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Wednesday, April 08, 2020

OT – NBA CoronaThread 2020

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and hopefully all of them survive these next few weeks.

BBTF Corona Draft Tournament Voting Page

BBTF Corona Tournament Brackets

BBTF Corona Draft and Rosters Page

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 08, 2020 at 04:54 AM | 3143 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off-topic

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   2901. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2020 at 08:13 PM (#5952517)
This should be a fun series given how Tship has trash talked Barry's shooting ability. You know he is going to leave the ####### open from behind the line and dare him to shoot it. How'd you like them apples?!?


This is actually how Pippen played a lot of guys. He would sag off his man and then rely on his wingspan to contest the shot.
   2902. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 20, 2020 at 09:00 PM (#5952532)
It's clearly what Hombre meant
Clearly.
All told, I have this as a close matchup without adjustments: I project this as a 121 to 120 game result.
So if TShip's analysis is 100000% right, he squeaks out a 1-point win? I like it. I'm comfortable with the idea that I might have gotten one or two things right as well, and those one or two things are worth at least one basket.
This should be a fun series given how Tship has trash talked Barry's shooting ability.
If Barry's range is good enough for Hollinger, it's good enough to play in this league. Another something I'm totally fine with.
   2903. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2020 at 09:45 PM (#5952539)
So if TShip's analysis is 100000% right, he squeaks out a 1-point win? I like it. I'm comfortable with the idea that I might have gotten one or two things right as well, and those one or two things are worth at least one basket.


The model results are before you make any adjustments for defense or playstyle or matchups. It's just a representation of who the players were and how they played. It's a framework for applying judgment.

So like, if I read someone's write-up, and think, oh, that strategy is crazy, it would make player x shoot 10% worse over a 7 game series, then you would plug that in and see the results.

So like if you think Rick Barry is actually a 35% 3p shooter, and is going to take 5 per game, you can see how much that moves the needle (spoiler alert: almost not at all--about 0.03 in the average score difference).

This is one of the reasons I think it's very valuable to have a model. In one of the recent matchups, I thought Slivers had a good point about Shaq being able to dominate the matchup. So I upped Shaq's FG attempts from 19 per game to 30 per game, and kept his crazy high efficiency. It made the matchup closer, but still had DCA as a winner.
   2904. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 21, 2020 at 01:44 AM (#5952559)
#9 WINTER'S NIGHT 10, #4 NJ 9 (removing self votes)
Winter's Night remains in one-loss bracket; NJ falls into two-loss bracket.

In the first one-vote match of the tournament, voters mostly agreed on two things: this game came down to who wins the perimeter battle, and it was going to be pretty high-scoring. However, people were nearly evenly split on who would win that perimeter battle -- opinions were all over the place from a clear win for one side or the other to a very close hard to pick matchup. In the end, Durant and Winter's Night edged it out against his future teammate Curry and NJ. Some choice quotes from...

Winter's Night voters' thoughts:
<<Another matchup that nobody seems to want to win... I think NJ is giving too much run to below-average players and Winter is too deep for that. >>
<< I think this is another series where Dwight's defensive impact is blunted by the opponent's outside shooting prowess. >>
<< If we say Curry/Miller are roughly offset by Durant/McGrady, which feels right to me, then Manu/Baylor/Webber/Gasol look substantially stronger to me than Howard/Bosh/Deng/Iguo. >>
<< Ultimately, I trust Durant/Ginobili to make big plays down the stretch in a tightly contested series than I do Steph. I just think Winter's is a little more versatile offensively. >>
<< The key in my mind is the matchups between KD, McGrady, and Manu versus Steph, Reggie, and Iguodala. And to my way of thinking, Winter's Night wins those matchups as a whole. >>

NJ voters' thoughts:
<< I think it's bombs away for Curry and Reggie and 3 > 2 in an entertaining high-scoring game where nobody can really get stops against the other team. >>
<< I predict Steph and Reggie rain 3-pt death in this series. >>
<< If you love high scoring terrific wing & guard play then this is the match-up for you. Steph and Reggie put on a show and NJ has just enough defense to hold off the amazing duo of Durant and McGrady. >>
<< I think [NJ] has a slightly better chance of slowing Durant/McGrady than winter's does for Curry. >>
<< Just looking at Winter's roster, it doesn't strike me as one that's going to be able to shut down the shooting from NJ. I don't see anyone that's going to be able to guard Curry very well, nor do I see anyone that wants to chase Reggie. >>
<< NJ's team is significantly more efficient from 2 and from 3, and that seems likely to make the difference. >>

NEXT UP: #7 Shipman vs #11 Hombre in the one-loss bracket, votes due Friday 5/22 at noon ET.
   2905. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 21, 2020 at 02:44 AM (#5952561)
Next week's games will be rough: three elimination games.
   2906. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 21, 2020 at 03:18 AM (#5952563)
POWER RANKINGS AFTER 15 GAMES

So far nothing intransitive is going on, meaning we can split the 14 teams into tiers. The top tier is defined to be the undefeated teams and each subsequent tier consists of all the teams who have only lost to the teams in the tiers above them.

Tier 1: JJ, Willard, Lange, Harlond
Tier 2: WN, Hombre, DCA, JT
Tier 3: BO, Slivers, NJ, Shipman
Tier 4: Lucky, Stiggles
   2907. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 09:46 AM (#5952589)
A few things that I didn't agree with in the voting:

1. Dwight is an extremely versatile defender and can absolutely come out on the perimeter on switches or doubles and have a sizable impact. He's not limited to just mucking things up in the paint
2. Manu absolutely cannot handle that minutes load
3. Andre Iguodala is absolutely an elite defender and that was something he could do from a very early stage
   2908. Scott Lange Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM (#5952600)
Manu absolutely cannot handle that minutes load

You're right about that. Or, at least, I intend to penalize players with limited durability/minutes, though I forgot to do it in this matchup. (I don't think it was mentioned in the writeups, but apologies if I missed it.)

