then I'll be on the clock.
Confirmed. You're on the clock.
   6025. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5477513)
NBA rank is helpful for determining general consensus on a ordinal ranking -> link to espn here
   6026. spivey Posted: June 16, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5477514)
I might be an outlier on this but I'm not putting Butler in the top 10 after just one year. Until this season I think George would have been unanimously held in higher regard.

This year happened though. Also, before this year I think Butler was still a top 20 guy. The last couple of years Butler has shown great growth in being able to get his own points, rather than relying on others to set him up. He gets to the line a *ton*. And he has the Paul George pre-injury defense. I think Giannis is close, but I think if I had to win a game today, I'd take Butler. But yeah, I'd take Giannis over George, though George can shoot and that's really nice.
   6027. PJ Martinez Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5477515)
I found the list in 6017 (and the set of names after it) pretty idiosyncratic after the top five.
   6028. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5477520)
Does anyone have interest in trading for More Harkless? Brooklyn or Phoenix maybe.
   6029. nick swisher hygiene Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5477522)
6003--you think MUCH more highly of his defensive effort level than the Duke fans I know....
   6030. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5477524)
Donovan Mitchell was the guy I was eyeing when I was trying to trade down. I'm not surprised he went a little earlier here than a lot of the other mocks have him going. He is a really good defender with super long arms and great foot speed. I think he has the chance to become one of those defensive stoppers who starts even if his offensive game doesn't develop. He probably doesn't do much useful in an NBA offense yet, but if he can learn to be a very good cutter or improve his 3point shooting a little, he becomes a very good supporting player.
   6031. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5477531)
With the 15th pick, the Chicago Bulls select Jordan Bell, F Oregon.

I decided to take a chance on swapping Robin Lopez's rim protection for Allen Crabbe's shooting in the knowledge that I'd be adding Bell to keep the team D stout. I see Bell as a potentially elite and versatile defender, with more offensive skill than he's typically given credit for. I think many scouts and front offices are skeptical of Jordan Bell’s pro potential because they view him as an undersized PF/C, standing 6’9″ with an sub-7’ wingspan and 8’8.5” standing reach. Despite Bell’s outstanding Tournament performance overall, it’s easy to focus on the negative—the enduring memory of him failing to box out UNC’s massive front line with a trip to the NCAA Championship Game hanging in the balance.

But rather than seeing Bell as a smallish Power Forward or Center, why not think of him as a powerful Small Forward? In my mind your position is defined by who you can defend, and in that respect, I’d consider Bell less a 4/5 and more a 3/4/5, or maybe a 3/4/2/5, depending on the matchups. I wouldn’t want him chasing a shooter around screens all night or battling a legit low post presence, but otherwise his combination of quick feet, quick hands, upper-body strength, explosiveness, timing as a shot-blocker, and uber-competitiveness allows him to frustrate just about any opposing player. He’d essentially be a perfect complement to the archetypal stretch-4-with-underwhelming-defense, taking on the tougher assignment at Forward each night.

I wrote a lot more on Bell here.

STIGGLES, let me know if we have a deal for #16.
   6032. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5477535)
STIGGLES, let me know if we have a deal for #16.
yeah, let's do it.

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes


with the #16 pick, the sixers select justin jackson, SF, north carolina


i think MIL/sosa at #17 is on the clock.
   6033. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5477538)
Does anyone have interest in trading for More Harkless? Brooklyn or Phoenix maybe.

I'll listen (for Brooklyn).
   6034. MHS Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5477541)
Why I like Smith so much.

Great handle.

Can get to the rim and the line.

Can shoot from distance on a pull up.

Those three things are in my mind the most important attributes for a primary initiator, which is in my mind the most important role in the modern NBA - if you can do those things you're at least a lesser star. Their seems to be RELATIVLY little risk (always risk in translation) that those things will translate.

Their are other things he does well, and their things he doesn't do well - things he does poorly. No doubt about it - if their wasn't he would be a top 1 or 2 pick.

