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Wednesday, April 08, 2020

OT – NBA CoronaThread 2020

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and hopefully all of them survive these next few weeks.

BBTF Corona Draft Tournament Voting Page

BBTF Corona Tournament Brackets

BBTF Corona Draft and Rosters Page

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 08, 2020 at 04:54 AM | 3283 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off-topic

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   3201. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 03, 2020 at 04:04 PM (#5955151)
Flipper
   3202. tshipman Posted: June 03, 2020 at 04:49 PM (#5955163)
Woj Nuke:

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
5h
So the NBA's inviting 22 teams to Orlando: 13 Western Conference, 9 Eastern Conference. Eight-regular season games per team. Play-in for the 8th seeds. July 31-October 12. Vote tomorrow to ratify.
The NBA's back.
   3203. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 03, 2020 at 05:05 PM (#5955164)
July 31st seems so damn far away. I'm curious to see some of the specifics, but glad this appears to be less gimmicky that some of the ideas floated.

Saw some tweets about the teams not included worrying about how longer their time off will be, and pushing for some sort of exhibition or stuff those teams can do. Also curious if what that means for the next season - even beginning of January seems like too optimistic to start the next season, not to mention the draft (and lottery) and FA.
   3204. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 03, 2020 at 05:23 PM (#5955169)
Not for nothing, but I believe the guy who owns this website has said something very similar, and we all still post here ...
And we never interact with him. I helped with an earlier build of this website, and I can't even remember the last time I talked to him.

As for Napear... timing is everything, and he picked a bad time to open his yap. This isn't proof that he's racist or anything, but he was a public voice for an organization in an industry where the labor force and a large segment of the fan base finds that stuff insulting. A team that employs someone who puts them in this sort of negative light at their peril.

And yeah, he's a terrible call. NBA home team guys are homers, but Napear is one of those unlistenable guys. Is it just me, or are there more of those types in the NBA than in baseball and the NFL? Feels that way to me.
   3205. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 03, 2020 at 05:24 PM (#5955171)
Yeah, I wonder how all this fades into a discussion of the long-term calendar. I like the basketball winter calendar, but you could make an argument that these days counterprogramming the NFL is more important than counterprogramming MLB.

As for Napear... timing is everything, and he picked a bad time to open his yap. This isn't proof that he's racist or anything, but he was a public voice for an organization in an industry where the labor force and a large segment of the fan base finds that stuff insulting. A team that employs someone who puts them in this sort of negative light at their peril.


There are a lot of people behind the floodgates confirming that he is a racist. The idea that someone could have "more black friends than white friends" and not realize that "all lives matter" is offensive is, uhhhh, not so credible. Let alone having your career be in a sport dominated by African-Americans.
   3206. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 03, 2020 at 05:35 PM (#5955174)
It's not a new story, but the resurfaced Donald Sterling story about JJ Redick is something else.

Really glad that man is no longer associated with the NBA.
   3207. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 03, 2020 at 09:09 PM (#5955206)
Wes Unseld was a bit early for me. "Never saw him play." Wish I had. Always loved the idea of him, strong widebody fighting the trees for position and rebounding.

From the time the Bullets came to Washington until about 1980, I went to about 10-15 games a year at the Cap Centre. Good midcourt seats back then could be had for $5.00 and there was free parking in a mall that was less than a mile away.

Terrific team, with great rivalries with the Celtics and Sixers, great players like Elvin Hayes, Phil Chenier, Bobby Dandridge, Truck Robinson, and Kevin Porter, but Unseld was its heart and soul. Talk about athleticism: His ability to grab a rebound, spin in the air, and fire a two handed outlet pass before hitting the ground was a thing of pure beauty. Other than Wilt, he was the only player in NBA history to be the MVP in addition to being ROY.

And while his point totals were modest, like those of Bill Russell and Dennis Rodman, here's a stat that puts Unseld's value in perspective: From the time he first came into the NBA in 1968, he had the highest total rebound average of any player who entered the league from his rookie year or after: 14.0. You can look it up.
   3208. Kurt Posted: June 03, 2020 at 09:26 PM (#5955213)
My dad **loved** Wes Unseld. The main thing I remember from his coaching my rec team was how much time he spent teaching us how to box out.
   3209. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:20 AM (#5955249)
Greg Logan @GregLogan1
Folks re-tweeting French language interview w/Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot, who apparently said, #KevinDurant has been healthy for 5 months practices full & is "pain in butt." Supposedly, Durant wants to play but might not be cleared. It gets real Thursday when #NBA announces plan.
Howard Beck @HowardBeck
File this under "Things That Seem Wholly Unimportant Right Now," but: Game 1 of the NBA Finals would have been
Michael Grange @michaelgrange
“It was a shock” — Pascal Siakam didn’t grow up a racial minority in Cameroon, but quickly learned what that meant when he came to North America to pursue his hoops dream: sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba…
Mark Deeks @MarkDeeksNBA
I guess that means Vince Carter's career just officially ended.
   3210. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:43 AM (#5955253)
That last one hurts.
   3211. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:06 AM (#5955255)
Is there a guy who more epitomizes how the NBA has changed than Vince? Entered the league as an athletic scorer, leaves it as a 3-point marksman. In his 5th year he shot 3.2 threes and 15.4 twos per 36, his last couple years he shot twice as many threes as twos.

All-Evolved-With-The-Modern-NBA-Team

PG Jason Kidd
SG Vince Carter
SF ?????
PF Blake Griffin
C Brook Lopez

All-Didn't-Evolve-Team
PG Russell Westbrook
SG DeMar DeRozan
SF Andrew Wiggins
PF Carmelo Anthony
C Boban Marjanovic
   3212. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:14 AM (#5955256)
#1 JJ1986 10, #8 SCOTT LANGE 5
JJ1986 remains in winners' bracket; Lange drops to one-loss bracket

This contest, of course, centered around JJ1986's primary initiator, LeBron James. But evaluation was mixed; a couple people thought LeBron could be contained, a couple people thought LeBron would dominate, but many people felt that this was a push and that it was the secondary players who would decide it. Lange put up a good fight but in the end LeBron remained undefeated, and JJ1986 became the league's first 3-0 team.