Hombre put an artificial minutes cap of 36 in place after the draft. That makes sense on one level, but if you combine it with the idea that "part-time players like Manu and Walton are limited to around their actual MPG" then you erase the very real and important difference between compiling such-and-such stats over 2264 minutes (Walton '77) or 2299 minutes (Manu '08) versus 3689 minutes (Wilt '64) or 3234 minutes (Garnett '04). It's another example of the incredible volume of variables that are difficult/impossible to account for in this exercise. But we should all try our best!
   2909. spivey Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:47 AM (#5952602)
I agree with 2907 on Manu. Even in his prime he was averaging ~33 min/game in the playoffs.

And Manu is one of my favorite players in NBA history. But he wasn't a PG, really. He played 5% of his minutes that season as a PG, and has very little PG minutes in his career. He was also loose with the ball. Even more than Curry. He had the same TOV/100 numbers that year as Curry did in 15-16, and I would argue Curry was taking on way more offensive responsibility in doing so. Ginobili's on/off turnover numbers aren't good, the team committed a fair bit fewer without him.

He still had a monster season, but I think you're going to see some 8 turnover games if you're asking him to play 36 minutes at PG in this league.
   2910. DCA Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:48 AM (#5952604)
Scott -

I don't understand how limiting Manu's minutes below 36 (since he was a 30 per game kind of guy IRL) "erases the very real and important difference" between Manu/Walton and Wilt/Garnett/most guys.

It seems to me that limiting Manu to 30 would be critical to NOT erasing that difference.

In winter's case, he had McGrady playing only 30 minutes so it was easy to transfer 6 minutes from Manu (who can only play ~30) to McGrady (who could absolutely handle 36).

EDIT: winter did not provide a minutes breakdown in his writeup, but did in this thread when asked, for guards only (post 2855).

EDIT2: tship is playing Hombre until tomorrow noon, and credit to him for limiting Walton (65/82 games @35 per game) to 30 minutes.
   2911. Scott Lange Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:03 AM (#5952608)
Sorry if I was unclear - I'm trying to say that limiting them to their actual MPG isn't harsh enough. If you arbitrarily cap the workhorses below their real MPG, you need to do the same to the Manu-types. And you also need to penalize people who are out of the lineup vs people who play close to 82 games. Like, if Wilt is limited to 36 minutes/game (~1.0% of his real season total), then doing the same to Manu and Walton puts them at 23 MPG, which seems fair to me.

I wouldn't have any artificial caps, but as long as we have an effective 1% of total-minutes cap for the workhorses, we should treat the part-time guys similarly. For me, that means reducing the efficiency/effectiveness of people who stretch a Manu/Walton type to 30 or 36 minutes played. Or I suppose you could increase the efficiency of the capped workhorses, which would have the same effect.
   2912. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:22 AM (#5952616)
I understand what Scott is saying, but at some point that leads to drafting players that can give you minutes rather than for any particular talents when they are on the court, which seems to me to run counter to the spirit of the exercise. We are explicitly drafting players not for a career, not (really) for a season's worth of games, but for a series of best-of-7 matchups, which alters the equation a bit.

In my Replay shadow tournament, I am allowing players their historical injury ratings, which cover all missed time, so Walton and Manu are more likely to have to leave a game due to injury than someone like Wilt. It seemed a good compromise.
   2913. DCA Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:52 AM (#5952627)
Scott -

I get it. I agree to some degree, but not to the same degree as you, I think. Most of the minutes issues are timeline-related, I think.

Guys play fewer minutes now, because the game is played at a much higher level, and load management is a thing. So I look at the 36 minute cap as a way of placing this competition in 2020 land (just as we are playing with a 16 foot lane and a 3 point line).

I do think it's reasonable to give a small bump in efficiency/quality to guys who were way above typical-all-star-level-usage in their own time (Wilt counts, Garnett at 40/game probably doesn't) playing the max 36, or to guys playing more limited roles than in real life (e.g. Garnett at 30 per game, or a primary scorer asked to be a side piece).

I also don't worry about whether a guy plays 82 or 80 or 75 games (less than that, it starts to be an issue).

Slivers -

I think that's the point. Minutes have value. Easier to put up elite stats in 2000 minutes than 3000 minutes.
   2914. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2020 at 12:02 PM (#5952631)
Walton and Manu are not the same.

Walton played 40 MPG in the playoffs and played 19 games. He was injured during his season, so I pro-rated his minutes accordingly and keep him at a ceiling of 30.

Manu has never played more than 35 mpg *in the playoffs*, and never averaged more than 31 during the regular season.

Walton had injury problems that limited his season, but Manu had his minutes spotted and limited, even in his prime.
   2915. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2020 at 12:37 PM (#5952645)
Re: limiting minutes for old timey players.

The challenge is that allowing people to play Wilt 48 minutes doesn't really help your team (except maybe in roster construction). In real life, playing Wilt 48 minutes was amazing because his backup was a truck driver. In this scenario, his backup is an all time great, so the marginal utility of extra minutes from Wilt is really low.

The real guys you hurt are the 80's or 90's guys, particularly the wings. Those guys routinely played 40 minutes (or more in the playoffs) and their upside over their backups is easier to quantify. Playing Michael Jordan 40 minutes and Jerry Sloan 2 minutes is a big deal compared to 36 and 6.
   2916. DCA Posted: May 21, 2020 at 01:19 PM (#5952659)
But you should consider that necessary timelining. Michael Jordan playing today would be a 36 minute guy. In the current season, nobody is above 37 minutes per game (Lillard leads at 36.9) and only three players (Lillard, Harden, Lowry) are higher than 36.1 per game.
   2917. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5952664)
But you should consider that necessary timelining. Michael Jordan playing today would be a 36 minute guy. In the current season, nobody is above 37 minutes per game (Lillard leads at 36.9) and only three players (Lillard, Harden, Lowry) are higher than 36.1 per game.


