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Thursday, August 01, 2019

OT Soccer Thread - A New Season is Upon Baldrick

Everyone enjoy the break that was about 25 minutes long?  Anyway;

August 2 - Championship begins (Luton-Middlesbrough), Eridivise begins (Zwolle-Willem II)
August 3 - Scottish Premiership, League One, League Two begin
August 4 - Community Shield (Manchester City-Liverpool)
August 6 - Carabao Cup (Portsmouth-Birmingham City), Third round qualifying Champions League first legs
August 9 - EPL begins (Liverpool-Norwich City), Ligue Une begins (Monaco-Lyon)
August 16 - Bundesliga begins (Bayern-Hertha), La Liga begins (Athletic Bilbao-Barcelona)
August 29 - Champions League group stage draw
September 5 - All manner of World Cup and Euro qualifying international break begins

BTF FANTASY SOCCER COME ONE COME ALL (the link for the post now takes you to the signup page).

League name:  BTF Soccer

Code: my8hl1

Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 01, 2019 at 06:46 PM | 911 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

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   401. jmurph Posted: August 12, 2019 at 11:09 AM (#5870523)
I'm not sure Chelsea are lacking in top end talent. You might be right, but I'd say that their attacking talent is young and unproved.

Yep, that's what I meant, you put it much more precisely than I did. So I shouldn't have said talent- they clearly have a lot of young talent- but I'll say I think they're lacking in currently in their prime, top end players, in comparison to their fellow top 6ish teams.
   402. Mefisto Posted: August 12, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5870542)
That's fair.
   403. Mefisto Posted: August 12, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5870572)
Since I mentioned seeing the chart for McTominay, here's the one for Mason Mount. Not very good, but he's only 20.
   404. I am going to be Frank Posted: August 12, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5870579)
Rudiger and Kante starting immensely improves Chelsea's defense. Dave is definitely slow and Pedro can disappear from the right defensively at times. Mount had some brief moments and Abraham had that shot off the post early. I never rated Pedro, mainly because he was so one-footed. He's much better with his off foot now, but he's old and never a prolific goal-scorer. The attacking talent was always going to be a problem with Hazard gone and them on the never-ending quest to finding a striker to replace Costa. Pulisic is definitely going to need to take some time getting used to the physicalness of the PL, but he was fine in his short stint but hard to tell in 30 minutes how successful he's going to be.

McTominay is definitely just a 'he's there' type of player. However, he's mobile and energetic, which is a lot better than Matic, who is much better with the ball but a statue otherwise. Pogba, Martial and Rashford's turnovers were definitely worrisome. Ever since his return to United, Pogba hasn't looked good as a deeper midfielder. Defensively he loses concentration and the losing the ball bit is really problematic. I guess a double pivot of McTominay and Matic or Fred might be better for Pogba with Perreira dropping to somewhere like Newcastle (Steve Bruce does love his former United players). All goes back to Mefisto's point about United's inability to sign proper midfielders.
   405. Mefisto Posted: August 12, 2019 at 04:31 PM (#5870667)
So Baldrick: Kate Markgraf, yea or nay?
   406. I am going to be Frank Posted: August 12, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5870687)
So depending on who you believe is Neymar is now heading back to Barcelona. Either for Coutinho plus money, or alternatively PSG is holding out for Dembele. There is also a report that Bayern is interested in getting Coutinho on loan.

Mangala off to Valencia.

Cavani is apparently whatever Miami's MLS team's first marquee signing.
   407. Pirate Joe Posted: August 12, 2019 at 08:21 PM (#5870737)
then Aguero was allowed to retake a terribly taken penalty because it was judged the goalie came off his line early (he did, of course, like they always do, but I don't think we should start caring about this now all of a sudden).



I don't think that's what they called. I think they called it back because the defender who came in and cleared the ball after the missed shot took a couple steps into the box before the kick was taken.

   408. Mefisto Posted: August 12, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5870739)
I don't think that's what they called. I think they called it back because the defender who came in and cleared the ball after the missed shot took a couple steps into the box before the kick was taken.


