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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6831 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   4801. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 28, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5856830)
4796 - i'm optimistic for milwaukee. lose nikola. keep brogdon and middleton. maybe get lopez to stay (cap room). granted, that's based on NOTHING.
uh, more or less the happy part of what paste said.
mirotic has bird rights; hill has bird rights; lopez doesn't. they should probably just keep mirotic and hill.

they should keep middleton

they should let brogdon leave (or match a semi-reasonable offer, but then dump one of him/bledsoe/middleton at the deadline next year).

   4802. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 28, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5856831)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
The Orlando Magic are preparing a four-year offer believed to be in excess of $90 million to their All-Star center Nikola Vucevic in hopes of completing a deal shortly after Sunday's opening bell in free agency, league sources say


"i wish i had a guy in my life who stopped me before i did something stupid...i don't know why he's an opera singer."
   4803. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 28, 2019 at 05:01 PM (#5856836)
I think mirotic gets an offer they won’t want to match
   4804. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 28, 2019 at 05:18 PM (#5856838)
Shams: BRK makes Russell a RFA with a QO.

Others: Magic is part of the Lakers' meeting with Kawhi (as well as LBJ and AD).
   4805. aberg Posted: June 28, 2019 at 05:19 PM (#5856839)
I have heard surprisingly little about the market for Mirotic. Of course, that doesn't mean he'll struggle to get paid.
   4806. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 28, 2019 at 05:25 PM (#5856842)
I have been traveling, but here is a belated writeup of the ORLANDO MAGIC BTF offseason.

The big get of course was Jrue Holiday. If he is as good as his on/off numbers over the last couple of years, we are an Eastern Conference contender if Kawhi leaves Toronto, Butler leaves Philly, and Milwaukee loses a key piece or two. Even if he's not quite that good (likely), this team should be a solid playoff team for the next couple years and if one of Isaac, Gordon, or Bamba makes the leap (probably Isaac), could be a contender anyway.

We will need to do some work in free agency to fill out the roster, as we have little depth. With our first draft pick we drafted SG Quinndary Weatherspoon, who should be able to compete for a rotation spot right away, but we still need a starting two-guard, a backup center, and maybe another wing. Fortunately, we have a fair amount of cap room to play with and no state tax. We have Holiday for two years and during that time Isaac and Bamba will still be cheap; after two years we'll likely be faced with some big decisions about how to proceed, but will have a lot more data.

PG: Holiday (26M) / Augustin (7.25))
SG: ???? / Weatherspoon
SF: Gordon (19.8) / Iwundu (1.6)
PF: Isaac (5.8)
C: ???? / Bamba (5.7)

Dead money: Fultz (9.7M), Jonathon Simmons (1M, rest is unguaranteed), CJ Watson (0.3M stretched)
Cap space: about 33M
Others: Louis King, our other draft pick, is a project and will likely be spending most of his time in the G League.

If Fultz manages to contribute, that's a bonus, but we're not counting on him. In free agency, we'll be offering Vucevic a deal to come back in the 4/70 range, but if that's not enough to get the job done, we're okay getting an unspectacular center as we'll be working on trying to assemble sort of homeless man's death lineup with Isaac at the 5 and Gordon at the 4 to close.

We may as well go hard after Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler. Maybe one of them wants a max contract with no state tax -- we should be able to clear a couple more million (e.g. by trading Fultz for dead money less of which is in this year) if that happens, and fill out a roster with minimum guys. Assuming we can't get either of them, we'll be targeting splitting 33M among second and third tier free agents, guys like, in no particular order:

To play the 2: Danny Green, Goran Dragic, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Seth Curry, Jeremy Lamb, Delon Wright
To play the 5: Brook Lopez, Robin Lopez, JaVale McGee, Luke Kornet, Ivica Zubac, Dewayne Dedmon, Alan Williams, BOBAN

