Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, December 23, 2019

OT - NBA Thread 2020

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and hopefully none of the other ones posted a duplicate thread to this.

Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 23, 2019 at 04:40 PM | 1362 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off-topic

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 8 of 14 pages ‹ First  < 6 7 8 9 10 >  Last ›
   701. Booey Posted: January 26, 2020 at 06:44 PM (#5919419)
Flip
   702. Mike A Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:21 PM (#5919420)
Trae finishes a 21/10 1st half with a half-court shot. Apparently he practices those every day.

I didn't think I could see a team play worse defense than the Hawks, but the Wizards have proven me wrong. When Dominique is complaining about your defense, you know it's not good.
   703. spivey Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:40 PM (#5919427)

Helicopters are supposedly much safer than riding in cars. We tend to hear about helicopter crashes because rich/famous people ride and thus die in them.


Where'd you source this? I've found it's hard to find data on this, but the general info I've heard in my adult was that helicopters were quite dangerous, and that's tended to be the sentiment from people who I know who have been in helicopters multiple times - that they wouldn't do it regularly outside of need (ie, military).

Anyways, Slate had a ~9 year old article that seemed to show it's math best here, which showed that helicopters are significantly more dangerous than driving. Of course, helicopters are often used in very urgent/bad weather condition scenarios, which can skew data. But then I think a lot of the fatalities are likely to happen at odd hours of the day when the number of drunk drivers on the road is likely to be very high, so I think it would be difficult to get exact data on the specifics of this day, this route, with these weather and traffic conditions.
   704. Red Voodooin Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:40 PM (#5919428)
Helicopters are supposedly much safer than riding in cars. We tend to hear about helicopter crashes because rich/famous people ride and thus die in them.


This is very false. From this Salon article, "Based on hours alone, helicopters are 85 times more dangerous than driving."

And it's not just rich and famous people who die in them frequently. Helicopter crashes are the #1 cause of wildland firefighter deaths, far more than the fire itself.

Planes are safer than automobiles. Helicopters are dangerous as ####.

It's going to be interesting to find out what the circumstances of the crash were. I heard a rumor that it was very foggy.
   705. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:42 PM (#5919429)
Trae finishes a 21/10 1st half with a half-court shot
.

Trae Young
@TheTraeYoung
·
3h
...This S*** can’t be real... this the first moment I was able to meet Gianna Maria, she’s been to only 3 games this year... 2 of them were mine... She told me I was her favorite player to watch

https://twitter.com/TheTraeYoung
   706. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:45 PM (#5919430)
This is very false. From this Salon article, "Based on hours alone, helicopters are 85 times more dangerous than driving."


It depends on who you ask.

This guy says otherwise

Personally, I find the Slate case far more likely.
   707. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:51 PM (#5919432)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qSLiIQcRbtw&feature=share
Supposed video of the crash. If real its mechanical failure. And worse they knew they were done before it crashed.

Not legit on its face (well, at least that it's what it's represented to be). Shame on Meatwad.
   708. spivey Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:54 PM (#5919433)
I saw thepointsguy's website in researching this after Aunt Bea's post. He has a ####### table that shows no explanation into how he got this data. He sites some places where he got the data, but not the math he did in normalizing all of the data. Also, who the #### is thepointsguy? I mean, obviously some journalists can get stuff like this wrong, but I'm not putting any credence in a guy's whose website exists to explain the finer points of the different Marriott Bonvoy credit cards. ####, for all I know this guy is probably a shill and on the payroll of travel companies.

That's right, I'm attacking thepointsguy's credibility.
   709. SoSH U at work Posted: January 26, 2020 at 07:59 PM (#5919434)
I saw thepointsguy's website in researching this after Aunt Bea's post. He has a ####### table that shows no explanation into how he got this data.


I gave up even trying to follow his argument.
   710. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:00 PM (#5919435)
Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 26, 2009 at 10:29 PM (#3194406)
Amateur psychologist time:
LeBron is comfortable being The One. Kobe's always struggled with being The Air Apparent. Look at it this way: LeBron was on the state championship team as a freshman and was Ohio's Mr. Basketball as a sophomore. The state adored him, and he got to stay home when he came into the NBA, playing in a supportive environment in a smaller market with a last place team that had no pressure to win immediately.

Bryant, on the other hand, comes out at 17 from Philly to the most glamorous franchise in the sport, playing next to the dominant big man of the era, Shaq, on a team that had championship aspirations. Moreover, he was approx. Michael Jordan's height and size, and had the same basic skill set at a time when everyone was expecting him to be The Next Jordan. (If you remember back then, Bryant even conducted interviews in a voice that recalled Jordan's, and even used the same cliches. You expect that every teenage basketball player would emulate Jordan, but Bryant was openly mocked for it, often by Shaq. I bet that stung.)

So here you have two guys, now the planet's greatest basketballers. James was given a chance to grow into his role. It took a little time (Is he a point guard? Is he a forward? Is he a #3 or a #4? Should he bring the ball up, or should he roam?) but his talent was obvious and the team made an immediate commitment to building around and growing with him. Bryant's situation was completely different; the team was built around Shaq, and the team wanted Bryant's game to serve O'Neal's game, even when it became apparent over time that Bryant more scorer than facilitator and needed the ball in his hands to be effective. When Shaq left L.A., many people blamed Bryant for the end of the mini-dynasty.

James is, as far as I can tell, is the open, funny, loud, charming, life of the party. Bryant is, by turns, quiet, private, introspective, standoffish, and defensive. I'm sure that the situations they came into the league dealing with had a lot to do with this. I wonder if the two would be any different had their roles been reversed.
I wrote that a few weeks before Bryant led the Lakers to the fourth of five banners they'd win with him on the team. In winning those last two rings — especially with the last one a redemption series against Boston — it's tempting to think that Bryant had acquired some level of legacy security that allowed him to more comfortable in his own skin.

