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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6831 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1601. billyshears Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:58 PM (#5842073)
Genuine sorry to Knicks fans, that's a major ####### bummer for you guys.


Speaking on behalf of Knicks fans, we appreciate the sympathy (we don't get much). Obviously not what we all were most hoping for, but the math was always against us. Still, we came out ahead on expected value, and getting into the top 3 was really important.
   1602. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 08:58 PM (#5842074)
Kevin O'Connor @KevinOConnorNBA
Alvin Gentry yelled “fuck yeah” when the Pelicans won the no. 1 pick during the lottery drawing.

Then he stood up and stuck his arms out like “are you not entertained?” Then he said sorry.

No reason to apologize: Zion Williamson will be with the New Orleans Pelicans.
   1603. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5842077)
When I saw NYK and LAL in the final four, I was certain we’d all get screwed. But this is fine with me.
   1604. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:01 PM (#5842078)
Genuine sorry to Knicks fans, that's a major ####### bummer for you guys.

Not feeling this.

NO in a world where they didn't just completely squander AD is fine, but I kinda don't like this.

Will the grizzlies move Conley now and take Morant?
   1605. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:03 PM (#5842080)
BTW, 3rd straight year Bulls get 7th pick, even if Lauri was via trade.
   1606. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:03 PM (#5842081)
I am personally not at all a fan of Zion going into the hands of the NBA’s most notoriously awful medical staff.
   1607. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:06 PM (#5842082)
I think the Pels just hired away the Suns lead trainer. So that's good news.
   1608. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:07 PM (#5842083)
NO in a world where they didn't just completely squander AD is fine

A. I don't agree with that interpretation of the Davis era and
B. Most of the rest of the teams in the lottery are also there for a reason.
   1609. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:07 PM (#5842085)
When I saw NYK and LAL in the final four, I was certain we’d all get screwed. But this is fine with me.

I yelped when they were announced as picks 4 and 3. The Memphis pick rolling over to next year is quietly good for the Celtics' arsenal too, so this only makes the AD trade dynamics more interesting on several levels.
   1610. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:07 PM (#5842086)
Btw, one note about the Pelicans is they have a clean cap sheet: only Holiday and Davis are signed past next season, and next season is not too bad. If they traded Davis for Tatum and picks and then signed KD... I mean, not that likely, but that would be a great team over the next 5 years (he says, trying to remember Zion will likely not be a star in year 1).
   1611. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:09 PM (#5842088)
Even if they don't sign KD (they won't), Zion plus another young stud plus picks is a hell of an attractive base to lure a max free agent that fits the roster in a year or two.
   1612. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:16 PM (#5842097)
A. I don't agree with that interpretation of the Davis era and
B. Most of the rest of the teams in the lottery are also there for a reason.


How would you characterize the performance of New Orleans' management?
   1613. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:22 PM (#5842099)
God, having to listen to the national broadcast team is so, so painful.
   1614. JC in DC Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:29 PM (#5842103)
Good to have that behind us. I'm not actually disappointed and relatively happy to be in the top 3. What makes me even happier, honestly, is that Zion in NO quite frankly is like removing him from the game. I would've hated him on Cleveland, or Chicago, or LA. Poor kid will be in NO and even if he's fantastic, they'll probably still suck.
   1615. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:30 PM (#5842105)
Knicks fan here. So is RJ Barrett the most likely choice and is he going to be good? I’ll hang up and listen.
   1616. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:33 PM (#5842106)
Will the grizzlies move Conley now and take Morant?


This is my hope and that the Jazz can make the deal for him this offseason instead of waste money on Tobias.
   1617. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:34 PM (#5842108)
Knicks fan here. So is RJ Barrett the most likely choice and is he going to be good? I’ll hang up and listen.


I do not follow college basketball so my opinion is even more worthless than normal, but he looks like a huge bust waiting to happen. Like Andrew Wiggins-esque.
   1618. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5842111)
Knicks fan here. So is RJ Barrett the most likely choice and is he going to be good? I’ll hang up and listen.


Probably and no.
   1619. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5842112)
Barrett has broader skills than Wiggins, but I'm not a fan.

Davis supposedly still wants out of NO (no shock).
   1620. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5842113)
I don't think this leads to AD changing his mind? He and Zion play the same position, and rookies are almost always not playoff contributors their first year.


Agreed on AD not changing his mind and the part about rookies, but I really don't think there would be a fit issue with AD and Zion playing 4 and 5 together. Honestly AD might prefer having someone to bang with heavier bigs anyway.
   1621. JC in DC Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:42 PM (#5842114)
You're coaching bad if you've got Zion banging heavy bigs. That's not happening. I have no opinion on Barrett. I like lefties, he's got pretty good vision. I'm not sure about any other facets of his game.
   1622. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:44 PM (#5842116)
.@Mike_Schmitz has the Lakers’ best selection being Darius Garland at No. 4. Garland also happens to be repped by Rich Paul of Klutch Sports, like LeBron James
Lebron James owns the world. I have no idea if Garland is worth the #4.
   1623. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:45 PM (#5842118)
You're coaching bad if you've got Zion banging heavy bigs. That's not happening. I have no opinion on Barrett. I like lefties, he's got pretty good vision. I'm not sure about any other facets of his game.