This isn't an exhaustive list, just a sampling of the kinds of players we'd be going after. We will kick the tires on Brogdon but don't expect he'd be in our price range with the portfolio approach. Some of the above are RFA's; since we have a lot of cap room and are using a portfolio approach, we don't mind having our cap room tied up for a few days. We plan to shotgun our discussion instead of focusing on a guy or two. Hopefully we end up with a solid shooter at the 2, a passable 20-minute-a-game guy at center, and one more rotation caliber player with our $33M in cap space. We'll be aiming to sign two year deals.
   4807. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 28, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5856847)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago

What we know (we hope) just 48 hours before the start of NBA free agency:

*Kemba to Boston

*Klay stays

*Kyrie to Brooklyn -- unless the Lakers miss on Kawhi and swoop in

*Khris M stays -- unless Milwaukee's five-year offer is less than expected

*Vucevic stays with Orlando


Guess it'll be worth watching to see how right he is.

---

Magic now denies he'll be meeting with Kawhi officially, and he's not allowed to.
   4808. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5856848)
Well, we're not quite there yet, but everything seems to be coming up robin lately. Reports are now that Kawhi will meet with LA and Magic will be part of that. Let's say LA adds Kawhi to Davis and LBJ: does that make LBJ the third best player on the team? Does LBJ care how that will advance a narrative about his rings?
   4809. JJ1986 Posted: June 28, 2019 at 07:05 PM (#5856854)
I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think the Bucks have bird rights on Hill after waiving him.
   4810. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 28, 2019 at 11:36 PM (#5856916)
Whoa - Darren Collison retires at 31. He was still decent...
Link at the undefeated
   4811. tshipman Posted: June 28, 2019 at 11:40 PM (#5856917)
Came here to post that, Der-K.

You didn't quote the weird part:

Basketball has been my life since I was a child. I could never imagine finding anything that brings me more joy than I get from playing the game. While I still love basketball, I know there is something more important, which is my family and my faith. I am one of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and my faith means everything to me. I receive so much joy from volunteering to help others and participate in a worldwide ministry. The joy I feel is unmatched.


What in the name of Prince is going on here?
   4812. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 28, 2019 at 11:40 PM (#5856918)
hill - they wouldn’t

If Kawhi signs with the lakers, I’ll eat a hat. Well, a hat shaped cake, but I won’t like it.
   4813. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 28, 2019 at 11:41 PM (#5856919)
Collison as a JW ... yeah.

With that group, I think of Prince and Jerry Minor (who got out).
   4814. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 12:07 AM (#5856923)
Note: I’m not trying to denigrate anyone’s faith or lack thereof. It is interesting when it results in a career change, though.
   4815. Howie Menckel Posted: June 29, 2019 at 12:19 AM (#5856926)
You didn't quote the weird part:

what's weird about it?
   4816. tshipman Posted: June 29, 2019 at 01:10 AM (#5856932)
No OTP in the NBA thread!
   4817. Howie Menckel Posted: June 29, 2019 at 01:27 AM (#5856935)
agreed. I assume you regret your use of the word "weird" to characterize someone else's life choices.
it probably wouldn't kill you to make that plain to the group here, though.
   4818. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: June 29, 2019 at 01:27 AM (#5856936)
but everything seems to be coming up robin lately.


ha.

If Kawhi signs with the lakers, I’ll eat a hat.


double ha.

Following the Leonard stuff since the Lakers cleared the cap space, I am pretty sure that the NBA Twitterariat doesn't know what he is going to do, other than that he will almost certainly be in LA or Toronto. Even more, in a way, than with all these other guys, it will simply depend on what Leonard wants. He is in full control of his "narrative." He has two rings and two Finals MVPs with two different organizations. He can go for a second title for one of the best-run organizations in the game with fans who will love him no matter what happens, or he can be welcomed as a hero by either of the teams in his hometown. On one of them, he can be the defining player in the organization's history and maybe give that team a new identity. On the other, he can complete an historic three-man core on a team that remains one of the biggest sports brands on the planet. He seems to be a very introverted guy and he doesn't say much, so I see a lot of projection on-line from fans of the presumptive possible teams.