Really though, those rings just forced the rest of us to acknowledge him on his terms, because he never was anything other than the unrepentant gunslinger. He was a mess as a young man, and a lot of people defined him by those years and even now hold it against him. It's hard to believe he was only 23 when he and Shaq won that third ring together, still trying to be Heir Jordan on and off off the court, wanting to be loved like Shaq only to be tagged a phony. It must be hard to age in the spotlight, trying to find who you are with a million voices screaming at you about who you should be, but in his 30s he seemed to find himself. (Crazily, if you only counted his career after the post-Shaq seasons, he still ends up with over 25,000 points and two championships.) Apparently, being more himself meant being a blunt, brutally honest sonnovabich, but he also managed to age into genuine self-awareness and even a smidge of humor. He managed to make peace with his home life. Incredibly, he even managed to find a life outside of basketball.

Mostly, though, we should marvel at just how beautiful a basketball performer he was. When he had the ball, it seemed like he could do anything. If you define basketball in its purest distillation as simply putting the ball in the basket, then Kobe was just about the purest basketball player there ever was. He could score from anywhere and in any fashion, and he was bold and relentless and reckless enough to try and do just that. He was the single most physically charismatic athlete of my lifetime. He was just beautiful to watch.
   711. Howie Menckel Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:01 PM (#5919436)
fyi, TMZ seems to have a very good track record with southern California issues, with high-ranking sources in law enforcement. they are liable to make news public before appropriate, which is an issue, but I think their reliability on that front is solid.

the PGA Tour had an event in La Jolla today, and fog delayed the start of the final round this morning by about 2 hours. it was not an issue in the afternoon there, however.
   712. spivey Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:02 PM (#5919437)
Spivey's note: thepointsguy article looks to be written by an NPR journalist who writes about transportation. One interesting thing in that article is it specifically mentions that it doesn't try to account for driver hours and the miles seem to be admitted in the article as an estimate. I'm still more inclined to believe the Slate article because it does show it's math a bit more (also lines up with my general bias). Of course, Slate does look at hours of transportation vs. miles. Perhaps miles is more of a fair comparison here, since Kobe had an amount of miles he needed to travel.
   713. puck Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:21 PM (#5919439)
Kobe was an interesting guy, probably more so after his retirement as his drive to be the greatest following in the footsteps of Michael Jordan had lots of the sorts of complications LAA of Anaheim notes, things that did not lend him to being very user friendly. Jordan had basically just showed the way to be #1 was a sort of sociopathy.

But all the stuff Kobe was up to after retirement showed so much more to him--guiding his daughters, leading him to support the WNBA and the USWNT, the documentary, his worldliness (growing up in Italy, etc.) leading to stuff like trash talking Doncic in Slovenian--it seemed to be pointing at an interesting post-playing career.

Now we won't see it.
   714. puck Posted: January 26, 2020 at 09:04 PM (#5919446)
Non-Kobe news: Zion is now 6 for 16 in free throws?
   715. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: January 26, 2020 at 09:24 PM (#5919448)
I like the discussion of Kobe here. Every other community I'm a part of has gone as follows:

Person 1 - Kobe Bryant died in a helicopter crash. RIP

Person 2 - what the hell? Really? don't joke

Person 3 - What the ####? Really? Yeah, looks real. RIP (link)

Person 4 - Kobe Bryant was a rapist and I will NOT wait until a "better time" to point it out, in fact this is the BEST time to point it out and I just wanted to make sure to point it out

Person 5 - Also it looks like some other people died in the crash. It's not clear who

Person 4 - Ok I feel bad for those other people, that's tragic

end of discussion, total time 90 seconds
   716. Oriole Tragic didn't have the teams Lebron had Posted: January 26, 2020 at 09:33 PM (#5919451)

Where is rr when we need him the most?
   717. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 26, 2020 at 09:35 PM (#5919452)

Non-Kobe news: Zion is now 6 for 16 in free throws?

RJ Barrett was 11 for his first 27 from the line.* Not sure what Coach K was teaching those kids at Duke :)

* Barrett's monthly FT%s have been 40.7% - 55.6% - 63.6% - 74.0%. Seems like he figured it out. I'm sure Zion will, too.
   718. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:03 PM (#5919454)
Where is rr when we need him the most?
Hunting down Tship for murder reasons.
   719. Fancy Crazy Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:13 PM (#5919455)
I like the discussion of Kobe here. Every other community I'm a part of has gone as follows:

Person 1 - Kobe Bryant died in a helicopter crash. RIP

Person 2 - what the hell? Really? don't joke

Person 3 - What the ####? Really? Yeah, looks real. RIP (link)

Person 4 - Kobe Bryant was a rapist and I will NOT wait until a "better time" to point it out, in fact this is the BEST time to point it out and I just wanted to make sure to point it out

Person 5 - Also it looks like some other people died in the crash. It's not clear who

Person 4 - Ok I feel bad for those other people, that's tragic

end of discussion, total time 90 seconds

Well thank you for pointing out Kobe was a rapist, so I don't have to. ;)
   720. phredbird Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:15 PM (#5919456)

news sources now reporting that John Altobelli the ex-ballplayer and coach, and his wife and daughter among the dead in the copter crash that killed Kobe Bryant and daughter.
   721. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:18 PM (#5919457)
Well thank you for pointing out Kobe was a rapist, so I don't have to. ;)
For some people, he'll never be anything else. I'm already dealing with one death in my immediate family this week, so I don't have the energy or generosity to have that conversation. For those less certain about their moral superiority, Charles Pierce wrote a great piece today.
   722. aberg Posted: January 26, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5919465)
For whatever I've said about Kobe before, today just made me really sad.
   723. Fancy Crazy Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 26, 2020 at 11:33 PM (#5919469)
For some people, he'll never be anything else. I'm already dealing with one death in my immediate family this week, so I don't have the energy or generosity to have that conversation. For those less certain about their moral superiority, Charles Pierce wrote a great piece today.

My condolences. You have my sincerest sympathies for what you are going through.

