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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6831 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1301. . . . . . . Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:04 PM (#5840924)
This is a very weird game. Feels like a Thursday in January.
   1302. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:21 PM (#5840926)
Taking 35-footers to break out of his slump isn't working for Steph.
   1303. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:27 PM (#5840928)
Curry woke up.
   1304. sardonic Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5840929)
Every time Breen says "No Hesitation!" when Gerald Green shoots, there's a voice in my head that asks that maybe Green should hesitate a little.
   1305. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5840930)
That probably was a legit push off by Harden, but....
   1306. spivey Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:30 PM (#5840931)
Houston really sucked the last several minutes.
   1307. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:31 PM (#5840933)
Looney has been huge in this game. Harden and CP3 have been good, but not enough
   1308. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:34 PM (#5840934)
that has to be a kick ball, right?
   1309. sardonic Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:35 PM (#5840935)
Curry and Klay essentially equaled CP3 and Harden, but the Warriors's bench really came up big after being a no show all playoffs until now. Picked a good time. Strength in Numbers indeed.
   1310. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:36 PM (#5840936)
nevermind. that went off harden's foot.

otoh, why is dennis schroeder wearing a rockets jersey?
   1311. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:37 PM (#5840937)
Curry wowy. Poor Rockets. Hopefully they find something in the postgame referee memo to console themselves with.
   1312. phredbird Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:38 PM (#5840938)

man, this was a bad loss. 7 points up in Q4 with harden and CP3 at home, and GSW without durant.

those guys need to really do a hard look at themselves in the offseason.
   1313. sardonic Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:42 PM (#5840941)
Warriors bench of Looney (20 min), Quinn Cook (16 min), Shaun Livingston (14 min), Jonas Jerebko (12 min), Jordan Bell (11 min) and Alonzo McKinnie (7 min) combined for 33 points on 24 shots. That's the game right there.
   1314. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:47 PM (#5840942)
trade machine: who says no?

HOU: fred van vleet, norman powell, james johnson
TOR: chris paul, kelly olynyk
MIA: kyle lowry
   1315. spivey Posted: May 10, 2019 at 11:59 PM (#5840945)
Milwaukee/Golden State lets do it.
   1316. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 11, 2019 at 12:00 AM (#5840946)
Milwaukee/Golden State lets do it.
i think you skipped a step.
   1317. tshipman Posted: May 11, 2019 at 01:23 AM (#5840955)
The Rockets advancing in a six game sweep is very impressive. Congratulations to a top-notch organization.
   1318. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 11, 2019 at 02:16 AM (#5840957)
Christ Paul, postgame: "You say, 'Make the other guys beat you,' and they damn sure did that." Later on, "It's all a blur now. We lost, and that's... that's stupid."
   1319. Lassus Posted: May 11, 2019 at 07:44 AM (#5840964)
The Rockets advancing in a six game sweep is very impressive. Congratulations to a top-notch organization.

I don't get it.
   1320. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 11, 2019 at 09:13 AM (#5840967)
Christ Paul

Not sure if that is a typo, or a sign of exasperation.
   1321. Booey Posted: May 11, 2019 at 11:39 AM (#5840982)
The Rockets advancing in a six game sweep is very impressive. Congratulations to a top-notch organization.

I don't get it.


I think he's implying that once the Rockets are finished tabulating the REAL scores based on all the points they lost via missed calls, their totally impartial and unbiased investigation will reveal that they actually should have won all 6 games comfortably.



(i.e. the Rockets are world class whiners)
   1322. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 11, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5840985)
Christ Paul has died, Christ Paul has risen, Christ Paul will come again as soon as the Rockets get their appeal heard.
   1323. tshipman Posted: May 11, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5840987)
The Rockets advancing in a six game sweep is very impressive. Congratulations to a top-notch organization.

I don't get it.


After the first game of the series, the Rockets whined mightily in the press about how they felt like they weren't gifted enough bullshit fouls.

Further, they leaked to ESPN a report that they commissioned, detailing all the missed fouls that they felt like prevented them from winning game 7 of last years' series. It should be mentioned that in that game, the Rockets missed 27 straight 3pers, and yet still whined that they lost because of missed calls.