Quotes from Lange voters:
<< I think this really is well positioned to stop LeBron. Jones as the primary defender works... I think it comes down to Olajuwon. I don't really believe that Zo can stop prime Olajuwon >>
<< Love this matchup for Scott Lange. In Bobby Jones and Hakeem, he has two elite hyperactive defenders with length and mobility, much like the Ben Wallace Pistons that held LeBron to his lowest outputs. >>
<< I think Team Scott Lange edges Team JJ1986. They are slightly outscored with the starters in, but the bench is just enough better and so they edge out a last second victory >>
<< [Team Lange] will often lack passing while on the court. However, his team would have to shoot 3% worse than they did in real life for this matchup to be close. >>

Quotes from JJ voters:
<< I really struggled with this one. Not much to say other than that I think JJ's wing defenders will give Scott's problems more than the other way around. >>
<< Scott... has only two guys who can facilitate in Penny/West while JJ has twice that many just in his starting lineup. >>
<< I'm swayed by JJ's argument that Scott only has one really good ballhandler for 24 minutes out there, and JJ's greyhounds can get after it and cover a lot of perimeter ground. >>
<< Lange has a good team and matches up well. However, in a game of relative equality, the team with the best player wins. >>
<< I like Bobby Jones on LeBron, but ... JJ [is] going to get excellent spacing and open shots.

NEXT UP: Willard Baseball vs Harlond in the winners' bracket to produce our second 3-0 team. Voting due Friday at noon ET. I don't see writeups yet, hopefully those are coming soon.
   3213. Rally Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:34 AM (#5955268)
Glad the NBA is coming back, but 2 more months sure seems like a long time.

Not sure why, if agreement is in place and they have a location to play all these games, they can't get on the court in a few weeks.

If this is the best that can be done in a league where all parties seem to be working well together and in agreement, it does not bode well for the prospect of having baseball games.
   3214. Scott Lange Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:22 AM (#5955273)
Not sure why, if agreement is in place and they have a location to play all these games, they can't get on the court in a few weeks.

Doesn't make sense to me either. If the idea is that conditions are too dangerous right now, but they'll be better in two months, it seems to be based on nothing but hope. There's no particular reason to think things are going to be better 2-4 months from now than they are now. Florida's numbers peaked around 1,200 new cases per day in early April, slowly trended down to around 600/day in early May, and have slowly trended back up to around 900/day now. It could be lower in 2 months, but it could just as easily be higher.
   3215. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:26 AM (#5955274)
Also Disney World opens July 15. It seems like getting their procedures in place and tightened up prior to that date would be a good thing, too.
   3216. Harlond Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:20 AM (#5955283)
Matchup—Harlond vs Willard Baseball

Based on per 36-minute rates, and assuming Willard gives all his starters 36 minutes and reserves 12 minutes and I do the same, my team has a slight edge in total rebounding at 47.2 vs. 44.8 and turnovers at 12.7 vs. 17.3 (which does not include Robertson’s contribution. We also have a slight edge in personal fouls per game at 15.5 vs. 18.3, a significant edge in free throws attempted at 47.7 vs. 40.8, and probably an advantage in FT%. Willard has the edge in assists and 2p%. Willard also has a very small advantage in WS at 87.2 vs. his 88.3 and in WS/48 at 1.43 vs. his 1.46. Looking only at starters, Willard has 70.6 WS vs. my 70.5 and 1.17 WS/48 vs. my 1.15. By WS measures, these teams are essentially equal despite the presence of Jordan.

Lineup I Am Starting:

PG Robertson (1963-64)—(36)
SG Jones (1999-00)—(36)
SF Pierce (2001-02)—(36)
PF Butler (2016-17)—(36)
C Robinson (1994-95)—(36)

Reserves:
PG Simmons (2019-20)—(18)
PF/SG Cassell (2003-04)—(18)
SF Marshall (2003-04)—(12)
PF Grant (1991-92)—(6)
C Malone (1982-83)—(6)

Lineup Willard Is Starting:

PG Payton (1995-96)
SG Jordan (1987-88)
SF Carter (2000-01)
PF Nowitzki (2006-07)
C Green (2015-16)

When My Team Has The Ball:

On offense, Willard has three good 3Pt shooters—Nowitzki, Carter, and Draymond—versus my 5—Pierce (.404), Butler (.367; .553 from the corner), Jones (.375), Cassell (.398), and Marshall (.403). Two of Willard’s 3Pt shooters—Nowitzki and Draymond—are less mobile, and we should be able to keep them from getting a significant volume of 3Pt shots, leaving Carter as the only 3Pt shooter likely to disrupt the defense. By contrast, Pierce, Butler, Jones, and Cassell are quick enough to get around their defenders and get to the basket on their own, so they are not so easy to hold down. We plan to always have at least three 3pt shooters on the court, and should have effectively two more 3Pt threats on the court than Willard at all time. We’ll hunt for the 3Pt shot in order to exploit this advantage.

We will run PnRs with Robinson and Simmons to get Robertson, Pierce, Butler, Jones or Cassell an open 3pt (or in Robertson’s case an open midrange shot), give them an open lane to the rim, or give Robinson or Simmons a chance to roll to the rim. Also, we will run when we can with Robinson, Robertson, Simmons, Pierce, Butler, Jones and Cassell. We should get some wide open 3Pt shots that way, as well as layups. Willard has excellent closers on the break in Jordan, Carter, Draymond, and Payton, but my team is also quite good in this respect, so we should be able to match Willard.

We will also try to feed the ball to Robinson. Draymond is great, but Robinson should be able to use his size and height to get good shots close in, and if another defender helps, Robinson is a good enough passer to find an open man.

Also, we can count on Oscar to be able to get a decent midrange shot pretty much whenever he wants. Pierce and Butler are also good at getting their own shots.

As mentioned, we have a clear edge in getting to the FT line. Moreover, four of my starters shot over .809 from the line, while only two of Willard’s starters did. Willard’s team is also slightly more foul prone. Combined, these should result in us getting 7-10 more FTA and an addition 6-7 points.

Overall, the offensive goals are: (1) to take a significantly higher volume of 3Pt shots than Willard, which we should be able to convert at an equivalent or greater rate than Willard, and thereby gain an addition 6-10 points; (2) to gain an additional 6-7 points from the free throw line; (3) to match Willard in the transition game; and (4) to shoot mid-range jumpers and close-to-the-rim shots at the same rate as Willard.