I put a tremendous amount of weight on getting potential stars. Besides, Ball, Fultz, I think Smith or maybe Tatum are the most likely stars. I like Smith a touch more than Tatum, but go back and forth because I think his games plays better if he doesn't end up a star.

   6035. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5477544)
1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed) Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

Trades:

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

POR: Lopez and Rondo (waived)
CHI: Crabbe, Davis, and #15

SAC: #18 #47 2018 lotto protected that turns into a 2nd if not conveyed.
IND: #10
   6036. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5477548)
Does anyone have interest in trading for More Harkless? Brooklyn or Phoenix maybe.
...
I'll listen (for Brooklyn).

Honestly I'd probably just absorb him into space for picks. Let me know what you had in mind.
   6037. MHS Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5477549)
Jordan Bell, F Oregon.


I really like Bell, he would have been on the list of considerations if I could have added a pick in the 20's.
   6038. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5477550)
sixers current mock depth chart:
G: jerryd bayless, tj mcconnell
W: josh jackson, robert covington, demarre carroll, dario saric, timothe luwawu, justin jackson, furkan korkmaz, justin anderson
B: joel embiid, ed davis, jahlil okafor
all of the above: ben simmons

picks left: #38, #39, #46


my strategy here is to load up on wings in preparation for a FA signing at PG and a blockbuster trade in the next 12-18 months. both josh and justin jackson have high BBIQ, with size, athleticism and defensive instincts. they both move well off the ball and keep the ball moving within an offense. pairing them up with veteran defenders like covington and carroll should let them ease into defensive roles and having secondary creators like saric and simmons allows them ease into their natural offensive roles.
   6039. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:32 PM (#5477551)
Hey everyone double check what I posted above and let me know if I need to make any changes. I still have edit rights
   6040. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5477553)
You should just rename the 76ers in that scenario the Jackson 5
   6041. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5477554)
Hey everyone double check what I posted above and let me know if I need to make any changes. I still have edit rights
there's also this one:

TOR: gerald henderson, nik stauskas, #36, #50
PHI: demarre carroll, #23
   6042. Booey Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5477557)
NBA rank is helpful for determining general consensus on a ordinal ranking


That link is from before the 2017 season, though, so some names are pretty far off from where we'd rank them today. Drummond is at #20, for example. Gobert is at #37, one spot behind Steven Adams.

I don't think they've done a ranking for 2018 yet.
   6043. J. Sosa Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5477567)
I was looking at two guys, one if I could trade up and one if I stayed put. Mitchell was the guy I wanted if I was able to move up. He does a lot of things I think that would make for a good support player in the NBA, and he had to handle the ball for a bit last season for the Cards. He isn't a primary ball handler, but I think he can be a secondary ball handler. Does many things well. A more athletic Brogdon. I would really like to see those two guys play with Giannis in real life. As was mentioned earlier, guard was a need for the Bucks. They gave a lot of minutes to Terry and the decision to retain Snell is a difficult one. I think the Bucks have two glaring needs, one was a guard, and one was a big that can shoot. It was really painful watching them on offense much of the time last year. They desperately need spacing. There were times I was convinced Henson was trying to tackle the ball handler on offense, he became one of my least favorite players in the league by the end of the season.

With the #17 pick the Bucks take Tyler Lydon.

I think he is one of the more underrated guys in the various mock drafts. Not because I think he is going to be some kind of superstar, but because I think he has skills that translate and is one of the better bets to develop into a credible stretch rotation forward. Provided he hires a nutritionist.

tshipman stole a little of my thunder earlier talking about Markkanen, I was going to talk about that a bit. Compare Markkanen's age 19 season to Lydon's age 19 season. From what I can recall, I think tshipman and I frequently agree on the way we look at prospects. I don't drill down into the stats nearly as much as he does, but there are a few blunt instrument basic numbers I like to go along with the eye test. When you consider Markkanen's athleticism metrics, it scares me off of him as a prospect, especially given that I think Arizona's defensive scheme helped mitigate his defensive shortcomings. Lydon was not as prolific a scorer and was not as efficient, but he did shoot threes, he did shoot them well, and his athleticism metrics are much better. He also shot free throws well (as did Markkanen) which is a big thing for me, it is encouraging for future shooting development. Add that into the eye test, Lydon has a good release which is encouraging that it might translate to NBA range and he also passes the eye test from an athletic standpoint. According to a lot of mocks, Lydon is a significant reach, but I'm reasonably confident he can stick as a stretch forward and I like him as a prospect.