I have been dealing with a girlfriend who was raped, and what that did to her, for the last 7 years. So forgive me if for me, Kobe will never be anything else.
   724. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: January 26, 2020 at 11:54 PM (#5919472)
Nike agrees with most NBA observers that Kobe ranks among the very best players in the NBA
   725. Howie Menckel Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:20 AM (#5919475)
adding to my post 711, this from cnn.com:

Bryant's death was the latest in a string of tragic celebrity-death scoops TMZ has landed since it launched in 2005. In 2009, the website first reported the death of Michael Jackson. In 2012, the outlet broke news that Whitney Houston had died in a bathtub. And in 2016, TMZ was first to inform the world about Prince's death.

"When it comes to high-profile people, they have an 'in' with the kinds of people who know this information," Matthew Belloni, the editorial director of The Hollywood Reporter, told CNN in a phone interview on Sunday.

Belloni added, "If TMZ reports that a celebrity has died in Los Angeles County, it is almost always correct. For whatever reason, and you can read into this, their accuracy rate in Los Angeles is very, very good."
   726. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2020 at 08:11 AM (#5919488)
One quibble I have with El hombre's take on Kobe is that Kobe was most definitely allowed to grow into his role. I remember when he got drafted the Lakers made it clear he would be riding the bench a lot and he most certainly did that first year and his second year. He only started 7 games over those two seasons and his minutes per game was something like 20 minutes a night.

On the flip side LeBron started every have of his teams his rookie season and was on the floor 40 minutes a night.
   727. JJ1986 Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:01 AM (#5919512)
Is "almost always correct" really good enough for reporting deaths?
   728. Dock Ellis Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:04 AM (#5919513)
TMZ even broke Nick Adenhart's death. They are goddam vultures.
   729. jmurph Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:10 AM (#5919515)
Is "almost always correct" really good enough for reporting deaths?

An ABC News guy told us live on air yesterday that all four of the Bryant children had died in the crash. For some reason TMZ is held to higher standards than that.
   730. Dock Ellis Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:17 AM (#5919518)
Well, TMZ told us before the police were able to notify next-of-kin so I repeat, they are goddam vultures.
   731. jmurph Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:23 AM (#5919521)
No quibbles with that, but I was responding to the previous post.
   732. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:28 AM (#5919523)
I totally agree with Puck in #719. If nothing else, Kobe was a smart, self-aware guy, and seemed like a great dad.

On the court, he was indisputably the best basketball villain of my lifetime. What a fascinating, memorable, polarizing player. If only the Hornets hadn't traded his rights :|

   733. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:46 AM (#5919536)
Someone tweeted that Kobe was the closest thing to religion when it comes to discussing basketball and I think that's the best way to put the intensity of opinion he generates on both sides, on and off the court, in perspective (kudos to rr for originating the nickname Satan for him on this very board). The first player I grew to sportshate after MJ left my life, I will always appreciate him for that. This sucks for all families involved. Just ####### terrible stuff. ####.
   734. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:00 AM (#5919543)
Belloni added, "If TMZ reports that a celebrity has died in Los Angeles County, it is almost always correct. For whatever reason, and you can read into this, their accuracy rate in Los Angeles is very, very good."

Isn't 'the reason' that they pay sources? And given how everyone has been talking about them the last 21 hours, it's clearly good for their brand to be first, but it's another example of the insanity of this type of reporting. As with signings and trades in sports, it's tough to see the actual value in breaking factual news that would be released by the interested parties soon after anyway.
   735. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:18 AM (#5919557)
Appreciate the posts about Bryant.

I think it's sad that Bryant died absolutely but the young people dying, like his daughter, that is what is completely tragic. Bryant got to the pinnacle of his profession, had all kinds of amazing experiences, had the life that so many do not attain. The young people, man, completely different.

And what is causing people to say the NBA should have cancelled games? Or maybe I am just catching a fringe element and this is not the general attitude.
   736. bunyon Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:35 AM (#5919563)
@735: Absolutely. I was shocked to hear Kobe had passed (especially since I wasn't told how and it came off like a heart attack or something) but not gutted. Lots of people die and it's sad. 41 is young but - and I remember distinctly realizing this around the time I was that age - it's a life. I'm 49 now and, while I haven't achieved to the extent that Kobe had, I've done a lot. I'm probably a 1%er when it comes to privilege of life in the history of humanity. Travel, love, work, comfort, etc. If I kick it now, I have no complaints. Kobe is probably a .0001%er.

With that said, I obviously would sign up for another 49 and have every intention of getting at least half that again.

Anyway, I went to look up the details and saw his daughter was with him and, well, that got me. 13, no matter how privileged her life might have been to this point, is just not right. So much was ahead of her. Same for the other kids onboard. That's just terrible in every sense of the word; nothing can really comfort over that loss.
   737. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:45 AM (#5919568)
What's the basketball stathead thinking on Kobe's playing record? I only know that he's generally of the player type that is almost bound to get overrated...
   738. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:52 AM (#5919572)
737--FWIW Bryant is super respected by players old and new. I know you were asking about analyst view but since this feeling is SO strong among players think it matters and should be considered.
   739. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:03 PM (#5919580)
What's the basketball stathead thinking on Kobe's playing record? I only know that he's generally of the player type that is almost bound to get overrated...

Overrated but still a Top 15ish guy all time.
   740. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:22 PM (#5919586)
I was never a fan of Bryant the player, but will note:
- I think statheads underrate the importance of usage, as a rule - and -
- Kobe reportedly had the highest pace adjusted scoring season of all time in '05-'06.
(it was an outlier, to be fair)
   741. Manny Coon Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:30 PM (#5919592)
For me he was sort of a Derek Jeter type; great, iconic player, easy hall of famer, but overrated because of some significant flaws. It's also worth noting that almost of all the players I would rate over him are bigger, stronger players; so his success stands out as it was done with a higher level of skill and difficultly; Tim Duncan and Shaq were more effective players but the way they dominated generally wasn't nearly as exciting or spectacular.
   742. aberg Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:51 PM (#5919606)
I don't have the final rankings handy, but when we did the BBTF all-time top 50, I think he came in somewhere in the 15-20 range.
   743. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:52 PM (#5919608)
The Backpicks guy has him 13th, which seems high but not insane.
   744. spivey Posted: January 27, 2020 at 01:13 PM (#5919619)
I think I'd have Kobe around 20th, is my guess, and likely moving down after some of the current crop finishes. I can imagine wanting to have KD, Curry, and perhaps Harden all above him. But many of those ahead of him are bigs.