Ideally he's used like Draymond on defense, but if it made AD happier and willing to stay I would be fine letting Zion take Embiid/Jokic/Cousins.
   1624. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:45 PM (#5842119)
I don't think Memphis needs to move Conley. Young PGs are generally not very good, Morant can play behind or alongside Mike and be ready to take over when his contract's up in two years. Plus it seems like Memphis would like to keep Conley around for both savvy vet and franchise icon reasons.
   1625. PJ Martinez Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:49 PM (#5842122)
Griffin's comment after he was hired about trying to convince AD to stay seemed savvy and wise, but after the way last season played out it's hard to imagine that the move here isn't the obvious one: trade AD for prospects and picks and make Zion the face of the franchise on day one. New GM, new star, get some young and promising supporting players and persuade Louisianans that this is when the Pelicans era begins.
   1626. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:56 PM (#5842123)
I mean, Zion, Jrue, Jayson Tatum, and an assortment of minor goodies from Boston is a pretty good foundation from which to build a team from scratch!

edit: Zion, Jrue, Kyle Kuzma and an assortment of nothingburgers from the Lakers, not quite so good. But even that's still not bad!
   1627. PJ Martinez Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:57 PM (#5842124)
I mean, Zion, Jrue, Jayson Tatum, and an assortment of minor goodies from Boston is a pretty good foundation from which to build a team from scratch!
Let the bidding begin. (They should probably trade Holiday, too, though.)
   1628. APNY Posted: May 14, 2019 at 09:58 PM (#5842125)
Morant/Zion would have been tempting for NO if the Knicks got 2. But the 3rd pick in a 2 player draft is so Knicks.
   1629. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:06 PM (#5842126)
[1627] Why trade Jrue? He's 28 years old, well liked in the community, worth his contract, and a great complement to Zion.
   1630. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:07 PM (#5842127)
When Curry does crap like that — running, leaning 25-footers — it's just impossible to do anything but throw up your hands.
   1631. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:18 PM (#5842130)
When Curry does crap like that — running, leaning 25-footers — it's just impossible to do anything but throw up your hands


I find that highly entertaining when he does it most of the time, but deeply annoying when he does it against the Blazers.
   1632. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:25 PM (#5842131)
I'm not annoyed, since I want to see Warriors vs. Bucks happen. Mine was not a post of annoyance, but helplessness. It's like a cheat code in a video game. It's impossible to stop.
   1633. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:27 PM (#5842133)
:: Sigh ::
   1634. . . . . . . Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:32 PM (#5842135)
#### fuck ####
   1635. spivey Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:37 PM (#5842136)
With how well Portland is rebounding, this should be close. They have had ok shots too I think. Just not playing well enough.
   1636. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5842137)
The Sixers were in an ideal position then to pull off a blockbuster with New Orleans. As I said here at the time, I really think they could've dealt Simmons and their war chest of picks and expirings for AD and Jrue. They'd have an awful lot of money tied up in their resulting 4-man core, but Jrue, Butler, Davis, and Embiid would've been a ridiculously awesome core. I don't think something like that is feasible anymore, because they no longer have the assets and market power to pull it off, and in any event they've now missed out on 1 of the 2 years Davis has left under contract.

i don't think there were any circumstances where NOP would trade AD at the deadline. the GM already had one foot out the door, and it seems unlikely that they would have agreed to trade AD when BOS was unable to bid for his services.

that being said, i agree with this take:
In exchange for a couple months of Tobias Harris, they gave up 3 first rounders, including the unprotected Miami pick and an already-useful rookie (Shamet), two future second rounders from Detroit, and a collection of expiring contracts. That's just not a good use of resources, especially considering that the Bucks acquired a very similar player in Mirotic for nothing but second rounders and contract filler.

that was a really bad decision. not just on the merits, but also considering how much they gave up in that deal, they could have at least held out until LAC added in patrick beverley or avery bradley or even just garrett temple.
I don't think any way Philly does that. Embiid is the face, and is locked up long term.
yeah, there's no way the sixers buy in on that.
Kinda feel like Redick did exactly what he as being paid to do, and also what he's able to do. Redick isn't remotely the problem. Simmons is the problem, a much, much bigger problem than Sixers fans are willing to admit to.
redick doing what redick did wouldn't be a problem if embiid didn't contract some syphilitic plague.

redick is only on the court because of his offense. when the sixers needed someone to step up in embiid's absence, yeah, sure, it should have been ben simmons, but also, the reason why redick and harris are on the court is to score ####### points. they didn't.