Typed this in a hurry during a lull at work, sorry for any incoherence.
   6044. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5477569)
If anyone picking in the near future needs a guard and wants to try figuring Mudiay out, I'd be willing to move him and a 2nd for a pick in this range.
   6045. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5477570)
ok catching up. Remember to repost with the most up to date information before/during when you make your pick

1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed) Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa) Tyler Lydon, SF Syracuse
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

Trades:

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

POR: Lopez and Rondo (waived)
CHI: Crabbe, Davis, and #15

SAC: #18 #47 2018 lotto protected that turns into a 2nd if not conveyed.
IND: #10

TOR: gerald henderson, nik stauskas, #36, #50
PHI: demarre carroll, #23

   6046. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5477577)
smileyy do I have any assets you'd be interested in for #18? The guy I was originally targeting for 18 is available.
   6047. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5477584)
I was looking for an updated consensus of top players that was done more recently than the ESPN NBA rank. I came across a projection of the top players for 2018 that was done in 2014. Kind of fun to see how they saw things playing out. Their top 10:

1. Durant
2. Davis
3. Kyrie
4. Westbrook
5. Lebron
6. Harden
7. Rose
8. Blake
9. Love
10. Steph

The evaluation on Kyrie appears to have just been a miss.

Davis has not developed quite as well as anticipated. You can debate about how much of that is him vs. the team/coaching.

Lebron has eroded less than anticipated. I think we're all aware of that anyway.

Rose suffered due to injuries a ton. Love has not totally fit in Cleveland and had his own health concerns.

They notably whiffed on Kawhi, who was 16 and has developed much more than anyone expected. They didn't try to rank incoming players, so no Towns or Porzingis.

Link
   6048. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5477586)
The best thing I can say about Lonzo Ball is that when he touches the ball, the offense ends up in a better place when it leaves his hand. If he’s shooting the ball, it is almost always a high-efficiency look from three or at the rim. His 67 percent true shooting mark is simply unheard of for a guard. If he’s passing the ball, he’s moving it to the right player, in the right spot.

link
   6049. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5477589)
They notably whiffed on Kawhi, who was 16 and has developed much more than anyone expected.

I read that as age 16, and was like, geeeeeeez aberg, a little harsh man.
   6050. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5477592)
JJ: did you want to try a Harkless swap? You're on the clock relatively soon...
   6051. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5477602)
Is Kawakami legit? From this:
Iguodala will likely sign a multi-year extension with the Warriors worth somewhere between $8M to $12M per year.

I would think that is well, well below his market value. Which isn't to say it won't happen- that group of players clearly wants to run it back- but I'm just wondering if this is A. believable reporting or B. poorly informed speculation.
   6052. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:47 PM (#5477610)
Jmurph, how about Harkless into capspace for the 27 and 57?
   6053. smileyy Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5477611)
[6046] Sorry, the guy I want is available too.

With the 18th pick, the Kings select Bam Adebayo, Kentucky (do you see what I'm doing here?) I like his reach, and WCS and Skal could use another backup. I'm not enamored of any of the SG/SF that I'm seeing.

That puts Atlanta and Laser Man on the clock.