Obvious guess is the same though: short deal with Toronto.
   4819. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: June 29, 2019 at 01:37 AM (#5856937)
Read today that Durant will supposedly meet with four teams and no surprises: Brooklyn, New York, LA Clippers, and Golden State.
   4820. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 29, 2019 at 01:59 AM (#5856940)
Lowe mentioned something that had also occurred to me... if Kemba walks, as seems to be the current favorite, as a rebuilding Charlotte, it'd be tempting to take a flyer on Andrew Wiggins, right? What else are you going to do with the cap space? And you can presumably pick up some sort of draft asset along the way.
   4821. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:09 AM (#5856951)
The fans of Charlotte would get four years of watching Wiggins gun for scoring titles on 38-44 teams. Whether that's better or worse than their likely fate without him... dunno?

It would be better if Lowe et. al. would quit talking about Wiggins with phrases like "take a flyer". Wiggins is not a lottery ticket. He has never improved and is not going to improve. He is what he is. If you acquire him, you're eating his contract--Minnesota presumably paying you handsomely in draft capital to do so--and accepting that he's going to lead the league in missed shots and rarely even pretend to be interested in off-ball defense for you for the next four years.

I would personally rather just eat dead money--can you waive a guy making that much?--because it's impossible to build a team around him. He's the fourth best player on a good team but demands elite-tier usage and doesn't play defense or rebound.
   4822. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:31 AM (#5856960)
I guess you could stretch Wiggins? He has four years left so $120M over 9 years is $13M/year? That's a long time. The Nets still have one more season of Deron Williams dead cap on their books for the upcoming season. Nine years!

Magic is still trying to interject himself in Laker things. He really can't control himself. He must have some really good executives on his business-side and no real day-to-day responsibilities because wow...
   4823. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:16 AM (#5856965)
I guess you could stretch Wiggins? He has four years left so $120M over 9 years is $13M/year? That's a long time.


If that's true, honestly, I would consider that option if I were Minnesota, and couldn't find a taker. But that all depends on what Towns privately thinks, which we can't know.
   4824. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:47 AM (#5856983)
The fans of Charlotte would get four years of watching Wiggins gun for scoring titles on 38-44 teams. Whether that's better or worse than their likely fate without him... dunno?


For sure it's better! I don't think they make it to 38 wins though. But a 20-62 team with Wiggins is surely better from a marketing standpoint than a 20-62 team without Wiggins. If you're going to tank, at least give the fans a hook.

Maybe he will never improve, yeah, I'd bet on that, but, hey, it's at least possible that a change of scenery might yield a change in trajectory, and no but really, what the hell else are the Horcats doing with that cap space? Not breaking 45 wins in even the most optimistic of scenarios, that's for sure. Tank and tank spectacularly.
   4825. tshipman Posted: June 29, 2019 at 02:02 PM (#5857004)
It would be better if Lowe et. al. would quit talking about Wiggins with phrases like "take a flyer". Wiggins is not a lottery ticket. He has never improved and is not going to improve. He is what he is. If you acquire him, you're eating his contract--Minnesota presumably paying you handsomely in draft capital to do so--and accepting that he's going to lead the league in missed shots and rarely even pretend to be interested in off-ball defense for you for the next four years.


This is overstating things.

There's the glimmers of a good player buried in Andrew Wiggins. He's actually a great corner 3 guy--43% for his career. He's a good finisher at the rim (65.5% for his career). He's terrible in midrange and above the break, so there's a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed.

The contract is a problem, but if you got off some dead money, I wouldn't mind netting out at 15mm/year to take a flier on him. Like, imagine someone with 60mm in dead money as the trade target. If I were the Rockets, for instance, I might find a Chris Paul for Wiggins trade to make some counterintuitive sense.
   4826. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 29, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5857009)
There's the glimmers of a good player buried in Andrew Wiggins. He's actually a great corner 3 guy--43% for his career. He's a good finisher at the rim (65.5% for his career). He's terrible in midrange and above the break, so there's a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed.