The Rockets are concerned that their strategy of figuring out ways to manipulate officiating in their favor is less effective in the playoffs because senior referees get more assignments in the playoffs. The more senior referees view all the gamesmanship from the Rockets as so much nonsense and generally don't put up with it.

Edit: Booey has the quicker, more straightforward explanation in 1321, but I thought I'd explain the missing context.
   1324. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 11, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5841004)
Christ Paul has died, Christ Paul has risen, Christ Paul will come again as soon as the Rockets get their appeal heard.
Christ Paul's season died for your sins.
   1325. Moeball Posted: May 11, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5841008)
Anyone know what the record is for most points by a player in the second half and fourth quarter of a playoff game?
   1326. Moeball Posted: May 11, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5841014)
Now I feel silly. Record is held by a Warrior NOT named Steph. Sleepy Floyd 39 in the 2nd half including 29 in the 4th against the Lakers back in 1987. I should have remembered, after all, I watched that game!
   1327. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 11, 2019 at 03:46 PM (#5841020)
tship, I generally agree with your take in 1323, but am curious: do you have a source for your last paragraph?
   1328. tshipman Posted: May 11, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5841022)
tship, I generally agree with your take in 1323, but am curious: do you have a source for your last paragraph?


Lowe's article on the Rockets:


The Rockets also argue in their memo that veteran officials "exhibit the most bias against our players."

"The reason we are in this situation," the memo says, "is the efforts made to improve the referees have been too slow, not extensive enough, and have been held back by entrenched referees who are resisting reform." The Rockets recommended that referee assignments in the postseason should be determined "exclusively" by call accuracy without regard to experience level.


(I will admit to some editorializing on my characterization of that)
   1329. KronicFatigue Posted: May 11, 2019 at 04:14 PM (#5841025)
To slightly curb the intentional abuse of landing-area fouls, what if shooters had to remain behind the arc both before and after the shot? That if you jump forward and land across the arc, it's only a 2 pointer?
   1330. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 11, 2019 at 05:00 PM (#5841044)
1329 seems both so obvious and so right that there has to be a reason why it’s not the rule already...
   1331. jmurph Posted: May 11, 2019 at 05:19 PM (#5841048)
It's totally normal to land a bit in front of where you shoot, so I don't think that would be a workable rule change. I think it's probably roughly fine the way it is, referees just need to do the work to avoid falling for the Harden-esque leg kick.

   1332. jmurph Posted: May 11, 2019 at 05:20 PM (#5841050)
Does anyone feel good about the Raptors in a must-win? I know homecourt is big in game 7s, but still.
   1333. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: May 11, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5841077)
It's totally normal to land a bit in front of where you shoot, so I don't think that would be a workable rule change.

It would effectively push the three-point line back a bit and make the corner three more difficult to come by. Would it be such a bad thing to disincentivize the three point shot just a little?
   1334. sardonic Posted: May 11, 2019 at 06:34 PM (#5841087)
Missed this until now. It's hard to describe how good it feels to take down Houston in the way that it unfolded.

HT Marcus Thompson II in The Athletic:
HOUSTON — Draymond Green stood outside the visiting locker room at the Toyota Center, greeting teammates as they came in. When Stephen Curry made his way through the crowd, he looked straight at Green — before they slapped hands and bumped chests — and screamed, "Kick me off the court again, boy!"

There is a story behind that.

On the night before Friday’s Game 6 of the Western Conference semifinals, after arriving from the Bay Area, Curry wanted to get some shots up at Toyota Center. The Warriors’ do-it-all manager, Eric Housen, booked the court from 7 p.m. to 8 p.m. so Curry could work on his shot. Somehow, Rockets guard Chris Paul got wind. He decided to go to Toyota Center to get shots up, nixing Curry’s reservations. The Warriors’ point guard offered to stick to half a court, but Paul wasn’t having it. Curry was kicked off the Toyota Center court.

Hence: "Kick me off the court again, boy!" And Green replied to Curry’s taunt by screaming, "Kick him off! Kick him off!"