1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed) Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa) Tyler Lydon, SF Syracuse
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy) Bam Adebayo, Kentucky
19. Atlanta (Laser Man)
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

Trades:

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

POR: Lopez and Rondo (waived)
CHI: Crabbe, Davis, and #15

SAC: #18 #47 2018 lotto protected that turns into a 2nd if not conveyed.
IND: #10

TOR: gerald henderson, nik stauskas, #36, #50
PHI: demarre carroll, #23
   6054. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5477613)
5 yrs 60 million doesn't seem that far off his market value, like could he get 2/40? 538 said before this year he'd be worth 31 over 5 and his BPM was much better than they predicted...
   6055. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5477614)
LaserMan any interest in Thad Young as Millsap leaving insurance for #19?
   6056. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5477621)
Jmurph, how about Harkless into capspace for the 27 and 57?

Oh man, am I totally misreading the market or is Brooklyn doing Portland a bit of a favor in taking back Harkless's contract (not that it's terrible by any means)? I think I'd need something in return.

What about:
POR: 22, 57
BKY: Harkless, 26

(It's totally possible I'm terrible at this.)
   6057. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5477622)
5 yrs 60 million doesn't seem that far off his market value, like could he get 2/40?

Yeah I was going to suggest something similar- I could see 12 million per for Iggy over 4-5 years, basically as his final contract. But not like 2/24 or 3/30 or something like that. Depending on space, obviously, any reasonable contender would be interested in him on 3 years, I'd think.
   6058. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5477624)
Oh, I think Harkless at least has positive (or neutral) value. If you want to take Leonard or Turner (ha) I'd give up picks for them.

I'll throw out a proposal for a three way trade:

Bro: Harkless, 26
Bos: Vonleh, Ezeli, 22
Por: Bradley, 57
   6059. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5477630)
I would consider taking Leonard for #20 if the player I want is still there.
   6060. Laser Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5477634)
The Hawks head into the 2017-18 season with Dennis Schroeder, Taurean Prince, Kent Bazemore, Dwight Howard, Tim Hardaway (RFA) and hopefully Paul Millsap (Player Option). DeAndre Bembry and Mike Dunleavy Jr. are also coming back, but Sefolosha, Humphries, Muscala, and Ilyasova are all unrestricted free agents. In my opinion, the Hawks need front court help, and shooting.

So with the 19th pick, the Atlanta Hawks take T.J. Leaf, Forward from UCLA.

Leaf is a very skilled offensive player, shooting 64% from 2 and 46% from 3s. He's also a very good passer, and can run the floor well for a big man. Defense and strength are a concern, but I think his shooting will keep him in the league for a long time. I would have taken Zach Collins or Jarrett Allen if they were available.

1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) - Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) - Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)- Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) - Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) - Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) - Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) - Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)- Tyler Lydon, SF Syracuse
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy) - Bam Adebayo, Kentucky
19. Atlanta (Laser Man) - T.J. Leaf, F UCLA
20. Portland (JJ)
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

Trades:

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

POR: Lopez and Rondo (waived)
CHI: Crabbe, Davis, and #15

SAC: #18 #47 2018 lotto protected that turns into a 2nd if not conveyed.
IND: #10

TOR: gerald henderson, nik stauskas, #36, #50
PHI: demarre carroll, #23
   6061. Laser Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:08 PM (#5477637)
LaserMan any interest in Thad Young as Millsap leaving insurance for #19?
Thanks, but not that interested in Thaddeus Young. Still hoping that Millsap will return to the Hawks at a reasonable price.
   6062. JJ1986 Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:09 PM (#5477640)
Portland takes OG Anunouny, SF, Indiana. I was looking at 2 guys in the draft I might want and Mitchell was always a pipe dream. My number 1 goal is to improve perimeter defense and OG's one guy who can really help with that (and also play some defense at the 4 which is a huge hole if Aminu misses time.)
   6063. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5477643)
crap, that's who I wanted.

edit: Any trades for Thad Young for Leonard and Anunoby and a small sweetener?
   6064. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5477649)
crap, that's who I wanted.

