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Thursday, August 06, 2020

OT - NBA Bubble Thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and hopefully none of them get caught leaving the bubble for strip club wings.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: August 06, 2020 at 06:04 PM | 4089 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bubbles, nba, off-topic

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   3901. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 20, 2020 at 12:24 PM (#5984044)
Pacers hire Nate Bjorkgren as head coach.
edit: I know the name but not much about him - was an assistant under Nurse in Toronto, before that an assistant with the Suns and a head coach in the G League.
   3902. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2020 at 12:25 PM (#5984045)
If, like me, your reaction was, "Who?"

He was an assistant in Toronto.
   3903. aberg Posted: October 20, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5984055)
Front offices suck at it, too, with way more information.

I think it's just really hard to tell. You give a 19 year old something they've been working for their entire life and you validate their crazy beliefs and then you tell them they have to work a lot harder? A lot of them are going to struggle.


This is a really good point. Some of the questions are hard to answer with the data we have now. Some are impossible to answer because we don't have any way to gather the data. And some are probably just straight up impossible to answer.

LeBron is probably the hardest working, smartest superstar in ages. It took him until ... 2011? For him to really commit to working and evolving his game.


I think Lebron always worked hard. I just think he didn't always work hard on the right things. Coaches and front offices have probably improved at teaching those things a little bit, but there are still lots of gaps in identifying, conveying, and instilling the right lessons at the right time.
   3904. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 20, 2020 at 02:06 PM (#5984059)
Coaches and front offices have probably improved at teaching those things a little bit, but there are still lots of gaps in identifying, conveying, and instilling the right lessons at the right time.

The right time portion of that is the part it's impossible to nail, I think. (Not that the rest is simple or easy either.) A talented 20 year-old in the NBA really needs to develop the portion of their skillset that the NBA is going to revolve around 2-8 years in the future, which is at best hazily knowable. LeBron spent his early career in rockfights with the Pistons, Celtics, and Pacers only to transition into today's pace and space NBA. (To say nothing of getting out from under the shadow of the Kobe/MJ-style lone gunfighter, which was never quite his game.) The skills that helped him drag Cavs rosters past those teams weren't the exact same skills he needed next to Wade and Bosh, etc etc. It's not just the work and learning, it's also being smart and lucky enough to work and learn on the right things.
   3905. spivey Posted: October 20, 2020 at 03:14 PM (#5984070)
A lot of good posts about effort/improvement.

I agree with almost all of it.

Though one clarification I'll make is even if LeBron didn't improve certain aspects of his game like post-ups, he did improve a lot defensively. He was one of the very best wing defenders in the game before he won a ring.

And that's the sort of thing that I think every player (probably?) gets coached in, and needs to improve on. And it's not something that is new.
   3906. NJ in NJ Posted: October 20, 2020 at 04:09 PM (#5984082)
The right time portion of that is the part it's impossible to nail, I think. (Not that the rest is simple or easy either.) A talented 20 year-old in the NBA really needs to develop the portion of their skillset that the NBA is going to revolve around 2-8 years in the future, which is at best hazily knowable.

This is really, really, really well put.
   3907. NJ in NJ Posted: October 20, 2020 at 04:12 PM (#5984083)
The latest Thinking Basketball pod took an approach to discussing players that I really loved. Ben Taylor goes into it on more detail on the pod and I recommend you listen, but essentially he argues we should think of players in terms their appropriate offensive and defensive role/rank on a good team. So, instead of just arguing that AD isn't good enough to be THE GUY on this hypothetical team, you frame it as on a contending team his appropriate level is #2 offensive option and #1 defender. This captures the fact that he's not an offense onto himself, but can anchor your defense.
   3908. aberg Posted: October 20, 2020 at 04:58 PM (#5984091)
The latest Thinking Basketball pod took an approach to discussing players that I really loved. Ben Taylor goes into it on more detail on the pod and I recommend you listen, but essentially he argues we should think of players in terms their appropriate offensive and defensive role/rank on a good team. So, instead of just arguing that AD isn't good enough to be THE GUY on this hypothetical team, you frame it as on a contending team his appropriate level is #2 offensive option and #1 defender. This captures the fact that he's not an offense onto himself, but can anchor your defense.