Definitely true.

And that's why Wiggins will not improve: his weaknesses are imbedded in who he is. At no point between now and the End of Time is Andrew Wiggins ever going to wake up and say "you know, I would be a better player if I quit jacking contested jumpers and started giving a #### about what happens away from the ball." In all likelihood his coaches and teammates have been telling him that for years. He doesn't view basketball as a team sport.

Maybe it's not totally impossible that his entire concept of what basketball is will change. But it's a phenomenally bad idea to bet on it, at these stakes. And meanwhile, the player he is right now--that guy is a detriment to any attempt to rebuild a moribund team. His presence on the floor will stunt the development of young guys and frustrate coaches. You can't play modern, cohesive offense or defense around him. That's why, even for a team in Charlotte's position, I would hesitate to touch him, unless Minnesota was paying a lot of future capital to unload him.

All of that said, Minnesota might be best served holding onto him for one more year. A year from now I expect several teams will be carrying boondoggle 2 or 3 year contracts from this summer for mildly useful but not great veterans, and it might make finding someone to swallow Wiggins' contract while sending back an overpaid but mildly useful player more palatable.
   4827. PJ Martinez Posted: June 29, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5857019)
Mirotic apparently signing with Barcelona rather than an NBA team.
   4828. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5857020)
Instantly the best non nba player in the world. (I like him a lot, as people may recall)
Edit: rumor is utah was going to offer 3/45
   4829. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5857029)
I seem to only catch Mirotic at his worst, and have never seen much to get excited about. He was awful in the playoffs this year and got buried against Toronto. Terrible shot selection and easy to target on defense. There's obviously value there, his regular season numbers are fine enough.

That said, yeah, he obviously could have gotten paid to stay in the NBA, so this is certainly a surprising decision.
   4830. JC in DC Posted: June 29, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5857031)
I don't know: Salt Lake City or Barcelona? Money a wash? I can think of many reasons to choose Barcelona.
   4831. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5857044)
Kemba has told Charlotte he’s going to Boston for the max.
   4832. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 29, 2019 at 04:45 PM (#5857047)
yeah, Niko speaks Spanish and is clearly comfortable over there, so living in Barcelona and having a less taxing job must be appealing. Not a decision that most NBA players would or could make but it makes sense for him.
   4833. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 04:45 PM (#5857048)
Mirotic’s shot selection is iffy but he remained an efficient volume scorer because threes are worth more than twos and is widely considered a plus defender because of his surprisingly quick feet (I’ve watched him switch on to bigs and wings with some success). In the mock offseason I mentioned previously, Peyton (for Utah) offered 3/51.
   4834. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 29, 2019 at 05:26 PM (#5857075)
also without getting into OTP territory, can't fault anyone, let alone a non-American, for leaving this ######## country when given the opportunity.
   4835. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 05:31 PM (#5857080)
Edit: extremely mild political take redacted
   4836. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 29, 2019 at 06:04 PM (#5857093)
fwiw Der-k, you're definitely right. No need to go into it more but seems like Niko basically considers Spain a second home.
   4837. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:07 PM (#5857108)
KC Johnson:
There’s strong belief within league circles the Bulls and Darren Collison were headed for a marriage had Collison not surprisingly retired Friday night at age 31.


Sounds like Rose likely to DET. Klay full 5 max to stay. Kyrie to Nets likely. Russell either S&T or UFA.

easy to target on defense

Numbers never agreed with this take.

...

Kemba to BOS seems like they want to recreate the IT years. I can see that working, they're less unlikeable with him than Kyrie, not sure how good they'll be.
   4838. Booey Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:09 PM (#5857109)
Jazz have a meeting scheduled with Bobby Portis. If they can't get Niko, they may as well get the guy that broke his face, right? Maybe some of what Dennis Lindsey and Justin Zanik see in Mirotic rubbed off on Portis's fist...