That was my understanding too, but the announcers weren't clear about it.
   409. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 13, 2019 at 01:32 AM (#5870837)
Was I the only one that didn't know Wolves and Torino would be matched up in the Europa playoff round? One of them won't make the group stage. Is it just a random draw? Because considering the average quality of team in the Europa playoff round, it's criminal to have these two teams face off against each other. They would probably be two of the top 10 teams in the Europa group stage: (Arsenal, United, Sevilla, Getafe, Espanyol, Lazio, Roma, Ajax, Frankfurt, Monchengladbach, Wolfsburg, Sporting, PSV--with the worst few of those teams probably worse than Wolves, and maybe on the level of Torino).

Oh well, should at least be a real test for Wolves.

And Frankfurt will likely face Strasbourg, but even though they are from France they are rather weak. Espanyol, PSV and especially Ajax (if they lose to PAOK) face even weaker teams, and should all advance fairly easily.
   410. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 13, 2019 at 05:49 AM (#5870850)
Was I the only one that didn't know Wolves and Torino would be matched up in the Europa playoff round? One of them won't make the group stage. Is it just a random draw?

I think it is mostly random draw, but not entirely. AFAIK, they still split the qualifying into 2 separate paths. Basically the losers from the Champions path of the CL qualifying go into their own bracket. Since the Champions who have to play in that qualifying round tend to come from leagues that are... not good. And the teams that lose tend to be really... not good, it basically results in sequestering off a bunch of really... not good teams. Which makes it more likely that the good teams from much better leagues have to face off against each other. But it still takes quite a bit of the ol' luck of the draw, for it to actually happen.
   411. jmurph Posted: August 13, 2019 at 09:24 AM (#5870878)
I don't think that's what they called. I think they called it back because the defender who came in and cleared the ball after the missed shot took a couple steps into the box before the kick was taken.

Hmmmm I don't think so, they kept replaying the goalie's feet and then replayed the goalie's feet again after the second take. Googling... and you're correct! So the tv guys were just dummies I guess.

That does make me feel slightly better, that's a legit call. The article I read also said VAR won't be used for the goalie moving off the line thing in the Premier League, that will be left to the on field official. In terms of justice, Aguero took a bad penalty and didn't deserve a second one, but I'm fully aware of the correlation between deserve and something to do with it.
   412. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 13, 2019 at 09:55 AM (#5870891)
So the tv guys were just dummies I guess.


One of the biggest issues with VAR is that it’s not always clear what is being reviewed. They talked about it on the Football Weekly podcast. She was at a game and they showed a note on the video screen that said “VAR - Red Card” but no one knew what the incident was.

Baseball has a similar issue with replay but the nature of baseball makes it obvious 99% of the time what is being reviewed. Soccer isn’t so linear and it’s not always clear. There needs to be a way to keep fans in the loop.
   413. spivey Posted: August 13, 2019 at 09:59 AM (#5870895)
A lot of still open ties in CL qualifying today.

Ajax needs a win or a 3-3 draw at home to advance, and would be massively disappointing if they cannot do that. My understanding is the Van de Beek sale has been delayed until Ajax are able to get through to the group stages.

Basel have to overturn a result on the road, and Zagreb need to get a result on the road as well. Celtic, Porto, Copenhagen, and Olympiakos are sitting prettier, but it's not done yet. Dynamo Kiev and Club Brugge are playing as well.
   414. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 13, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5870913)
One of the biggest issues with VAR is that it’s not always clear what is being reviewed. They talked about it on the Football Weekly podcast. She was at a game and they showed a note on the video screen that said “VAR - Red Card” but no one knew what the incident was.

Baseball has a similar issue with replay but the nature of baseball makes it obvious 99% of the time what is being reviewed. Soccer isn’t so linear and it’s not always clear. There needs to be a way to keep fans in the loop.

Especially for Red Cards, where it can be for something that is happening away from the ball, where nobody is looking at all...
   415. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 13, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5870919)
In the seriously, really? Damn, really?? Side of things???