Do they cover moral hazard? Like, for a tanking team, Wiggins is a great #1 offensive and #1 defensive option.
   3909. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 20, 2020 at 05:01 PM (#5984092)
The latest Thinking Basketball pod took an approach to discussing players that I really loved. Ben Taylor goes into it on more detail on the pod and I recommend you listen, but essentially he argues we should think of players in terms their appropriate offensive and defensive role/rank on a good team. So, instead of just arguing that AD isn't good enough to be THE GUY on this hypothetical team, you frame it as on a contending team his appropriate level is #2 offensive option and #1 defender. This captures the fact that he's not an offense onto himself, but can anchor your defense.

embiid -- #2 // #1
butler -- #2 // #2
simmons -- #3 // #1
tharris -- #4 // #5
horford -- #4 // #2

   3910. smileyy Posted: October 20, 2020 at 10:05 PM (#5984146)
Going back to the next _________ I remember when all you needed to be the next Michael Jordan was: (1) being 6'6", (2) being able to jump high, and (3) having a shaved head. Thus, Harold Miner.
   3911. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 21, 2020 at 12:04 AM (#5984194)
The most shocking thing about the whole Harold Minor thing wasn't just that he was a bust, but that he was a shockingly complete and total bust. For such a prolific scorer in college, it was like he never dribbled a ball before. Four years and done.
   3912. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: October 21, 2020 at 08:22 AM (#5984207)
Harold Minor was drafted 12th overall. Did people really think he was going to be a really great player?
   3913. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:14 AM (#5984228)
As I remember it, he was really polarizing and some people really did think he was going to be a star. I wasn't a fan? but looking back he had some poor man's DeMar DeRozan qualities (both USC for one) and could've had a much better career, sans injuries.
   3914. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:22 AM (#5984253)
The people were extremely swayed by dunk contests in those years. It was a weird time!
   3915. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM (#5984254)
Also, and it's important to remember, Miner could really jump, and was bald, and occasionally stuck his tongue out. So, you know.
   3916. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2020 at 01:56 PM (#5984296)
Miner is a good example in how college athleticism stats like steals and blocks are good predictors of future success. Despite being able to jump high, it never translated in game.
   3917. spivey Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:13 PM (#5984300)
It's interesting how Miner looked like a great shooter his freshman year in college, then progressively got worse both at shooting and passing, and by the NBA took essentially no 3s. It'd be interesting to see how his offensive game would develop today. When you combine his athleticism with his freshman line in college, it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to dream on that kind of player. I was 5 at the time, and don't really remember him until the NBA dunk hype.
   3918. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:17 PM (#5984303)
SVG to Pelicans! As a neutral fan, I love this hire and can't wait to see what happens.
   3919. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:36 PM (#5984309)
It's remarkable the extent to which SVG's (legitimately great) stint as an announcer influenced how fans thought about him.

I think he's a great fit for the Pelicans, but I think Zion is a center, so I want SVG to put Zion in the Dwight/Shaq role and surround him with shooters.

Edit: This might mean D'Antoni is out of luck on the coaching carousel. Only open spot left is OKC.
   3920. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:49 PM (#5984316)
I think by the NBA law of White Guy Conservation this means that D'Antoni has to become a broadcaster.
   3921. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5984318)
Edit: This might mean D'Antoni is out of luck on the coaching carousel. Only open spot left is OKC.

Wow, had totally lost track of this. I wonder what happened with the Pacers links?
   3922. spivey Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:20 PM (#5984327)
There are worse places to land than OKC if you don't mind a rebuild. I think they have a very good chance of being very good in 3-4 years. Probably have more assets than any other team in the NBA, and it would probably give D'Antoni extra reason to root for Houston's failure.

Sitting out a year isn't a bad option either, for any of these coaches. I imagine Nate McMillan should be in line for another job soon as well.
   3923. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5984328)
Well, the difference is that D'Antoni is pretty old. He'll be 70 next season. Pop is the oldest coach in the NBA at 72. No 70 year old has ever been hired as HC.

Edit: he's like 10 years older than Jeff Van Gundy, for instance.
   3924. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:47 PM (#5984332)
This might mean D'Antoni is out of luck on the coaching carousel. Only open spot left is OKC.

The Rockets don't have a coach yet. Maybe with Morey gone...
   3925. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:53 PM (#5984334)
hopefully houston hires jim boylan. he seems like a fertitta kind of guy, and he should have an interesting synergy with james harden.
   3926. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:53 PM (#5984336)
D'Antoni always made sense to me in Indy _if_ they were willing to pay a lot - and I wasn't sure that they would.