Ditto.
   6065. King Mekong Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5477653)
Assuming my trade request doesn't happen that leaves us at

1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) - Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) - Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)- Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) - Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) - Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) - Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) - Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)- Tyler Lydon, SF Syracuse
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy) - Bam Adebayo, Kentucky
19. Atlanta (Laser Man) - T.J. Leaf, F UCLA
20. Portland (JJ) - OG Anunoby, F Indiana
21. OKC (Thok)
22. Brooklyn (jmurph)
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy)
24. Utah (Booey)
25. Orlando (Votto)
26. Portland (JJ)
27. Brooklyn (jmurph)
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe)
29. San Antonio (Quaker)
30. Utah (Booey)

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man)
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
33. Orlando (Votto)
34. Sacramento (smileyy)
35. Orlando (Votto)
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
37. Boston (MHS)
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES)
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
40. New Orleans
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw)
42. Utah (Booey)
43. Houston (Der-K)
44. New York (NJ/JC)
45. Houston (Der-K)
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES)
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy)
48. Milwaukee (Sosa)
49. Denver (PASTE)
50. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO)
51. Denver (PASTE)
52. Washington (AROM)
53. Boston (MHS)
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic)
55. Utah (Booey)
56. Boston (MHS)
57. Brooklyn (jmurph)
58. New York (NJ/JC)
59. San Antonio (Quaker)
60. Atlanta (Laser Man)

Trades:

PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

POR: Lopez and Rondo (waived)
CHI: Crabbe, Davis, and #15

SAC: #18 #47 2018 lotto protected that turns into a 2nd if not conveyed.
IND: #10

TOR: gerald henderson, nik stauskas, #36, #50
PHI: demarre carroll, #23
   6066. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5477656)
I'm still interested in nabbing a pick anytime between now and when the guys I want are gone. I have Mudiay, 49, 51 and some cap space to offer.
   6067. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5477668)
Thok: I'm trying to find a way in the trade machine for Brooklyn to take Kanter off your hands, along with the 21st pick, but in real life you'd need to take back Lopez and Nicholson, I think? And that's too much salary.
   6068. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5477674)
PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes


Dandy, as a Bulls fan, I'm interested in your thought process for this deal. I get the Portland swap and the pick.
   6069. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5477678)
Drummond is at #20


Oh, how fun.

I'm sharing Pistons misery with you. No one cares about the Pistons, but I feel like sharing so here you go:

Pistons listed on last year's NBA Rank. Their 2016-17 Projected RPM and actual RPM:

188. Ish Smith - Projected: -1.01. Actual: 0.53.
144. Stanley Johnson - Projected: -2.42. Actual: -2.38
141. Marcus Morris - Projected: 1.48. Actual: 0.52.
123. Tobias Harris - Projected: -0.88. Actual: 0.94.
83. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - Projected: 2.50. Actual: -0.60
59. Reggie Jackson - Projected: 2.79. Actual: -3.53 (LOL)
20. Andre Drummond - Projected: 2.12. Actual: -0.25

Combining those seven players:

Projected: 4.58 - Nice young team, not going to win a championship but this is the most fun for Pistons fans in a decade.

Actual: -4.77 Josh Smith was one bad contract. Now you have a full salary cap full of bad contracts.
   6070. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:48 PM (#5477683)
123. Tobias Harris - Projected: -0.88. Actual: 0.94.

This was a fun one because man did SVG get all the praise for it, but literally who on earth cares about Tobias Harris? Still probably a good deal, and the contract is fine, but...? Congrats, you have Tobias Harris for a couple more years.
   6071. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5477692)
Dandy, as a Bulls fan, I'm interested in your thought process for this deal. I get the Portland swap and the pick.
richaun holmes is really good. he's mobile, he can defend the 5 and he can make 3s. he's only 23 and he's got two cheap years left on his contract.
crap, that's who I wanted.
i'm a fan of anunoby, but i picked justin jackson over him because i think jackson's offensive instincts and 3P range are likely to translate, whereas i'm not sure that anunoby has any NBA caliber offensive strengths.
   6072. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5477707)
i'm a fan of anunoby, but i picked justin jackson over him because i think jackson's offensive instincts and 3P range are likely to translate, whereas i'm not sure that anunoby has any NBA caliber offensive strengths.


