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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6831 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1501. spivey Posted: May 13, 2019 at 05:39 PM (#5841684)
FILP
   1502. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 13, 2019 at 05:55 PM (#5841689)
Count me among the folks who figure that, barring injury, both Oakland and Milwaukie will cruise through to the finals without much drama. Given the injury situations, I'm might even be more confident about the Bucks right now. Kawhi has been playing incredibly lately, but the Bucks are just on another level than the Sixers right now.
   1503. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 13, 2019 at 05:58 PM (#5841690)
as i've said before, i'm not a huge brett brown fan, but there are some prominent NBA reporters who should be raked over the coals for the mountain of horseshit they printed about brown coaching for his job leading into game 7.


my guess is those stories were planted by ben simmons' people. they had the motive (it took attention away from simmons's play), the means (simmons' people are lebron's people, so they can get anything they want out into the open) and the opportunity, plus if brown had been fired, one of the frontrunners to replace him would have been ty lue, who is closely connected to simmons' representation.

my other guess is that ben simmons is not long for the sixers.
the Bucks are just on another level than the Sixers right now
let's see how long that with giannis shitting out his liquified entrails at 6AM on the morning of game 5.
   1504. aberg Posted: May 13, 2019 at 06:11 PM (#5841693)
let's see how long that with giannis shitting out his liquified entrails at 6AM on the morning of game 5.


"Antetokounmpo" is Greek for "four milkshakes per day."

I think Brown is a perfectly cromulent coach. He's not in that top 5-8 or whatever who make a measurable difference, but he's not a dolt, either. I suppose I would backchannel to see if one of those guys (Stotts, Spoelstra- it's nearly impossible to imagine Pop, Kerr, Carlisle, Doc moving) would be interested. If not, I'd hold onto Brown until there are signs the players aren't listening to him anymore.
   1505. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 13, 2019 at 06:16 PM (#5841696)
let's see how long that with giannis shitting out his liquified entrails at 6AM on the morning of game 5.
That's part of it. Another part of it is that the Bucks play harder and execute more precisely than the Sixers have at any point this season. Another part of it is that Giannis is in significantly better shape than Embiid, for reasons that are only partially explainable by Embiid's heath.
   1506. SoSH U at work Posted: May 13, 2019 at 06:25 PM (#5841699)
that says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me.


Nothing the vast majority of his other posts haven't previously said.

   1507. yo la tengo Posted: May 13, 2019 at 06:55 PM (#5841709)
I don't pretend to have any deep insights about Brown as a coach, but the stretch in the last three minutes of the game where Philly could not get a shot off sure looked bad for him. What on earth was happening in that stretch? Was this more of a black eye on Simmons than on Brett Brown?
   1508. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 13, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5841713)
my other guess is that ben simmons is not long for the sixers.

I am fascinated to see what will happen with the Sixers' offseason. There is no Kyrie Irving-sized sword of Damocles hanging over them, but there are a number of choices they'll have to make that will have repercussions for years, starting with how they define their core. Is Embiid the guy? Is Simmons? Are they both? I assume they'll work to keep Butler, but what about Harris? Whether you think Colangelo made good moves, bad moves, or are in between, he certainly condensed their decision-making timeline in a way that forces them to decide who they're trying to be for the next few years now. (For the purposes of this musing I'm ignoring the small but non-zero chance they get the #1 pick, which would only add to the excitement.)
   1509. aberg Posted: May 13, 2019 at 07:07 PM (#5841714)
I don't pretend to have any deep insights about Brown as a coach, but the stretch in the last three minutes of the game where Philly could not get a shot off sure looked bad for him. What on earth was happening in that stretch? Was this more of a black eye on Simmons than on Brett Brown?


My impressions of that stretch were that:
1. Embiid was gassed. I agree with Greg Anthony that a post touch or two would have been better than those high PNRs because Gasol realized that he could hedge hard on Jimmy and still recover before Embiid could do any damage with the ball. Whether that was illness, accumulated minutes, nagging injuries, or conditioning, Embiid was mostly reduced to a decoy and it wasn't fooling the defense.

2. Butler was taking too long to get into the offense. Part of it was a result of #1, part of it was inaction away from the ball. More than anything, I think he was struggling as the primary facilitator (not his natural role) against the best on-ball defender in the world. It happens.

3. As much as Simmons gives you in transition and on defense, his presence makes it a lot easier to help in the half court. Harris should be a fairly reliable outlet, but he was tentative when he touched it down the stretch. Maybe these are things that Brown could address if he had more than 20 games with this group of players. Maybe they're things that no coach can really "fix."
   1510. aberg Posted: May 13, 2019 at 07:18 PM (#5841715)
I am fascinated to see what will happen with the Sixers' offseason.


Those are all good points, but it goes beyond Philly. This offseason is going to be very eventful and there are lots of variable that hang on one another, and it all starts with who gets the ~~"one free Antony Davis token"~~ #1 pick.