The lesson from the Warriors’ 118-113 win to eliminate the Rockets and advance to the Western Conference finals was loud and clear. It’s going to take more than gamesmanship to beat the Warriors.
   1335. Booey Posted: May 11, 2019 at 06:47 PM (#5841090)
#1334 - Chris Paul is an a$$. Christ Paul - hell, even Cliff Paul - wouldn't have been so petty.

And honestly, what even gives CP3 the right to do that? He doesn't own the Toyota Center.
   1336. sardonic Posted: May 11, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5841091)
Chris Paul is like an underwritten high school sports movie villain.
   1337. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 11, 2019 at 06:59 PM (#5841093)
So does anybody out there in Laker Land think that Vogel, how you say, “moves the needle”?
   1338. PJ Martinez Posted: May 11, 2019 at 07:25 PM (#5841099)
Have Vogel and Kidd worked together before? If I was going to coach and NBA team, I would not be thrilled to have Jason Kidd on my staff (both because I think Kidd is a bad coach and because I assume Kidd would immediately start plotting to replace me).
   1339. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 11, 2019 at 08:09 PM (#5841108)
So does anybody out there in Laker Land think that Vogel, how you say, “moves the needle”?


No. But I am OK with it. Vogel strikes me as being competent and as being a pretty good defensive coach. He had pretty good teams in Indiana, bad ones in ORL, but if you look at the rosters of the teams he had, those were reasonable outcomes. There is some low-level spec that they have a line on Irving, and that Irving did not want to play for Lue again. That could easily be bullshitt ofc, and they just broke off/screwed up negotiations with Lue.

As to Kidd/1338 that is just Leadership 101 stuff, a course the Lakers FO appeared to have either failed or gotten a $14.99 on-line certification in. You make it clear to Kidd, diplomatically, that he is there to support Vogel and to help Lonzo Ball. But the fact that these things are obvious does not mean the Lakers ownership/FO will do it, or that Kidd will adhere to them even if they spell it out. But having Kidd as an asst on a team trying to develop Ball makes some sense, in spite of Kidd's rep and track record.
   1340. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 11, 2019 at 08:33 PM (#5841116)
I think Vogel is a good coach and thus a good hire.

Re: Kidd, I mean, it's possible that the NBA has looked at what's happened in GS and MIL and correctly concluded Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd aren't good head coaches right? Lots of rumors, but maybe planted by their agents, and we are living in too much fear

Plus, it's at least possible Kidd can learn, though there's enough smoke that "conniving weasel" does seem to be somewhat ingrained
   1341. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 11, 2019 at 08:46 PM (#5841117)
Given the scuttlebutt around the Lakers, I'm positively ecstatic that it's Vogel. His whole career, the guy's shown himself to be a solid pro coach. The only questions that matters now: Will Lebron actually allow him to be the coach? Can they actually get a max player in? My faith in Jeanie Buss being the adult in the room has been severely shaken the last few weeks, so there's a whole lot of wait-and-see going on, but Vogel is a good sign.
   1342. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 11, 2019 at 08:57 PM (#5841119)
Re: LeBron and Vogel, it's worth noting that Vogel coached two Indiana teams that played the Heatles really tough in two ECF with much less talent. I'd imagine LeBron respects him a lot as a coach (though who knows).
   1343. JC in DC Posted: May 11, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5841122)
I'm less interested in LA than I am in Houston: when I hear them say they'll "figure this out," I can't help but wonder if that means, "we count on KD not being there and GSW taking a bit of a step back towards us." Of course, that may happen, and may be true, but I'd like to see how they go about improving their team. Capela was really kinda lousy against GSW, and Houston's rebounding terrible. Tucker and Gordon give them grit and toughness for their size, but I'd think they'd trade some grit for some size. And then there's Paul, who stayed healthy through the playoffs, but didn't stay effective. They need a talent injection.
   1344. tshipman Posted: May 11, 2019 at 09:28 PM (#5841123)
Vogel is a well-calibrated hire, in that he's the most mediocre coach that wouldn't inspire outright anger in me.