When Willard Has The Ball:

On defense, Pierce will have the Jordan assignment when Simmons is out of the game, otherwise Simmons will guard Jordan. With his length and ability to guard all five positions on the court, Simmons should be able to effectively contest Jordan’s shots both in the midrange and at the basket. That said, Robertson (on Payton), Pierce, Butler ( on Draymond), Jones (on Carter), and Simmons will switch everything. Whoever is guarding Jordan will lay off him outside 16 feet and focus on preventing him from getting to the basket and getting a hand up on any shot. The goal is to encourage Jordan to take the 3, where he shot .132, keep him away from the rim, where he’s deadly, and make him settle for midrange jumpers. He’ll hit those, but especially when Simmons is on him, Jordan will always have a defender on him that is tall and long enough to offer a really good contest. While we won’t concede Payton the open three, we’ll play him loosely enough to keep him out of the lane wherever possible without giving up the ability to get a hand up on his 3Pt attempts.

Robinson will guard Nowitzki the full 36 minutes. Robinson is quick enough to stay with Nowitzki all over the court, strong enough to keep him from getting good position, and tall and long enough to contest everything he shoots. Robinson has the defensive chops to neutralize Nowitzki’s 3Pt shooting and get an excellent contest on everything else Nowitzki shoots.
When Nowitzki sets a pick for Jordan or Payton (or anybody but Carter), their defenders will go under the pick. With Carter, we’ll go over the pick and Robinson will hedge a little to allow the defender to catch up.

On Carter and Draymond, my defenders will have to respect the three. Nowitzki will probably spend a lot of time on the 3Pt line, so we often won’t be able to count on Robinson guarding the rim. All of my defenders are quick enough that they can neutralize Draymond’s 3Pt shooting without being beaten to the lane. When Carter beats his defender, we’ll have to hope for a good rotation. At this level, you have to pick your poison on defense, and our goal is to neutralize Willard’s second best scoring option in Nowitzki while forcing Jordan and the others to take mainly contested mid-range jumpers.

Overall, the defensive goals are: (1) to take away Nowitzki’s and Draymond’s 3Pt shot while offering a good contest on everything else they try; (2) concede the 3Pt to Jordan to keep him out of the lane and otherwise contest his mid-range jumper; (3) use my tall and long defenders to force everyone else to take mostly contested mid-range jumpers

Scoring:

Willard has Jordan, but we have multiple tall and long defenders who can offer a good contest to the mid-range jumpers Jordan can and will get. We have a defender who can effectively neutralize Nowitzki’s 3Pt shooting and make him work for everything he gets anywhere else. We have a number of mobile and quick 3Pt shooters that should enable us effectively to have three good 3Pt shooters to Willard’s one at almost all times and therefore should easily win the 3Pt shooting battle. We take FTs at a significantly higher rate and should gain a clear margin there as well. If we can match Willard at mid-range shooting—and with Robertson, one of the greatest mid-range scorers in NBA history, Butler, Pierce, and Jones—we’re reasonably formidable there as well—and equal him in the transition game—and here again, with Simmons, Robertson, Pierce, Butler, Jones, Cassell, and Robinson, we’re built to run—our advantage in 3Pt shooting volume and FTA should give us the win.
   3217. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:23 AM (#5955284)
Not sure why, if agreement is in place and they have a location to play all these games, they can't get on the court in a few weeks.

Few weeks is literally impossible. They haven't played or practiced in almost 3 months. Best I can figure on the timeline is give everyone a couple of weeks to get everything in order and get to the site (so say 6/18). Then 10-14 days there with everyone quarantining/self-isolating (7/2). Then 3 weeks for some sort of training camp (7/23). So I'm only off 1 week, so maybe they get a little more time to get to ORL* or to have in camp.

TBH, this whole plan made more sense to me when Disney was closed. Once it opens back up, this is a whole different thing. I doubt we'll be privy to all of the details for what they do when (not if) someone tests positive for COVID during each stage of the process.

*Do the Magic players have to stay at Disney too or can they go to their homes each night?
   3218. spivey Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:54 AM (#5955290)
Re: 3217

What they're doing in the German soccer league is the teams are transported to and from hotel. Players are staying in hotels even in their home city as I understand it, and their family isn't with them. I'm sure there is some way the NBA can reserve a floor or three of some hotel. The amount of money the NBA stands to make by returning will dwarf any logistic concerns about how to make sure other people aren't around them. I also doubt that even with Disney/Orlando opening back up they're going to be anywhere near normal capacity for some time.

Now, how well the players comply will be interesting. I expect Magic players absolutely need to be following the same guidelines as everyone else, and it's a big risk if they don't.
   3219. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:58 AM (#5955291)
I'm waiting to see what the league's plan is to provide groupies access to the players before I pass judgment.
   3220. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:17 AM (#5955296)
Coronado Springs is rumored to be the NBA's hotel of choice in Orlando.

2,345 rooms.

22 teams.

330 or so players.

100 or so coaches.

almost 2,000 rooms still left over for family, groupies, etc.
   3221. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:25 AM (#5955297)
What do you guys think about how the disappearance of home court advantage will play out?

EDIT: That's poorly worded but I assume the gist is clear.
   3222. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:28 AM (#5955300)
[3221] Lowe made fun of the home court proposals that have been floated, and I admit that they are goofy and unlikely to be passed just from a numbers perspective, but...it is bullshit for the top teams to lose that without getting anything in return.
   3223. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:32 AM (#5955301)
It's definitely a bummer, I agree. I'm just not sure what else to do, other than major things like the lower seed has to win 5 out of 7? And that just seems too extreme.
   3224. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:36 AM (#5955303)
I gotta say I have absolutely forgotten so many of the narratives of this season, it's going to feel like a totally fresh start to me. I saw some Celtics tidbit the other day and remembered, oh yeah, I love this year's team!
   3225. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:56 AM (#5955308)
What do you guys think about how the disappearance of home court advantage will play out?

home: 29-2
road: 10-24


yeah, this is fine.
   3226. Booey Posted: June 04, 2020 at 12:12 PM (#5955309)
Re: HC - Too lazy to try and look up any of the studies, but hasn't the supposed advantage of HC itself been proven to be overstated in a playoff series? A lot of people just see that the home team wins like 75-80% of all series and think it's huge, but that number is heavily skewed by statistical mismatches like 1/8, 2/7, 3/6, 1/4, and 1/5 match ups. Those teams aren't winning because they have HC; they're winning because they're much better teams (which is why they have HC in the first place. It's a chicken or the egg question). Between teams with similar records - say 4/5, 2/3, and 1/2 match ups (or 1/1 or 2/2 in the Finals) - it's much closer to being a toss up and HC doesn't really seem to matter.