Does Houston seem ripe to go cheap by that thinking?
   3927. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:07 PM (#5984341)
I would bet about $100 that whoever Houston hires will be the cheapest head coach in the NBA.

Allegedly the current cheapest (who is not named) makes about 2mm.
   3928. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:23 PM (#5984346)
Nothing cheaper than someone already under contract and everything runs through the guy anyway...time for player-coach James Harden!
   3929. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:31 PM (#5984347)
I think he's a great fit for the Pelicans, but I think Zion is a center, so I want SVG to put Zion in the Dwight/Shaq role and surround him with shooters.


This is what I want also, but I'm not sure it will be what happens. As a coach, the 3PA rates of his Detroit teams are sort of curious: 10th and 11th his first two years then near the bottom his last two (and the Blake trade was midway through the last year, so that's not all it is). I'm not sure how much personnel input he is going to have in NO, but his Detroit record is obviously checkered there also.

Sometimes the pioneers are passed by. We'll see.

MDA: If I were him, I would ride off into the sunset (or as mentioned above a broadcasting job).
   3930. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:35 PM (#5984350)
Allegedly the current cheapest (who is not named) makes about 2mm.

Bolyen was making less than that.

I'm not sure how much personnel input he is going to have in NO, but his Detroit record is obviously checkered there also.

Supposedly not any more than a normal coach. He is just the coach with no personnel responsibilities. Which makes me a little more optimistic about this hire.
   3931. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:49 PM (#5984359)
It seems like the obvious, public failure of both SVG in Detroit and Doc Rivers in LA at managing their own rosters has, at least for now, tempered the appetite of coaches to get roster control and/or of teams to be willing to give it to them. I think the emergence of the current generation of NBA coaches (Nurse, Stevens, Spoelstra post-LeBron) who are praised for their schemes and tactical smarts is also likely part of this. It seemed to me that part of the reason those coaches wanted that power was that it happened during the years where Pop was being held up as the NBA coach par excellence. Obviously Pop is still great, but a touch less invincible after the last few Spurs years, and other coaches' stock has risen without any roster control, and without prior NBA coaching success, making marquee coaches a bit less do-or-die as hires for a team.
   3932. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 21, 2020 at 05:05 PM (#5984370)
Thibs in Minnesota, too.
   3933. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 05:34 PM (#5984374)
MDA: If I were him, I would ride off into the sunset (or as mentioned above a broadcasting job).
wouldn't mind seeing MDA at penn state, now that they finally dumped the abusive underachiever they inexplicably kept around for nearly a decade.
   3934. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 21, 2020 at 05:38 PM (#5984377)
I think SVG is probably closer to average than he is good (which is not a knock! - it's not like there's a lot of these gigs to go around and approaches age fast in this league), but I do consider him an upgrade in NO and approve of the hire. (If you want to argue for taking risks and going after new coaches in hopes a finding a stud, I wouldn't argue, but would personally go after a vet here given how much young talent they have.)
   3935. NJ in NJ Posted: October 21, 2020 at 05:49 PM (#5984379)
It seemed to me that part of the reason those coaches wanted that power was that it happened during the years where Pop was being held up as the NBA coach par excellence.

SVG has been very open in his appearances with the Lebatard crew that part of the motivation there was job security/not having to answer to someone else's personnel moves. I would suspect it's the same for others.
   3936. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 21, 2020 at 06:17 PM (#5984387)
Ah, that makes sense. I'd be curious if the failures of the approach has caused coaches to back off from that desire, or if teams just aren't willing to give it to them any more.
   3937. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2020 at 06:34 PM (#5984390)
Ah, that makes sense. I'd be curious if the failures of the approach has caused coaches to back off from that desire, or if teams just aren't willing to give it to them any more.


The latter, is my understanding, plus fewer "star" FA coaches.