Does Kyrie leave Boston? If so, do they still go after Davis? If not, does he end up with the Lakers? If so, do they try to sign another big FA to create a big 3?

Does Durant sign with the Knicks? If so, do they get another max guy? Is it Kyrie or someone on a lower level? If so, do they also trade their young assets for current value?

Does Butler re-sign with Philly? Could he be a running mate for Lebron? Would Philly trade Simmons? Could he be the centerpiece in a Lebron trade? If Jimmy leaves, do they still pay Redick and Harris?

Does Leonard leave Toronto? If so, do the Raptors shop Lowry? Would Leonard end up with the Clippers? If so, would they try to get another All-Star to play next to him?

As usual, it looks like there are a lot more "max slots" than there are "max players." That could lead to a very active trade market once the dominoes start to fall.

I count about eight max or near-max players- Durant, Leonard, Irving, Thompson, Butler, Walker, Harris, Middleton. Russell and Vucevic are a little below them. I would guess that the teams that currently have those players would all prefer to retain them and would use their Bird rights to do so. Outside of those slots, the Lakers, Clippers, Mavs, Knicks, and Nets are all fairly interesting situations with at least one max(ish) slot open. Philly could have a ton of money depending on what happens with their FAs, too. It's an enormous game of chess and each move can have a huge impact on several others.
   1511. Moeball Posted: May 13, 2019 at 07:34 PM (#5841717)
Question for those with more analytical skills than I - GS easily won their last 3 regular season games against Denver. Maybe it was partly being extra motivated, since the Nuggets were challenging them for the #1 seed in the West. But it seemed to me that part of it was also that Boogie played pretty well, thus Jokic didn't have the success he was used to against other teams. Boogie isn't an option that's available now. Would GS have had more difficulty matching up with Denver in the playoffs without Cousins? On the flip side of that coin, Portland is another guard-centric team like Houston, although I guess CJ and Damian shouldn't provide the nightmares defensively for Curry that Harden and Paul did. What should Kerr be doing with his defensive strategy to limit Steph's exposure so he doesn't spend this series in foul trouble like he did the last one?
   1512. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 13, 2019 at 07:50 PM (#5841722)
Would GS have had more difficulty matching up with Denver in the playoffs without Cousins?


I didn't watch any of those games, but GS-as-of-now seems like a nightmare matchup for Denver (I know, they are a nightmare matchup for 25 teams). Specifically, Green is one of the few people who can guard Jokic straight up and that takes away so much of Denver's offense.

GS has a lot of good defensive alignments available against Portland, even without Durant. You can stick Curry on Harkless, Aminu, or, uh, Seth Curry, without really having anything bad happen, and stick Thompson and Iguodala in some order against CJ and Dame. I'm really not seeing any way Portland can make a series of this without some serious intervention by the 3-ball gods. I guess we will see what the Blazers come up with, they are certainly going to try.
   1513. Moeball Posted: May 13, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5841727)
Funny that you mention the 3-ball gods, because that game 7 wasn't pretty. Portland only hit 15% of their 3s, and they were the team that won! Denver only making 10% made for an ugly game.
   1514. spivey Posted: May 13, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5841728)
I agree with AS that Portland basically needs serious 3 point variance to beat Golden State. I was going to say they're one of the teams you'd most bet on. And maybe with playoff tweaks that's true, but interestingly they were 18th in 3PA.
   1515. aberg Posted: May 13, 2019 at 10:03 PM (#5841756)
Stein on Twitter
Pop Theory Update: More on this coming in tomorrow's @nytimes NBA newsletter ... but teams that shoot a higher percentage from the 3-point line than the opponent are 50-16 through two rounds of the playoffs
   1516. aberg Posted: May 13, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5841757)
If you liked "warriors run pnr at Kevin Love," you're going to go wild for "injured Kanter tries to defend Curry!"
   1517. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 13, 2019 at 10:28 PM (#5841761)
For Kanter's sake, I also hope they don't have any day games because trying to play defense against the Warriors without being able to drink is not going to go well. He's played better this postseason than I ever imagined he could. Blazers really did a good job getting cheap depth with him, Hood, and even Curry before the season.
   1518. PJ Martinez Posted: May 13, 2019 at 11:10 PM (#5841765)
Brett Brown will return as the Philadelphia 76ers coach next season, managing partner Josh Harris told ESPN on Monday night. Harris, Brown and GM Elton Brand met today to discuss offseason priorities, including draft and free agency.
   1519. tshipman Posted: May 13, 2019 at 11:16 PM (#5841766)
For Kanter's sake, I also hope they don't have any day games because trying to play defense against the Warriors without being able to drink is not going to go well. He's played better this postseason than I ever imagined he could. Blazers really did a good job getting cheap depth with him, Hood, and even Curry before the season.