Kobe's usage was very good, and although his efficiency wasn't great, it was a less efficient time in basketball. That said, I do wonder a bit how he'd translate even into today's game. He shot enough free throws, and was very good at them, that he'd still be very good. But he wasn't a high percentage 2pt shooter because of his midrange, and he didn't show an ability to shoot 3s very well. And they were popular enough for most of his career to where, I think, if he was ever capable of being a good 3 point shooter in another era, we'd have seen more hints of it. Maybe he gets to the rim even more, possible.

Anyways, we talk a lot about how some bigs translate, it feels to me like Kobe was in precisely the right era for his type of game. Even still, also very little black ink. Relatively to the types of guys who are in the top 20, I'd argue a fairly weak peak.
   745. jmurph Posted: January 27, 2020 at 01:45 PM (#5919630)
What's the basketball stathead thinking on Kobe's playing record? I only know that he's generally of the player type that is almost bound to get overrated...

I think there's also a much different approach to counting the rings in NBA stathead circles vs MLB stathead circles, which is broadly reflective of the importance of individual players in each sport. A guy with a slightly better statistical record but significantly fewer rings is (rightly, I think) going to be considered a lesser player than Kobe on the all-time lists.
   746. JJ1986 Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5919640)
I'm not sure where I'd have Kobe, but almost certainly somewhere between 10th and 20th. I find it harder to compare basketball players across eras than it is with baseball players (and it's pretty hard for me to rate NBA players pre-1980s). It's fair to say that he had two close contemporaries who were clearly better statistically, but he gets rated over them in the general public because of things like the rings and because other players love shotmakers.
   747. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:27 PM (#5919651)
It's also worth noting that almost of all the players I would rate over him are bigger, stronger players; so his success stands out as it was done with a higher level of skill and difficultly; Tim Duncan and Shaq were more effective players but the way they dominated generally wasn't nearly as exciting or spectacular.


I was just thinking this exact thought. Is Kobe (and MJ) the smallest guy in the all-time Top 20? Not surprisingly, the list is dominated by bigs, even Magic and LeBron are 6'9".

Kobe and Jordan are both 6'6". Jerry West is listed at 6'2", and West and Kobe are (I think) the two choices for second-greatest 2-guard of all time.

Side note: BK-REF has John Stockton and Chris Paul in the top 13 in career Win Shares.

   748. spivey Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:33 PM (#5919658)
How much 2 guard did West really play? I was looking him up, and on basketball-reference, he's list primarily as a PG, and his assist numbers seem to suggest that as well. He lead the league in assists one year.

That said, I think he still has some compiling to do, but I think it's well over 75% that Steph finishes above Kobe in my personal rankings. CP3 vs. Kobe is an interesting one I've been toying with. Kobe had great teammates, but Paul's had some pretty damn good teammates too. Too good, for the playoff failures he's had. Although, Paul's playoff numbers are quite good. It's complicated.
   749. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5919662)
I was shocked to hear Kobe had passed (especially since I wasn't told how and it came off like a heart attack or something) but not gutted.


Not a fan of his or his team's or, hell, of the NBA itself, but when I saw the MSN.com headline on my phone I literally* said "What. The. ####." out loud.

*Well, I didn't literally say "asterisk asterisk asterisk asterisk." What I said started with F & rhymed with puck.
   750. Booey Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:47 PM (#5919671)
#737 - I'd say Kobe is slightly overrated, but only slightly. He's not egregiously overrated like Bill Walton or Isiah Thomas. Basically, he's a top 20 player who's talked about like he's a top 5 or 10 player. He's much closer to guys like Barkley or Dirk than he is to Jordan or LeBron. But again, top 20 all time is still inner circle HOF territory, so he's not overrated by THAT much.

From his own (rough) era, LeBron obviously laps the field, but I'd definitely rank Kobe behind Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett as well, and (again) about on par with Dirk. Amongst the guys who came later (only considering those over 30), KD, Steph, and Harden haven't passed Kobe in career value yet, but all of them were better at their peaks, IMO. CP3 is a tough one; he sure doesn't FEEL like he was the better player, but all the advanced stats say that he clearly was.

As others have noted, NBA players are hard to rank; because of the disproportionate impact individual stars have on winning compared to other sports, "Count da ringzzz!" holds a lot of sway in the court of public opinion. While playoff performance should certainly do it's share of heavy lifting, I personally think it should be applied based on how the individual player performed and not the TEAM results. A player who performs poorly in the postseason should get demerits for that, even if his teammates picked up the slack and they won anyway. Likewise, someone who played great should get bumped up for that, even if the rest of his team couldn't seal the deal. This is where Kobe gets a bit overrated, IMO. He's got 5 rings, but his playoff numbers - while good - aren't any better than several other guys with lower ring counts. The one-ringed Dirk's postseason numbers are slightly better, for example, and the ringless Barkley's are clearly superior.

Edit: Also, as others have pointed out, the list of inner circle NBA greats is disproportionately dominated by bigs. Kobe's on a very short list of the best guards of all time.
   751. The Good Face Posted: January 27, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5919688)
Well thank you for pointing out Kobe was a rapist, so I don't have to. ;)

For some people, he'll never be anything else.


You screw ONE goat...
   752. jmurph Posted: January 27, 2020 at 04:21 PM (#5919701)
Kobe reportedly had the highest pace adjusted scoring season of all time in '05-'06.

Numbers in a twitter chart here.
   753. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: January 27, 2020 at 04:54 PM (#5919715)
Another Zion note, supposedly he's rebounded half of his own missed shots so far (6/12); source I think is Haberstroh, who provided that Kobe twitter chart as well.
   754. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 27, 2020 at 05:23 PM (#5919735)
Where is rr when we need him the most?


This will be long; people who are not interested in my opinions on Bryant/his death should scroll by.