Still without a club since being released by Swansea City, Wilfried Bony is keeping himself in shape by training with the League Two side Newport County.
   416. I am going to be Frank Posted: August 13, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5870920)
The NBC broadcast initially was confused about what was overturned but they clarified it and said that the defender who infringed in the box was the one who cleared it. So I guess if it was someone else who cleared it and did not infringe they would not have retaken it.
   417. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 13, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5870921)
Ajax needs a win or a 3-3 draw at home to advance,
Ajax got the 2-2 road draw at PAOK in the first leg, so advance with 0-0 or 1-1. PAOK advances at 3-3.
   418. spivey Posted: August 13, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5870933)
Thanks for correcting AuntBea. I obviously didn't think through that clearly.
   419. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 13, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5871030)
Yikes Porto is in serious danger of falling into Europa.
   420. spivey Posted: August 13, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5871037)
Porto needs to pull 2 goals back now. That's embarrassing stuff really.
   421. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 13, 2019 at 03:40 PM (#5871040)
3 now, due to away goals. They need a miracle. "League Path" losers in the CL today drop straight into the Europa group stage. Could see a few good (or at least decent) teams go that way: Porto, Kyiv, maybe Basel and Olympiacos.
   422. spivey Posted: August 13, 2019 at 03:46 PM (#5871044)
Ajax hasn't made it easy for themselves today, though they'd advance as things stand now. They still have some really good star power, it'd be a shame to see them knocked out.
   423. jmurph Posted: August 13, 2019 at 04:51 PM (#5871081)
Celtic appears to have just been eliminated on a goal in the 7th minute of stoppage time?
   424. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 13, 2019 at 04:57 PM (#5871082)
No. They were already behind on away goals.
   425. jmurph Posted: August 13, 2019 at 04:58 PM (#5871083)
Ahh, thanks, I didn't check that.
   426. frannyzoo Posted: August 13, 2019 at 08:08 PM (#5871126)
Porto not only out of CL but about 90% sure to have already given the league away in Week One, after losing to newly promoted, by court order, Gil Vicente, because Benfica won't lose all year. A tough four days.
   427. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 14, 2019 at 03:37 PM (#5871390)
HOW DO YOU DO????

IT'S GIROUD!
   428. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 14, 2019 at 03:46 PM (#5871398)
Pulisic has looked good. A nice pass for the goal, a nice finish on a goal ruled out for off-sides and generally involved. I'm pleased with what I'm seeing from him so far.
   429. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 14, 2019 at 04:46 PM (#5871424)
With VAR shouldn’t defenders no longer be putting their arms up to plead for an offside call? It’s always been a bit stupid, you are slowing yourself down doing it, but now even if it’s missed real time it’s going to get picked up on review so just keep playing.
   430. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 14, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5871428)
Armenia's Ararat with the upset over Saburtalo, so now Dudelange can make it back to the group stages having faced North Macedonia's Shkëndija (a team on their level), Estonia's Nõmme Kalju (a team worse than them) and Ararat (a team even worse).

The weakest Europa teams to make the playoff round will probably be Linfield (who should be easy pickings for Qarabag), Ararat (who face Dudelange), the winner of Helsinki/Riga (who should be easy pickings for Copenhagen), and then Dudelange themselves. That's a nice draw for Dudelange.
   431. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:09 PM (#5871433)
Just gonna say, as soon as you make the "I didn't do it face ... you did it."
   432. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:36 PM (#5871437)
The announcers were pretty complimentary toward Adrian but I’m not sold on his performance. He made some good saves but gave away a needless penalty and besides the PK Chelsea had the ball in the back of the net three times. Two of them were correctly ruled out for being offside but the shots did go in and dismissing that when evaluating Adrian’s overall performance seems like a mistake.
   433. KronicFatigue Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:40 PM (#5871439)
1) a glorified friendly in the middle of the EPL week shouldn't have extra time.

2) penalty kicks to end a game should be a couple of yards back from the normal spot. Make it more of a challenge. "don't miss, and hope the keeper doesn't guess right" shouldn't be all it takes.
   434. KronicFatigue Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5871440)
With VAR shouldn’t defenders no longer be putting their arms up to plead for an offside call? It’s always been a bit stupid, you are slowing yourself down doing it, but now even if it’s missed real time it’s going to get picked up on review so just keep playing.


That's an excellent point. I've always hated the hands in the air. In what other sport does a player stop trying their hardest in order to get the call? NBA flopping I suppose.
   435. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5871442)
I have no problem with penalty kicks deciding a game, so long as it's a more or less meaningless game like this. Anything else. Blech.