Kanter has played well, yes, but he's also had two good matchups in a row.

Against OKC, he has a clear spot to hide with Steven Adams. All Kanter has to do is drop in the Adams/Westbrook PnR. You're obviously not worried about Westbrook shooting 3s off the dribble, and Adams is not a threat to pop.

Against Denver, Jokic is a harder cover to be sure, but also not one where you get beat with quickness. Kanter can stay on the court when you're talking about defending a big in the post. He's physical, and likes to bang. Also, I would point out that Jokic was a huuuuuge positive in the series, something like +60 over the 7 games, and Kanter was a cummulative -28, so it's not like Kanter did such a great job.

Against Golden State is where Kanter really gets exposed. He simply cannot do anything against the Steph/Draymond PnR. In the infamous 2016 OKC/GSW series, Kanter only played 85 minutes in a 7 game series. Notably, in game 3, a game the Thunder won by 28 points, Kanter was -17.
   1520. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 13, 2019 at 11:52 PM (#5841768)
2. Butler was taking too long to get into the offense. Part of it was a result of #1, part of it was inaction away from the ball. More than anything, I think he was struggling as the primary facilitator (not his natural role) against the best on-ball defender in the world. It happens.

it didn't help that butler turned his ankle with 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
I am fascinated to see what will happen with the Sixers' offseason. There is no Kyrie Irving-sized sword of Damocles hanging over them, but there are a number of choices they'll have to make that will have repercussions for years, starting with how they define their core. Is Embiid the guy? Is Simmons? Are they both? I assume they'll work to keep Butler, but what about Harris? Whether you think Colangelo made good moves, bad moves, or are in between, he certainly condensed their decision-making timeline in a way that forces them to decide who they're trying to be for the next few years now. (For the purposes of this musing I'm ignoring the small but non-zero chance they get the #1 pick, which would only add to the excitement.)

embiid is the guy.

they are clearly in win-now mode because there is no telling how long embiid's body can hold up.

forget harris. what i'm worried about is jj redick. please dear ####### god do not let the sixers plan ####### A be more of jj ####### redick trying to do anything productive in the playoffs.

colangelo was godawful. the only three players of note he acquired during his tenure are jj redick (unplayable in the playoffs), amir johnson (he aged a decade in the last year) and jonah bolden (a legitimately good find).

btw: brett brown was also a godawful GM.


i have some confidence in elton brand. not a ton, he seems like he might be a ruben amaro type, who chases the white whale, but lets alot of smaller things turn to ####, but he had the confidence to move for jimmy butler 10 games into the season, and he also had a shrewd eye to pick up james ennis for basically nothing at the trade deadline.

with hindsight, the worst decision elton brand made all year was letting corey brewer leave around the trade deadline instead of immediately locking up for the rest of the year. letting this ####### guy defend kawhi for 20 minutes per game would have been the difference between losing in 7 and sweeping TOR off the ####### planet.
   1521. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 12:05 AM (#5841769)
Does Butler re-sign with Philly? Could he be a running mate for Lebron? Would Philly trade Simmons? Could he be the centerpiece in a Lebron trade? If Jimmy leaves, do they still pay Redick and Harris?

i know the CHI people have gone radio silent since derrick rose went seabiscuit and patrick kane went miggs, but if any of you are still around, let me know if you have ever seen jimmy butler look happier than when he is next to joel embiid?

and god, i ####### well hope not. i could probably talk myself into not hating tobias harris, but i am so ####### done with jj redick and tj mcconnell.

oh, as for butler playing with lebron, apparently one of jimmy butler's closest friends is kyrie irving...so, i'm thinking that's pretty unlikely.

as for trading simmons for lebron, that's not happening. if lebron engineers a trade here, it'll be so that he can play with simmons, not so that he can replace him.

i think it's possible that simmons winds up in LAL in the next year or two, but i'm not quite sure how that would work.
   1522. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 12:17 AM (#5841770)
let me know if you have ever seen jimmy butler look happier than when he is next to joel embiid?
also, demarcus cousins.

it seems like embiid attracts a certain type of respect from a certain type of person.


maybe go full goon squad this summer.
bring back butler.
bring back scott.
bring back ennis.
bring in patrick beverley.
bring in marcus morris.
bring in markieff morris.
bring in corey brewer.
trade for grayson tedcruz.
   1523. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 12:21 AM (#5841771)
also, this isn't worth bothering to say, considering his injuries, his contract and his raymond felton-ish body goals, but i'd love to see embiid play with peak-john wall.
   1524. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 02:04 AM (#5841778)
Perhaps the Sixers will manage to acquire a certain college teammate of Embiid's? ####, Wayne Selden and Frank Mason are still both in the league I think, let's get the whole band back together.
   1525. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:05 AM (#5841798)
I don't think Kanter will play as much against GS as he has in the last two series. His defense has come a long ways, but he's gimpy and as mentioned above this is a tougher matchup for him. I expect Collins and Aminu will get more time. IIRC Aminu played small-ball C against GS in the '17 playoffs, when Nurkic couldn't play because he got hurt at the end of the regular season (deja vu, alas).