Seriously though, I'd be pretty bummed if the Jazz let Favors walk for either of those guys (or Thad Young, another guy they're rumored to be interested in). Faves is clearly better than all of them, IMO. I think all those guys would be great in Crowder's former role for 10-12 mil per, but they wouldn't accept that and the Jazz don't have it anyway without waiving or trading an even better player.

I think they should just keep D-Faves and see if the shooting improvement from Rubio to Conley is already enough to solve their spacing issues. If not, they can see what they can get for Favors at the trade deadline.
   4839. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:14 PM (#5857110)
Numbers never agreed with this take.

No, but coaches- opposing and his own- sure seem to in the playoffs.

Edit: Also, regular season DRPM:
32nd among PF this year
22nd among PF last year
19th among PF the year before

So at least some numbers seem to agree.
   4840. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:25 PM (#5857114)
I am happy for Walker that he’s going to get to show off on a better team; I just wish it weren’t the Celtics.
   4841. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5857117)
Wait a minute, DBPM dislikes Mirotic too. Where is the opposite idea coming from?
   4842. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: June 29, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5857119)
Looks like my Butler/Lakers hunch was wrong, as he will be meeting with Houston and Miami. The Lakers appear ready to go for Russell and whatever else they can get if they miss on Leonard, based on what is out there.

Walker makes sense in Boston, but he is a little older than Irving and not quite as good, so they will obviously need Hayward to come back and Tatum to improve.
   4843. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:11 PM (#5857128)
also without getting into OTP territory, can't fault anyone, let alone a non-American, for leaving this ######## country when given the opportunity.
isn't darren collison from los angeles?
   4844. PJ Martinez Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:14 PM (#5857130)
4843: Cant tell if I'm missing a joke in there somewhere, but he's talking about Mirotic.

And not sure how reliable Broussard is, but FWIW:
Hearing Raptors chances of keeping Kawhi are fading. A return to SoCal - either team - getting more and more likely.
Also: why does Jimmy Butler (per multiple reports) want to go to the Heat so much? Does he just really like the Miami lifestyle? Those Vice uniforms? I mean, I get it, but they won 39 games last year, and it doesn't sound like anyone would be joining him (and they'd have to send stuff out to make room, too).
   4845. spivey Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:17 PM (#5857133)
Kemba is closer to Kyrie than IT3.

The Butler chatter seems like he won’t be staying in Philadelphia. That hurts them if it ends up being the case. The East could be way less top heavy this year.
   4846. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:23 PM (#5857135)
Jmurph, you’re counting starters and backups (this includes defensive specialists) - right? I see him as consistently a mild plus on D by the metrics I check out.

Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?
   4847. PJ Martinez Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5857136)
Yeah, there's a chance that Toronto, Philly, and Boston all get worse. And Milwaukee may lose depth. Brooklyn should be better, though. And I'm curious to see what Indiana does. I wonder if Atlanta will be able to make a run at the playoffs.
   4848. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 08:36 PM (#5857139)
Shams: “Sources: The NBA has set salary cap for 2019-20 season, effective for July free agency: $109,140,000, with tax line of $132,627,000.”

That’s a hair under expectations, iirc, which slightly hurts teams trying to eek out space for max guys or tax avoidance.

Edit:apparently, it was expected to be 109, so this is a hair higher. I had 109.5 in my sheet for some reason.
   4849. JJ1986 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:01 PM (#5857144)
Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?
They've met Jimmy Butler.
   4850. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:03 PM (#5857145)
Marks (though I could cite my choice of many):
“Non-tax ML- $9.258M Tax ML: $5.71M Room ML: $4.76M Bi-annual: $3.62M Early-bird: $9.6M”

   4851. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:03 PM (#5857146)
JJ, that is, of course, a very reasonable explanation.
   4852. JJ1986 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:14 PM (#5857149)
If Butler leaves and Redick signs for about what he made last year, Philly can have pretty decent space. Enough to get someone like Al Horford or D'Angelo Russell or maybe even Nerlens Noel.