In the regular season, yeah. It's less clear that it's appropriate for the playoffs, where guys like LeBron routinely still average 40+. Is this tournament more like the playoffs or the regular season?
   2918. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 21, 2020 at 01:37 PM (#5952671)
In 2008, the year I drafted, Manu had playoff games of where he played 36:04, 37:30, 37:42, 39:37, 41:34, and 45:00 minutes. His median was around 33 minutes. He also had 5 games with less than 30 minutes, including 21:11 and 23:25; those games had an average margin of victory of 17.6.

I find the proposition that Manu averaged 30 mpg because he couldn't play longer minutes unconvincing.

EDIT: actually, the median was 32:05, I miscounted. And the Spurs were really boom-or-bust that playoffs: the average margin of victory in all their playoff games was 13.47.
   2919. Thok Posted: May 21, 2020 at 03:34 PM (#5952724)
The last episode of Game of Zones just dropped, for those who are interested. If you are planning to watch the last season of Game of Zones, just be aware that it has very heavy spoilers for the final season of Game of Thrones.
   2920. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2020 at 03:59 PM (#5952743)
In 2008, the year I drafted, Manu had playoff games of where he played 36:04, 37:30, 37:42, 39:37, 41:34, and 45:00 minutes.


You can look at those games here.

Manu averaged 36% shooting (30% from 3), and reduced rebounding relative to his playoff average. That seems problematic if your goal is to stretch him out.
   2921. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 21, 2020 at 04:42 PM (#5952762)
I think Patrick Ewing is closer to Elton Brand than he is to "one of the greatest players of all time." Paul Pierce is ... Pat McCaw. Sure, maybe ...
BBTF search may have stumbled into an interesting point there.
POWER RANKINGS AFTER 15 GAMES

So far nothing intransitive is going on, meaning we can split the 14 teams into tiers. The top tier is defined to be the undefeated teams and each subsequent tier consists of all the teams who have only lost to the teams in the tiers above them.

ier 4: Lucky, Stiggles
i regret nothing.
   2922. Hot Wheeling American Posted: May 21, 2020 at 04:44 PM (#5952763)
Apologies for missing votes on a game or two. I know it needed to be done, but having this no longer be a daily thing makes it easier to lose track of things. Current game seems to be Hombre v. tship. Voting is open until noon EST tomorrow (Friday, 5/22)?
   2923. jmurph Posted: May 21, 2020 at 05:08 PM (#5952767)
Lots of twitter talk of games restarting in mid-July at some point.
   2924. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 21, 2020 at 06:49 PM (#5952790)
Apologies for missing votes on a game or two. I know it needed to be done, but having this no longer be a daily thing makes it easier to lose track of things. Current game seems to be Hombre v. tship. Voting is open until noon EST tomorrow (Friday, 5/22)?
The tournament is here for you, dive in at your convenience. Voting closes at noon EST, on Mondays, Wednesdays, and yes, Fridays.
   2925. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:21 PM (#5952813)
Any guesses what I've laid out below? It started with thinking about the bolded because of a podcast and then I just dug deeper:

1. M. Jordan 8/5/1
2. L. James 13/4/0
3. K. Abdul-Jabbar 16/8/0
4. B. Russell 12/5/0
5. M. Johnson 12/6/0
6. W. Chamberlain 7/4/0
7. L. Bird 12/6/0
8. T. Duncan 19/7/0
9. K. Bryant 13/3/0
10. S. O'Neal 13/3/0
11. O. Robertson 5/3/0
12. H. Olajuwon 6/0/0
13. S. Curry 6/2/1
14. K. Durant 9/2/0
15. J. Erving 12/2/0
16. J. West 7/2/0
17. K. Malone 13/4/0
18. M. Malone 5/2/0
19. D. Nowitzki 12/3/0
20. K. Garnett 8/2/0
   2926. Booey Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:49 PM (#5952817)
Isn't that the top 20 from the new ESPN top 74 players of all time list? Not sure what the numbers are though or why Olajuwon is bolded.
   2927. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:57 PM (#5952819)
Any guesses what I've laid out below? It started with thinking about the bolded because of a podcast and then I just dug deeper:

Looks like 50/60/70-win seasons by the respective teams?

Edit: Although, if so, Curry should be 6/3/1, not 6/2/1.
   2928. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 21, 2020 at 10:59 PM (#5952820)
Any guesses what I've laid out below? It started with thinking about the bolded because of a podcast and then I just dug deeper:

1st/2nd/3rd team all-NBA?
   2929. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:03 PM (#5952822)
Combining a couple responses it's ESPN's All-Time Top 20 with 50+/60+/70+ win season figures. The Thinking Basketball Pod brought up an Hakeem issue I had never really considered, the relative lack of great regular season team performance. I decided to do the most basic digging to see how out of line his regular season team success was compared to other greats. Not a very nuanced analysis, but thought it was interesting.
   2930. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5952824)
I guess I had to be there, but...Moses Malone feels very Boogie Cousins to me. Not just based on the above, but also he's been in a few of the on the loop NBAtv games over the last couple months and he just looks thoroughly unimpressive and feels like a guy that's just putting up empty numbers.
   2931. Booey Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:26 PM (#5952825)
I assume you're pro-rating strike seasons? I ask cuz I notice Malone is listed with 4 60-win seasons but his Jazz only won 60 3 times (1995, 1997, 1998), and his 2004 Lakers only won 57. The Jazz were on pace for 61 in 1999 though (37-13).

Duncan lost 2 60 win seasons due to strikes.

Is a COVID shortened season also pro-rated (only affects LeBron on that list)?
   2932. Booey Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:28 PM (#5952826)
Re: Olajuwon - I actually remember this came up a couple years ago when the Harden/Paul Rockets won 65, and it was pointed out that somehow that was the Rockets first ever 60 win season. Their previous high was 58 in 1994.
   2933. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:45 PM (#5952828)
Correct, Booey. Tried to prorate for 82 games so rounded down some ABA seasons and up some shortened or pre modern era seasons. Also attempted to leave out years where guys played less than ~50 or did not play primary roles. Eyeballed everything quickly so I may have miscounted in a couple spots.
   2934. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2020 at 11:50 PM (#5952829)
I guess I had to be there, but...Moses Malone feels very Boogie Cousins to me. Not just based on the above, but also he's been in a few of the on the loop NBAtv games over the last couple months and he just looks thoroughly unimpressive and feels like a guy that's just putting up empty numbers.