"Spo/Stevens/Kerr doesn't even get that, why would we do it for you?"
   3938. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 21, 2020 at 06:53 PM (#5984391)
The two jobs are just so different that I can’t see any competent ownership group allowing them to be subsumed.
   3939. spivey Posted: October 21, 2020 at 08:13 PM (#5984398)
I'm not sure what to think of SVG. He was great in Orlando. That was a long time ago, and a different era of basketball. I'm more wait and see.
   3940. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 08:39 PM (#5984400)
I'm not sure what to think of SVG. He was great in Orlando. That was a long time ago, and a different era of basketball. I'm more wait and see.

i would not have been optimistic if he was hired by the sixers.

i don't see any reason to be more optimistic about him being hired by the pelicans.


he seems like someone who was ahead of the game for a while, then the game evolved, and now, he doesn't really seem likely to be able to get back on the leading edge. to be fair, i thought the same thing about andy reid when the eagles fired him, but he just needed a change of scenery after a decade in philly. SVG has already had that change in scenery, and it didn't help, so it seems unlikely that this will be significantly different.
   3941. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 08:53 PM (#5984405)
tyrell terry, PG, stanford:

he's amphibious.
his dribble isn't tight, but it's solid.
burst is fringe-solid.
finishing is okay.
shooting form is inconsistent, but there are times when it looks really good.
his pnr game is really strong.
very good at spotting up.
he might profile best next to a primary wing initiator.
he looks like a teenager.


the game is opening up, but i'm still not a fan of guys like this. there's something to his game, but he doesn't have the attributes that i prioritize.


rank:
lottery -> lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted ->
   3942. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:03 PM (#5984407)
killian hayes, foreign

i already looked at hayes, since i don't remember most of what i said, i'll do it again.

he's rugged.
his game would not be out of place on the heat or the celtics, now or in the 90s.
a good lefty dribble
vision is good.
burst is above average.
size is strong.
reads defenses really well.
has iso-ability.
has pnr ability.
disruptive hands

reminds me of jrue holiday, but with more flash. i'm a huge fan.


lottery -> hayes, lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted ->
   3943. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:14 PM (#5984408)
tyrese haliburton, iowa state.

another guy i looked at previously.

very herky-jerky movement style. start and stop.
wirey body.
very quick feet.
odd, but compact, shooting form.
more of a glider/leaper than a jumper.
good passer
not a primary initiator.
not an iso scorer.
shooting form reminds me of tayshaun prince.


i'm a fan. he's going to be an above-average starter for the next decade. his upside is high, but not in a traditional box-score sense. he might score 20+ PPG at his peak, but most of his upside is outside of that.


lottery -> hayes, haliburton, lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted ->
   3944. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:18 PM (#5984410)
immanuel quickley, kentucky

he's too heavy. too much upper body muscle.
the burst isn't there.
no wiggle.
straight line drives.

i'm just not a fan.


lottery -> hayes, haliburton, lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted -> quickley
   3945. asinwreck Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:21 PM (#5984411)
John Lucas is supposedly the front-runner for the Houston job. The last time he was a head coach in the NBA was for the 2002-2003 Cavaliers. Cavs fans should be eternally grateful for his work that season securing the #1 pick used on a high-school player out of Akron.
   3946. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:23 PM (#5984412)
tyrese maxey, kentucky

has some burst.
fringe-questionable wiggle.
offensive instincts do not seem very developed.
he's basic.
i'm not a fan.


lottery -> hayes, haliburton, lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted -> maxey, quickley
   3947. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:31 PM (#5984417)
nico mannion, arizona

meh.
can he create his own shot off the dribble? probably not, but maybe.
not a primary initiator.
passing instincts are fringe
ballhandling is fringe
wiggle is fringe
burst is fringe
nothing says "future NBA all-star" quite like a buzzer beating layup vs. pepperdine.

i'm not a fan here, either.

lottery -> hayes, haliburton, lewis
1st round -> terry
2nd round -> anthony
undrafted -> mannion, maxey, quickley
   3948. Paul D(uda) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:22 PM (#5984450)
Raptors are apparently exploring playing in Kentucky next year.

Is the old Nets arena still standing? (Meadowlands?)
   3949. Howie Menckel Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:37 PM (#5984455)
Meadowlands arena is still standing.

but a non-compete deal was cut politically about 5-6 years ago, so that the decomposing shell cannot reopen to compete with anything that the Prudential Center in Newark would want.

the Nets played at the latter for two seasons before the Barclays Center opened in Brooklyn.