Could be worse, could be Jason Kidd or Mark Jackson. I'm pretty sure there's someone better out there, and I'd rather hire someone who has a shot at being the next great Laker coach than a proven mediocrity.
   1345. tshipman Posted: May 11, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5841139)
I'm less interested in LA than I am in Houston: when I hear them say they'll "figure this out," I can't help but wonder if that means, "we count on KD not being there and GSW taking a bit of a step back towards us." Of course, that may happen, and may be true, but I'd like to see how they go about improving their team. Capela was really kinda lousy against GSW, and Houston's rebounding terrible. Tucker and Gordon give them grit and toughness for their size, but I'd think they'd trade some grit for some size. And then there's Paul, who stayed healthy through the playoffs, but didn't stay effective. They need a talent injection.


Houston's issues are all on defense. They gave up a 115.7 ORTG to the Warriors, despite the Warriors underperforming on open 3pers (Warriors only shot 32.3% on wide open 3s and 37% on open 3pers). If the Warriors had shot their season average on 3pers, the Rockets would have given up an extra 3.5 ppg, putting them squarely in historically bad defense territory.

Some of those problems might be transient. James Harden is a bad rebounder. His team gives up 4% in ORB% when he's on the court, and he's been a negative almost every year of his career. The Rockets barely play anyone who can be considered a good rebounder. Even Tucker was below average this year. Chris Paul is the best rebounder for his position on the Rockets, but that position is PG. The Rockets went from 3rd in Defensive Rebounding last year to 28th this year. Can they improve that with different role players? Maybe!

Some of those problems are structural. The Rockets offense is built around the FT, PnR and ISO. Two of those plays decline in the playoffs. The Rockets lost about 1 ppg on FTs from the RS to playoffs (19.3 to 18.5). However, their isolation and PnR suffered a bunch. Overall in the playoffs, Houston isolated on 20.5% of its possessions and got 0.98 points per possession (PPP), down from 1.06 in the regular season. Even more concerning was how easily teams were able to handle Capela. In the playoffs, Houston only got 6% of its plays to the roller in the PnR, and had a 0.96 PPP. In the regular season, that was 6.3% of the plays, and a 1.11 PPP. Plays involving the ball handler had a similar decline. The result was that due to the increased number of misses, Houston gave up MORE transition opportunities to opponents, unlike most playoff teams who see transition attempts decline.

   1346. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 02:57 AM (#5841158)
Could be worse, could be Jason Kidd or Mark Jackson. I'm pretty sure there's someone better out there, and I'd rather hire someone who has a shot at being the next great Laker coach than a proven mediocrity.


What is "proven mediocrity" here?

* Vogel is 45 years old. That's not too old to change.
* He took two Indiana teams that were hardly stuffed with talent to the ECF -- starring a pre-prime Paul George and anachronism David West (a stretch 4 who doesn't shoot 3s), with Lance Stephenson, George Hill, and Roy Hibbert supporting.
* In Orlando he had a super flawed roster -- some young talent but nowhere near enough shooting or ballhandling to be any good overall

I mean, I'm not saying he will do great for sure but I think his track record is overall pretty good, and he's young enough I think he could still be getting better. I get wanting a higher variance coach, and I don't think Vogel is very likely to be one of the top three or so coaches in the league, but I think he's a good coach and will do a good job. Given the other variance on the Lakers I don't know they need to swing for the fences coach wise -- get Leonard and have the young guys develop and they might only need a good coach to win a title.
   1347. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:49 AM (#5841174)
what in the absolute living #### is this bullshit????!Q?!
rumblings in league coaching circles have grown louder by the day that 76ers Coach Brett Brown needs an N.B.A. finals berth to keep his job. Brown, I’m told, has little chance of surviving a second-round exit.



1413. shout-out to 57i66135; that ####'s working now Posted: April 13, 2019 at 05:57 PM (#5831552)
nothing that happens this postseason will result in me calling for brett brown to be fired (i think), but if i didn't respect him for the way he's carried himself over the last 6 years, i would rip the everloving #### out of him. i see no fewer than 4 fireable offenses right now:

1: the sixers best player is a dominant 7'2, 280 lb center, with bad knees, bad hips, bad ankles, bad feet and a bad back...and yet, the sixers play a top 10 pace, making him run up and down the court until he needs an IV and an oxygen tank during commercial breaks. what the #### are you doing, masshole?