Moses was the consensus best player on a team that nearly swept through the playoffs and won a championship. He has a lot of mediocre years, but that '83 season gets him a lot of credit.
   2935. Scott Lange Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:25 AM (#5952850)
12. H. Olajuwon 6/0/0

Not to be prickly and defensive about the guy I picked first, but this doesn't seem surprising for a guy who was notoriously surrounded by the worst supporting casts of any all-time great. The second-best PER on that 58-win team was Otis Thorpe at 16.1. Third-best was Robert Horry at 14.2. There can't be many players who have led a team to 58 wins with teammates that poor.

Like, LeBron's teammates on his two 60-win teams from his first Cleveland run were famously mediocre, but even he had Ilgauskus (18.0) and Mo Williams (17.2) on the first one and Shaq (17.9), Jamison (16.7), Mo Williams (16.1), Varejao (15.8), and JJ Hickson (15.2) on the second one.
   2936. KronicFatigue Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:29 AM (#5952851)
Very late to the party, but just finished The Last Dance, and I have a question regarding MJ's first retirement. Since he retired because he was mentally and physically exhausted, should there be some penalty for those seasons in terms of stats, GOAT discussion etc. LeBron gets criticized for taking it easy on defense, load management, etc etc. but all those things have kept him on the court. Conversely, MJ gets praised for "wanting to win every game" but doing so burned him out.

When measuring MJ's career, how do people factor in the 1.75 years of 0/0/0?

Also, TLD's timeline jumping format was AWFUL and exsited, IMO only to hide the fact that this wasn't about "The Last Dance" but rather Michael Jordan's career. I enjoyed it for nostalgia purposes (despite living and dying w/ the 90's Knicks), but my wife could not follow it. We had to keep pausing so I could remind her what the situation was. Granted, she has close to zero NBA knowledge but even I found the back and forth jarring and unnecessary.

I've always hated Jordan, but I can now add Pippen's contract to my list of reasons. I feel like he could have done something for that if he wanted to. Pushed management, offered him a ridiculous shoe deal, etc etc. Jordan benefited from Pippen being grossly underpaid, and that's why he didn't do anything. I also feel bad Pippen got mocked for that contract, considering he had lots of reasons to be risk-adverse w/r/t money.

   2937. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:35 AM (#5952854)
Moses Malone has 3 MVPs, a ring as the best player which involved a sweep absolutely steamrolling Kareem (a 35 year old Kareem, but still very impressive), and dragging a sub-.500 with little other talent on it to the NBA Finals. Monster playoff numbers and regular season numbers. I mean, it seems like his value is pretty limited to what we see in the box score, but I think it's extremely disrepectful to him to compare him to Boogie.

I do wonder how his game would play today, but I think offensively he'd still be a force. I think his muscle inside is undeniable, and similar to Shaq, teams would have to adjust to him.
   2938. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:39 AM (#5952855)
Very late to the party, but just finished The Last Dance, and I have a question regarding MJ's first retirement. Since he retired because he was mentally and physically exhausted, should there be some penalty for those seasons in terms of stats, GOAT discussion etc. LeBron gets criticized for taking it easy on defense, load management, etc etc. but all those things have kept him on the court. Conversely, MJ gets praised for "wanting to win every game" but doing so burned him out.

When measuring MJ's career, how do people factor in the 1.75 years of 0/0/0?


I've definitely come around to the idea that if he played those years, they weren't winning 8 in a row, which is something I thought maybe 10 years ago. I also treat them pretty much how they were, there's no extenuating circumstance here to give partial credit. Jordan's GOAT case is peak and playoff performance. Even with these years I think Kareem and LeBron would have better longevity cases, though it'd be closer. Not sure if that exactly answers the question.
   2939. KronicFatigue Posted: May 22, 2020 at 10:28 AM (#5952875)
I've definitely come around to the idea that if he played those years, they weren't winning 8 in a row, which is something I thought maybe 10 years ago. I also treat them pretty much how they were, there's no extenuating circumstance here to give partial credit. Jordan's GOAT case is peak and playoff performance. Even with these years I think Kareem and LeBron would have better longevity cases, though it'd be closer. Not sure if that exactly answers the question.


Thanks. But should Jordan's "peak" resume have an * next to it because it was obtained at the cost of needing to retire early? While LeBron was in his peak, could he have pushed himself harder for all 82 games knowing that he was going to have the next 18 months off? Jordan was sprinting while LeBron has been running a marathon.
   2940. DCA Posted: May 22, 2020 at 10:46 AM (#5952883)
If taking 1.75 years off is the cost of winning 6 championships in 8 years, more all-time greats should pay it.

It seems obvious how to credit Jordan for the missed time: nothing. This isn't a war credit type case. There's no out-of-his-control what-if to consider.
   2941. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5952885)
Jordan also had at least 3 "prime" years where he didn't win a title. Sometimes I think some of that gets swept under the rug for the 6 in 8 rings narrative, but I don't think it should be. But it also means to me that I don't think that he could only run at max capacity for 3 year stretches.

I'm inclined to think it really was either some combination of love of baseball or just wanting a new challenge. It's weird to think about now, and this wasn't really addressed in The Last Dance, but the multi-pro sport athlete was a real thing back then.
   2942. tshipman Posted: May 22, 2020 at 10:55 AM (#5952886)
As the talk of coming back gets more serious, I'd expect to see more pieces like this one:

Ingles, a key member of the Utah Jazz who sit in fourth place in the Western Conference, has said he is prepared to "walk away, fly to Australia and never play another game in my life and be very content with it" to protect his family from the virus.