Pru Center was built for basketball as well as hockey, as opposed to the Brooklyn arena which ultimately was not built for hockey yet the Islanders played there for a time anyway (center-ice scoreboard hanging over one of the blue lines being just one of many monstrosities).

the Nets lnfamously had tickets for their first-ever regular-season game in Newark selling for about 50 cents on the secondary market.

there must be better alternatives for the Raptors.
   3950. Paul d mobile Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:03 AM (#5984493)
I thought new Jersey might make sense due to proximity to other teams. Seattle only makes sense if they can play their home games at 4:30 local time... although even then, there would be too much travel.
   3951. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:38 AM (#5984501)
i haven't read any of the louisville pieces yet but - doesn't the deal there w/ uol preclude an nba team?
   3952. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:57 AM (#5984505)
What are the odds Gobert gets traded? He'll be an unrestricted free agent in a year, and I don't see the Jazz being excited with the prospect of either paying him $30M+ per year or losing him for nothing. I think their experience with Gonzo Haymaker and the issues between Gobert and Donovan Mitchell make it somewhat likely the Jazz will shop him around. Mitchell is certainly their top priority.

As for a trade partner, how about the Knicks? Thibs loves veterans who can defend, and the Knicks want to make a splash and gain some credibility.

Something like Gobert and Ed Davis for the 8th pick, Mitchell Robinson, and Julius Randle would allow Utah to stay competitive, save some money, and build around Donovan. I might actually like the 8th pick in this draft more than the 1st pick, considering that the 8th pick's salary is a shade under half that of the 1st pick. The top 8-10 looks as flat as can be, and the guys towards the lower end of that range according to the mocks seem safer bets to become at least solid rotation players (comparing Hayes, Halliburton, Okongwu, Okoro, and Vassell to LaMelo, Wiseman, Edwards, and Avdija).
   3953. puck Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:23 AM (#5984509)
Huh, I used to type bb-ref.com to get to baseball-reference, now it goes to basketball-reference.
   3954. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:26 AM (#5984510)
(deleted)
   3955. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:35 AM (#5984518)
(double post, both deleted)
   3956. jmurph Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:58 AM (#5984528)
Honestly I expect Utah to just keep Gobert and pay him. Something less than what he's eligible for. They don't seem to be in the business of letting guys walk if they can help it?

Unless Mitchell wants him out.
   3957. spivey Posted: October 22, 2020 at 12:39 PM (#5984571)
I agree Utah will/should just pay him, unless Mitchell wants him gone.

Gobert has had some bad playoff series, but he's still a force in the regular season, and I don't see how cashing him in for spare parts makes the team better.
   3958. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 22, 2020 at 12:55 PM (#5984574)
John Lucas is supposedly the front-runner for the Houston job. The last time he was a head coach in the NBA was for the 2002-2003 Cavaliers. Cavs fans should be eternally grateful for his work that season securing the #1 pick used on a high-school player out of Akron.

I could have sworn you were wrong and meant his son, JL3, who I thought was a future head coach candidate. Are the Rockets just using him as leverage to get JVG's price tag down?
   3959. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 01:05 PM (#5984575)
The elder Lucas supposedly has good relationships with many of the current players. Also, I bet he'd be cheap.
   3960. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 22, 2020 at 02:50 PM (#5984589)
Ball Arena?!?!?
   3961. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5984593)
Apparently named after the company that used to make mason jars
   3962. tshipman Posted: October 22, 2020 at 03:23 PM (#5984594)
Can we just call it the Ball Don't Lie arena?
   3963. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 05:20 PM (#5984614)
Apparently named after the company that used to make mason jars
what do you mean, "used to"?
   3964. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 05:22 PM (#5984616)
i wouldn't say i'm surprised, but i'd think pittsburgh would also be a reasonable relocation target for toronto. also, buffalo. maybe hartford.
   3965. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 05:29 PM (#5984619)
“Ball no longer manufactures the ubiquitous canning jars, but we've expanded and grown into a worldwide metal packaging company that makes billions of recyclable metal containers, and a unique aerospace business that designs one-of-a-kind solutions to answer scientific and technical challenges.”
(From their website)
   3966. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 22, 2020 at 05:45 PM (#5984624)
we've expanded and grown into a worldwide metal packaging company that makes billions of recyclable metal containers,


So they've become an international arms dealer making cartridges, I guess.
   3967. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 05:50 PM (#5984626)
“Ball no longer manufactures the ubiquitous canning jars, but we've expanded and grown into a worldwide metal packaging company that makes billions of recyclable metal containers, and a unique aerospace business that designs one-of-a-kind solutions to answer scientific and technical challenges.”
(From their website)
counterpoint.
   3968. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 22, 2020 at 06:25 PM (#5984632)
i didn't say the brand was dead. (they sold it to a company named newell brands. none of this is anything i cared to know.)
   3969. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 22, 2020 at 06:38 PM (#5984634)
Pittsburgh would be awesome.
   3970. aberg Posted: October 22, 2020 at 07:32 PM (#5984642)
Simmons was on Lowe's podcast this week and floated a trade built around Gobert for the #1 pick. I didn't particularly like that for either team.
   3971. Howie Menckel Posted: October 22, 2020 at 07:51 PM (#5984645)
so this time, Pittsburgh would be saving - a dinosaur.

that's a nice plot twist for a sequel right there.
   3972. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:03 PM (#5984647)
Simmons was on Lowe's podcast this week and floated a trade built around Gobert for the #1 pick. I didn't particularly like that for either team.