Personal reaction: Bryant stuff is connected to this thread, in that I put the thread up mostly since I had found myself in arguments with Kevin and Backlasher about Bryant on a few baseball threads. Both Kevin and Backlasher are very knowledgeable about the NBA and hard-core anti-Bryant guys. Kevin was/is a huge Boston fan, and Backlasher hated Phil Jackson, so that added to the venom/criticism. That was my first experience as a Private in Kobe's Army, as Henry Abbott and John Hollinger used to call the people who wrote into them about Bryant. At that time, there was no OTP and no off-topic sports threads, and the baseball-only crowd was getting twitchy. So I submitted it in May 2009 as the NBA Playoffs Thread, with this tagline:

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA Playoffs, but with our own thread, we won't detract from what this site is really about: the Duke LaCrosse case and Pavement's discography.


The Duke case was a big OT thing then, and Pavement was sort of BTF's house band. I thought the thread would be a few guys talking about the 2009 NBA Playoffs, then it would go away. 10 1/2 years later, the thread and the 10-12 Primates line is still here, OTP has come and gone, and there is the Soccer thread, the NFL thread, the Pop culture thread, and usually a NHL playoffs thread. There are also guys--notably berg, shipman, Moses, Hombre, JC in DC, NJ, and Der-K as well as a a few others--who have been on this thread more or less the entire 10.5 years. Marking the thread in Kobe-Time, when I submitted the first one, he was 30, and had not won a title without Shaq. And now we are here.

Magic's HIV announcement was personally much more difficult for me than this is. Magic Johnson and Pau Gasol are my two all-time favorites, and at the time, it was widely believed that Magic would die within a year or so, after a lot of suffering. I was sick to my stomach for a couple of days, and did not watch any basketball until the playoffs.

The sadness I feel about Bryant's death is very different. First, of course, there were kids on the helicopter. Second, John Altobelli. I am a FT tenured (lucky man in that regard) prof at a CC in SoCal, so a guy doing what Altobelli did--and his daughter was on the same team's as Bryant's and was also on the copter--hits me in a different way.

But the basketball piece of it is this: First, Lakers fans between 25-50 pretty much have never known any NBA world without Kobe Bryant. As you would guess, there are countless posts in the Lakers blogosphere with people saying that they grew up with Kobe, they had never cried over a celebrity death until this one etc. Second, LA, where I lived for several years, as is widely known and well-chronicled, is not really a "city" the way most other cities are. Rather, it is a collection of culturally diverse and far-flung communities all along the economic spectrum. It sounds cornball, but whether it is a hole-in-the-wall ethnic food place in East LA, a Chili's in Reseda, a bistro in Malibu, or a dorm room at SC or UCLA--you can see Lakers stuff and Kobe stuff on the walls and on the people's backs. The 300 level at Staples, the upper bowl, is very ethnically diverse, and that is where the blue-collar part of the Lakers fanbase sits. And in every row, literally--you can see somebody in a Bryant jersey. So I am sad for all of those people today, and for many of them, the Lakers, the league, and the sports landscape of the city won't be the same, ever.

Other teams have icons ofc, and I thought today of what Duncan means to San Antonio and Nowitzki means to Dallas. But Bryant's career in LA--the trade, the connection to West, the threepeat, yes, the rape allegation, the Shaq break-up, the back-to-back with the the Lakers only Game 7 win over Boston, the Achilles, the bizarre farewell tour ending with the 60--unique ride.
   755. Zach Posted: January 27, 2020 at 05:31 PM (#5919737)
The funny thing about Kobe was that his determination to be a great player always shared equal billing, and sometimes even took the starring role, with his actually being a great player.

As a young player, that was incredibly annoying because why couldn't he just team up with Shaq and win everything in sight?

As an older guy, it kind of morphed into being a ballplayer's ballplayer who got everything out of his talent, stats notwithstanding.

After all that, it's a shame that we never got to see him mellow into simply being great -- rooting for young kids, enjoying the laurels without having to earn them every day.
   756. Tin Angel Posted: January 27, 2020 at 05:37 PM (#5919740)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania

In aftermath of Kobe Bryant passing away, Lakers/Clippers game Tuesday has been postponed.
   757. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 27, 2020 at 05:38 PM (#5919741)
Part 2:

The rape allegation: I am not going to get into it here, but I have read all about it on-line, and having seen that stuff, and I can certainly see why there are people who will never see him other ways, don't care about his records and other stuff he has done, and would be disgusted by his getting treated the way he is in the media. But I do not see much point in opening that topic here, although others may choose to.

Looking ahead: As it turned out, this will be Bryant's last Tweet:

>>>Kobe Bryant
@kobebryant
·
Jan 25
Continuing to move the game forward
@KingJames
. Much respect my brother

The part of the fanbase most ambivalent about James are the KobePhiles. That is not me--I have always liked James, and really dig rooting for him. While it is tasteless to talk about basketball narratives this soon after children have died, I am going to do so anyway: If James can somehow lead the Lakers to the title now (and I have already seen a few "Win it for the Mamba" posts in LakerLand), that will make him as big of a hero to the fanbase as Magic or Kobe was, albeit in a different way.
   758. aberg Posted: January 27, 2020 at 05:46 PM (#5919744)
Thanks rr. I disagree with one part- it's not worth scrolling by for those not interested in Kobe.

Reading that brought up some of my feelings about Kirby Puckett's retirement and death. There are some vague parallels between the two- both won quite a bit, both had skills and personalities that lend them to getting a little overrated, both had issues away from the game that hurt their legacies, both seemed to get the absolute most out of non-traditional bodies for their sport, both pretty much finished by a bad injury. I have always been perplexed by the genuflection about Kobe's greatness, but your explanation about the unifying cultural fabric helps me understand it a bit.
   759. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 27, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5919761)
I'm not a fan of Kobe, but I think the 24s/8s violation thing at the beginning of the game is pure class.
   760. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 27, 2020 at 07:19 PM (#5919762)
Thanks rr. I disagree with one part- it's not worth scrolling by for those not interested in Kobe.

STRONGLY CONCUR.
   761. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 27, 2020 at 08:37 PM (#5919774)
The Kings don't play a lot of defence, huh?
   762. tshipman Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:20 PM (#5919788)
I think that Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, but probably underrated by most stat minded people.