2: the sixers are comically allergic to initiating their half-court offense with a pick and roll, despite that being the most effective form of half-court offense in the NBA right now.

3: the sixers have been bottom 5 in their rate of corner 3PAs per total 3PAs in 5 of his 6 years as coach. corner 3s are the most efficient shots in the sport (other than dunks and layups), but it'll probably even out at some point, right?

4: he was the "GM" this offseason, and he blew it so ####### badly the sixers wound up burning most of their assets (well, the ones that the idiot son hadn't already set on fire, anyway) to get two players who are unrestricted free agents this summer. they're really good players, but if brown had done a better job in free agency, maybe the sixers could have held off a deal for jimmy butler until they could find a way to keep robert covington. and if they already had simmons, butler and covington, then maybe they could have sent whoever they signed instead of redick (or wilson chandler) to LAC, and gotten them to include patrick beverley, too.

...
again, i love brett brown for what he's done to keep this organization from becoming the kings, but i'm not sure that the process did not break his brain.
   1348. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5841191)
@KyleNeubeck
Tonight's ref assignments for Sixers vs. Raptors Scott Foster Tony Brothers Jason Phillips congratulations to the Toronto Raptors on tonight's victory
   1349. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 12, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5841210)
It really shouldn't be allowed to have Foster and Brothers call a game together. Yeesh.
   1350. Hot Wheeling American Posted: May 12, 2019 at 02:35 PM (#5841216)
Were all of the Sixers cured of the flu? Don’t recall hearing much about that since they won a game. Hmm.
   1351. tshipman Posted: May 12, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5841223)
* Vogel is 45 years old. That's not too old to change.
* He took two Indiana teams that were hardly stuffed with talent to the ECF -- starring a pre-prime Paul George and anachronism David West (a stretch 4 who doesn't shoot 3s), with Lance Stephenson, George Hill, and Roy Hibbert supporting.
* In Orlando he had a super flawed roster -- some young talent but nowhere near enough shooting or ballhandling to be any good overall

I mean, I'm not saying he will do great for sure but I think his track record is overall pretty good, and he's young enough I think he could still be getting better. I get wanting a higher variance coach, and I don't think Vogel is very likely to be one of the top three or so coaches in the league, but I think he's a good coach and will do a good job. Given the other variance on the Lakers I don't know they need to swing for the fences coach wise -- get Leonard and have the young guys develop and they might only need a good coach to win a title.


In the last 30 years, how many "okay, not bad" coaches have won a championship?

-Maybe Ty Lue

Everyone else is a hall of fame coach:

Kerr
Popovich
Spoelstra
Carlisle
Doc Rivers
Phil Jackson
Pat Riley
Larry Brown
   1352. smileyy Posted: May 12, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5841224)
Some of those guys aren't HOF coaches without championship rings. Definitely not Kerr and Spoelstra, probably not Rivers.
   1353. Fanshawe Posted: May 12, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5841225)

In the last 30 years, how many "okay, not bad" coaches have won a championship?

-Maybe Ty Lue


Some of those guys aren't HOF coaches without championship rings. Definitely not Kerr and Spoelstra


Vogel might be ok after all.
   1354. tshipman Posted: May 12, 2019 at 03:34 PM (#5841229)
Some of those guys aren't HOF coaches without championship rings. Definitely not Kerr and Spoelstra, probably not Rivers.


You guys are seriously still underrating Spo? He's one of the three best coaches in the NBA.