If they have to have a way to decide games that doesn't involve playing soccer, there must be a million more interesting ways to do it.
   436. KronicFatigue Posted: August 14, 2019 at 05:52 PM (#5871446)
Sudden death corner kicks maybe with a limitation of players on the field. Defense needs to clear it out of the penalty box for the play to end.
   437. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 15, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5871616)
Here's the thing. Penalty shootouts are going nowhere. Because literally nobody outside of the US thinks it's a problem. So much so, that they are supposedly even discussing introducing penalty shootouts to the 2022 WC, in order to decide group games that end in a draw.

You can whine, and moan about it all you want, and try to come up with whatever fantastical alternatives you like. But understand that it is never going to happen, and all you are doing is masturbating to your own fantasies.
   438. spivey Posted: August 15, 2019 at 11:57 AM (#5871662)
I do think penalties would be far more entertaining if they did the "You have 5 seconds to score starting from the 35/40 yard line" thing.
   439. jmurph Posted: August 15, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5871664)
Like any sane person I don't love them, but I admit they're at least tense and dramatic in a cup final or a knockout round. They would be a bummer in a group stage game, for sure.
   440. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 15, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5871668)
I do think penalties would be far more entertaining if they did the "You have 5 seconds to score starting from the 35/40 yard line" thing.


This is correct. A lot of Europeans who bother to think about it agree, as well.
   441. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 15, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5871676)
Here's the thing. Penalty shootouts are going nowhere. Because literally nobody outside of the US thinks it's a problem. So much so, that they are supposedly even discussing introducing penalty shootouts to the 2022 WC, in order to decide group games that end in a draw.

You can whine, and moan about it all you want, and try to come up with whatever fantastical alternatives you like. But understand that it is never going to happen, and all you are doing is masturbating to your own fantasies.


Let's analyze WHY nobody outside of the US thinks it's a problem instead of insulting everybody. Here's what I think:

Soccer has limited substitutions and people running continually, therefore at the end of the game, everyone is exhausted so the game can't continue indefinitely. This doesn't apply to any US sports - football is similar in that people can't keep bashing into each other indefinitely, but NFL games won't just go on forever in overtime. Someone will kick a field goal pretty soon.

In soccer, the game might go on forever because it's already a low-scoring game and they may be too tired to score a goal. Or they will only score a goal because the defenders are too tired to move. This would also turn the game into a farce. Something has to give. The shootout is a lot better than a coin flip.
   442. Manny Coon Posted: August 15, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5871679)
What is the argument for traditional penalties over 90's MLS style penalties?
   443. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 15, 2019 at 02:59 PM (#5871718)
Exactly. Everyone knows a game can't go on forever. That does not explain why "everyone outside the US" loves penalties, when there are must be many better ways of breaking the deadlock, including the 90's MLS style (or hockey-style) penalties.

Other suggestions commonly floated: taking off a man from each side every five minutes of extra time (starting from the start of extra time, or just 5 minutes in). Having penalties prior to extra time, with the loser of the shootout starting extra time half a goal behind. There must be other ideas out there as well.

   444. jmurph Posted: August 15, 2019 at 03:08 PM (#5871720)
I think "literally nobody outside of the US thinks it's a problem" is also just obviously not true. 4 seconds of googling finds multiple opinion pieces in the Guardian about not liking them.

I suppose they could have all been ghostwritten by Americans, though.
   445. aberg Posted: August 15, 2019 at 03:43 PM (#5871729)
Other suggestions commonly floated: taking off a man from each side every five minutes of extra time (starting from the start of extra time, or just 5 minutes in). Having penalties prior to extra time, with the loser of the shootout starting extra time half a goal behind. There must be other ideas out there as well.


Start extra time with a runner on third base.
   446. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 15, 2019 at 04:07 PM (#5871735)
Rotate the goals to be tall instead of wide.
   447. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 15, 2019 at 04:24 PM (#5871737)
Start extra time with a runner on third base.


I would say the current shootout rule is a lot like each baseball team starting 5 consecutive half innings with a man on third and no outs. If they can get at least one run in a half inning, it's like a penalty score. No runs, and no penalty score.