This may have changed since I read this years ago, but I remember at one point in my decades of fandom, the 5th seed had a slightly higher winning % in the first round than the 4th seed with HC did.
   3227. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 04, 2020 at 12:14 PM (#5955310)
Tim Reynolds @ByTimReynolds
AP Source: The National Basketball Players Association and the NBA are working on a "lengthy" medical protocols document, the details of which will be shared with teams once those discussions are completed -- and in plenty of time for teams to prepare for the Disney/ESPN arrival.
   3228. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 12:40 PM (#5955318)
home: 29-2
road: 10-24


yeah, this is fine.

Ha, your guys were the team I was thinking about. But for all of their road blahs they lose they also lose the home invincibility (both of which were likely at least partially fluky, but still).
   3229. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 04, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5955322)
Ha, your guys were the team I was thinking about. But for all of their road blahs they lose they also lose the home invincibility (both of which were likely at least partially fluky, but still).

sixers record w/ joel embiid (through 4 years):
home: 85-31 (.732 win percentage)
road: 40-46 (.465 win percentage)


this year was a bit more swingy than usual, but this kind of home/road split is a notable feature of the post-hinkie sixers. the crowd is ravenous, and embiid feeds off of it, which feeds the crowd, which feeds embiid, and it just works.
   3230. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5955323)
There are multiple theories of home court, right?

There's the theory that a lot of it are the officials being influenced by the crowd. If that's the case, we'd expect to have the least biased set of playoffs in history, and for home court to be completely negated.

There's the theory that some of it is just due to comfort and routine, and if that's the case, we'd expect players who are influenced by that to be negatively affected equally. So maybe look for lower jumpshooting percentages? Would be subtle, so hard to identify except after the fact.

The thing that stands out to me is that there won't be a jumbotron, right? So that means that players won't be able to look for a replay, which might actually have an impact.
   3231. jmurph Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5955329)
I assume there are multiple high level zooms on a daily basis to deal with the fact that we're going to just hear a steady stream of ####! and ####!.
   3232. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:31 PM (#5955336)
Truly the real tragedy is that we won't get to hear Carlos Boozer on every rebound.
   3233. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:39 PM (#5955338)
Truly the real tragedy is that we won't get to hear Carlos Boozer on every rebound.

But we do get at least 8 games of Melo. Gimme that ####!
   3234. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5955339)
don't forget:

board man gets paid.
   3235. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:41 PM (#5955340)
Hollinger ($ Athletic) with a pretty good piece on open questions with the current plan.

In a normal season, training camps open the final week in September. Obviously, that won’t be happening this year, because the NBA Finals will still be going on. Reporting from our Shams Charania indicates that the draft and free agency would take place shortly after the last possible Finals date of October 12.

The end-game, in all likelihood, is to start the 2020-21 season on Christmas. That would give players some semblance of an offseason, and also buys the league more time for solutions that could allow fans in arenas. But few expect the league to start later than Christmas, given that those games are a gold mine in TV ratings.

Besides, they can only push the start back so far. Even with a Christmas start, you’re looking at every date on the NBA calendar getting pushed back more than two months. That means the trade deadline and All-Star Game are in April, the Finals are in August, and the Knicks aren’t mathematically eliminated until May. After the season, the draft wouldn’t happen until late August or early September, and “summer league” becomes “autumn league.”

And then, inevitably, the question arises of 2021-22. Does the league stick it out on this new calendar format, or does it try to drag everything back toward the October-to-June cycle of the past?
   3236. Booey Posted: June 04, 2020 at 01:57 PM (#5955343)
Other ideas to make it fair and give teams with better records their typical homecourt advantage:

- Instruct the refs to direct all bullsh!t calls in favor of the home team.

- Pipe in pre-recorded crowd noise to cheer vigorously for the home team and boo mercilessly for the road team, complete with audible (and personalized) taunts. "You suck, Westbrick!", the whole "crowd" chanting "Flop-per! Flop-per!" when Harden is at the line, etc.

(Why no, I don't dislike the Rockets. Why do you ask? ;-)
   3237. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:14 PM (#5955344)
Does the league stick it out on this new calendar format, or does it try to drag everything back toward the October-to-June cycle of the past?

I mentioned - only a couple of days before the league shut down in March - that a Hawks executive pitched a late December start for the regular season at an exclusive sports analytics forum at MIT. and the idea had ZERO to do with COVID-19, but rather, it was to avoid most football and to "own the summer." an NBA official confirmed the league was looking closely at the idea.

that's why I consistently have said that the 2019-20 season would finish in some fashion. Backing up the start of the season, by months, already was in serious discussion anyway.
   3238. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:36 PM (#5955352)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn

NBA has set an August 25 Draft Lottery and October 15 Draft, sources say.


Per Woj, the restart plan passed 29-1. Shams says Portland voted no.

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn

As the Knicks season ends now, President Leon Rose will soon begin his search for a new head coach -- with Tom Thibodeau a frontrunner out of the gate, sources tell ESPN.
   3239. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:40 PM (#5955355)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania

Sources: The NBA informed the Board of Governors of scheduled dates:

- Training camp: June 30, July 7 travel to Orlando
- 2019-20 season: July 31
- Free agency: Oct. 18
- 2020-21 targets: Nov. 10 training camp, Dec. 1 opening night (can remain fluid)


Shams is crushing Woj on specifics here.
   3240. Rally Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:55 PM (#5955357)
almost 2,000 rooms still left over for family, groupies, etc.


Having your family and groupies all in the same hotel is a logistics nightmare.
   3241. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:32 PM (#5955362)
I mean, these are extraordinary times, we all have to make sacrifices.
   3242. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:46 PM (#5955367)
Think about the difficulty of accommodating multiple sets of groupies!