I'm with you on Jackson. Every time I watched him, I couldn't figure out why he was generally not regarded that highly as a prospect. He seems to have moved up some since the early spring, but I like him for the reasons you said. Plus, he's so long.
   6073. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 16, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5477709)
richaun holmes is really good. he's mobile, he can defend the 5 and he can make 3s. he's only 23 and he's got two cheap years left on his contract.

I believe absolutely nothing of what you say about any Sixer player, past, present, or future.
   6074. JC in DC Posted: June 16, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5477711)
I like Jackson as well, and was trying to get back into the first round in part in case he slipped. Physically, he reminds me a lot of Matt Barnes, who despite his complete insanity, I've always liked. Jackson's probably a wee longer, and his shot may be more reliable, but Barnes has survived on his ferocity and willingness to do anything. I love players like that.
   6075. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 16, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5477712)
PHI: #16, #38, ed davis
CHI: #23, richaun holmes

Dandy, as a Bulls fan, I'm interested in your thought process for this deal. I get the Portland swap and the pick.

Of course! A few things:

(1) I like Ed Davis, but I don't like the fit. On a scale from 1 to 100 as a floor spacer, he'd rate as a 1. Davis took a grand total of 1 shot outside 10 feet last year; he took 4 the year before. Part of the rationale behind trading Lopez was opening up the court for Jimmy, and Ed Davis is a step backwards in that regard. He'd still be a very competent backup in case I couldn't flip him for someone I preferred.

(2) I'm very high on Richaun Holmes, who's 23 and under contract for 2 more ridiculously cheap years. Holmes isn't a great outside shooter, but he's good enough to keep the defense honest and burn anyone who ignores him out beyond the arc. Last year he shot 35% from 3 and 45% from 16+ feet on moderate volume. He's also a fairly active and athletic defender, much more so than Portis at least. He's certainly big and athletic enough to finish well around the rim (73% for his career). Holmes's plus/minus stats are also quite favorable. He led the Sixers by that measure as a rookie, and his negative differential last year is deceiving because he seldom played with any of the team's better players. He never shared the court with Embiid, serving as his backup, and he played more with Luwawu-Cabarrot and Stauskas than Covington. In the 500 minutes he played with Covington, the Sixers actually outscored their opponents. I'm excited to see what he can do in a better situation.

(3) After Jordan Bell (and Donovan Mitchell, who I would've taken had he still been available), the next 2 guys on my draft board are expected to go in the 25-35 range. I figured there's an excellent chance at least 1 of them falls to 23. The 38th pick isn't a big deal once you already have 2 rookies on the roster.
   6076. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5477760)
Is Kawakami legit? From this:
Iguodala will likely sign a multi-year extension with the Warriors worth somewhere between $8M to $12M per year.

I would think that is well, well below his market value. Which isn't to say it won't happen- that group of players clearly wants to run it back- but I'm just wondering if this is A. believable reporting or B. poorly informed speculation.
iguodala's lost at least a step and a half and he's gonna be 34 next year. he shot 36% from 3 this year, but i don't think that percentage would translate to any other team.

i would not touch for him at 10+MM per year.

I believe absolutely nothing of what you say about any Sixer player, past, present, or future.
matt geiger is better than bill wennington.
   6077. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5477761)
Picking for Brooklyn, 1 pick away, but I have to disappear for a few until much later tonight, at the earliest. Do I leave 2 options, depending on how Thok proceeds?
   6078. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5477773)
Alright, I'm still one pick away so I'll leave two options for Brooklyn at pick #22, depending on who is still available, in order to keep the draft moving:

1. Justin Patton, C, Creighton
2. Ike Anigbogu, C, UCLA

Someone please update accordingly after Thok makes his selection. Thanks!
   6079. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5477777)
matt geiger is better than bill wennington.