Kobe was extremely resilient in the playoffs. If you compare him to James Harden, for example, Kobe's notably less efficient in the regular season, but stays the same or gets better (in his prime) in the playoffs. Kobe led the league in end of quarter heaves in his career, which alone takes his 3p shooting from a minus to a neutral.

Kobe generally gets punished in box score stats for playing in the triangle, playing in a defense-first era, and playing through injury.

In 2001, he was the best player on the best playoff team in the history of the league. The Lakers were actually a better team with Shaq off the court than on, but were 14 points worse when Kobe was off the court.
In 2010, almost 10 years later, he was the best player on the court in the playoffs again.
   763. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: January 27, 2020 at 10:38 PM (#5919790)
The Kings don't play a lot of defence, huh?


This got me thinking. How many teams are there that don't play a lot of defense? The Hawks, Wiz, and Cavs don't play *any* defense. The Knicks, Suns, Wolfs, and Pelicans certainly don't play a lot of defense either. Blazers also, though they have the injury excuse. Probably some others I'm forgetting. Playing defense is hard, man.
   764. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:25 PM (#5919801)
   765. Booey Posted: January 28, 2020 at 12:01 AM (#5919805)
The actual game was a$$, but the moment of silence and Kobe tribute before tip-off, the Jazz and Rockets opening up with a 24 second violation and then an 8 second back court violation, and the little shrine fans built outside Vivint by decorating the giant music note statue with Kobe memorabilia were all nice touches.

Letting Eric Gordon score a Kobe-esque 50 pts was a bridge too far though, IMO.
   766. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 28, 2020 at 07:15 AM (#5919823)
That was some result in Minneapolis last night.
   767. PJ Martinez Posted: January 28, 2020 at 09:12 AM (#5919840)
How does a team close a 17-point gap in under 3 minutes? It doesn't even seem possible.
   768. eric Posted: January 28, 2020 at 09:41 AM (#5919846)
I never thought I'd be posting in this thread, but...

This story about Gonzo Heynow and Kobe's last game put a smile on my face.


there's another side to the story.
   769. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 28, 2020 at 11:42 AM (#5919883)
there's another side to the story.
Mike Tirico is #fakenews!
   770. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: January 28, 2020 at 11:47 AM (#5919886)
[769] Indeed he is.

Sitting at work and just went to the ESPN NBA homepage and...I still can't quite process the idea that Kobe is dead.
   771. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: January 28, 2020 at 12:09 PM (#5919895)
Sitting at work and just went to the ESPN NBA homepage and...I still can't quite process the idea that Kobe is dead.

Yeah, I keep going through that same thing.

Like others, his daughter dying with him - plus the other families losing parents and/or children - is the part that is just crushing me. I can't believe I'm about to link to Abbott again, and especially about Kobe, but his piece really captures a bunch of the thoughts that have been going through my head. As such, I'm having a hard time even thinking about the other stuff, like where's he rated historically*, or how to really feel about him or any celebrity with a similar history and redemption storyline, but it's hard to dwell on the good stuff when there was a lot of good, even if it was indirect through fandom or whatever. He did seem like a guy that was set up to do a lot of good in his post playing life.

I'll cosign the other posters praising rr's take on it. There's been a lot of good writing and video pieces and I've read/watched most of them - from all different perspectives, be it the Pierce pierce linked above or Plaschke or even this. Tons of good stuff at ESPN, Athletic, etc. I should also link to Lowe's great piece from today.

*Only comment I'll make here is that I agree with tship about how people like us tend to underrate him as much as the general public overrate him - it's far from consensus, but there are a LOT of people that have him either right with MJ/LeBron or even higher; a LOT of people have him ahead of LeBron. He was both enjoyable to watch and incredibly frustrating in ways different than other greats.
   772. JL72 Posted: January 28, 2020 at 12:19 PM (#5919898)
and playing through injury.


While never a huge fan of his, I always respected Kobe as a player. One think I did love was how he gave 100% in every game. I cannot recall a single time where gave less.
   773. bunyon Posted: January 28, 2020 at 12:22 PM (#5919899)
@770: You say your parents separated soon after you were born and your father lost touch? Can't imagine what precipitated that.


And, yeah, rr's two posts are excellent. (As are a lot of the others). I should spend more time in the NBA thread.
   774. jmurph Posted: January 28, 2020 at 12:41 PM (#5919910)
How does a team close a 17-point gap in under 3 minutes? It doesn't even seem possible.

ESPN Stats & Info @ESPNStatsInfo
The Kings trailed the Timberwolves by 17 points with 2:49 left in the 4th quarter.

Since 1996-97, the first year of play-by-play data, NBA teams entered the day 0-8,378 when trailing by 17 or more in the final 3 minutes of the 4th quarter or overtime.

The Kings won, 133-129.
   775. aberg Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:00 PM (#5919920)
The Wolves and UW Huskies have now both set records for blowing insane leads late in games in the last couple weeks. Yay for me.
   776. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:09 PM (#5919928)
It's like, after all this time, you would think the Twolves would have run out of ways to surprise and disappoint. MORE FOOL YOU.
   777. jmurph Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:14 PM (#5919929)
I know they seem to be against it, but I think if they can get something nice for Covington they have to do it. I know it's a great contract and he's a good fit for every team, etc., I get the argument for keeping him, but this team is terrible and isn't close to being not-terrible.
   778. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:26 PM (#5919935)
The Dunc’d On podcast mock trade deadline has the Wolves swapping Covington for three firsts, which seems bananas?
   779. aberg Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:31 PM (#5919938)
Can we trade him for a coach?

There are a few structural things that are wrong with the Wolves. They're playing a 3pt heavy system without shooters. They don't have a PG (Napier is probably slightly above-average as a backup, but not starting caliber). They have a coach who looked to be very underqualified when he got the job and has proven that to be true.