Yeah, no.
   3973. Tin Angel Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:45 PM (#5984655)
Simmons was on Lowe's podcast this week and floated a trade built around Gobert for the #1 pick. I didn't particularly like that for either team.


He was so incredibly annoying from now on I'm going to skip any episode he's on. "Hey, Zach, let me interrupt...I have a trade idea that neither team will like! Want to hear it?" Then he went on the whole tirade about how the Lakers titles in Minneapolis don't count since they haven't retired George Mikan's number.
   3974. tshipman Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:50 PM (#5984657)
That's a weird terrible trade because:

1. Gobert on a max isn't worth the #1 overall pick
2. The #1 overall pick is terrible value this year
   3975. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:20 PM (#5984662)
MIN should draft lamelo ball.

they won't.
   3976. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:30 PM (#5984663)
guess the player comparisons, via the ringer:



player A: "SHADES OF: Victor Oladipo, Eric Gordon, Dion Waiters"
player B: "SHADES OF: Mild-mannered Rasheed Wallace, high-energy Hassan Whiteside"
player C: "SHADES OF: Danilo Gallinari, P.J. Tucker"
player D: "SHADES OF: Detlef Schrempf, Lamar Odom, Dragan Bender"
player E: "SHADES OF: Joe Ingles, Evan Turner"
player F: "SHADES OF: DeMarcus Cousins on the Warriors, Jared Sullinger"
   3977. JJ1986 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:34 PM (#5984664)
"SHADES OF: Danilo Gallinari, P.J. Tucker"

Whaaaaaaaaat?
   3978. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:44 PM (#5984665)
Whaaaaaaaaat?
i know, right.

MINUSES
- Still developing as a spot-up shooter. He had to improve his form in high school to become a good free throw shooter (84 percent), but still struggles off the catch with a low, slow release.
- He totaled nearly double the number of turnovers (50) as he did assists (29). Despite a knack for playmaking, he got called for countless travels due to raw footwork and forced drives into traffic.
- Stiff man-to-man defender without the versatility to reliably switch onto guards and wings. He’s clunky moving laterally and changing directions, so he gets burned regularly



maybe they meant something like "pj tucker on offense; danilo gallinari on defense"
   3979. tshipman Posted: October 22, 2020 at 11:07 PM (#5984673)
The Ringer's draft coverage is about as valuable as Stiggles's.
   3980. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2020 at 11:15 PM (#5984674)
The Ringer's draft coverage is about as valuable as Stiggles's.
don't be an #######.
   3981. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 23, 2020 at 12:35 AM (#5984680)
Then he went on the whole tirade about how the Lakers titles in Minneapolis don't count since they haven't retired George Mikan's number.
He's so salty. It's wonderful. Since the Lakers moved to Los Angeles, they've got 12 rings to Boston's 7.

I'll take 57i66135 over Simmons 18 days a weeks.
   3982. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2020 at 09:33 AM (#5984699)
I feel like The Ringer has solid draft coverage, but I say that as someone who knows literally nothing about college or international players every year, so it's possible I'm being fooled.
   3983. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2020 at 09:34 AM (#5984700)
Seth Partnow at The Athletic has finished ranking the top 125 players in the league, sorted into tiers. It's good, subscription obviously required. Lots to argue about.
   3984. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2020 at 09:40 AM (#5984701)
An initial thought I have looking through these is it doesn't take very long to get to guys who, if they're your best player, you're not even making the playoffs. There are guys that fit that description as high as Tier 3A, which is (if I'm counting correctly) the 17th-28th best players in the league.

Now the giant caveat is of course fit/supporting cast, a point that was driven home multiple times in the most recent playoffs.
   3985. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2020 at 09:42 AM (#5984702)
Since the Lakers moved to Los Angeles, they've got 12 rings to Boston's 7.