His wife, Australian netball great Renae Ingles, is expecting their third child and four-year-old son Jacob has autism and a weakened immune system.

Ingles said last week he hasn't worked out at the Jazz's practice facility despite it opening up to players with strict guidelines. He has a gym and hoop at his home for workouts.

Ingles will take a wait-and-see approach to playing games if the season does start.

"It's not worth it," Ingles, discussing practice at the Jazz facility, told Utah radio station 1280 The Zone last week.

   2943. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM (#5952891)
I kind of wish they'd just cancel the season. As someone rooting heavily for the Bucks, there's going to be a huge, huge asterisk on any title for them or anyone else. And frankly, I realize I'll probably just brush off any playoff defeat as bullshit and not real playoff basketball. So if I feel that way, how would I feel about a title. I don't think it'll be viewed as legitimate.

To me it's different from the European soccer leagues which are based off of regular season standings only, and are like 75% done. If that were the case, I'd be more comfortable with finishing the season here. Of course you can't do that now.
   2944. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:25 AM (#5952901)
I kind of wish they'd just cancel the season. As someone rooting heavily for the Bucks, there's going to be a huge, huge asterisk on any title for them or anyone else. And frankly, I realize I'll probably just brush off any playoff defeat as bullshit and not real playoff basketball. So if I feel that way, how would I feel about a title. I don't think it'll be viewed as legitimate.

I'm about 70% here on this, too. Obviously I want basketball back because I'm selfish and want to watch it, but whatever happens I think it's going to feel like a separate thing, detached from the 19-20 season.
   2945. McCoy Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:33 AM (#5952905)
Jerry Sloan died.
   2946. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:34 AM (#5952906)
I kind of wish they'd just cancel the season. As someone rooting heavily for the Bucks, there's going to be a huge, huge asterisk on any title for them or anyone else. And frankly, I realize I'll probably just brush off any playoff defeat as bullshit and not real playoff basketball. So if I feel that way, how would I feel about a title. I don't think it'll be viewed as legitimate.

just wait until someone important tests positive in the middle of the conference finals ...


if you want to disregard any championships that come out of it, fine, but i guarantee that whichever fanbase hoists the banner won't give half a #### about whether it was or was not real playoff basketball.
   2947. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:38 AM (#5952908)
   2948. Booey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:40 AM (#5952909)
RIP Coach Sloan.
   2949. McCoy Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:40 AM (#5952911)
Jordan was mentally and physically tired after every single season.

It's obviously very hard to say they would win 8 in a row but there is no doubt in my mind they would have won 4 in a row and probably 5 in a row had he not retired the first time. For the 4th title they were already at 55 wins and took the Knicks to 7. Grant was still in the team and Kukoc had joined the bulls. The next season would have been interesting because we don't know what happens to Grant if Jordan is still on the team. But even without him and an out if shape Jordan they take the Magic to 6.
   2950. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 11:40 AM (#5952912)
if you want to disregard any championships that come out of it, fine, but i guarantee that whichever fanbase hoists the banner won't give half a #### about whether it was or was not real playoff basketball.

This doesn't make any sense. I'm rooting for the team that has the best team in the NBA this year, and I just said I don't think I care if the Bucks win it.

Now maybe your argument is I'll change my mind when the games are being played. Perhaps, though I'm pretty skeptical. Played on neutral courts, after a huge gap in the season, and likely shortened rounds? Any one of those I could get past, but all of them together I think is a bridge too far for me.

Or perhaps your argument is I'm really a Spurs fan, not a Bucks fan. Now, that's somewhat true, but I'm more of a Bucks fan than most people who watch or go to a game. It's really just the die hards where I don't think that's true. It's possible they wouldn't care, since Milwaukee hasn't won a title for 50 years. And I'm spoiled with the Spurs # of recent titles, that I can be picky about what I think is legitimate.
   2951. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:02 PM (#5952920)
I can’t relate. I want basketball back and I want a winner declared. Even if some guys sit out.
   2952. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:09 PM (#5952921)
A second consecutive match decided by one vote in the quaren-tournament!
   2953. Booey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:30 PM (#5952925)
I never thought I'd say it, but at this point I'm in the "They should just cancel the season" camp too. Even with no other sports going on, I doubt I'll even bother to watch if they come back this summer. It's not the shortened season; every team has played between 63-67 games so they've already played a longer season than 1999 (50) and they're right on par with 2012 (66), and both those felt like "legitimate" titles to me. But both those seasons at least had a full playoff schedule, which is what matters most IMO. That's probably not possible here, and any type of shortened postseason or gimmicky tournament just won't feel like a "real" championship to me.

Not only that, but teams won't even be at full strength. Bogdanovic just had season ending wrist surgery that he could've held off on if he thought the season was coming back (he played the last 2 months of the season with the injury). Ingles has said that due to the high risk of having a pregnant wife and an autistic son he doesn't think it's worth returning, and I very much doubt he'll be the only player who thinks that (especially if they call back all the lottery teams for a couple meaningless games). Throw in the fact that the battle for HC all season will be rendered meaningless if the games are held at neutral sites, fans won't even be allowed to see their teams playoff runs in person, and of course the winning city probably won't even be allowed to hold a victory parade, and we're deep into "why bother?" territory.

YMMV, of course.
   2954. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:34 PM (#5952926)
Despite my reservations I'm certain I'll be 100% on board as soon as/if they start
   2955. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:36 PM (#5952927)
I just think it would be different. Like, I extremely doubt this happens, but Kevin Durant could suit up for the 7th seed Nets if things are pushed back far enough. We kind of always talk about the playoffs and the regular season being different in the NBA, but they might be just entirely different things altogether this time around.
   2956. JJ1986 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:37 PM (#5952928)
I definitely think they should cancel the regular season since that's adding twice as many teams to the mix (although I guess there are contractual reasons why this would hurt financially). I'll wait and see on the postseason, and I think it won't all be normal, but my interest probably depends more on how the Lakers/Clippers/Bucks play and if they are at full strength than anything other teams do.
   2957. Booey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 12:40 PM (#5952931)
Wow, a one vote decision where neither team captain even bothered voting for their own team!
   2958. Dolf Lucky Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:00 PM (#5952936)
The tough thing with the NBA coming back is that it will be nearly impossible to fully separate its comeback from the political fault lines that are otherwise framing the covid response.