Yes, the current penalty rules in soccer really are that gimmicky. At least they are faster.
   448. jmurph Posted: August 16, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5871913)
This is crazy:
Liverpool have written to Uefa seeking an explanation as to how a supporter managed to evade security and injure the goalkeeper Adrián during their Uefa Super Cup final celebrations in Istanbul on Wednesday.

The club’s new Spanish keeper is a doubt for tomorrow’s Premier League game at Southampton after suffering a swollen ankle when a pitch invader careered into him following his decisive penalty save from Tammy Abraham at Besiktas Park. The supporter also struck Joe Gomez but while the Liverpool defender is fit to play at St Mary’s a late decision will be required on Adrian’s fitness.
   449. spivey Posted: August 16, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5871939)
Big game tomorrow for Tottenham. I think we'll probably see about 20 minutes of Lo Celso. I hope we don't line up in a diamond. And please start Eriksen, we don't have enough creativity without Lo Celso, Alli, or Son. A result would be a great statement of intent! Getting blown off the field would be discouraging, but it happens.
   450. jmurph Posted: August 16, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5872006)
Coutinho to Bayern, apparently.
   451. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5872126)
Lot of teams picked for the top half of the league looked a bit poor this morning, but still mostly got results: Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, West Ham.

According to 538 and understat, the only winning team to do significantly better than their opponents by xG (most were worse) was Norwich, and West Ham got crushed but still managed a draw. Usually the more fancied teams will at least show up with an advantage in non-shot xG, but not today.
   452. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5872131)
It's a good thing Lamela gets to run about on a pitch, he'd likely get arrested with what he does if he were off it ...
   453. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 17, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5872132)
What’s that about Lamela?
   454. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5872134)
   455. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 01:17 PM (#5872135)
Erik is totally a "use a pen Sideshow Bob" kind of guy ...
   456. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5872141)
18 to 1 attempts for City. This is not a close game except by the scoreline.

edit: 18-2. And a tie game. There's no way this game should be a draw right now.
   457. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 01:52 PM (#5872144)
City only gave up 2 goals at home one time last year, the 2-3 loss to Palace.
   458. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:06 PM (#5872147)
Despite the stats I feel like Spurs have done alright. City have had chances but I haven’t felt like Spurs have been scrambling too often.
   459. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5872150)
28-3 right now.

10 minutes to go.

2-2 scoreline.
   460. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:21 PM (#5872151)
N'dombele is going to be a ####### beast this season.

He just snuffed two City drives in a row without breaking a sweat.
   461. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:24 PM (#5872154)
I think that should be called back. That's just like the Wolves play.
   462. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5872155)
That’s the right call but the rule is crap.
   463. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5872156)
As a Spurs fan...this may be the most unjust point in history.
   464. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:28 PM (#5872157)
I would have been happy not to be completely destroyed.

I mean, I guess Spurs kind of did get destroyed other than the final scoreline.
   465. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:30 PM (#5872158)
An apology for the fruity language you might have heard or seen there ...
   466. jmurph Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:31 PM (#5872159)
VAR so far, to me, is exactly as bad as the replay rollout has been in baseball. It's essentially created new rules. It's... who was calling for this, again?
...
Spurs are so good getting defensive deflections on shots from the edge of the box. You really have to earn goals. Fun game. I mean I want to break things, but it was a fun game.
   467. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:33 PM (#5872160)
VAR so far, to me, is exactly as bad as the replay rollout has been in baseball. It's essentially created new rules. It's... who was calling for this, again?

But the 'problem' here isn't with VAR, it's with the rule change. You can't influence a goal with your hand this season, accidental or not.

(For what it's worth, I hate that rule change.)
   468. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:34 PM (#5872161)
Even though last week he got the goal, I thought NDombele was much better this week. He really did a job defensively.
   469. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5872162)
So, FM fans ... Moura has to be a like a 8/18 header right? He's tiny, but he's lethal when he can get to it ...
   470. jmurph Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:37 PM (#5872163)
But the 'problem' here isn't with VAR, it's with the rule change. You can't influence a goal with your hand this season, accidental or not.