Yeah no one actually believes the Minneapolis doesn't count! nonsense, it's a bad faith argument. It's pretty obvious who the dominant team in the league has been for the past several decades post-Russell.
   3986. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 23, 2020 at 11:09 AM (#5984713)
I'll take 57i66135 over Simmons 18 days a weeks.

That's faint praise, but seconded.
   3987. NJ in NJ Posted: October 23, 2020 at 11:16 AM (#5984714)
For the 438th time...I love 57i66135 draft coverage and feel it consistently gives me lots to ponder at draft time. I especially love his guard breakdowns.
   3988. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 23, 2020 at 11:25 AM (#5984717)
i like the stiggles draft stuff as well. comes at it from a different angle than i tend to, which helps.
   3989. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2020 at 11:33 AM (#5984723)
Same.
   3990. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 23, 2020 at 11:40 AM (#5984724)
“Ball no longer manufactures the ubiquitous canning jars, but we've expanded and grown into a worldwide metal packaging company that makes billions of recyclable metal containers, and a unique aerospace business that designs one-of-a-kind solutions to answer scientific and technical challenges.”

Made me think of this classic tweet:
Stev D @Stev_D ·Oct 21, 2014

We're a modest company with modest goals:
1: sell a quality product at a fair price
2: drain the world's oceans so we can find and kill god
   3991. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 23, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5984740)
that guy who got the tucker/galinari comp seems to be rising on boards (fsu's patrick williams) to the point where the consensus is that he'll go in the lottery - thinking is that he's got the tools to be a multipositional defender (2-5, normally 3-4) who can grow into being a pretty good offensive player as well.
i have never seen him play well (sss).

i haven't gotten to do any kind of dive yet into the draft but:
i like hayes too. wish he had a right hand and a better outside shot.
wonder how much more people would like haliburton had he been healthy all last year. biggest issue i have with him might be his handle. it could be enough push him off the one which lessens his value considerably.
see both of those as lotto guys, though.
   3992. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 23, 2020 at 02:57 PM (#5984753)
player B: "SHADES OF: Mild-mannered Rasheed Wallace, high-energy Hassan Whiteside"


Is that Obi Toppin?

Per Shams: the NBA proposes a 72-game season starting 12/22. The Player's Association needs to agree. That seems awfully soon.
   3993. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5984755)
December 22 seems crazy soon to start, but maybe there will be extra time baked in to do make-up games? I don't know if players would prefer that or not.
   3994. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:07 PM (#5984756)
Florida State had a really good team last year. I think they could have been a championship contender, and their strength was an active defense. Both Vassell and Williams have pretty good rebounding/block/steal numbers for wing players.
   3995. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5984757)
Per Shams: the NBA proposes a 72-game season starting 12/22. The Player's Association needs to agree. That seems awfully soon.
December 22 seems crazy soon to start, but maybe there will be extra time baked in to do make-up games? I don't know if players would prefer that or not.
it's not.

half of NBA teams have played fewer than a dozen games since march. december will be 8 months from the stoppage, and a typical offseason is only 6.

even teams like the lakers and heat will have two full months off, after a four month break earlier this year.


the timing is fine, imo.
   3996. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5984758)
Is that Obi Toppin?
it is not. it's wiseman.

toppin's comparables (via the ringer) are "SHADES OF: Amar'e Stoudemire, Kyle Kuzma, Bouncy Marcus Morris"
For the 438th time...I love 57i66135 draft coverage and feel it consistently gives me lots to ponder at draft time. I especially love his guard breakdowns.
i like the stiggles draft stuff as well. comes at it from a different angle than i tend to, which helps.
Same.
much appreciated.
   3997. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5984759)
i like the stiggles draft stuff as well. comes at it from a different angle than i tend to, which helps.

Yeah, I find it really entertaining.
   3998. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:22 PM (#5984760)
Florida State had a really good team last year. I think they could have been a championship contender, and their strength was an active defense. Both Vassell and Williams have pretty good rebounding/block/steal numbers for wing players.
florida state always seems like fools gold. they never have enough offense, and because of their zone defense, they're prone to being shot out of the tournament. they're basically a poor-man's syracuse.
   3999. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:23 PM (#5984761)
MIN should draft lamelo ball.


Because of his fit, or his overall value as a trade piece?
   4000. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: October 23, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5984762)
shams says amare to join the nets as an asst coach
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