At least that loss hasn't ruined your sense of humor.
other than kawhi, TOR couldn't get anything going offensively. having that ####### guy come off the bench to pester the living hell out of kawhi could have made a huge difference in the outcome of the series if he could have slowed him down. even if he couldn't do better than ben simmons, he could at least have given the sixers an 8th player who could stay on the court in the series.
   1637. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM (#5842138)
I'm not annoyed, since I want to see Warriors vs. Bucks happen. Mine was not a post of annoyance, but helplessness. It's like a cheat code in a video game. It's impossible to stop.
chris truby isn't walking through that door.
   1638. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:40 PM (#5842139)
I mean, Kanter is getting roasted here, but it's not his fault. This is 100% on the coaching staff. You cannot drop the big against Steph ####### Curry.
   1639. Moeball Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:46 PM (#5842140)
Have heart, those who didn't crack the top 2 picks - lots of game changing - and franchise changing - picks came from lower in the draft. Years from now we could be discussing some perennial all star and MVP candidate from this draft class not named Zion or Ja. Remember, wasn't Curry a #7 pick? Nobody thought he'd be anywhere near this good at the time, and he totally turned a franchise around, so it can happen. Even MJ was only a #3 and he totally turned a franchise around, too. Granted, it's unusual, but miracles do happen sometimes. Just ask Kawhi!
   1640. sardonic Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:46 PM (#5842141)
Those behind the back passes to no one from Curry aren't nearly as aggravating when he's 8-13 from 3.
   1641. KronicFatigue Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:48 PM (#5842143)
I don't understand how such an unselfish team like the Warriors can be so sloppy with the ball. The unnecessary wild behind the back passes by Curry when they have "comfortable" 2nd half leads drive me crazy. Be boring. Run efficient plays and just keep scoring.

Reminds me of Charles Oakley fighting like a beast for a loose ball / rebound, only to throw the outlet pass away.
   1642. KronicFatigue Posted: May 14, 2019 at 10:50 PM (#5842145)
what's the opposite of a coke? Pepsi? Seltzer? That's what I owe 1640
   1643. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:04 PM (#5842150)
Have heart, those who didn't crack the top 2 picks - lots of game changing - and franchise changing - picks came from lower in the draft. Years from now we could be discussing some perennial all star and MVP candidate from this draft class not named Zion or Ja. Remember, wasn't Curry a #7 pick? Nobody thought he'd be anywhere near this good at the time, and he totally turned a franchise around, so it can happen. Even MJ was only a #3 and he totally turned a franchise around, too. Granted, it's unusual, but miracles do happen sometimes. Just ask Kawhi!


Just looking at like... the top 20 this season in VORP from bask-ref:

1. James Harden, #3 in 2009
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo, #15 in 2013
3. Nikola Jokic, #41 in 2014
4. Rudy Gobert, #27 in 2013
5. Karl-Anthony Towns, #1 in 2015
6. Russell Westbrook, #4 in 2008 (man, Russ is older than I thought)
7. Damian Lillard, #6 in 2012
8. Paul George, #10 in 2010
9. Nikola Vucevic, #16 in 2011
10. Anthony Davis, #1 in 2012

11. LeBron James, #1 in 2003
12. Stephen Curry, #7 in 2009
13. Kyrie Irving, #1 in 2011
14. Blake Griffin, #1 in 2009
15. Kevin Durant, #2 in 2007
16. Ben Simmons, #1 in 2016
17. Kemba Walker, #9 in 2011
18. Bradley Beal, #3 in 2012
19. Kawhi Leonard, #15 in 2011
20. Luka Doncic, #3 in 2018
   1644. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:07 PM (#5842152)
So that's 10 out of 20 that were top 3 picks, 15 out of 20 that were top 10 picks. Of the remaining five, four were Euros from the 2011-2013 classes and the fifth was Kawhi.
   1645. KronicFatigue Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:20 PM (#5842154)
Houston and GS winding up on the same side of the bracket really killed these WCF.
   1646. PJ Martinez Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:23 PM (#5842155)
I don't understand how such an unselfish team like the Warriors can be so sloppy with the ball.
Don't these things go hand in hand? Generally teams that pass more turn the ball over more, I think. (I don't generally root for the Warriors but their occasionally reckless pass-happiness, particularly when Durant isn't playing, is probably my favorite thing about them. Boring teams are boring.)
   1647. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 14, 2019 at 11:26 PM (#5842156)
Houston and GS winding up on the same side of the bracket really killed these WCF.


On the other hand, it made a really awesome Portland-Denver series possible in the second round, and Golden State was always going to win the West (and the title) anyway, so I think we came out ahead of the universe where Golden State crushed Portland while Houston crushed Denver in the second round. (Though I'm far from sure that second thing would actually have happened.)
   1648. sardonic Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:25 AM (#5842166)
On the other hand, it made a really awesome Portland-Denver series possible in the second round, and Golden State was always going to win the West (and the title) anyway, so I think we came out ahead of the universe where Golden State crushed Portland while Houston crushed Denver in the second round. (Though I'm far from sure that second thing would actually have happened.)