As an analyst or player? I know Geiger isn't an analyst, but he's probably better than Wennington at it.

EDIT: Wennington shaves his head now, and he definitely would have been a better player had he shaved it back then.
   6080. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5477801)
As an analyst or player? I know Geiger isn't an analyst, but he's probably better than Wennington at it.


Kerr was joking with Lowe about the 96 Bulls vs 17 Warriors debates and playfully asked who he and Wennington were supposed to guard.
   6081. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5477813)
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago

League sources tell @ZachLowe_NBA and me that the Sixers and Celtics are in serious talks on a trade involving the No. 1 overall pick.


Whammo.

Zach Lowe‏ @ZachLowe_NBA 22s23 seconds ago

In current parameters, BOS would receive several picks and no players, sources say. Have to think No. 3 would be involved.
   6082. sardonic Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:03 PM (#5477816)
iguodala's lost at least a step and a half and he's gonna be 34 next year. he shot 36% from 3 this year, but i don't think that percentage would translate to any other team.

i would not touch for him at 10+MM per year.


I agree with this. Given the Warriors are capped out anyway and have Bird Rights on Iguodala, I could see him getting more from them on a short term deal, but I don't see him as someone who would/should get a big money offer in free agency from another team. Like maybe $15M per for 2 years or $12M over 3 but I could imagine they'd want to keep their cap/payroll relatively under control for when Klay's deal is up in 2 seasons and they're facing the repeater tax. Or maybe $40M over 3 but structured as $15M/$15M/$10M or something like that. Or even $20M/$15M/$5M.

If I'm some up and coming team like the Bucks or Toronto or something, would I really want to offer more than $40M over 3 years?
   6083. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5477825)
Wow. So surely it's this year's #3, the 2018 Lakers pick... and something else?

Woj says future first, doesn't specify.
   6084. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:15 PM (#5477830)
If Jackson is the best player on Boston's board, as was suggested yesterday, this makes all the sense in the world.

I don't know nearly enough about the top prospects to make that judgement.
   6085. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5477831)
I'm sure this is old news to all of you, but I just listened to the start of Woj's recent podcast on my way home from work and realized his "Front Office Insider" was with the Nets when they traded for Pierce and Garnett. Not sure I can finish the podcast now.
   6086. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:20 PM (#5477837)
If Jackson is the best player on Boston's board, as was suggested yesterday, this makes all the sense in the world.

I don't know nearly enough about the top prospects to make that judgement.


But why would Philly do this? If Philly now knows that Boston prefers Jackson > Fultz, why would they give up assets rather than just calling Boston's bluff? If Boston drafts Jackson at 1, then Philly is guaranteed either Fultz or Ball, and Boston is basically telling Philly that they want to draft Jackson.
   6087. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:23 PM (#5477840)
League sources tell @ZachLowe_NBA and me that the Sixers and Celtics are in serious talks on a trade involving the No. 1 overall pick.


I was always kind of expecting this, since Philly desperately needs a guard and wound up with the #3 pick in a draft with two elite guards. And also since neither Fultz nor Ball projects as a generational, multi-MVP kind of player, which it's pretty clear is what Ainge lusts after. If he can move down to 3, snag an extra lottery ball for next year and still get a prospect not THAT much inferior to Fultz, yeah, I can see him doing that.

But why would Philly do this? If Philly now knows that Boston prefers Jackson > Fultz, why would they give up assets rather than just calling Boston's bluff? If Boston drafts Jackson at 1, then Philly is guaranteed either Fultz or Ball, and Boston is basically telling Philly that they want to draft Jackson.


Because
(1) They can't know that Boston actually prefers Jackson over Fultz, rather than merely thinks the gap is close enough that they prefer Jackson plus future goodies over Fultz, in which case if Boston remains at #1 they'll take Fultz, and
(2) There's a risk someone else trades up to #1 and takes Fultz.