Saying that Kerr wouldn't be considered a great coach without a ring is kinda pointless to me. Okay? He's still won 3 in 4 years, and back to back. He completely changed the NBA on both offense and defense. Steve Kerr without rings is the rich man's Mike D'Antoni, who will also probably make the HOF as a coach.
   1355. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 04:05 PM (#5841234)
Vogel I think is good, but taking this team from 44 to 48 wins isn’t what they are after. They need more talent to get where they want to go.
   1356. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5841237)
Kerr
Popovich
Spoelstra
Carlisle
Doc Rivers
Phil Jackson
Pat Riley
Larry Brown


OK, but let's look at this list as of when they were hired by the team they won the championship with:

-- Kerr, Popovich, Spoelstra, Jackson, and Riley were new to head coaching
-- Carlisle had 6 seasons at 2 previous stops, best performance was a conference finals loss
-- Rivers had 5 years at 1 previous stop, best performance was a round 1 loss
-- Brown had 25 years at 7 previous stops (21 at 6 not counting ABA), best performance was a Finals loss

So that is five newbies and three retreads.

If you look at the NBA head coaches last year, I count 17 people coaching with their first team and 13 retreads, which is a pretty similar ratio. If we look at the 8 guys hired last offseason, we see 4 new head coaches (Kokoskov, Borrego, Pierce, and Nurse) and 4 retreads (Fizdale, Bud, Clifford, Casey), one of whom may well win the title this year (Nurse is also still alive obviously).

On the evidence it doesn't seem obvious to me that teams over-prefer retreads, maybe there's a slight effect at best.
   1357. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: May 12, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5841242)
Out of the blue text from my Dad:

"I've never watched a Nuggets game. Who's the massive white guy?"
   1358. tshipman Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:05 PM (#5841243)
OK, but let's look at this list as of when they were hired by the team they won the championship with:

-- Kerr, Popovich, Spoelstra, Jackson, and Riley were new to head coaching
-- Carlisle had 6 seasons at 2 previous stops, best performance was a conference finals loss
-- Rivers had 5 years at 1 previous stop, best performance was a round 1 loss
-- Brown had 25 years at 7 previous stops (21 at 6 not counting ABA), best performance was a Finals loss

So that is five newbies and three retreads.

If you look at the NBA head coaches last year, I count 17 people coaching with their first team and 13 retreads, which is a pretty similar ratio. If we look at the 8 guys hired last offseason, we see 4 new head coaches (Kokoskov, Borrego, Pierce, and Nurse) and 4 retreads (Fizdale, Bud, Clifford, Casey), one of whom may well win the title this year (Nurse is also still alive obviously).

On the evidence it doesn't seem obvious to me that teams over-prefer retreads, maybe there's a slight effect at best.


The retreads had all won Coach of the Year before they won a championship. So that is kind of a distinction that you are glossing over at best.
   1359. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:23 PM (#5841245)
This isn’t elite basketball, but it’s elite competition.
   1360. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:26 PM (#5841249)
The retreads had all won Coach of the Year before they won a championship. So that is kind of a distinction that you are glossing over at best.


Sure, they'd all had some success, Coach of the Year is one way to measure it, but so had Vogel, so had Joerger, Casey, D'Antoni, Bud, Brooks, Thibs, most retreads who get hired again do so because they had *some* success (ok, I'm not totally sure what the deal with Alvin Gentry is). Among recent retreads, Brooks, Thibs, D'Antoni, Budenholzer, Casey, Mike Brown had all won CoY at a previous stop. CoY is not something that people win over and over so a lot of people win CoY. It's not that meaningful an award.

On the other hand, Carlisle and Rivers also got fired from their previous stint (as with most coaches exiting, of course). Brown had resigned but of course had been fired a few times before. What really sets apart Vogel '19 from Carlisle '03 or Rivers '04?

Of course, you could throw many unsuccessful coaches in the retread bucket -- and many unsuccessful coaches in the first-timers bucket. No single example can be conclusive. But the data to me suggests that Vogel is a fine choice and hiring a retread is not in and of itself bad.
   1361. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:33 PM (#5841251)
Zach Collins will be Myles Turner with an edge in 4 years.
   1362. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5841253)
He’s trying Jennifer.
   1363. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:42 PM (#5841254)
This is a super fun game. I mean, Warriors in 3 still, but super fun.