This has obviously been an extraordinary run for Portland. But playing Game 1 on the road tonight just two days after an emotional Game 7 at altitude is going to be tough. Plus Dame looks gassed, and I can't imagine Rodney Hood will be any good even if he's able to play. They're going to need McCollum keep on doing what he's been doing, which will be tougher against Klay. Hopefully Dame gets revived by some home cooking. And one of Aminu or Harkless will need a big offensive game where they hit like 6 corner 3s. It's happened before, but those guys have been just awful this playoffs.
   1526. Powderhorn™, arrogant local sailing champion Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:27 AM (#5841804)
Apologies if this has been posted already, but from Marc Stein:
Another reward for the victorious Warriors: League sources say that DeMarcus Cousins -- if he maintains his recent progress from a torn quad -- is on course to make a return to the Warriors' active roster during the Western Conference finals
"make a return" is a long way from "make a difference", but still, this news makes me happy for Boogie. It doesn't change my expectation of Warriors in 6.

#1517 raises a good point that I hadn't thought of. AFAIK the first 4 games are all scheduled to start at 6 pm local time.
   1527. JJ1986 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:50 AM (#5841810)
Redick was good in the Toronto series.
   1528. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:53 AM (#5841812)
I think this is a good sign for the Wolves:
New Minnesota Timberwolves president of basketball operations Gersson Rosas plans to interview candidates for the franchise's head-coaching job this week, including Miami Heat assistant Juwan Howard and Portland Trail Blazers assistant David Vanterpool, league sources told ESPN.

Interim coach Ryan Saunders will remain a prominent candidate in Minnesota's coaching search, but Rosas plans to engage in a process with outside candidates before formalizing a decision on a new head coach, league sources said.
   1529. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:10 AM (#5841848)
I honestly feel sick to my stomach already and am not even sure why I thought I could be productive at work today.
   1530. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5841854)
Redick was good in the Toronto series.

his usage% was 16% despite ben simmons not shooting and joel embiid's body reenacting the sinking of the andrea doria. the sixers needed redick and harris to step up and to make the offense work when embiid unable and simmons was unwilling. they were not able to.

and btw, it's kind of true that redick was not horrible defensively vs. TOR, but only because every raptor besides kawhi forgot how to play basketball.
I honestly feel sick to my stomach already and am not even sure why I thought I could be productive at work today.
fun fact: NYK is as likely to pick 5th as they are to pick 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th, combined.
   1531. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:27 AM (#5841855)
fun fact: NYK is as likely to pick 5th as they are to pick 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th, combined.
#hinkie
   1532. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:32 AM (#5841856)
It is shocking that Embiid had issues with his health and fitness when his team needed him most. Based on his history who could have ever conceived such a thing? /Sarcasm

I mean Embiid is a great player, when he is OK and on his game. Clearly one of the best in the Association. But seriously you can't ever pretend to be surprised when he occasionally turns into an unhealthy pumpkin at midnight. Be surprised when it doesn't happen would be my advice.
   1533. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:42 AM (#5841861)
It is shocking that Embiid had issues with his health and fitness when his team needed him most. Based on his history who could have ever conceived such a thing? /Sarcasm

I mean Embiid is a great player, when he is OK and on his game. Clearly one of the best in the Association. But seriously you can't ever pretend to be surprised when he occasionally turns into an unhealthy pumpkin at midnight. Be surprised when it doesn't happen would be my advice.
1520. shout-out to 57i66135; that ####'s working now Posted: May 13, 2019 at 11:52 PM (#5841768)
[...]embiid is the guy.

[the sixers] are clearly in win-now mode because there is no telling how long embiid's body can hold up.
Perhaps the Sixers will manage to acquire a certain college teammate of Embiid's? ####, Wayne Selden and Frank Mason are still both in the league I think, let's get the whole band back together
tarik black isn't walking through that door.


goon squad v. 2.0:
bring back butler.
bring back scott.
bring back ennis.
bring in avery bradley.
bring in travor ariza.
bring in ed davis.
bring in taj gibson.
bring in derrick rose.
trade for dellavadadbod.


G: simmons, bradley || rose, kneecrippler
W: butler, ariza || scott, ennis, zhaire
B: embiid || davis, gibson, bolden
   1534. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5841873)
If the Sixers offered Embiid for Davis straight up, New Orleans would break their fingers faxing in the paperwork before Philadelphia changed their minds, right? They're not going to get a better offer than that, right?