Edit: Assuming they keep Harris.
   4853. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:19 PM (#5857151)
Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?

They've met Jimmy Butler.

Story checks out.
   4854. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:20 PM (#5857152)
Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?

Do we know this to be the case? My suspicion is this is all about Butler getting the 5th year.
   4855. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:21 PM (#5857153)
maybe even Nerlens Noel.

Would they be able to get him for just the 4 year max? I'd expect some kind of Joe Smith-ian under the table add-ons.
   4856. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:26 PM (#5857154)
I'm extremely curious/nervous who the mystery bidder is for Horford. Supposedly no Pelicans or Mavs, which were both the early talk.
   4857. JJ1986 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:26 PM (#5857155)
I'm extremely curious/nervous who the mystery bidder is for Horford. Supposedly no Pelicans or Mavs, which were both the early talk.
I'll bet it's Phoenix.
   4858. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5857160)
The Butler chatter seems like he won’t be staying in Philadelphia. That hurts them if it ends up being the case. The East could be way less top heavy this year.
nah.

MIA and HOU do this every year; they leak a bunch of rumors about how they're going to sign this or that top free agent, despite not having any money; and then they don't.
Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?
i think butler just has a better agent.

either that, or noone wants to talk with harris while they still have a chance to get someone who's better than him.





   4859. PJ Martinez Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:55 PM (#5857161)
The Clippers are exploring the feasibility of signing both Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler in free agency, @NYTSports has learned
Way back before the season started, this, as I recall, was the expected outcome.
   4860. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 29, 2019 at 09:56 PM (#5857162)
Bulter + Kawhi seems like a pretty lousy fit, honestly.
   4861. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:03 PM (#5857164)
In that they have many duplicative skills, and require the ball in their hands to be great on offence. Obviously, the Clips plus both of them would be wondrous, but it would still be a suboptimal allocation of resources, in a world where for instance Klay Thompson exists.
   4862. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5857165)
Klay Thompson exists, sure, but there's only one of him and he's never leaving Golden State.

What other marquee free agent might the Clippers entice to sign alongside Kawhi?

We don't really know at this point, but if the options are Kawhi/Butler or Just Kawhi, I'd probably opt for the former and hope for the best, too. The title's up for grabs right now, and this team won 48 games in the West last year--sign the best dudes you can and go for it!
   4863. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:09 PM (#5857166)
Yeah, that's of course true. Played aren't fungible, and, given what is out there, Kawhi + Butler would make LAC the presumptive favourite.
   4864. PJ Martinez Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:19 PM (#5857167)
All of the above was also true of LeBron and Wade.*

Heck, if Pippen had gone to some other team besides Chicago, played there several years, then signed with the Bulls as a free agent, I suspect people would/could have said the same thing about him joining Jordan, no?

Note: I'm not saying Kawhi/Butler would be as good as James/Wade, let alone Pippen/Jordan. But the question of duplicating skills seems applicable in all three cases.

* Edit: I realize LeBron is a great passer, and Kawhi is not. Leonard/Butler has perhaps the least creating-for-others of these pairs, and so might suffer the most in terms of diminishing returns. But history suggests those concerns tend to be overblown.
   4865. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:25 PM (#5857168)
Jazz have a meeting scheduled with Bobby Portis. If they can't get Niko, they may as well get the guy that broke his face, right? Maybe some of what Dennis Lindsey and Justin Zanik see in Mirotic rubbed off on Portis's fist...

Seriously though, I'd be pretty bummed if the Jazz let Favors walk for either of those guys (or Thad Young, another guy they're rumored to be interested in). Faves is clearly better than all of them, IMO. I think all those guys would be great in Crowder's former role for 10-12 mil per, but they wouldn't accept that and the Jazz don't have it anyway without waiving or trading an even better player.