From a Timberwolves fan perspective, I think a comeback would be as pointless as pointless could get.

From a basketball fan perspective, I'd be somewhat interested, but the hypothetical in 2955 (KD comes back despite not playing all year) would leave a mild negative taste. Add the potential of players opting out and you end up with some serious asterisk potential. I think fans are smart enough to handle that.

From a citizen perspective, I hope like hell the NBA comes back. The data I've been watching seems to suggest a virus in decline and it would be great to see more and more "return to normal" events. Not to suggest that basketball is of extreme importance nor that a return would be risk-free. Just that symbolic gestures matter and also that I'm strongly looking forward to covid getting off my twitter feed.

As an aside, the asterisk comment led me to think of the '99 Knicks, which led me to visit basketball reference, which led me to discover that the Knicks are nearly 200 games below .500 over their franchise history. That's incredible. If an alien visited the planet in 2000 and asked who the best 5 franchises in NBA history were, the Knicks probably make that list, right? Now, there would be no chance they make that list.
   2959. DCA Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:11 PM (#5952940)
Quartet of elimination games coming up!

Stiggles vs Slivers (say that seven times swiftly) on Memorial Day (winters needs to update the voting site) followed by Dolf vs BO on Wednesday. Then the winners of each game have to play again against tship and NJ.
   2960. DCA Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5952943)
best 5 franchises in NBA history

Lakers
Celtics
Warriors
Spurs
Bulls

I don't see any other possibilities for top 5 (within this group, 1-2 and 3-4-5 could go in any order)
   2961. Booey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5952948)
Warriors are below .500 for their franchise history. They have no argument as being better or equal to the Spurs, who have the best overall winning percentage in league history.
   2962. tshipman Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:34 PM (#5952951)
I don't see any other possibilities for top 5 (within this group, 1-2 and 3-4-5 could go in any order)


I think Spurs are a clear 3rd, and Detroit probably belongs over GSW.
   2963. Dolf Lucky Posted: May 22, 2020 at 01:37 PM (#5952954)
I don't see any other possibilities for top 5 (within this group, 1-2 and 3-4-5 could go in any order)


Agreed on both fronts. But 20 years ago, there's no way the Spurs are on that list and it would have been tough to accept an argument on the Warriors as of 2000. I think the Knicks are in as of that point.

Incidentally, if the Timberwolves really nail the draft this year and surprise the league with a 60-win season and then follow that up with 12 additional 60-win seasons, all in succession, they still won't have a winning record across their entire history.

Which raises a separate question. Can you make a case for there being a worse franchise in all of professional sports than the Wolves? Maybe let's cut it off to say post-WW2, to avoid the Cleveland Spiders or whatever.

I'm thinking that if you account for actual results plus add in front office buffoonery, you can't find a better franchise in any sport, in terms of being the worst.
   2964. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:01 PM (#5952961)
Maybe I'm crazy, but the Bulls? They have really only ever been relevant when MJ was playing. Outside of that they have never even made a Finals! Obviously the dynasty counts for a lot but it seems hard to call something a top 5 franchise that has only been relevant because of one player (ok, throw Pippen in there too, point remains).
   2965. tshipman Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:08 PM (#5952964)
Utah has a case if you don't mind the zero championships thing. They've had a winning record 30/46 seasons
   2966. JJ1986 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5952965)
Can you make a case for there being a worse franchise in all of professional sports than the Wolves? Maybe let's cut it off to say post-WW2, to avoid the Cleveland Spiders or whatever.
The NFL considers them to be part of the old franchise (which they aren't), but the new Cleveland Browns are up there. One playoff game. Consistent last place finishes. Criminal owner. Constantly changing direction.
   2967. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:35 PM (#5952974)
Can you make a case for there being a worse franchise in all of professional sports than the Wolves?


How about the NFL Cardinals? Have been in existence for a full century, only 10 playoff appearances in that span, last championship in 1947, one more before that in 1925.
   2968. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5952979)
Sad to hear about Sloan.

---

Despite my reservations I'm certain I'll be 100% on board as soon as/if they start

Yeah, this is where I think I am. It's totally unnecessary, but I'm desperate for sports. Also, who knows how much longer LeBron is gonna be able to play at this level?
   2969. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:45 PM (#5952980)
1. Lakers
2. Celtics
3. Spurs
4. Warriors
5. Bulls
6. Heat

I think the Warriors franchise is worth ranking because they've been able to together championship seasons in the 60s, 70s, and 2010s. Sure, there's a lot of garbage in between, but 6 titles is 6 titles. Same goes for the Bulls, and I rate them below the Warriors because they haven't done much outside the Jordan years.

There's a good case to be made for the Heat being on the list. They've only been around for 32 years, but they've been the playoffs 20 times. They've won 13 division titles, more than any other team besides LA, Boston, San Antonio and Milwaukee (by just 1 more). They've been to just one fewer Finals than the Warriors or Bulls, and they've got three championships. They've had more success than any franchise added after 1968. Most of this was done during the Wade years, of course, but Wade was only the best player for the middle stretch; The Mourning/Hardaway teams in the mid-90s won four straight division titles and went a Conference Finals, and of course Lebron was the best player for their title runs earlier last decade. In the last dozen years, they've only had two losing seasons. Part of that success has been because the East has been pretty crappy for most of that stretch, but winning is winning, and they've done lots of it.
   2970. spivey Posted: May 22, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5952982)
Despite my reservations I'm certain I'll be 100% on board as soon as/if they start

Yeah, this is where I think I am. It's totally unnecessary, but I'm desperate for sports. Also, who knows how much longer LeBron is gonna be able to play at this level?