Because man would I do that in a heartbeat if I were Philadelphia, if I could re-sign him (huge if, granted). I'd feel a pang of guilty conscience for sending Embiid to the worst medical staff in the NBA, but...
   1535. JC in DC Posted: May 14, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5841877)
NJ is sick, as am I, because we anticipate disappointment. The only question is just how great that disappointment will be.
   1536. . Posted: May 14, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5841893)
NJ is sick, as am I, because we anticipate disappointment. The only question is just how great that disappointment will be.


The anticipated disappointment is such that I can't watch. I couldn't watch the NHL lottery, either, and that worked out very well for the Rangers. That's an aberration for me, and I expect normalcy to bounce back strong tonight around 8:45 Eastern.

To have this shitty a team and to then walk into the lottery with the 5th pick being essentially a coin flip with a Top 4 is ... is ... is ... well, it's something.
   1537. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5841898)
If the Sixers offered Embiid for Davis straight up, New Orleans would break their fingers faxing in the paperwork before Philadelphia changed their minds, right? They're not going to get a better offer than that, right?

Because man would I do that in a heartbeat if I were Philadelphia, if I could re-sign him (huge if, granted). I'd feel a pang of guilty conscience for sending Embiid to the worst medical staff in the NBA, but...

I know the health concerns are real, but I honestly prefer Embiid at this point. I think at his best he'll be capable of being as good as Davis, and I also couldn't have been less impressed by the way Davis carried himself this year. I'm definitely strongly a numbers guy when comparing players, but call me crazy, I prefer guys who don't choose to blow up their franchise for kicks.
   1538. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5841914)
I think Davis for Embiid is a brilliant trade idea. Both teams would do it I suspect and both teams should.
   1539. spivey Posted: May 14, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5841915)
I don't think any way Philly does that. Embiid is the face, and is locked up long term.

Whether or not he's as good as AD (I think he is), teams don't generally give up like for like talent in a deal like this.

Simmons + a couple of draft picks may still be one of the better offers, though. Of course, they've really wasted a lot of their draft pick surplus over the last couple of years.
   1540. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 14, 2019 at 01:46 PM (#5841919)
I have an even odds bet on the lottery - that the Knicks don't land the top overall pick.
Heh.
   1541. Tin Angel Posted: May 14, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5841926)
Too bad there isn't a Sixers fan here that could give us some insight on trade proposals...
   1542. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5841931)
Too bad there isn't a Sixers fan here that could give us some insight on trade proposals...

If stiggles were still alive we'd be getting Zion/Sixers lineups and trade proposals right up until lottery time tonight. Alas, Kawhi appears to have killed him.
   1543. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5841932)
i know the CHI people have gone radio silent since derrick rose went seabiscuit and patrick kane went miggs, but if any of you are still around, let me know if you have ever seen jimmy butler look happier than when he is next to joel embiid?

Say what now. Nah, I don't know what to believe from Jimmy anymore. I think any sign of happiness out of him these days is fickle.

letting this ####### guy defend kawhi for 20 minutes per game would have been the difference between losing in 7 and sweeping TOR off the ####### planet.

At least that loss hasn't ruined your sense of humor.
   1544. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5841934)
I should have posted this earlier, but here's a sports picture that the Kawhi game winner pic reminded me of. This one was also compared to a classical painting when it was published. It seems like there must be a website that collects accidentally "classic" sports photos like these, no?
   1545. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5841936)
the sixers needed redick and harris to step up and to make the offense work when embiid unable and simmons was unwilling. they were not able to.
Kinda feel like Redick did exactly what he as being paid to do, and also what he's able to do. Redick isn't remotely the problem. Simmons is the problem, a much, much bigger problem than Sixers fans are willing to admit to.
   1546. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5841937)
From Shams (was video, apparently, I'm quoting from RealGM):
I'm told if the Knicks get the No. 1 overall pick, they would then shift their focus towards a potential deal for Anthony Davis in Zion Williams with the No. 1 overall pick and potentially Kevin Knox. They could pair both of those guys in a trade for Anthony Davis.
   1547. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5841938)
Question for people who are not rooting for one of the 3-4 worst teams and therefore probably do not have a serious fandom stake in it: where would you like to see Williamson land, in terms of league, personal preference, etc? I would sort of like to see him on the Hawks. Knicks 2nd.
   1548. JC in DC Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5841939)
Ugh on 1546.
   1549. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5841940)
I don't want the Bulls to get him, because their management doesn't deserve him. The Cavs either, because they've been too lucky in the draft already. Wouldn't mind the Suns, Hawks, Knicks. Memphis would be cool, as would Dallas or Minnesota. Obviously Philly would be terrible.
   1550. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:22 PM (#5841941)
The Cavs either, because they've been too lucky in the draft already. Wouldn't mind the Suns,


I don't like the idea of Gilbert or Sarver getting him. I am cool with Dolan though because JD and the Straight Shot would probably write a really cool tribute song.
   1551. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:22 PM (#5841942)
I am not your target audience, but excluding the Bulls, I think the Hawks would be fun. Memphis. Dallas (though #### Cuban). Minnesota.