"You're my Milwaukee side piece, so you get the interior room. The New York side piece gets the corner room."
   3243. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:08 PM (#5955383)
The solution seems obvious: a play-in tournament for the groupies. They are going to have to quarantine ahead of time anyway. Dikembe Mutombo can referee.
   3244. Willard Baseball Posted: June 04, 2020 at 06:14 PM (#5955396)
Opponent: Harlond

Lineup for Willard Baseball:
Starters
Payton-95/96 (36)
Jordan-87/88 (36)
Vince Carter--00/01 (30)
Dirk-06/07 (36)
Draymond-15/16 (36)
Bench
Ewing-89/90 (18)
Isiah-84/85 (12)
Iverson-00/01 (18)
Millsap-15/16 (12)
Sloan-66/67 (6)

This is a tough matchup for my team. Here are the problems my team faces

Slowing down David Robinson. There will be 18 minutes of the game when Robinson is guarded by Draymond. During those 18 minutes I will need to rely on steals and attacking to slow him down.
Harlond has good 3 points shooters.
Harlond can run multiple looks at MJ.

I also have several advantages.
Harlond is going to struggle to generate offense. I start 3 defensive players of the year that were all tremendous on ball defenders. I do not see how he creates offense against me.
Ben Simmons is a major part of his offense...how long until MJ/AI/Draymond trash talk gets in his head this series? His goal is to run Simmons/Robinson PNR..I love my matchup on this.
I will win most of the iso scoring matchups in this series, and in a long, drawn out series I should dominate the end of the game due to shot creation.
I have several players who lead the NBA in steals going against a team without elite ballhandling. I should get several steals.

We will pressure the ballhandlers and make them play faster than they want to. I am not worried about iso scoring or PNR from Harlond, so the only vulnerable thing we have is Robinson vs Draymond for 18 minutes. We can double guards and do some trapping to negate this if it is a problem. Draymond/MJ/GP, all great at getting steals. Even Iverson (who will only play 18 minutes) lead the league in steals.

Offensively, the plan is simple. Dray (38% from 3) and Dirk will spot up while MJ drives. When Robinson is in the game without Ewing, Robinson has to come out of the lane and guard either Draymond/Dirk. Dirk is a lethal spot up shooter, and the lane should be wide open at times for MJ/VC

During the bench units, I think this is a game Iverson can have success off the dribble and in shot creation.
   3245. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 06:54 PM (#5955401)
I'm having a hard time with this one. I feel like it's extremely close as laid out, but one team has made what I view as a critical gameplan error and it's going to cost them. This was a really fun one to think about.
   3246. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:40 PM (#5955409)
This is the closest matchup yet by my system. Less than a 10th of a point separates them.
   3247. Harlond Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:57 PM (#5955425)
I’ll do my rebuttal tomorrow morning, but I did want to clarify that I’m not gonna run Robinson/Simmons PnRs. Rather I will have both Robinson and Simmons run separate PnRs with each acting as the pick man.
   3248. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:34 PM (#5955434)
ESPN Women's Hoops
@ESPN_WomenHoop
BREAKING: The WNBA is proposing a 22-game regular season, starting July 24, with the league playing at IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida, multiple sources have confirmed to ESPN's Mechelle Voepel.
   3249. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:47 PM (#5955448)
NBA on TNT
@NBAonTNT
·
1h
“The belief is that we would not have to shut down if a single player tested positive.”

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver discusses the potential impact of a player testing positive for coronavirus as they prepare for a season restart.
   3250. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:49 PM (#5955449)
It's funny because even though we're back to the cream of the crop, these two winners' bracket semis have both been easy calls for me. Of course, the last one, I was on the wrong side of history, but I really felt like Lange articulated the perfect gameplan and had the perfect personnel to stop LeBron & Co.. The fact that JJ still won handily according to the voters makes me wonder if anyone has any real chance of beating LeBron James. I guess in theory the best chance would be whoever wins this.

I also don't feel like this game is particularly close. As with the last one, when I looked at matchups, the answer seemed pretty clear to me -- not that one team is in the abstract way better than the others but I feel quite confident about how this will play out. I think this format works better if we all make up our own minds but... this was an easy one for me.
   3251. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:26 AM (#5955452)
Peter Vecsey @PeterVecsey1
Do, it’s official...the NBA season is now going to drag on as long as the last two minutes of an NBA game.
Mitch Lawrence @Mitch_Lawrence
The NBA is targeting a Dec. 1 start to the 2020-21 season. This will be the perfect season to open on Dec. 25, on a permanent basis. For more and more fans, the Christmas Day games have become the season opener.

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
These are the kind of complex issues that await the NBA's return in Orlando. D'Antoni and Gentry share an agent, Warren LeGarie, who told ESPN that he worried about "stigmas" getting assigned to older coaches with these possible protocols.
Jonathan Feigen @Jonathan_Feigen
Adam Silver on TNT said "certain coaches" might not be able to be on benches when play resumes. Was not clear whether he meant those with certain conditions or those including Mike D'Antoni 65 and older. D'Antoni has said plans to coach in Fla., trusts the NBA safety protocols.
Adam Zagoria @AdamZagoria
The NBA G League has canceled the remainder of its season.
Tim Reynolds @ByTimReynolds
Adam Silver says it was Michael Jordan who insisted the NBA playoffs not be "gimmicky" and that the standard postseason comes as close to normal as possible.
Frank Isola @TheFrankIsola
Charles Barkley & Charles Oakley definitely have one thing in common. They both often refer to the Nets as “New Jersey.”
   3252. tshipman Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:05 AM (#5955458)
I also don't feel like this game is particularly close. As with the last one, when I looked at matchups, the answer seemed pretty clear to me -- not that one team is in the abstract way better than the others but I feel quite confident about how this will play out. I think this format works better if we all make up our own minds but... this was an easy one for me.


These teams are very, very similar from an aggregate standpoint. They take a similar number of 3s, shoot a similar number of FTs, and have an *identical* number of steals and blocks.

The teams are constructed very differently, with one relying on isolation scoring, and the other using a more classic PnR model.

I wonder if NJ and I are identifying the same gameplan question or not. To me, I think Harlond could have gone big against Willard and really punished Willard's undersized bigs. HoGrant, Moses and David Robinson should be able to feast against Draymond and Dirk.
   3253. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 05, 2020 at 02:08 AM (#5955460)
To me, I think Harlond could have gone big against Willard and really punished Willard's undersized bigs. HoGrant, Moses and David Robinson should be able to feast against Draymond and Dirk.
That's what I'm thinking as well. I'm trying to mentally measure if that advantage outweighs the perimeter iso scoring that Willard has in spades. I haven't decided.
   3254. Harlond Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:14 AM (#5955475)
Rebuttal

Willard suggests MJ or Draymond or AI will get into Simmons’s head with trash talk. We would know already if Draymond could do that; he can’t. Simmons watched The Last Dance, so he knows MJ is just an #######. As for AI, the idea that trash talk works in this tournament is not very credible for anyone other than maybe the Mailman.