Don't get me wrong. I suspect I'll watch. But regardless of who wins, I don't personally plan on treating it as a normal championship, and I don't think I'm going to get anxiety leading up to games like I would have otherwise. But we shall see.
   2971. aberg Posted: May 22, 2020 at 03:41 PM (#5952997)
Depending on how the season ends, there could be a lot of parallels between this year's Bucks and the 94 Expos. Both are franchises that haven't won anything in forever and don't necessarily have super long contention windows (due to Montreal parsimony and Giannis's contract). Both have magical seasons cut short or changed due to non-sporting reasons. I hope the Bucks don't go down that same route. DC doesn't need another team.
   2972. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 03:46 PM (#5952998)
how about the wizards?
   2973. tshipman Posted: May 22, 2020 at 03:52 PM (#5953000)
I just wonder what the hell is going to happen to the lottery teams. If they really are going to try to play 5 more regular season games, what happens if some guys just don't show up for them?
   2974. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 22, 2020 at 03:53 PM (#5953001)
fun fact:
MIA has as many NBA titles and as many conference championships as the sixers, despite playing less than half as many seasons.

bonus fun fact:
they also have more division titles than the sixers.
   2975. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 22, 2020 at 04:33 PM (#5953006)
...why???

Though I'm now trying to picture the worst possible combo, say Zo and Kaminsky?
   2976. Howie Menckel Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:27 PM (#5953038)
Newsday Sports
@NewsdaySports
·
59m
#Knicks great Patrick Ewing hospitalized after testing positive for COVID-19: https://nwsdy.li/2WXBdS6
   2977. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 22, 2020 at 08:43 PM (#5953039)
Well, ####.
   2978. Howie Menckel Posted: May 22, 2020 at 09:53 PM (#5953052)
Bob Cousy highlight reel

God willing, he'll be 92 in August
   2979. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 23, 2020 at 12:24 AM (#5953066)
#11 HOMBRE 8, #7 TSHIP 7
Hombre remains in one-loss bracket, Tship falls into two-loss bracket

Our second straight one-vote matchup goes to Hombre by a nose. One thing everyone agreed on was that Magic Johnson would excel in this matchup. Tship voters felt this would carry the day, while Hombre voters saw their team as more versatile and able to score consistently. (I voted for Hombre but forgot to include rationale, so I've given myself an excerpt below).

Tship voters:
<[Tship] has teh defenders to make things difficult for everyone on the other side, whereas none of Hombre's starters can credibly defend Magic>
<The two reasons I think Team TShipman wins are better defense and I trust Magic to be able to create offense as needed.>
<[Hombre's] plan... [feeds] right into Magic's strength.>
<This is going to be an awesome rebounding fight... in the end I think the individual matchups favor the team with Magic Johnson>

Hombre voters:
<Really tough matchup... Hombre by a hair because he's got better scorers and I trust their ability to put the ball in the hoop down the stretch just a tiny bit more.>
<Magic is fairly unbothered by Drexler, but I think I favor Hombre everywhere else.>
<I don't think tship has a strong half court offense whereas Wilt and Paul guarantee the ability to grind out points>
<Magic is great but if he's off, there's not a lot there that can carry the offense.>
<Both sides run offenses intelligently, but the athleticism from Barkley and Wilt is too much for team TShipman to handle>

NEXT UP: Our first elimination game: #12 Stiggles vs. #5 Slivers. Voting ends Monday at noon EDT.
   2980. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 23, 2020 at 10:40 AM (#5953095)
NEXT UP: Our first elimination game: #12 Stiggles vs. #5 Slivers. Voting ends Monday at noon EDT.


Not to be that guy, but does this Monday count as the weekend? Also, I hope we have write-ups and such before Monday.
   2981. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 23, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5953108)
Sorry, I looked at the schedule, and didn't see my name, so haven't prepared a writeup. Will do so today.
   2982. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 23, 2020 at 07:43 PM (#5953156)
So Game #17 is still listed as Stiggles vs. TBD. I guess I am TBD, but I have no ability to add anything to that matchup, nor vote. I'll wait for it to be opened to post my lineup and writeup.
   2983. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 23, 2020 at 08:29 PM (#5953161)
Just post it here for now, and you can update the voting site when it opens up. Anyone who's going to vote will be on this thread anyways.
   2984. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 23, 2020 at 09:46 PM (#5953167)
Slivers lineup:

Starters:
PG Nash '07: 36
PF Malone '93: 36
SF: Havlicek '72: 30
SG: Hill '97: 30
C Shaq '00: 36

Backups:
Rose '11: 12
Griffin '14: 12
Wallace '02: 12
Arizin '52: 18
Jones '65: 18

Approach:
The big threat Stiggles poses is of course Antetokounmpo. I plan to use a one-two combo of A) Malone and Wallace on him as the size component, and B) Hondo on him as the quickness component. Havlicek is all-defense this season and I am trusting him to produce steals; Giannis is relatively turnover-prone for someone his size. On the flip size this will allow Shaq to dominate the middle against Kemp and Ming. I consider that a mismatch; Ming is perhaps the best person to put on Shaq, but he doesn't have a lot of blocks and both Ming and Kemp are foul-prone as it is (3.5 and 4.3 PF/36). Whatever lineup he puts out there, I think I can also have a favorable matchup with the Nash/Malone PnR (better than a Stockton/Malone PnR).

He will try to counter with speed and outside shooting. I feel that the electorate has assumed that play will be a more open 2010s style rather than the rough-and-tumble 90s/00s style that most of my players are good at. I wish to propose that A) his players would actually fare worse in the kind of basketball played in the earlier era and B) if you are going to assume a more modern style of play, you need to uprate my old-timers (Arizin, Sam Jones, Hondo) as well as my 90s/00s players (esp. Hill and Malone) accordingly.

I feel with Shaq in the middle, elite shooters in Nash, Malone, and Hill, with Sam Jones and Arizin in reserve, and Shaq, Hondo, Hill and Wallace as plus defenders, that we can win this matchup.