I'd hate to see Cleveland or NO or PHX. I'm anti-Knicks and thus feel no need for anything good to happen to them, but am not rooting for or against them getting him (though them losing the lottery is just better entertainment than them winning it); any other team I didn't list would be in that same buckets as NY.

---

There's a small part of me - while I fully acknowledge both how much better and how much more of sure thing that Zion is than anyone else - that is really hoping the Bulls get #2 and Morant.
   1552. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:27 PM (#5841944)
I'm rooting for one of the teams that actually tried to be good but just screwed it all up: Washington, Minnesota, New Orleans, Memphis... that might be it? Chicago fits that definition of course but I can't root for them. Phoenix, too, they don't deserve another high pick.
   1553. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5841946)
I think the Hawks, for the neutral, is the obvious desired landing spot for Williamson.
   1554. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5841947)
I don't want the Bulls to get him, because their management doesn't deserve him.

I hate defending them, but once again feel the need to point out that the amount of complaining done about the Bulls (here, and by me especially) is still a bit out of proportion to their actual level of success/competence. There are a helluva lot of teams in the lottery today (and even some that aren't*) that would have had a much better decade plus with GarPax and Reinsdorfs than their current situations.

*Detroit, Charlotte to name a couple.
   1555. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:30 PM (#5841949)
I think the Hawks, for the neutral, is the obvious desired landing spot for Williamson.

Der-k is a prince among men but boooooo Atlanta sports. That would be a good basketball fit, though, absolutely.
   1556. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:30 PM (#5841950)
*Detroit, Charlotte to name a couple.

Oh Charlotte, throw them in the mix of the teams that actually tried to be good.
   1557. billyshears Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:32 PM (#5841951)
I've seen this floating around a bit, but the idea that anything else of value would have to be paired with Zion in a trade for Davis is insane. There is no realistic trade package that any other team could put together that would match a deal consisting solely of Zion. And the Pels would be nuts to turn down Zion for Davis straight-up. I grant that if the Knicks wanted a Durant/Kyrie/Davis threesome, they would have to attach salary in the form of Knox/Nkilitina/Smith to Zion in a trade for Davis. Now, the Knicks are always run by crazy people, so maybe they do that, but it would be a crazy thing to do.

Also, sports just exist to torment us.
   1558. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5841953)
That would be a good basketball fit, though, absolutely.

My opinion is strictly basketball. I haven't spent enough time in Atlanta to have a strong opinion about the city. Young, Huerter, Zion and Collins would be a fun, young core of players to build around and Schlenk seems to know what he's doing.
   1559. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:37 PM (#5841954)
   1560. aberg Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:38 PM (#5841955)
Memphis, Atlanta, New Orleans are the three teams I think would be fun to see get Zion.

I won't allow myself to even think about Zion on the Wolves. For some reason, the thought of Ja Morant playing with Towns keeps creeping into my brain, though.
   1561. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5841956)
My Celtics fan bias rankings for Zion:

That would be cool tier:
Atlanta, New Orleans, Memphis, Charlotte

Mixed feelings/meh tier:
Phoenix, Washington, Minny, Miami

Actively don't want:
Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, Lakers, Philly, New York

I think I, like others, am rooting for Atlanta to pick him up, because that would be a fun young team, but mainly I don't want to see him in one of my bottom tier places.
   1562. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5841957)
I won't allow myself to even think about Zion on the Wolves. For some reason, the thought of Ja Morant playing with Towns keeps creeping into my brain, though.


Amen.
   1563. RJ in TO Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5841960)
I do not want the Knicks to draft Zion and trade him to New Orleans, as I do not want JC in DC to combust from internal rage.
   1564. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5841961)
You know, Anthony Davis is pretty good. I'm not going to cry for a team that ends up with AD on lottery night.
   1565. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 14, 2019 at 04:00 PM (#5841964)
I hate defending them, but once again feel the need to point out that the amount of complaining done about the Bulls (here, and by me especially) is still a bit out of proportion to their actual level of success/competence.

for sure, Moses. I should have included an asterisk that mentions that I'm a Bucks fan living in Chicago, so I get more enjoyment out of the Bulls crapulence than most.
   1566. spivey Posted: May 14, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5841969)
I don't think I'd trade Zion for AD straight up. I feel like Zion on a rookie scale contract and all of the benefits to being the first team that gets him is a top 10 asset in the NBA. Maybe higher. AD with 1 year left, less so. Maybe if you get a guarantee that AD will stay, but even still I'm not sure.
   1567. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: May 14, 2019 at 04:14 PM (#5841972)
where would you like to see Williamson land, in terms of league, personal preference, etc?