Totally random seeding it is!
   1649. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:51 AM (#5842170)
Totally random seeding it is!
####### right.

also, i'd like to revise my other #hoopidea. previously, i said that a 3P had to be a swish in order count for 3 points.

i would now like to change that: a 3P shot should only count for 3Ps if you hit the rim and the backboard before a shot goes in.

also, get rid of basket interference, so that once a shot hits the rim, it's live.
   1650. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:51 AM (#5842171)
[1644] Not that I think he's one of the top 20 players in the NBA, but Vucevic isn't a Euro per se, he played three seasons for USC.
   1651. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:50 AM (#5842173)
Draft: NO is a great city, but I am not really down with a team owned by the Bensons that has not done much with Davis lucking into Williamson. YMMV. It does as noted add yet another set of pieces to the offseason chessboard noted by berg.
NO: Could shift, but my initial reaction is that Davis will be gone for sure, and maybe Randle too. I think they will keep Holiday.
NY: Tough one for their fans, math or not.
Lakers: #4 pick is a pretty good asset if they want to try to get Bradley Beal.
   1652. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 15, 2019 at 03:11 AM (#5842174)
redick is only on the court because of his offense. when the sixers needed someone to step up in embiid's absence, yeah, sure, it should have been ben simmons, but also, the reason why redick and harris are on the court is to score ####### points. they didn't.
Hold on, there. Role players are there to fill roles. Sure, it would be nice if Redick could just start pumping in buckets like Steph Curry, but if that's what you're counting on, you're gonna lose.

Toronto had a lot to do with the poor shooting, too. The Raptors are a terrific defensive squad, and they were great that last game.
   1653. . Posted: May 15, 2019 at 07:18 AM (#5842181)
None-zero chance Zion does more than cursory balking at being stuck going to NO. Not a high chance, but a distinctly non-zero chance.
   1654. sardonic Posted: May 15, 2019 at 08:38 AM (#5842200)
Just belatedly put together that David Griffin has now won the lottery for the fourth time.
   1655. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: May 15, 2019 at 08:48 AM (#5842202)
Draft: NO is a great city, but I am not really down with a team owned by the Bensons that has not done much with Davis lucking into Williamson. YMMV.

That was my initial reaction, too. Then I remembered how epically they told the Lakers to go eat an entire bag of dicks this season, and I felt totally fine with them getting Zion. YMMV.
   1656. spivey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 09:18 AM (#5842210)
The announcer's commentary was cringe-worthy bad during the draft show last night. I had to put it on mute after she made some comment about Kuzma's lucky suit.
   1657. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 09:32 AM (#5842217)
Hold on, there. Role players are there to fill roles. Sure, it would be nice if Redick could just start pumping in buckets like Steph Curry, but if that's what you're counting on, you're gonna lose.

sure, maybe. on the other hand, they lost anyway. meanwhile, rodney hood randomly broke out to score 25 points in game 6 vs. DEN, and POR didn't lose.

i don't think it's unreasonable to expect a 10+MM role player who does not play any defense, does not rebound, is not a playmaker, who is only in the NBA because of his scoring ability, can have a game where he scores 25 points.


trade machine: who says no?
PHI: lonzo ball, #4 overall pick
LAL: ben simmons
   1658. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5842222)
1655:Most of my recent Haterboy experiences have been with guys inside the fan base with LeBron issues. But the draft finals and FA always bring out some non regulars.
1656: Seen a little spec about that based on his facial expressions. But it will almost certainly go nowhere as suggested.
   1659. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 15, 2019 at 10:12 AM (#5842228)
Now that I have accepted that Zion will not be a Knick...is R.J. Barrett + stuff enough to be the best AD offer?

Draft: NO is a great city, but I am not really down with a team owned by the Bensons that has not done much with Davis lucking into Williamson. YMMV.

They had CP3, screwed that up, immediately got AD, screwed that up, immediately get Zion.
   1660. spivey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 10:21 AM (#5842234)
Now that I have accepted that Zion will not be a Knick...is R.J. Barrett + stuff enough to be the best AD offer?


No, unless they have a really weird valuation of Barrett.
   1661. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 15, 2019 at 10:24 AM (#5842237)
[1660] To clarify, I am assuming Davis will insist on being traded and NO will have to choose a package. Who can/will trump that. In my mind that's probably better than the Lakers package just based off contracts/cost, not sure about the rest.

EDIT: Reading Lowe's column and just got to the part where he puts the Laker's package ahead of the Knicks'.
   1662. spivey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 10:34 AM (#5842241)
I think most analytics-y fans think Ingram or Ball are more intriguing prospects than Barrett, and I think the "stuff" the Lakers can offer is better than the Knicks' stuff. I'm thinking there's a good chance Tatum is available, and he's a high end version of Barrett. I'd take Jaylen Brown over Barrett too. Simmons should be available if he's not, though getting the salary to line up could be tricky?