   2985. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 23, 2020 at 09:51 PM (#5953169)
writeup against [insert name here]:

starters:
damien lillard ('20):          30 MPG
kawhi leonard ('
16):           36 
giannis antetokounmpo 
('19):   36 
shawn kemp ('
94):              24
yao ming 
('09):                30

bench:
andrei kirilenko ('
04):        30
kyrie irving 
('19):            24
brent barry ('
02):             12
gerald wallace 
('06):          12
drazen petrovic ('
93):          



plan A:
shut down your best guy.

plan B:
shut down your next best guy. and the one after that.

plan C:
giannis goes freak on your ass.

plan D:
bombs away with lillard and kyrie (and drazen, barry and kawhi)


when my team has the ball:
we're gonna attack the rim with reckless abandon by spamming pick and rolls. lillard/kemp ... lillard/giannis ... giannis/kemp ... lillard/kirilenko ... giannis/kirilenko ... plus kyrie. we're gonna get big freaky guys moving downhill, and good luck to anyone trying to stop them. if you sag off of the ballandlers, both lillard and kyrie have limitless range and effortlessly create space to get their shot up off the dribble.

if by some means you can manage to slow all of that down, brent barry (42% 3P%), kawhi (45% 3P%) and drazen (44% 3P%) will be waiting for kickouts in the short corner.

and after all of that: you still have to deal with giannis antetokounmpo and kawhi leonard attacking any physical mismatches.


when [insert name here] has the ball:
your perimeter ballhandlers will have the longest two weeks of their lives.
your low post threats will be attacked by double teams coming from every direction.
your shooters will be seeing ghosts after this horde of 6'10" monstars closes out on them from half-way across the court all series long.

any lazy passes will be intercepted.
any shoddy playmaking or ball movement or off-ball player movement will grind your offense to a halt.
any weak ass #### whatsoever will be severely punished.


if you cannot match my team's physicality and intensity, you've got no chance.
   2986. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 23, 2020 at 10:48 PM (#5953175)
writeup against [insert name here]:
I feel like this is the most realistic approach to coaching anyone's put forth. Play to your strengths, and whatever happens, happens.
   2987. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 23, 2020 at 10:57 PM (#5953178)
I think the Warriors franchise is worth ranking because they've been able to together championship seasons in the 60s, 70s, and 2010s.


The 1967 Philly team was the 76ers; the Warriors were in SF by then. But the point is solid.

Franchise rankings:
1. Lakers
2. Celtics

3. Spurs

4. Warriors/Bulls
5. Heat


Utah and Dallas have been very well-run franchises for the most part, especially Utah, but no titles for Utah. Chicago's run with Jordan was IMO the greatest run ever by any franchise--but other than that, the Bulls have not done much.

Season: I think they should shut it down, for several reasons.
   2988. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 24, 2020 at 01:39 AM (#5953195)
I feel like this is the most realistic approach to coaching anyone's put forth. Play to your strengths, and whatever happens, happens.
fun fact:
i sideboarded yao into my starting lineup only after i noticed who [insert name here] had as their starting center in [2984].


bonus fun fact:
and i still got the minutes to add up to 240.
   2989. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2020 at 12:15 PM (#5953229)
So I can't vote (yet) on the game. The tubes won't let me. Which makes me cry. OK, not really.
   2990. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 24, 2020 at 02:20 PM (#5953244)
We will give STIGGLES and Slivers an extra day, what with the voting site not yet updated and Monday being Memorial Day. Voting deadline for Game 17 will be on TUESDAY. Voting deadline for Game 18, Dolf Lucky vs BaseballObscura, will still be on Wednesday.
   2991. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: May 24, 2020 at 06:34 PM (#5953288)
It is fascinating to me that Charles Barkley, a legit Hall of Famer in a sport that demands athletic excellence, looks like something like a drunken hippopotamus when he golfs.
   2992. Howie Menckel Posted: May 24, 2020 at 08:48 PM (#5953302)
they had that charity golf match today (which raised 20 million bucks so bravo) of Tiger and Peyton Manning vs Phil and Brady.

the latter is having a terrible time (he and Manning tend to shoot around 80 so about 10 strokes worse than the pros with modestly easier tee placements).

Barkley is 'in the booth,' and while he clearly is just about Brady's biggest fanboy, he can't resist the urge to needle Brady - asking Brady how many shots he should get from Barkley for a one-hole playoff after this event. this is brutal because Brady can beat him by at least 20 shots over a full round.

Brady is hearing this in his golf cart as he prepares to hit his 4th shot on a par-5 from 150 yards away (that's not good). of course Brady knocks one right at the flagstick and it goes IN THE HOLE for a preposterous birdie.

this would be as hard to do as rallying from 28-3 down in the Super Bowl. but that one had the opposing coaches unintentionally but aggressively aiding Brady. so this - the equivalent of a respectable hole-in-one in the midst of perhaps a once-in-a-lifetime event - was harder.

to his credit, Barkley loved it.
   2993. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: May 25, 2020 at 03:51 PM (#5953395)
Q: who was the best european player of all time?

lebron: Petrovic.

   2994. DCA Posted: May 25, 2020 at 04:53 PM (#5953407)
Well I guess he’s too young to have seen Sabonis in his prime
   2995. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2020 at 05:25 PM (#5953413)
I think it's probably Pau (career) and Doncic (peak).
   2996. Booey Posted: May 25, 2020 at 06:20 PM (#5953420)
Y'all are forgetting Dirk.
   2997. Booey Posted: May 25, 2020 at 06:23 PM (#5953422)
And I'd go with Giannis for peak.
   2998. Dolf Lucky Posted: May 25, 2020 at 06:35 PM (#5953424)
Cassell for greatest intergalactic player
   2999. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2020 at 06:42 PM (#5953425)
I def forgot about Giannis. Did not forget about Dirk, but looking closer, probably underrated him.
   3000. Hot Wheeling American Posted: May 25, 2020 at 10:07 PM (#5953460)
A remember to vote flip!
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