It was overturned by VAR, so I think it's fair to blame both!

   471. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:39 PM (#5872165)
Despite the stats I feel like Spurs have done alright. City have had chances but I haven’t felt like Spurs have been scrambling too often.
No.

538 xG: 3.5 - 0.2
understat 3.23 - 0.11
Caley: 3.3 - 0.2

edit: can't even argue scoreline effects. City was less dominant after the score was tied 2-2, since you can't count the Jesus goal that was called back.
   472. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: August 17, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5872166)
(For what it's worth, I hate that rule change.)


Ding.

VAR got it "right", the rule just isn't what I would make it.
   473. Mefisto Posted: August 17, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5872175)
Spurs got crushed but they walked away with a point. Watch, somehow this game will cost City the title.
   474. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 04:45 PM (#5872194)
I'm not sure I'm onboard with the new handball rule that resulted in no goal today, but it was definitely correctly applied. The assist was made by a player's arm, and as soon as it was played it became a good scoring chance. Here there would not have been a goal if the ball hadn't hit the arm.

Anywhere else on the field, if that's seen by the ref and it gains an advantage for the attacking team, it's probably given as a foul.

What surprises me is how many people have consistently called for any foul in the box by the defense to be a penalty, no matter how unintentional, no matter to what extent intentionally drawn by the offense, and no matter how miniscule the scoring chance was absent the foul. Some of those same people are saying this goal should have counted. That seems inconsistent to me.


   475. Baldrick Posted: August 17, 2019 at 05:28 PM (#5872198)
Soccer just isn't a game that's well-suited to the kind of precision that VAR allows, except in some limited areas (like offside calls). If implemented with an eye toward what it could usefully accomplish, VAR could be a nice addition. As actually implemented, it is truly terrible. That they are now attempting to tweak the rulebook to make it more VAR-enforceable compounds the problem, rather than fixing it.
   476. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 05:39 PM (#5872201)
While that's true, this wasn't a call that required precision. The ball smacked squarely against the arm and made a 45 degree change of direction, directly to the player who was open in the box for a goal scoring opportunity.

If that had been seen by the ref in real time even before this rule it would likely have been no goal. Not infrequently (before VAR) you would see an offensive player control the ball inadvertently with a hand/arm that is pumping normally with his stride, and if seen by the ref it was almost always called a foul. This really isn't any different except that goals are automatically reviewed.
   477. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 05:58 PM (#5872204)
People are calling it a "soft" handball, in the sense that it had little effect on the play. That's not correct. It may have been inadvertent, and the arm may not have been in an unnatural position, but the contact on the arm not only made the play--it was the play.
   478. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 07:36 PM (#5872215)
People are now also mis-stating the rule, as "any touch on the hand/arm, anytime in the buildup, no matter how inadvertent and incidental, will disallow a goal." That's not correct. The rule is below. Obviously there will be some judgment/interpretation around "creates a goal-scoring opportunity", but it doesn't extend as far as what people are saying. It clearly extends to the goal disallowed today though.


The ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
A player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
The ball touches a player’s hand/arm which has made their body unnaturally bigger
The ball touches a player’s hand/arm when it is above their shoulder (unless the player has deliberately played the ball which then touches their hand/arm)



The following will not usually be a free kick, unless they are one of the above situations:

The ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player who is close/near
The ball touches a player’s hand/arm which is close to their body and has not made their body unnaturally bigger
If a player is falling and the ball touches their hand/arm when it is between their body and the ground to support the body (but not extended to make the body bigger)
If the goalkeeper attempts to ‘clear’ (release into play) a throw-in or deliberate kick from a team-mate but the ‘clearance’ fails, the goalkeeper can then handle the ball
   479. Mefisto Posted: August 17, 2019 at 07:43 PM (#5872218)
My first thought the goal should have been disallowed. Now that I've read the rule and watched the replay, I think it should stand.
   480. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5872219)
I think the rule is just poorly drafted. Everyone interprets it to mean:

A player either (1) gains control/possession of the ball and then scores or (2) creates a goal-scoring opportunity, in each case, after it has touched their hand/arm.