I think the Knicks offer is probably the worst. That said, you could probably get some good role player talent with the #4 pick, if/when you get max guys.
   1663. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:02 AM (#5842255)
I think all the offers are going to be significantly worse than the Lakers offer at the deadline. You only get AD for one playoffs now.
   1664. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5842264)
Draft: NO is a great city, but I am not really down with a team owned by the Bensons that has not done much with Davis lucking into Williamson. YMMV.

They had CP3, screwed that up, immediately got AD, screwed that up, immediately get Zion.


Not trying to sound snarky, but you could write an entire page about things the Knicks screwed up over the last 2 decades. It's kind of amusing that so many people (mostly elsewhere, but a few here) are disappointed that a poorly run organization like the Pelicans lucked into Zion while hoping that the Knicks - THE KNICKS! - got him instead.
   1665. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5842267)
Not trying to sound snarky, but you could write an entire page about things the Knicks screwed up over the last 2 decades. It's kind of amusing that so many people (mostly elsewhere, but a few here) are disappointed that a poorly run organization like the Pelicans lucked into Zion while hoping that the Knicks - THE KNICKS! - got him instead.

Look, we're poorly run, but we were/are poorly run without ever having the hope of a franchise altering star. As much as I love(d) Kristaps, he was never that and they're getting 3 bites at that apple! IT'S NOT FAIR!!!
   1666. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5842273)
Look, we're poorly run, but we were/are poorly run without ever having the hope of a franchise altering star. As much as I love(d) Kristaps, he was never that and they're getting 3 bites at that apple! IT'S NOT FAIR!!!

jeremy lin isn't walking through that door.
   1667. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5842274)
It's kind of amusing that so many people (mostly elsewhere, but a few here) are disappointed that a poorly run organization like the Pelicans lucked into Zion while hoping that the Knicks - THE KNICKS! - got him instead.


This is partly your own emotional baggage as a fan--big marketzzz baaad. The Knicks have a lot of intense, loyal fans, and they have not caught many breaks since the 1985 lottery and the retirement of Dick Bavetta. New Orleans OTOH is a football town, the Pelicans are run by kind of a mouthy football family, seem to have kind of an indifferent fanbase, caught a couple of breaks with the Veto and winning the AD lottery, and have not capitalized while having a franchise player for several years. Obviously no one is rooting for James Dolan, but the Knicks have not won a title since Richard Nixon was POTUS. I get that people would have freaked out if Williamson had landed with the Lakers, but the Knicks are a very different thing than the Lakers, unless you just see NY and LA as one big conglomeration of evil.
   1668. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5842280)
Look, we're poorly run, but we were/are poorly run without ever having the hope of a franchise altering star. As much as I love(d) Kristaps, he was never that and they're getting 3 bites at that apple! IT'S NOT FAIR!!!

Oh, I totally get hoping your team ended up with him. Fans of every team in the lottery no doubt felt that way. I know I would have. There's nothing wrong with that.

It's fans playing the "deserve" game when by their own definition their team didn't really "deserve" him either that strikes me as a bit ironic. Let's be honest - MOST of the teams in the lottery this year have been pretty poorly run the past few years (at least). From a neutral standpoint, NOP doesn't stand out as being any more of a clown-shoes organization than several of the others in the Zion sweepstakes.

Also, you don't need a #1 pick to end up with a franchise altering star. You mentioned NOP getting CP3, but they got him with a 4th pick.
   1669. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:48 AM (#5842285)
Reading Lowe's column and just got to the part where he puts the Laker's package ahead of the Knicks'.


I think the Lakers getting the #4 pick, NO getting the #1 pick, Demps getting fired, and Magic Johnson quitting all does probably put Davis in play for the Lakers. But I will be surprised if it happens. As I said earlier, my gut prediction on Davis is that NO trades him to Indiana, Denver, or Portland, and the team that gets him tries for a Paul George/OKC scenario with him. I have nothing to back that up--just a theory. But my guess is that Davis will not start next year with the Lakers, Knicks, or Celtics.

This is shaping up as the most interesting and impactful off-season that I can remember.
   1670. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5842288)
This is partly your own emotional baggage as a fan--big marketzzz baaad.


Well, I've never bought into the mindset that big markets deserve all the big stars, if that's what you mean. People talk about what's best for the league all the time, but the NBA has done just fine the past 2 decades when the Knicks were mostly bad. They've done fine the last 6 years when the Lakers were bad, too. They did fine in the 90's when the Celtics were bad. They did fine in the 2000's when the Bulls were bad. The league doesn't NEED any specific team(s) to be good to be successful. If Zion is as good as everyone thinks/hopes he'll be, he'll get plenty famous in New Orleans, same as LeBron did in Cleveland, Durant in OKC, Giannis in Milwaukee, etc.

the Knicks have not won a title since Richard Nixon was POTUS


And a lot of other teams - including the Pelicans - never have.
   1671. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5842291)
It's fans playing the "deserve" game when by their own definition their team didn't really "deserve" him either that strikes me as a bit ironic.


Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

I look at it more in terms of the Bill Simmons Fan Suffering Index stuff than in terms of how "clownshoes" the organization is. I think New York fans are pretty high on that list.

   1672. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 11:57 AM (#5842294)
I look at it more in terms of the Bill Simmons Fan Suffering Index stuff than in terms of how "clownshoes" the organization is. I think New York fans are pretty high on that list.


Fair enough.
   1673. KronicFatigue Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5842302)
Don't these things go hand in hand? Generally teams that pass more turn the ball over more, I think. (I don't generally root for the Warriors but their occasionally reckless pass-happiness, particularly when Durant isn't playing, is probably my favorite thing about them. Boring teams are boring.)


Yeah teams that pass more probably turn it over more. But the turnovers I complained about are the show-offy kind that aren't adding any value to the offense. Most of the time they work so hard to find the best shot, because they are smart enough to realize that's the best shot at winning. Most of the time Curry is unselfish and is just as happy for Green to get a wide open three as he is to take a semi contested one himself.

But then sometimes, when a simple bounce pass would do, he instead tries to go behind the back and the ball winds up in the stands. And sometimes, the clock+score is such that the best way to increase the chance of winning is for Curry to stand still for 23 seconds and chuck a three, but instead they'll sloppily run a break and force a bad pass.
   1674. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5842304)
And a lot of other teams - including the Pelicans - never have.


The Knicks were playing in New York when the NBA started the year after WW2. The Pelicans are a 90s expansion franchise that has been in NO since 2002. Not the same thing at all.

Well, I've never bought into the mindset that big markets deserve all the big stars, if that's what you mean.


Not what I mean at all. All the big markets are not the same. Different fanbases, different histories, different cities--but what we see here sometimes, especially from you, is grouping the Knicks and the Lakers and the Celtics and the Bulls together. The small markets are different as well--Indiana, Portland, Utah, Denver, Milwaukee, San Antonio, etc. all have different backdrops, although they are sometimes grouped together for argument purposes.

And yes, I have said several times that in today's digital media age, guys can get famous anywhere. That is one reason among many why the small-market teams have no problems winning in today's NBA. Portland, Toronto, and Milwaukee all made the conference finals. And this is one reason why the Knicks catching a break on Williamson would not have been a bad thing.
   1675. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:14 PM (#5842305)
Yeah teams that pass more probably turn it over more. But the turnovers I complained about are the show-offy kind that aren't adding any value to the offense. Most of the time they work so hard to find the best shot, because they are smart enough to realize that's the best shot at winning. Most of the time Curry is unselfish and is just as happy for Green to get a wide open three as he is to take a semi contested one himself.

But then sometimes, when a simple bounce pass would do, he instead tries to go behind the back and the ball winds up in the stands. And sometimes, the clock+score is such that the best way to increase the chance of winning is for Curry to stand still for 23 seconds and chuck a three, but instead they'll sloppily run a break and force a bad pass.


Curry literally had one turnover last night.
   1676. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5842308)
And this is one reason why the Knicks catching a break on Williamson would not have been a bad thing.


Didn't say it would have been. But I don't think NOP catching a break on Williamson is a bad thing either.

Again, I totally get why Knicks fans - or fans of any other team that missed out - are disappointed. I just think the animosity towards the Pelicans specifically comes across as ironic. YMMV.
   1677. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5842310)
I think all the offers are going to be significantly worse than the Lakers offer at the deadline. You only get AD for one playoffs now.


Well, that was true about the Lakers' deadline offer, too. <rim shot>
   1678. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5842313)
Didn't say it would have been. But I don't think NOP catching a break on Williamson is a bad thing either.

Again, I totally get why Knicks fans - or fans of any other team that missed out - are disappointed. I just think the animosity towards the Pelicans specifically comes across as ironic. YMMV.


I think that the New Orleans medical staff is a big reason to not want Zion on the Pelicans.
   1679. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:36 PM (#5842315)
I think that the New Orleans medical staff is a big reason to not want Zion on the Pelicans.


As Moses mentioned in 1607, New Orleans just hired the Suns former lead trainer. That's...well, at least a reason to be hopeful.
   1680. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5842321)
I don't think it's worth anything, but apparently RJ killed it in a meeting with Knicks brass this morning.
   1681. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5842323)
I don't think it's worth anything, but apparently RJ killed it in a meeting with Knicks brass this morning.


Well, it could be worse. It could be Cam Reddish.
   1682. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5842330)

I think that the New Orleans medical staff is a big reason to not want Zion on the Pelicans.