I think they should just keep D-Faves and see if the shooting improvement from Rubio to Conley is already enough to solve their spacing issues. If not, they can see what they can get for Favors at the trade deadline.


Yeah, unless Portis is coming on the room MLE or they have a wing worth giving up Favors for, I have no interest in Portis.

Supposedly they are very interested in Bogdanovic though, and as much as I love Favors I think I'd do that. He's good enough defensively and a Conley-Donovan-Ingles-Bogdanovic-Gobert lineup would be pretty pretty pretty good.

   4866. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:34 PM (#5857169)
5857154)
I'm extremely curious/nervous who the mystery bidder is for Horford. Supposedly no Pelicans or Mavs, which were both the early talk.


this level of analysis is obviously garden level but Al followed Jrue and Zion on Twitter in the last 24 hours.
   4867. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:45 PM (#5857171)
this level of analysis is obviously garden level but Al followed Jrue and Zion on Twitter in the last 24 hours.

I saw that report, but Stein says they're not in the bidding. Could be smoke of course, who knows.
   4868. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5857173)
4854 - we don’t!

From a Haverdtroj article on Klay: “Since 2005, no player has suffered an ACL tear in the NBA and later made an All-Star Game.”
I know we/I underrate the impact of ACL tears, long term, but this still surprised me.
   4869. jmurph Posted: June 29, 2019 at 10:58 PM (#5857174)
Oof, that’s depressing der-k. I’ve caught myself just totally taking for granted he and Durant will be back to normal. It will be interesting.
   4870. DCA Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:05 PM (#5857175)
Why do the Sixers supposedly like Harris more than Butler?

They gave up more future value for Harris. If he signs elsewhere the optics are worse to have given up 4 picks (2 firsts) with nothing to show than 1 second rounder.
   4871. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:22 PM (#5857176)
that acl stat is legitimately surprising but Kristaps and Klay will be illuminating test cases. they're the only acl guys that were at all star level that I can think of since DRose.
   4872. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:24 PM (#5857177)
[4868] The track record for Achilles tears is even worse, right?

Someone is going to de facto pay 55M a year for three years of someone coming off an Achilles tear. Yikes.
   4873. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:32 PM (#5857178)
Ha ha. I forgot to fix “Haberstroh”.

Achilles: I thought so but I recently read ... “maybe not?” (Think this was Pelton)
   4874. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:33 PM (#5857179)
oh, i just thought of a massively infuriating possibility....


what if LAC:
renounces everyone except beverley
signs butler outright
trades gallinari/shamet/MIA #1 to TOR for kawhi
signs KCP with their remaining cap room
signs nerlens noel with their cap exception
signs patrick beverley with their bird rights


G: beverley/SGA/louwill
W: kawhi/butler/KCP/mcgruder
F: harrell/noel/el kabengele
   4875. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:51 PM (#5857182)
Yeah, Pelton wrote an article looking at ACL and achilles tears with ACL tears coming out as having a greater impact on player performance. IIRC, the decline on achilles tears was -10%.
   4876. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 29, 2019 at 11:59 PM (#5857183)
Rumor: Vucevic to stay in ORL for 4/100
   4877. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 30, 2019 at 12:15 AM (#5857188)
Wasn't the last rumor 4/90? Come on, randomly adopted team, get it together.
   4878. PJ Martinez Posted: June 30, 2019 at 07:37 AM (#5857209)
Quick refresher/round-up from Marc Stein:
It's June 30! Deals coming later today on Day 1 of free agency:

*Kyrie Irving & Nets (4/$141M)

*Kemba Walker to Celtics (4/$141M)

*Klay Thompson & Warriors (5/$190M)

*Kristaps Porzingis & Mavs (5/$158M)

*Nikola Vucevic & Magic (4/$100M)