Hawks or Mavs would be great. Cavs would be bad. Anyone else would be pretty good.

Simmons + a couple of draft picks may still be one of the better offers, though. Of course, they've really wasted a lot of their draft pick surplus over the last couple of years.

I love Butler and Embiid, but I fear that Philly might've blown its best shot at the trade deadline this year. In exchange for a couple months of Tobias Harris, they gave up 3 first rounders, including the unprotected Miami pick and an already-useful rookie (Shamet), two future second rounders from Detroit, and a collection of expiring contracts. That's just not a good use of resources, especially considering that the Bucks acquired a very similar player in Mirotic for nothing but second rounders and contract filler.

The Sixers were in an ideal position then to pull off a blockbuster with New Orleans. As I said here at the time, I really think they could've dealt Simmons and their war chest of picks and expirings for AD and Jrue. They'd have an awful lot of money tied up in their resulting 4-man core, but Jrue, Butler, Davis, and Embiid would've been a ridiculously awesome core. I don't think something like that is feasible anymore, because they no longer have the assets and market power to pull it off, and in any event they've now missed out on 1 of the 2 years Davis has left under contract.

At this point I think Zhaire Smith's development is key to the Sixers' continued improvement, barring winning the lottery tonight of course. If he can sort of approximate what Iguodala does for the Warriors--be a terror defensively and in transition, make smart reads as a cutter and knock down open 3s when defenses ignore him--then maybe the team can gel into something much more cohesive-looking than it usually appeared this season. Patrick Beverley could do most of that as well, though I sense he'll have a lot of suitors in free agency.
   1568. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 04:44 PM (#5841983)
[1567] Good post. I particularly agree with the fact that it's a damn shame that we wasted a potential year of Davis on a contender. As an NBA fan, that's a shame. Celtics, Sixers, Blazers, Clippers, whatever, it'd have upped the intrigue for sure to have him on any non-Warriors playoff team.
   1569. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 05:08 PM (#5841992)
Heh
   1570. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 14, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5842016)
Der-k is a prince among men

Thank you kind sir!
but boooooo Atlanta sports.

This is a reasonable stance. I can't help where I lived when I was 9... :)

If one were to not be like "booooo Atlanta sports", I think you could make an argument for the Hawks (which I guess is why I see them most frequently as the neutral team the most people want ZW to land with). The strongest argument (imo) against - absent anti-Georgia or Atlanta itself sentiment (both fair) - is the small fanbase. But it'd be a good basketball situation, I think, and I think that their ownership/management is one that might be ready to turn a corner. They also were a bad NBA team that didn't really try to tank - so if you worship at the altar of the basketball gods, there's props there. Plus (and I am biased here), I think there's a feeling that they've suffered a bit - even when they won in the regular season, no one has considered them a real threat since they've left Missouri.
   1571. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 06:22 PM (#5842017)
For me, it's more simple than that. Him and Young would be really fun together.
   1572. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 14, 2019 at 06:38 PM (#5842019)
You could also make the Luka + Zion argument, but I think, karmically, I'd go with ATL over DAL.
   1573. aberg Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5842022)
I'm holding off on wishing good things on Dallas until more time has passed and/or they do more to rectify the pervasive sexual harassment culture. Luka + Zion (+Porzingis) would be fun, though. A whole team of unicorns.
   1574. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:05 PM (#5842023)
Giannis: “Against Boston, you can go down 1-0 and still be fine; but against Toronto, it's hard to be in that spot when you lose the first game in your home.”


Still dunking on the Celtics.
   1575. sardonic Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5842024)
I'm holding off on wishing good things on Dallas until more time has passed and/or they do more to rectify the pervasive sexual harassment culture. Luka + Zion (+Porzingis) would be fun, though. A whole team of unicorns.


Zion could be a rich man's Draymond, Porzingis is a poor man's KD and Luka is a homeless man's Steph. Could be fun. Agree with the bad juju around the Mavs organization though.
   1576. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:13 PM (#5842025)
1573 - same here, aberg (and sardonic)
   1577. PJ Martinez Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5842030)
Have the Hawks ever had a bona-fide MVP-type franchise player? Maybe Atlanta would finally become a basketball town if they did.
   1578. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:37 PM (#5842031)
Setting aside rooting interest, I would want some team that has never had great success land Zion. Atlanta, New Orleans, Memphis. I badly do not want him someplace hateful, like New York or Chicago or (spits) Boston.
   1579. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5842033)
Obviously, the Lakers winning would be the worst of all possible outcomes.
   1580. yo la tengo Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:48 PM (#5842037)
Dominique qualifies as an MVP type player for Atlanta, right?
   1581. Mike A Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:49 PM (#5842040)
Have the Hawks ever had a bona-fide MVP-type franchise player? Maybe Atlanta would finally become a basketball town if they did.