As I mentioned earlier, I’m not using Simmons and Robinson together in the PnR; instead I’m using each as the screener/roll man.

Jordan obviously is a premier iso scorer, but Oscar Robertson is also one of the greats. Willard probably does have an advantage in iso scoring, but iso scoring often results in contested mid-range shots, which is what my defense is trying to force. Even if Willard wins most of the iso scoring battles, we should win the 3Pt shooting battle by a considerable margin (especially since he plans to double Robinson for a third of the game), and 3 beats 2. And that doesn’t account for our FTA advantage.

Willard challenges our ball-handling, but we’ll have Robertson, Simmons, or Cassell on the court at all times. Sure, he’ll get some steals, but Jones and Simmons both had league-leading steals totals, and we have other guys with high steal totals. On a team basis, based on steals per 36 minutes, Willard’s team is only 2.1 steals per 36 minute ahead of us, and that leaves out Robertson’s steals. This is not a significant advantage for Willard.

Willard says he has a simple game plan: spot up Draymond and Dirk while MJ drives. That is the exact game plan my defense is aimed at slowing down. Neither Draymond nor Dirk are off-the-dribble 3Pt shooters. Their 3Pt shooting can be taken away, and Robinson and whoever we have on Draymond have the defensive chops to do that. Nobody is going to entirely keep Jordan out of the lane, but by laying off him outside of 16 feet and focusing on preventing the drive, we have a good chance of reducing his ability to do that. And in Robertson, Pierce, Butler, Jones, Simmons, and Cassell, we have six defenders with the height, length, and quickness to have a fair chance of success.
   3255. Harlond Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:32 AM (#5955479)
To me, I think Harlond could have gone big against Willard and really punished Willard's undersized bigs. HoGrant, Moses and David Robinson should be able to feast against Draymond and Dirk.
I thought about going twin towers. But that means Moses has to guard Draymond, and while I don't think Draymond can beat anybody we're likely to have on him, I'm pretty sure he can beat Moses. That opens up the middle in a way Willard would indeed have feasted on. I could have tried Grant on Draymond and Robinson on Dirk, but while Grant can guard Draymond pretty effectively, I don't think that Grant posting up against Dirk or Grant getting 2-3 more offensive rebounds than we might otherwise get (while surrendering a significant part of my advantage in outside shooting ability) is the winning combination against a team with Jordan on it.
   3256. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:50 AM (#5955481)
I think Ewing and Milsap ready to go also mitigate a bit the size advantage Harlond has.
   3257. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:42 AM (#5955495)
I'm having a hard time with this one. I feel like it's extremely close as laid out, but one team has made what I view as a critical gameplan error and it's going to cost them. This was a really fun one to think about.

Was that error drafting MJ?
   3258. spivey Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:44 AM (#5955499)
If taking the ball out of Jordan's hands so Draymond can attack Moses off the dribble is your counter to playing Moses more, that sounds like a win-win.
   3259. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:46 AM (#5955500)
Was that error drafting MJ?

I'm just saying...in a league populated by the world's best players, not sure I would make my first pick a guy who quits when the media pressure gets a little too intense for his genteel sensibilities.
   3260. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:57 PM (#5955536)
I should have made the draft A-Z for the first round, then Z-A for every round after.
   3261. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:09 PM (#5955541)
Yeah, the uniform greatness means players who are at the top end, great on offense and defense (like MJ and LeBron) have a huge advantage towards team building.

It is idiosyncratic of me, but I think Willard drafting Payton is one of the great picks. The two of them (He and MJ) have an awesome defensive synergy and can score plenty well. That fierce backcourt keeps tipping the balance for me.
   3262. JJ1986 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:26 PM (#5955551)
As a point of clarification, how many flagrant-points does Draymond have by now in the tournament?
   3263. spivey Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5955553)
I'm not sure I love the synergy, frankly. It's good because one of the guys is Michael ####### Jordan, but I think having a starting backcourt that can't shoot could bite you.
   3264. tshipman Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:34 PM (#5955556)
I'm not sure I love the synergy, frankly. It's good because one of the guys is Michael ####### Jordan, but I think having a starting backcourt that can't shoot could bite you.


Yeah. You can't have two guys gambling for steals in the back court at the same time. I mean, maybe you can, because it's GP and Jordan, but in a typical environment, you'll get killed every time the gamble doesn't work. GP and Jordan also operate in the same hunting grounds. Both are right handed players who like to sit in the post.

Reggie + Steph are way more additive on offense, IMO.

   3265. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 05, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5955577)
GP and Jordan also operate in the same hunting grounds. Both are right handed players who like to sit in the post.
This is why I voted the way I did. Oscar and Butler and Simmons and Pierce are all bigger and stronger than Jordan and Payton. For them to play their game, it's just not going to work out that well.
   3266. DCA Posted: June 05, 2020 at 03:05 PM (#5955593)
My first missed vote. I would have voted for Harlond but not particularly confidently.
   3267. Jtsports01 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 04:23 PM (#5955631)
Lineup for JTSports
Starters
Bird 36
Brow 36
Frazier 36
jokic 36
moncief 30
Bench
Battier 18
Mullin 6
Oladipo 30
Elton Brand 6
Thurmond 6

Advantages –Defense/rebounding/passing.
I feel like 4 of my 5 starters are superior defensive players to his (using Webber as a starter), and the Gasol/Jokic difference is not nearly enough to make it up. Looking at steal rates, my starter's average 9.6 steals a game (vs 7.1 for Winter) and since he has no primary ball-handlers I would expect this number will go up. My two players coming off the bench are also excellent defensively. In addition he doesn't have particularly great rebounders for a team in this tournament and I expect I will get another 3-4 possessions a game from offensive rebounds.
Winter says that the ball will sing because of his team's great passing but the two best passers in this game are Bird and Jokic, while his best passers are his least efficient scorers. My starting 5 averages 5.88 assists per game, while his averages only 4.84.
Rotation
Frazier/Moncrief/Oladipo combine for 96 minutes at the 2 guard spots
Battier plays 18 minutes or 6 each for Bird/Brow/Jokic
We play 6 minutes with a Mullin/Brand/Thurmond frontcourt
Defense
Pressure there ballhandlers with our great perimeter defenders, making it hard for them to get into their offense. McGrady, Ginobli will have size advantages but we should be able to do a good job of keeping them from getting to the rim. We'll have Durant and Battier split the time guarding Durant.
Offense
Lot's of ball movement, trying to get the defense moving and move the ball quickly. We plan on running a lot of actions off the ball for Bird and Davis with Jokic or Frazier finding them for quality looks. If Durant is guarding Bird I would expect him to get good looks as 2014 Durant was not great at tracking movement off the ball or making good rotations. I also don't see anyone on his team who is going to be able to stop Frazier, Moncrief, Mullin and Oladipo, (7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and 4.9 ft attempts per game) from getting to the basket.
   3268. Howie Menckel Posted: June 05, 2020 at 05:31 PM (#5955660)
BREAKING: Captain Obvious has hacked into Woj's Twitter account