*Harrison Barnes & Kings (4/$88M)
It's just now occurred to me that Brooklyn/Boston games should be pretty fun next season.
   4879. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: June 30, 2019 at 07:50 AM (#5857210)
I am pretty excited for the silly season to kick off.
   4880. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2019 at 08:20 AM (#5857212)
Still nothing definitive on Horford- I've seen it suggested he's the fallback plan for a lot of teams, bu that doesn't match the early, specific report of a 4 year big money offer.
   4881. Booey Posted: June 30, 2019 at 08:42 AM (#5857213)
I actually think Horford would be a good fit for the Jazz (on a short deal!). He'd start at the PF and serve as a floor spacing stretch 4 next to Rudy, then move to C when Gobert sits and be our rim protector. Basically combine the roles Favors and Crowder were playing last year (but actually shoot 3's well enough to be successful at it, unlike Jae).
   4882. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: June 30, 2019 at 09:08 AM (#5857214)
Horford's still a very useful player--and has long been one of my personal favorite players--but at this point in his career he's no longer a *great* player, and he's hurt a lot, and I think whichever team gives him a four year, near-max contract is going to profoundly regret it two years in, unless he helps them win a title.

That's always the ##### with veteran free agents: the thought of having the guy on your team NOW is salivating, but you have to sign him for four years...
   4883. PJ Martinez Posted: June 30, 2019 at 09:17 AM (#5857215)
4-years and 113 or so, which is what has been bandied about re: Horford, is not really a near-max for a player with his service time.

Edit: also, while "hurt a lot" does roughly track with my experience of his time as a Celtic, it's worth noting that over the last five seasons he's played 76, 82, 68, 72, and 68 games, which is not *terrible* -- and he has pretty consistently been at his best in the playoffs.
   4884. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5857222)
rumor!: DAL to offer Dwight Powell a 3/33 extension that he is likely to sign
   4885. JJ1986 Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5857226)
I wonder if that means they'll let Maxi Kleber go.
   4886. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5857227)
i think the new rumor is butler to MIA for josh richardson and things; sixers keep harris and put an offer sheet on brogdon.

simmons (23) / brogdon (27) / richardson (26) / harris (27) / embiid (25)

benchzhairethybulleboldenbobanyadayadayada 


that would not be an awful consolation.
   4887. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5857229)
also, does anyone else get the feeling that with durant and kawhi talking about playing together, that they could be headed to PHI?
   4888. Hot Wheeling American Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5857231)
No
   4889. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5857232)
Everyone else: no.
   4890. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5857233)
I assume 11 million per year for a backup center takes Dallas out of the Horford bidding, but they’re kind of dumb so who knows.
   4891. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:09 PM (#5857246)
Pelicans sign Nicolo Melli to a two year deal - he’s a 28 year old stretch big who has had NBA interest in the past. That said, I’ve not been impressed in my limited viewings, low usage and unexceptional athlete. Good passer.
   4892. PJ Martinez Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5857248)
Despite the Kings' significant interest in Al Horford and plans to make a massive offer, a source tells @TheAthletic that they are under the impression he's likely heading elsewhere.
   4893. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5857251)
Not sure I'm capable of the mental gymnastics it's going to require to talk myself into being happy the Pistons signed Derrick Rose.
   4894. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5857253)
He had a decent year last season*, can play either guard spot, and it’s a kind of tight market for guards (not made better by the Collison retirement)?

* edit: he scored 2 points every three minutes with solid shooting numbers and had a solid ATR. He was a flat out good offensive player.
   4895. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5857256)
(I really don’t like Derrick Rose)
   4896. PJ Martinez Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:35 PM (#5857258)
4894: I assumed 4893 was more a reference to this, but maybe I'm wrong.
   4897. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:49 PM (#5857264)
I can tell you that 4895 is a response to that link!
(but fair point)
   4898. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5857266)
rumor from Woj: Jonas V 3/45 with MEM
   4899. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5857267)
Flippy
   4900. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2019 at 01:56 PM (#5857268)
Floppy
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