If this rumor is true I assume the current stage is simply Ainge knows Philly really wants a guard and is seeing if they'll fork over the 2018 Lakers pick to get one.
   6088. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:23 PM (#5477841)
But why would Philly do this? If Philly now knows that Boston prefers Jackson > Fultz, why would they give up assets rather than just calling Boston's bluff? If Boston drafts Jackson at 1, then Philly is guaranteed either Fultz or Ball, and Boston is basically telling Philly that they want to draft Jackson.

Maybe Boston favors Fultz but only slightly, so they're comfortable staying at 1 and taking him, but would grab the extra draft pick and go with Jackson if that's available? I don't know, just guessing.
   6089. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:24 PM (#5477843)
Guess #2: Boston would have their own pick next year, Brooklyn's pick next year, and a future first from this deal. Making a big trade much more likely?
   6090. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5477846)
Oh lord, now there's talk LA is trying to move to 1. Is this just all BS from Ainge?
   6091. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5477848)
Ok, but even granting all of that, there's no way that the gap between Fultz and Jackson (or Fox, Tatum, whoever Philly would take at 3) is bigger than the value of a high pick next year. Even if they don't want to make that pick, they can trade it later for something much more valuable than that gap between the guys this year.
   6092. Sleepless in Munich Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5477851)
Or maybe $40M over 3 but structured as $15M/$15M/$10M or something like that. Or even $20M/$15M/$5M.

That's not possible in the NBA. With Bird rights, the salary can rise or fall only up to 7.5% per year, based on the first year. So for 3/40, you can't do more than 14.4/13.3/12.3.

If I'm some up and coming team like the Bucks or Toronto or something, would I really want to offer more than $40M over 3 years?

The answer is always Brooklyn. They are coming of disastrous years, don't have their 2018 pick, aren't an attractive team and have some cap space now and in future years. If they can get a member of the Death Lineup to choose Brooklyn over Golden State, that would be a nice PR coup, for which they are probably willing to overpay.
   6093. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:32 PM (#5477853)
But why would Philly do this? If Philly now knows that Boston prefers Jackson > Fultz, why would they give up assets rather than just calling Boston's bluff? If Boston drafts Jackson at 1, then Philly is guaranteed either Fultz or Ball, and Boston is basically telling Philly that they want to draft Jackson.
colangelo wants credit for building this team, and he's not going to get all of it if he keeps making hinkie's picks.

i wouldn't touch this deal, even if ainge wasn't on the other side of it. the gap between 1 and 4 isn't that big this year and fultz isn't a generational player, so this is a no go for me.


   6094. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5477855)
If I'm some up and coming team like the Bucks or Toronto or something, would I really want to offer more than $40M over 3 years?

I think a lot of teams would offer something like 3/45 for Iguodala.
   6095. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5477856)
Oh lord, now there's talk LA is trying to move to 1. Is this just all BS from Ainge?
wow, shockular. that's unpossible.
   6096. jmurph Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:35 PM (#5477858)
colangelo wants credit for building this team, and he's not going to get all of it if he keeps making hinkie's picks.

Or it's possible that he recognizes the need to employ more than just forwards and centers.
   6097. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:35 PM (#5477860)
I think a lot of teams would offer something like 3/45 for Iguodala.
and none of them would be better for it.

if you have the money to pay iguodala 15MM, your team is not good enough for him to make a difference.
   6098. aberg Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:36 PM (#5477861)
Twitter is now also exploding with talk of LAL and SAC trying to trade up to 1. Maybe Ainge got Philly to offer something like #3 and a super protected 1st in 2025, then floated it out that they're getting offers of "#3 and a future first" to create a bidding war.
   6099. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5477863)
Or it's possible that he recognizes the need to employ more than just forwards and centers.
there are 10 starting caliber PGs available in free agency. lowry, paul, teague, hill, jrue, mills, and so on.

even if we strike out on all 10 of them, we have mcconnell and bayless to limp us through one more season, and we can draft frank mason or some other senior PG in the second round to add another body.
   6100. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 16, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5477864)
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