If you zoom out, the bigger picture is that they're clearing the deck around Towns. Culver looks like an interesting wing, but without enough shooting ability to be close to a star. I still believe the medium-term strategy is to clear Wiggins, Dieng, and Teague-now-Crabbe off the books to have more star-hunting flexibility. If any of Bates-Diop, Nowell, Reid, McLaughlin, or Martin turn into cheap role players, that's a bonus. Rosas has Towns and those pieces playing the system he wants and biding time until he can build a team around Towns.
   780. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:47 PM (#5919945)
I am still on board with Rosas' overall idea, but it's a slog. And I don't think Saunders is doing a good job; and the depredations of The Screaming Troll (as my wife calls Thibs) have left the cabinet basically empty. Sigh. I should just switch to hockey.
   781. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: January 28, 2020 at 01:57 PM (#5919951)
I cannot recall a single time where gave less.

I'm sure the entire second half of game seven against Phoenix is on YouTube.
   782. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: January 28, 2020 at 02:08 PM (#5919955)
I think that Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, but probably underrated by most stat minded people.

Kobe was extremely resilient in the playoffs. If you compare him to James Harden, for example, Kobe's notably less efficient in the regular season, but stays the same or gets better (in his prime) in the playoffs. Kobe led the league in end of quarter heaves in his career, which alone takes his 3p shooting from a minus to a neutral.

Kobe generally gets punished in box score stats for playing in the triangle, playing in a defense-first era, and playing through injury.

In 2001, he was the best player on the best playoff team in the history of the league. The Lakers were actually a better team with Shaq off the court than on, but were 14 points worse when Kobe was off the court.
In 2010, almost 10 years later, he was the best player on the court in the playoffs again.


As a fairly stat-heavy guy, I've got him as top 15-20 of all time. Not quite as high as the casual fan, but now I'm curious about where you have him.
   783. Booey Posted: January 28, 2020 at 02:50 PM (#5919967)
Yeah, I don't think top 15-20 all time is really underrating Kobe. That's inner circle, and all the guys ahead of him are legends. It's not an insult to say that maybe he wasn't really better than a couple players he's always ranked ahead of like KG or the Admiral just because he has more rings.
   784. aberg Posted: January 28, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5919971)
The way I see it, it would be nearly impossible to rank Kobe ahead of these guys: Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Duncan (9). It would be very difficult to rate him ahead of these guys: KG, Shaq, Olajuwon, Malone (4). I would probably also have him behind Robinson and West and probably Durant and Curry by the time they're done. That would make him 16 now with a chance to go to 18 depending on the next few years for Curry and KD. Dirk, Elgin Baylor, Moses, Pettit, Barkley, Erving are in the same stratosphere.

If someone really wanted to push it, I could see maybe putting him right behind those initial 9 guys.
   785. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 28, 2020 at 03:50 PM (#5919983)
Someone mentioned the Backpicks guy had him at 13, and on his podcast, Ben Taylor explained why he had Kobe rated so much higher than someone like Wade or Harden. Basically, it came down to Bryant's game-raising level in the playoffs. Efficiency declines in the playoffs are normal, even for great players, but while Wade and Harden (particularly Harden) both saw their effectiveness decline in the postseason, Bryant's actually went up because his offensive skills were more varied and he could counter what opponent defenses set up against him in a way that Wade, Harden, and others could not. His insistence on taking lower-percentage shots capped his overall efficiency, but Taylor marked him as the most reliable non-Jordan scoring guard in NBA history, able to maintain a high level of production in any system and regardless of the quality of his teammates.

The Thinking Basketball podcast episode on Kobe, Harden, Wade.

The BackPicks.com essay on why he's #13.
   786. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:02 PM (#5919987)
So weird to me how the conversation has morphed from "how did this happen?" to "I need to explain how this hits me on a personal level" to "NBA should cancel games or do things" to "Why I loved Kobe Bryant" to "Kobe in NBA history".

Not going after anyone here. Just sharing how the discussion has evolved on the internet and elsewhere since Sunday. Just really weird.

   787. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:03 PM (#5919988)
Someone mentioned the Backpicks guy had him at 13, and on his podcast, Ben Taylor explained why he had Kobe rated so much higher than someone like Wade or Harden. Basically, it came down to Bryant's game-raising level in the playoffs. Efficiency declines in the playoffs are normal, even for great players, but while Wade and Harden (particularly Harden) both saw their effectiveness decline in the postseason, Bryant's actually went up because his offensive skills were more varied and he could counter what opponent defenses set up against him in a way that Wade, Harden, and others could not. His insistence on taking lower-percentage shots capped his overall efficiency, but Taylor marked him as the most reliable non-Jordan scoring guard in NBA history, able to maintain a high level of production in any system and regardless of the quality of his teammates.


That seems like an excellent summary of the pro-Kobe case.

Other NBA players worshiped the ground Kobe walked on to an amazing degree. In their world, it seems, there's no currency that can compete with being able to take the ball and score, anytime, on anyone. And the very greatest thing is to be able to score anytime, on anyone, with style. That's what Kobe was all about, it's really the only thing Kobe was all about and he was fanatically devoted to it, and other players were in awe of him because of it.

Carmelo Anthony also seems to have outsize respect from other players compared to how much he actually helped his team win games, and for the same reason--Melo in his prime could light up the scoreboard no matter what you did to try to stop him.
   788. JC in DC Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:08 PM (#5919991)
The way I see it, it would be nearly impossible to rank Kobe ahead of these guys: Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Duncan (9). It would be very difficult to rate him ahead of these guys: KG, Shaq, Olajuwon, Malone (4). I would probably also have him behind Robinson and West and probably Durant and Curry by the time they're done. That would make him 16 now with a chance to go to 18 depending on the next few years for Curry and KD. Dirk, Elgin Baylor, Moses, Pettit, Barkley, Erving are in the same stratosphere.


This is great stuff, but, man, having watched these guys, I can't imagine Moses behind Karl Malone, or really, thinking Karl and Durant and Curry rank ahead of Moses and Erving. But I imagine this just shows how close a lot of these guys were/are.
   789. aberg Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:10 PM (#5919992)
So weird to me how the conversation has morphed from "how did this happen?" to "I need to explain how this hits me on a personal level" to "NBA should cancel games or do things" to "Why I loved Kobe Bryant" to "Kobe in NBA history".