If you don't count Bob Pettitt, probably not. Dominique was the closest - and he was kinda borderline...44th in career PER, though other advanced stats aren't as kind. 'Nique was pretty much all-offense, but he was pretty darn good at it. There have been other very good players - Mookie, Pistol Pete, Dikembe, Horford, etc...but no one you'd call an MVP/franchise guy.

There have been close calls - Julius Erving was briefly a Hawk until the Commissioner/courts took him away, they just missed on Dwight Howard, and of course inexplicably taking Marvin Williams over Chris Paul.

So, yeah, it would be nice. Jami Gertz will be the Hawks' representative, so I can only hope she brings some luck with her. At the least, they don't want to lose the Dallas pick.
   1582. PJ Martinez Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:55 PM (#5842043)
Dominique qualifies as an MVP type player for Atlanta, right?
He finished second in '85-'86, mostly, I imagine, because he led the league in scoring and the Hawks were good that year. But it seems like Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, McHale, and Barkley all had better seasons; possibly Dantley, Moncrief, and Worthy, too.

His highest finish otherwise was fifth. He was a really fun, exciting player, but I'm not sure how often he was legitimately one of the five best guys in the league.
   1583. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 07:59 PM (#5842045)
I'm mostly rooting against the Cavs because of Gilbert, and secondarily against the Suns because of Sarver. Knicks and Mavs would be on the list, but the Knicks fans here, I feel for you guys, and Doncic + Zion would be great.

In an hour this will I suppose likely be irrelevant, but what do the Bulls do if they get the pick? Do they trade Markannen? WCJ? Try to play all of them? Consider trading #1 for #2 (Morant, a much better fit) and something significant? It feels like perhaps among all these teams they are the ones for whom Zion is the worst fit basketball wise (granting that nobody can be a bad fit on the Cavs or Knicks because they have no good players).
   1584. yo la tengo Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5842048)
I am certain that my image of Nique is hugely colored by his amazing scoring duel with Bird in the playoffs, I wish I remembered the year. I have a memory of a quarter of basketball where Nique and Larry Legend simply swapped baskets
   1585. puck Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:13 PM (#5842051)
They have no pick, but not ever having had a superstar is a consideration, Denver's up there in the Zion sweepstakes. There was a talk radio question about whether Jokic would be their best every player. Yeah, obviously, assuming JC in DC does not plant ideas in his head and he sticks around. David Thompson's peak is way worse in advanced numbers than I would have thought, so I guess that leaves Dan Issel as their greatest ever player.

Bobby Jones is thought of as a 76er, but he's 8th on the Nuggets all time WS list.

What other teams have underwhelming greatest players?
   1586. Tin Angel Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5842054)
What about Alex English?
   1587. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:40 PM (#5842059)
where would you like to see Williamson land, in terms of league, personal preference, etc?


From a basketball standpoint, I'd love to see him in Memphis. Zion and JJJ would be a potentially amazing fit. Memphis is also a very underrated basketball town. They have good fans, a good arena. I have happy thoughts for Memphis.

Personal preference: Lakers, natch.

League benefit: this one is hard ... I think it will take 3-4 years for Zion to reach the beginning of his NBA identity. Maybe the Heat? The Bulls? The Wizards? I'd hope for a reasonable size market that can really love/embrace him.

Really I'd be fine with anyone except the Knicks, Suns or Cavs. Their owners are all godawful.
   1588. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:47 PM (#5842060)
Final four of Memphis, LAL, Knicks and New Orleans. that's pretty fun.
   1589. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:48 PM (#5842061)
Pulling for New Orleans of that final group...
   1590. Mike A Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:49 PM (#5842062)
Hawks got kinda screwed, but I guess it could have been worse (Bulls, Suns, etc).

Not at all happy about the Lakers moving up, I'm breaking out the tin foil hat if the Knicks or Lakers win.
   1591. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:49 PM (#5842063)
If Lakers win the lottery, I don't care about the logistics, it's 100% rigged.
   1592. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:50 PM (#5842064)
Lakers really improving their Davis odds, no matter where it lands.
   1593. spivey Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:51 PM (#5842065)
Anthony Davis changed his mind!!
   1594. JJ1986 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:51 PM (#5842066)
Damn!
   1595. Booey Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:51 PM (#5842067)
Wow. That's a helluva consolation prize for losing Davis.

Or will AD rescind his trade demand now? Davis, Zion, Jrue...
   1596. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:51 PM (#5842068)
Genuine sorry to Knicks fans, that's a major ####### bummer for you guys.
   1597. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:52 PM (#5842069)
Wow, Pelicans have good lottery luck when their star player demands a trade.
   1598. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:53 PM (#5842070)
this is amazing
   1599. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:54 PM (#5842071)
I don't think this leads to AD changing his mind? He and Zion play the same position, and rookies are almost always not playoff contributors their first year.
   1600. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:55 PM (#5842072)
I am satisfied.
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