David Griffin has already brought in his own medical people. From all accounts Griffin has carte blanche to do what he wants so I don't think this is the same old Pelicans.
   1683. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:02 PM (#5842331)
As Moses mentioned in 1607, New Orleans just hired the Suns former lead trainer. That's...well, at least a reason to be hopeful.

IIRC they also moved responsibilities for the team around, so the basketball people no longer report into the football side of the house. There are reasons for hope.
   1684. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:02 PM (#5842332)
I just think the animosity towards the Pelicans specifically comes across as ironic. YMMV.

Outside of one person, I don't think most of the people here annoyed with the Pels winning were also hoping for the Knicks to get the pick (excluding Knicks fans). In the Pels case, they still have AD and didn't do #### with him, and he was the last next big thing/All-Star & MVP candidate lock #1 pick. There was a little annoyance/animosity/conspiracy talk after they won the AD lotto so soon after the CP3 stuff (even though I don't recall feeling that way that time).

It's also not about who really deserves him, but there are certain situations where it feels like a team maybe undeserves him more than others, and this whole AD situation is as obvious of a current example there is. I said before, all things being equal, I'm totally fine with him going to that sort of team in that sort of market and really do hope it works out there for him and the team.

A. I don't agree with that interpretation of the Davis era and
B. Most of the rest of the teams in the lottery are also there for a reason.


A. Tell me how this isn't squandering him. Last year is a different thing and AD deserves plenty of blame for that, but they've already gotten one golden egg and did nothing with it.
B. Yes, bad teams are bad for a reason, a lot of times most of those are self-inflicted. Regardless, see point A. (yes, I'd be saying something similar if he went to a number of places)
   1685. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:09 PM (#5842337)
i don't think it's unreasonable to expect a 10+MM role player who does not play any defense, does not rebound, is not a playmaker, who is only in the NBA because of his scoring ability, can have a game where he scores 25 points.
He's been in the league 13 years, so you should know exactly who he is, and he's in his mid-30s now. He shot nearly 41% from the arc during the series on nearly 8 attempts a game — exactly what you should reasonably expect. Looking for more out of him isn't a reasonable expectation, it's a prayer.

trade machine: who says no?
PHI: lonzo ball, #4 overall pick
LAL: ben simmons
Nah. The Regular-sized Rondo experience sucked already. A total non-shooter like Giant Rondo would be as worthless as a doorstop on a team with Lebron.

Seriously, a prime ballhandler not taking even one single shot outside the paint across seven games? That's not an inability to shoot, that's a fear of shooting.
   1686. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:27 PM (#5842346)
#1684 - NOP has certainly made their share of mistakes. They've given out some dumb contracts, and I don't think anyone has argued that they've been well run overall...but they did bring in Holiday, Cousins, Randle, and Mirotic, so I don't think the narrative (not from you, or even on this site necessarily) that they never tried very hard to give Davis a decent supporting cast is entirely accurate, either.
   1687. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 15, 2019 at 01:38 PM (#5842349)
A total non-shooter like Giant Rondo would be as worthless as a doorstop on a team with Lebron.

I've come around to thinking that Simmons really needs to be put in a situation like Giannis to see what he can be. Given that Philly seems settled on Embiid (I think that's the right choice unless you're scared of his long-term durability), who should trade for Simmons? Phoenix? Memphis after they trade Conley if they don't love Morant? The Clippers if they strike out on max guys? Regardless of location, unless the Sixers suddenly start featuring an Embiid/Simmons PnR next year I think Simmons would be better-served to get traded somewhere that could put the ball in his hands with shooters around him.
   1688. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:15 PM (#5842364)
Nah. The Regular-sized Rondo experience sucked already. A total non-shooter like Giant Rondo would be as worthless as a doorstop on a team with Lebron.

Seriously, a prime ballhandler not taking even one single shot outside the paint across seven games? That's not an inability to shoot, that's a fear of shooting.


Ehhh, I could be talked into it. Regular Rondo sucked because he's an absolutely awful defender. Simmons doesn't have that issue. He's duplicative with LeBron, but that might be okay.
   1689. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:26 PM (#5842368)
Simmons doesn't have that issue. He's duplicative with LeBron, but that might be okay.

I genuinely don't think Ben Simmons is currently a good basketball player. I think people are really, really underselling the shooting thing. He would be useless next to LeBron.
   1690. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5842377)
I genuinely don't think Ben Simmons is currently a good basketball player. I think people are really, really underselling the shooting thing. He would be useless next to LeBron.
that is insane.
   1691. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:37 PM (#5842379)
I genuinely don't think Ben Simmons is currently a good basketball player. I think people are really, really underselling the shooting thing. He would be useless next to LeBron.


This is an interesting point of view.

What drives this? He was a positive player by +/- in the playoffs (after being a negative in the regular season).