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
1m
For those visiting Disney World this summer and hoping to see an active NBA player roaming the parks and getting on rides, well, the NBPA made it clear that won't be happening for players, nor the family members joining them, sources said.

.................

(side note: at NBA All-Star weekend in San Antonio about 25 years ago, the league rented out Great Adventure on Saturday night. so indeed NBA current and former players and the families were everywhere. it just wasn't open to the public, alas.)
   3269. Jtsports01 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 07:14 PM (#5955704)
Sorry, my post should have said Davis and Battier would be guarding Durant
   3270. tshipman Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:32 PM (#5955738)
Every part of this tweet sounds like a bad idea.


Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
2-3 preseason games. 1,600 maximum capacity in Orlando. No plan for anti-drug blood testing. Potential crowd noise via NBA 2K sounds.
   3271. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 06, 2020 at 02:21 AM (#5955764)
#2 WILLARD 10, #14 HARLOND 5
Willard advances to face JJ in last undefeated-team matchup; Harlond to one-loss bracket

Harlond made it competitive, but in the end Willard voters underlined two things: one, the decision to put Robinson on Dirk, taking him away from the rim, and two, the inability of the defenders to guard Michael Jordan. Harlond voters, meanwhile, thought Robinson would feast on Draymond and that would be a key edge. In the end it was Willard Baseball's team, led by Michael Jordan, that took the W, setting up a matchup with JJ's team led by LeBron James, the matchup between the two most prominent GOAT candidates that has been circled on the calendar since the draft order came out.

Willard voters:
<< Robinson on Dirk and out of the lane I think was not the right defense to play. I see Willard being able to get to the rim>>
<< I think it's a mistake for the Admiral to defend Willard's best outside shooter, Dirk, who takes almost none of his shots near the rim. That removes the only rim protector from the paint at all times... Second, I don't think Simmons or Pierce can hang with MJ >>
<< I think the key difference is in defense, where Jordan and Payton lock down the perimeter and Draymond anchors the interior and provides great help defense. I don't see Jordan being denied >>
<< A team with a GOAT candidate is always the default likely winner against a team without one, and I don't see anything to overcome that presumption. >>
<< My vote came down to using Pierce as a secondary Jordan defender when you have a perfectly good Jimmy Butler sitting right there. >>

Harlond voters:
<< Tough call. I think Robinson will murder Draymond inside and I think he'll give Dirk fits on D, but chasing Dirk out to the perimeter will also give up rim protection and open up the lane for MJ and co. >>
<< I think Harlond's team fits better and fits well to face an MJ/Dirk team. There's numerous guys who I think can defend Jordan and Dirk effectively. >>
<< Draymond is a great help defender, but cannot hold up against guys like David Robinson or Moses Malone for 36 minutes. >>

NEXT UP: We're moving back to the one-loss bracket, when we have JT Sports vs. Winter's Night. JT's writeup is here and we're waiting for Winter's. Enjoy the weekend; votes due Monday 12 PM Eastern.


   3272. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 06, 2020 at 02:39 AM (#5955766)
Sorry, score was 12-5.
   3273. Harlond Posted: June 06, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5955787)
I'm not really salty, as I expected to lose. BUT, I don't really understand the people saying I shouldn't assign the Admiral to Dirk because that will cost me rim protection. The Admiral can't guard Jordan or Payton or Carter, so that leaves Draymond. But Draymond spends very little time in the lane, and since the year selected here is one where he hit 3Pt at a good clip, he's going to spend all his time out there. Indeed, Willard says his plan was to spot up Draymond and Dirk and let MJ operate. So there's no one I can put the Admiral on who isn't going to take him away from the rim. By assigning him to Dirk, I have an excellent chance to take away Willard's second best offensive option. I suppose I could go with a straight zone, and maybe that's the right answer. If that's what the critics are thinking, OK, fair enough, but otherwise I don't think this criticism makes sense.
   3274. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: June 06, 2020 at 11:09 AM (#5955789)
3273 - I didn't write up a rationale, but that was a key factor in my vote. I don't have a good answer for you, but with Robinson hanging around the perimeter so much you're just not going to be able to stop his team (and will struggle some on the defensive boards). He will get in the lane, and then Robinson's choices are collapsing and trying to help, thus leaving Dirk wide open (or Draymond or VC when the defense rotates to cover) or you let his guys get to the rim and you have zero secondary rim protection - and no f'in way is Pierce slowing down MJ's drives*. I agree with others that you should have gone big with Moses/Grant and forced that type of mismatch on the other side (or maybe even Simmons on Dirk, but that causes different problems for your offense). I think you have to punish him for playing so small.

*I don't see Jimmy as a small ball PF at all, but I can see Pierce there.
   3275. spivey Posted: June 06, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5955806)
I'm not really salty, as I expected to lose. BUT, I don't really understand the people saying I shouldn't assign the Admiral to Dirk because that will cost me rim protection. The Admiral can't guard Jordan or Payton or Carter, so that leaves Draymond. But Draymond spends very little time in the lane, and since the year selected here is one where he hit 3Pt at a good clip, he's going to spend all his time out there. Indeed, Willard says his plan was to spot up Draymond and Dirk and let MJ operate. So there's no one I can put the Admiral on who isn't going to take him away from the rim. By assigning him to Dirk, I have an excellent chance to take away Willard's second best offensive option. I suppose I could go with a straight zone, and maybe that's the right answer. If that's what the critics are thinking, OK, fair enough, but otherwise I don't think this criticism makes sense.