Zach Collins is a nice player having a nice series, but like the rest of the players wearing red and black, he too has zero chance of guarding Jokic straight up.
   1364. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:48 PM (#5841257)
The road to the conference finals goes through Evan Turner in the post.
   1365. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 05:56 PM (#5841261)
Wow, that Dame steal and three, what a huge, great play.
   1366. Red Voodooin Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5841262)
What a great game!
   1367. spivey Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:01 PM (#5841263)
Was Denver trying to foul on defense down 96-93? This is nervy stuff from both teams.

CJ has been absolutely amazing.
   1368. Red Voodooin Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:03 PM (#5841264)
It feels like CJ shoots 90% on 17 foot jumpers if he has a six inches of space.

EDIT: Also, Mark Jackson is THE WORST. I hate him.
   1369. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:05 PM (#5841265)
I was pretty amused at Jackson praising the "play design" there when the play design was basically, "CJ, dribble for a while and then do something awesome."
   1370. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:07 PM (#5841266)
Did Mark Jackson just call the CJ heroball play with "it takes a truly unselfish player"? I mean, not that CJ is selfish in general, but that seems... off.

EDIT: It's unanimous.
   1371. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:08 PM (#5841267)
EDIT: Also, Mark Jackson is THE WORST. I hate him.

I liked his old man game when he was a player.
   1372. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:10 PM (#5841268)
I hate JVG more than Jackson at this point. He's so angry about everything and feels the need to rant about it every broadcast.
   1373. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:13 PM (#5841269)
I hate JVG more than Jackson at this point. He's so angry about everything and feels the need to rant about it every broadcast.

My favorite was when, on replay, he admitted a call wasn't really a foul, and then used that as a springboard into a little rant about how you have to be smarter and not foul in that situation. That's not even coherent!
   1374. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:18 PM (#5841271)
I'm assuming the Warriors are going to roll over the Blazers, but even so what a great playoff run this Blazers team has had, especially after last year's disappointment. If Collins can keep improving, they could be a real challenger in a year or three.
   1375. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:19 PM (#5841272)
Dame vs Steph is going to be glorious.
   1376. Davo Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:24 PM (#5841274)
I mean big whoop now we don't have to be swept by Golden State, the Western Conference Finals were sour anyway.
   1377. tshipman Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:28 PM (#5841275)
What really sets apart Vogel '19 from Carlisle '03 or Rivers '04?


Neither of those guys presided over 20 win teams that improved dramatically when a new guy took over without a talent upgrade.

(Doc is debatable--he started 1-10, got fired, and that offseason the Magic drafted Dwight 1st overall and improved by 15 wins.)
   1378. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:32 PM (#5841277)
I mean, a colourless and mediocre nonentity as coach seems like close to a local optimum for these Lakers, no?
   1379. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:38 PM (#5841278)
While in Latvia, Kristaps Porzingis was involved in a brawl with a “handful of Russians” over the weekend, according to TMZ. A video of the fight’s aftermath shows Porzingis having blood on his face and arguing with the people around him who appear to be on his side. At one point, he shoves a woman out of his way for trying to hold him back from continuing the fight with the off-camera group that attacked him

Shams Charania of The Athletic reported that the Mavericks are looking into what happened and added the detail that Porzingis was hit by some objects during the assault.


link
   1380. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 12, 2019 at 06:55 PM (#5841282)
I feel like Denver lost that one more than Portland won it. Very happy for Portland, though. I'm glad to see Dame and CJ in a Conference Final.
   1381. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:05 PM (#5841284)
Welcome to Brickfest 2019!
   1382. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:05 PM (#5841286)
Neither of those guys presided over 20 win teams that improved dramatically when a new guy took over without a talent upgrade.

i think that's a highly misleading characterization.

evan fournier, aaron gordon and nik vucevic each missed 20+ games last year, and played 79+ games this year.ORL's most used lineup last season had ~200 minutes; this year, they have over 800. last year, ORL had 9 3-man units that played 500+ minutes together. this year, 8 combinations played over 1000 minutes together.

that's the biggest difference, just being healthy. well, that and dumping biyombo, hezonja and shelton mack. plus, for some odd reason,


FWIW (not much to frank vogel), 4/5ths of the starting lineup ORL uses this year (augustin, fournier, gordon, vucevic) was +7 PTS per 100 possessions in 300 minutes last season.


also, steve clifford is a pretty damn good coach, too.
   1383. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5841287)
joel embiid would have been suspended for that common foul.
   1384. tshipman Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:08 PM (#5841289)
I'm really curious what the Blazers decide to do with Kanter vs. the Warriors.