All the meta stats describe him as a fringe all star.

What makes you believe he is not?
   1692. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5842380)
I've come around to thinking that Simmons really needs to be put in a situation like Giannis to see what he can be. Given that Philly seems settled on Embiid (I think that's the right choice unless you're scared of his long-term durability), who should trade for Simmons?

indiana.
utah.
washington.
charlotte.
san antonio.
denver.
   1693. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5842382)
What makes you believe he is not?
simmons' assist to turnover ratio was only 2:1.
his TS% was only 58% on 22% usage.
he only had 2 STL+BLK per game.
he only averaged 9 rebounds per game.


clearly this is a player who is less valuable than jonathan simmons.
   1694. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5842384)
indiana.
utah.
washington.
charlotte.
san antonio.
denver.


Indiana is interesting. Would really solve a lot of their issues, and Sabonis would be a better backup C for Philly. Collison would also add another shooter in the back court. I could see a deal there.

Utah, Charlotte, Denver: No. This takes the ball out of the hands of someone they prefer to have it (assuming Kemba stays).

San Antonio: this is interesting. Poor fit with DeRozan.

Washington: probably? But they just need talent.
   1695. Booey Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5842386)
who should trade for Simmons?

indiana.
utah.
washington.
charlotte.
san antonio.
denver.


With a current starting lineup featuring Gobert, Favors, and Rubio, Utah's #1 need is outside shooting. How would Simmons help with that? He's significantly less of a floor spacer than Rubio, and that's saying something.
   1696. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:55 PM (#5842389)
Utah, Charlotte, Denver: No. This takes the ball out of the hands of someone they prefer to have it (assuming Kemba stays).
kemba isn't staying in CHO.
donovan mitchell with 30+% usage is untenable.
denver...maybe, but replacing murray with simmons would be a huge defensive improvement.
   1697. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 15, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5842392)
I genuinely don't think Ben Simmons is currently a good basketball player. I think people are really, really underselling the shooting thing. He would be useless next to LeBron.
You're overselling it. Simmons is clearly, obviously a good player. The problem is that his deficiencies are also clear and obvious, and in the playoffs, those deficiencies get exposed. instead of saying Simmons isn't good, it's more accurate to say Simmons isn't a championship player. He doesn't have the ability (or whatever) to be the key cog for a winner, not until he learns how to shoot.
   1698. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: May 15, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5842398)
With a current starting lineup featuring Gobert, Favors, and Rubio, Utah's #1 need is outside shooting. How would Simmons help with that? He's significantly less of a floor spacer than Rubio, and that's saying something.
rubio is a free agent.
favors is easily tradeable.

simmons replaces rubio.
someone like tobias harris can replace favors.

sign a shooter that you can bring off the bench, someone like jj redick.


boom. there's your shooting solved. talent upgraded. and you'd still have mitchell and gobbert (and maybe even jingles).

You're overselling it. Simmons is clearly, obviously a good player. The problem is that his deficiencies are also clear and obvious, and in the playoffs, those deficiencies get exposed. instead of saying Simmons isn't good, it's more accurate to say Simmons isn't a championship player. He doesn't have the ability (or whatever) to be the key cog for a winner, not until he learns how to shoot.
michael jordan didn't win a playoff series until he was 24.
   1699. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2019 at 03:04 PM (#5842402)
All the meta stats describe him as a fringe all star.

RPM has him as the 17th best PG in the league this year. 12th in RPM Wins. The BBRef stats like him a lot more, certainly, conceded.

He was a positive player by +/- in the playoffs (after being a negative in the regular season).

I'm leaning heavily on the latter (bolded) piece, and the crunch time lineup/fit issues.

In the playoff 5 man lineup numbers it just looks to me like Embiid and Butler are carrying all the weight. He's an elite, in theory, point guard with a 16.6 playoff USG. He took 8.6 shots per game against Toronto, 5 each in their last two losses. What is the lineup made better with Ben Simmons compared to average point guard X?

And also, yeah, my initial post was an exaggeration, "not good" is an exaggeration, Hombre has that exactly right. But I think he's in conversations he doesn't belong in.

EDIT: See the final sentence in the above post for exhibit A of that.
   1700. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5842403)
You're overselling it. Simmons is clearly, obviously a good player. The problem is that his deficiencies are also clear and obvious, and in the playoffs, those deficiencies get exposed. instead of saying Simmons isn't good, it's more accurate to say Simmons isn't a championship player. He doesn't have the ability (or whatever) to be the key cog for a winner, not until he learns how to shoot.


I think there are at least two potential paths for Simmons:

Rich man's Draymond: Simmons leans into the defensive potential he's shown. Becomes an all world switch defender that focuses on providing elite help defense in the interior, rather than perimeter defense (which is less valuable).

Poor man's Giannis: Simmons is surrounded by shooters, and focuses on getting to the basket or dishing.

Both of these players are potentially championship players.
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