I think you can have Robinson hang off of Draymond way more than Dirk. tshipman made a good point that Draymond played in an offense that absolutely maximized the number of 3s he would take, in a high-shooting 3pt era, and only took a few a game, pretty much all wide open. And we should remember, teams were sagging off of him that year and daring him and Iggy to beat them from range. It wasn't uncommon for Draymond to miss a couple of 3s, miss them, and just shut it down for the game (he'd also have games like Game 7 where LeBron was sagging off a bunch and he makes several). But in general, I don't think you worry at all about him bombing the way you do with Dirk who I think could reasonably take 20 3s if you're sagging off him the whole game.

I thought some of the indidivual matchups and minutes weren't ideal for Harlond, but I also view that as squishy. We see teams constantly tinkering, and I think by the 2nd quarter of Game 2 you'd see Butler taking most of those minutes. I think Pierce on Dirk, Jones on VC, and Butler on MJ is pretty solid.
   3276. tshipman Posted: June 06, 2020 at 01:35 PM (#5955808)
I'm not really salty, as I expected to lose. BUT, I don't really understand the people saying I shouldn't assign the Admiral to Dirk because that will cost me rim protection. The Admiral can't guard Jordan or Payton or Carter, so that leaves Draymond. But Draymond spends very little time in the lane, and since the year selected here is one where he hit 3Pt at a good clip, he's going to spend all his time out there. Indeed, Willard says his plan was to spot up Draymond and Dirk and let MJ operate. So there's no one I can put the Admiral on who isn't going to take him away from the rim. By assigning him to Dirk, I have an excellent chance to take away Willard's second best offensive option. I suppose I could go with a straight zone, and maybe that's the right answer. If that's what the critics are thinking, OK, fair enough, but otherwise I don't think this criticism makes sense.


I think the voters would have punished you for it, but I wonder if in real life you could pull a Steve Kerr and have David Robinson be "guarding" Gary Payton and just play a one man zone.

Payton is most dangerous as a passer in the PnR, running the floor in transition, and in the post in the half court. None of Willard's bigs are particularly dangerous PnR finishers--maybe Ewing, but Robinson would guard Ewing when he's playing. You don't have to worry about Dirk or Draymond rolling. GP was a bad 3p shooter, even with the short line, so you live with him pulling off the dribble.

I think playing zone against Jordan is just the right decision, btw. Jordan famously struggled against zone defenses in the Olympics, and while Dirk is a pretty good zone buster, you can play a modified zone where you just never leave Dirk.

Edit: 2007 Dirk also is notoriously incapable of punishing smaller defenders.
   3277. sardonic Posted: June 06, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5955818)
Yeah, I actually think Harlonds team is well set up to play on D similarly to the Bogut Warriors team that won in 2015. Have the Admiral cheat off Draymond and protect the rim as a goalie, essentially soft doubling on MJ, Glove or whatever the primary action is. I think Pierce can match up okay with Dirk who can't specifically punish his relative lack of quickness. Then you have Butler, Oscar and Jones, three pretty long athletic wing defenders switch everything/rotate on the perimeter involving MJ, Vince and Glove knowing that you have the Admiral protecting the rim, that only Carter can really hurt you out from three and that you can recover to Draymond, who had a slow release. Ron Adams is your assistant coach.
   3278. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2020 at 03:18 PM (#5955822)
I think you can have Robinson hang off of Draymond way more than Dirk. tshipman made a good point that Draymond played in an offense that absolutely maximized the number of 3s he would take, in a high-shooting 3pt era, and only took a few a game, pretty much all wide open.
96% of Draymond's 3s were assisted, so he's basically completely dependent on his man drifting away, or refusing to come out on a pick-and-pop. He also takes almost all his 3s from straight away — less than 10% of his threes are from the corners — which means Robinson could stay in the lane area and force Jordan or Payton to either challenge the double in the lane or give up the ball to Green. Given the choices, I'd be extremely comfortable forcing Green to take a whole bunch of 3s to beat me.
   3279. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 06, 2020 at 08:16 PM (#5955872)
I think it's crazy honestly that people are treating Draymond as a good distance shooter for this exercise based on one 39% season when (a) he has never shot anywhere near that well in any other season, (b) it's not a huge sample (statistical error is +/- 6%), and (c) it might be the greatest single season shooting environment for any player ever (given teammates and scheme).
   3280. Willard Baseball Posted: June 06, 2020 at 09:49 PM (#5955886)
If you are not going to treat Draymond that way as a shooter, then we also have to discredit TShipman idea that Dirk can't handle being guarded by smaller players.
   3281. Willard Baseball Posted: June 06, 2020 at 09:53 PM (#5955887)
And I do agree that Draymond probably isn't a 38% 3 point shooter. But I also don't think MJ and Payton are as poor of 3 point shooters as the board (specifically TShip) is acting. We really don't think that MJ/Payton couldn't have shot 3's decently with modern NBA training?
   3282. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 06, 2020 at 11:07 PM (#5955891)
And I do agree that Draymond probably isn't a 38% 3 point shooter. But I also don't think MJ and Payton are as poor of 3 point shooters as the board (specifically TShip) is acting. We really don't think that MJ/Payton couldn't have shot 3's decently with modern NBA training?
space. jam.
   3283. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 07, 2020 at 02:13 AM (#5955902)
I took a bit of a look at the voting on the LeBron and Jordan teams. The short version is that most voters believe they can be stopped, it just hasn't lined up for any individual matchup. 8 voters have voted on all 6 of these, from "most star-driven" to least:

Moses: 6-0
FancyPantsHandle: 5-1 (Hombre over Jordan)
Mellow Mouse: 5-1 (Lange over LeBron)
Athletic Supporter: 5-1 (Lange over LeBron)
jmurph: 4-2 (Hombre and NJ over Jordan)
Booey: 3-3 (Lucky over LeBron, Hombre and Harlond over Jordan)
Dandy Little Glove Man: 3-3 (Jordan 3-0, LeBron 0-3)
Hot Wheeling American: 3-3 (Lucky and Lange over LeBron, NJ over Jordan)

Collectively this set of 8 neutral core voters have voted against the two GOATs in every matchup, and seven of the eight have cast a vote against a GOAT. So I think at least in theory, the LeBron and Jordan teams appear to be more beatable than their record would suggest, it just needs to line up for enough at once.

EDIT: New thread is up.
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