Kanter really has been unplayable against the Warriors--for his career, he has a 97 ORTG and 116 DRTG in 23 games.

However, Kanter has also been an important part of Portland's identity. Portland was actually the #1 team in offensive rebounding this year, and Kanter + Nurkic were a big part of that. Nurk is not available, obviously, but Kanter is. Collins is a much better defender, but nowhere in the vicinity of Kanter as an offensive rebounder.

Traditionally, teams avoid dropping the big at all costs vs. Curry. Kanter is legendarily ineffective as a switch guy on Curry. I really wonder what PnR defense that Portland will come out with.
   1385. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:16 PM (#5841290)
it's hard to overstate how disappointing tobias harris has been in this series.

embiid is on his death bed, butler is balling out, but here's tobias harris, hoping to attract a max contract offer while turning the ball over more than ben simmons and shooting 36/26/88 (good for a 44% TS%).
   1386. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:18 PM (#5841291)
Feels like everybody here is getting their pockets picked all the time.
   1387. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:19 PM (#5841292)
Isn't that the odd-man-out concern that a lot of people here and elsewhere had about Harris joining that group?
   1388. yo la tengo Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:19 PM (#5841293)
So, we already have a 6 - 0 run, a 7 - 0 run, and an 8 - 0 run. Wacky game so far
   1389. yo la tengo Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:29 PM (#5841294)
What an ugly ugly first quarter for both teams. If you are the Sixers are you dismayed by how bad the offense has been or are you happy to only be down 5 given that dreadful showing?
   1390. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:30 PM (#5841295)
So, we already have a 6 - 0 run, a 7 - 0 run, and an 8 - 0 run. Wacky game so far

After one quarter, on pace for a 72-52 final score.
   1391. puck Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:37 PM (#5841296)
I blame myself for the Nuggets' loss, I couldn't watch due to being at the Rockies game.

What happened? Looked like brick-itis hit them again. 2-19 from 3. Jamal Murray 4-18 overall. Even Jokic's numbers look weird, 11-26 with only 2 assists.
   1392. puck Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5841298)
I think the Nuggets would have lost fairly decisively to the Warriors but they still missed an opportunity by blowing a game 7 at home which they led for most of the way.

They really could have used something out of Beasley and Morris in this series.

Also, did they put Collins on Millsap again? Who guarded him?
   1393. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5841299)
Somebody near the crowd mic sounds like a tortured cat.
   1394. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5841301)
Isn't that the odd-man-out concern that a lot of people here and elsewhere had about Harris joining that group?
he's taken 15 shots per game. that's more than embiid, more than simmons, more than reddick.

so, no, he hasn't been the odd-man out. he's just playing like ####.
What an ugly ugly first quarter for both teams. If you are the Sixers are you dismayed by how bad the offense has been or are you happy to only be down 5 given that dreadful showing?
dismayed. i can eat the shooting or the turnovers or the fouls or the defense, but getting outrebounded is a huge red flag.
   1395. JJ1986 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:03 PM (#5841302)
Embiid played a long stretch there.
   1396. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:14 PM (#5841306)
Did Mark Jackson just call the CJ heroball play with "it takes a truly unselfish player"? I mean, not that CJ is selfish in general, but that seems... off

He was talking about Lillard.
   1397. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5841307)
I feel like my utter detestation of Jason Kidd is spilling over onto poor Ben Simmons.
   1398. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:25 PM (#5841308)
I feel like my utter detestation of Jason Kidd is spilling over onto poor Ben Simmons.
you misspelled lonzo ball.
   1399. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5841309)
you misspelled lonzo ball.

I surely don't detest poor Lonzo Ball.
   1400. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 12, 2019 at 08:31 PM (#5841311)
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