I thought about that when I jumped into the ranking discussion. I'm sorry if anyone finds it in poor taste. I ultimately decided to join in because those are the kinds of discussions we have here and I don't think a debate about the accomplishments of Kobe vs. David Robinson undermines who he was as a person.
   790. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:11 PM (#5919993)
I can only speak to what I see on Youtube but isn't Malone just Greg Monroe in a time that was best for his game? Is Malone even able to play regularly today?? I accept being told this is a dumb question but wow, that dude seems like he would be completely out of place now.
   791. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5919994)
Do you mean Moses or Karl? Either way, at minimum I'm pretty sure Moses could be DeAndre But Better and Karl could be Blake Griffin But Healthier.

Moses was incredibly physically dominant--look at Zion, who's roughly halfway between Barkley and Shaq athletically, and, um, yeah, Zion has a future in this league.
   792. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:16 PM (#5919995)
791--Karl Malone. Moses Malone is obviously awesome. Karl Malone to me is very much not awesome.
   793. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:18 PM (#5919997)
Well, now you've done it. If you'll excuse me, I'll be over here in the far corner of the room while Booey and Tom lay some mushroom clouds. :)
   794. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:21 PM (#5919999)
I'm honestly not sure how Monroe is a comp for Karl Malone. Malone was great in the post, pick & roll, pick & pop (though obv not out to 3 like you'd want today), was an athletic freak in his prime and phenomenal in transition. He was also a very good defender, though not a rim protector. I think he would pretty easily be a superstar in today's league too.


Well, now you've done it. If you'll excuse me, I'll be over here in the far corner of the room while Booey and Tom lay some mushroom clouds. :)


I mean if he wanted to say Karl is an awful person, I'm not going to argue. But a comparison to Greg effing Monroe?
   795. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:23 PM (#5920000)
Melo in his prime could light up the scoreboard no matter what you did to try to stop him.

'Melo brought SU a banner and is forgiven for everything else (even if Hakeem Warrick stopped what we all knew for .2 seconds was Keith Smart 2.0).
   796. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:25 PM (#5920001)
791--Karl Malone. Moses Malone is obviously awesome. Karl Malone to me is very much not awesome.
WUT?? If anything, it's Moses that'd be left out in the cold in today's NBA, a powerful but slow rebounding big man with little range or passing game. On the other hand, Karl was a transition terror, and peak Mailman spent so much of his time in midrange that I could easily imagine him developing a reasonable 3-point game had he come up in 2020.
   797. jmurph Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:26 PM (#5920002)
Karl Malone is the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the league. He retired only 16 years ago, it's not like we're talking about Cousy here. I'm reasonably sure his game would translate.
   798. jmurph Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:28 PM (#5920003)
I thought about that when I jumped into the ranking discussion. I'm sorry if anyone finds it in poor taste. I ultimately decided to join in because those are the kinds of discussions we have here and I don't think a debate about the accomplishments of Kobe vs. David Robinson undermines who he was as a person.

This seems like a totally normal thing for us to do, particularly since we're talking about his greatness.
   799. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5920005)
Agree that Karl'd be a star. Maybe a more physical (and healthier) Blake Griffin, with more defense and a bit less playmaking?
   800. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 28, 2020 at 04:33 PM (#5920007)
On the other hand, Karl was a transition terror, and peak Mailman spent so much of his time in midrange that I could easily imagine him developing a reasonable 3-point game had he come up in 2020.


Yeah, I was thinking about this too. I'm not sure if he would become a good above-the-break 3P shooter, but I am nearly certain he would have become a very good corner-3P shooter in today's game. I think Blake is definitely the closest comp to him, but Malone obviously was far more durable and I'd say still a solid notch above a healthy Blake.

I think it's a better question to ask if Malone would be even better in a space and pace league? I honestly am not sure which way I'd go there. It's not like Garnett where I think his skillset would obviously have greater advantages in the league today. Malone was a good passer at least, so I think he'd still be someone you could run post plays for, and he might get even more P&Rs; run for him today.
Page 8 of 14 pages ‹ First  < 6 7 8 9 10 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Traderdave
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (February 2020)
(95 - 11:23am, Feb 17)
Last: Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it

NewsblogAstros’ Dusty Baker begs MLB to protect players from cheating retaliation
(8 - 11:18am, Feb 17)
Last: Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it

NewsblogAgainst the Astros and their reputation, suspicious Nationals felt they had to assume the worst
(2 - 11:17am, Feb 17)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogHow will the Red Sox market a Mookie-less team? - The Boston Globe
(1 - 11:10am, Feb 17)
Last: Jose Is Absurdly Chatty

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 2-17-2020
(2 - 11:08am, Feb 17)
Last: JL72

NewsblogRob Manfred offers little insight, shows contempt for reporters in press conference
(14 - 11:03am, Feb 17)
Last: Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it

Gonfalon CubsBeing cheap is not a plan
(101 - 11:02am, Feb 17)
Last: Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread 2020
(1362 - 10:40am, Feb 17)
Last: Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield

NewsblogPitcher Chad Bettis, Yankees reach minor league deal
(2 - 9:57am, Feb 17)
Last: Captain Supporter

NewsblogSABR announces 2020 Henry Chadwick Award recipients
(1 - 8:43am, Feb 17)
Last: asinwreck

NewsblogJoe Palumbo and his 4,000 calorie shake
(2 - 8:23am, Feb 17)
Last: Fernigal McGunnigle

NewsblogRosenthal: Carlos Correa rips Bellinger, passionately defends Altuve and says the Astros deserve their 2017 title – The Athletic
(56 - 3:28am, Feb 17)
Last: Mayor Blomberg

NewsblogThe Ringer: The Myths Behind Boston’s Mookie Betts Trade Justification
(22 - 10:11pm, Feb 16)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogBlue Jays legend Fernandez dies at 57
(17 - 9:59pm, Feb 16)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogCubs 3B Bryant: No hard feelings on losing grievance
(5 - 9:43pm, Feb 16)
Last: WKRP in Cincinnatus

Page rendered in 0.7339 seconds
46 querie(s) executed