edit: or it could even be "in significant part as a result of it touching their hand/arm". Not sure whether that will be the interpretation or not, but probably.
   481. Mefisto Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5872221)
I can't tell from the replay whether the ball came off LaPorte's head/chest first (or perhaps the defender's head). I'm also not sure what is meant by the arm being "close to the body". In either case, I thought the rule for VAR was "clear and obvious error". I don't see such an error.
   482. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5872222)
The EPL website says the following (seems like a paraphrase, but it's consistent with my interpretation above): "A goal scored or created with the use of the hand or arm will be disallowed even if it is accidental. The handball rule does not consider intent by a player."
   483. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5872223)
I can't tell from the replay whether the ball came off LaPorte's head/chest first (or perhaps the defender's head). I'm also not sure what is meant by the arm being "close to the body". In either case, I thought the rule for VAR was "clear and obvious error". I don't see such an error.


I guess it's not 100% clear that it doesn't graze any other part of his body, but it is clear that the main deflection comes when it hits his arm. Without hitting the arm, the ball doesn't go to Jesus.

"Close to the body" is irrelevant for this rule. It is trumped by the bolded rule above.

The clear and obvious error is that the scoring chance was clearly and obviously created by the ball striking the arm. As far as I can tell, there is almost no one that thinks the rule was incorrectly applied in this case. People just don't like the rule (which I have some sympathy with.)
   484. Mefisto Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:14 PM (#5872225)
"A goal scored or created with the use of the hand or arm will be disallowed even if it is accidental. The handball rule does not consider intent by a player."


This seems to some extent inconsistent with the exceptions in the second paragraph of the rule. I'd say the same about the deflection (which I agree sent the ball to Jesus): if the ball deflected off some other body part first, then by the exceptions the goal should stand. And since I can't tell if it did deflect off some other body part first, I can't say there was "clear and obvious error".

I could be wrong about this, of course.
   485. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:17 PM (#5872227)

This seems to some extent inconsistent with the exceptions in the second paragraph of the rule. I'd say the same about the deflection (which I agree sent the ball to Jesus): if the ball deflected off some other body part first, then by the exceptions the goal should stand. And since I can't tell if it did deflect off some other body part first, I can't say there was "clear and obvious error".

I could be wrong about this, of course.
Indeed, because the exceptions in the second part of the rule are irrelevant to the first part of the rule.


The following will not usually be a free kick, unless they are one of the above situations:


   486. Mefisto Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:23 PM (#5872228)
My bad. I glossed right over that.
   487. spivey Posted: August 17, 2019 at 08:32 PM (#5872229)
UP YOUR GAME CITY YOU COWARDS
   488. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 18, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5872291)
Sheffield United are on the board!
   489. Richard Posted: August 18, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5872305)
A well deserved victory. United gave Palace nothing and looked the sharper side. Very pleased with this start.

   490. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 18, 2019 at 11:10 AM (#5872308)
The referee for th Chelsea-Leicester got stuck in traffic so it appears that the fourth official will be the man in the middle for his first ever EPL game.
   491. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 18, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5872311)
United gave Palace nothing and looked the sharper side.
Didn't see the game, but the xG stats really back this up. Two good games already for Sheffield United this year.
   492. spivey Posted: August 18, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5872323)
Maddison is an exciting talent but that man has never seen a shot he doesn’t like.
   493. spivey Posted: August 18, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5872330)
Leicester looked pretty damn good that second half. They looked more likely to score the late winner, just need to be a bit better at the final ball.
   494. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 18, 2019 at 01:24 PM (#5872331)
Two straight games where Chelsea fell apart a bit in the second half. Is that coaching?
   495. Baldrick Posted: August 18, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5872333)
Sky Blue have a crowd of around 10,000 people at Red Bull Arena this afternoon. Which is the equivalent of like five games at their usual home at Rutgers. They're going to obliterate their record crowd here. Hard to tell whether it portends positive things going forward or is just a one-off.

The game itself is pretty tedious through the opening 30, with the only real big event being an injury to Shea Groom that saw her stretchered off. Looked like a cracked rib at least, maybe a punctured lung in the process? Either way, yikes.
   496. Baldrick Posted: August 18, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5872335)
As I say that...Sky Blue score an absolutely ridiculous goal to go up 1-0. Hello!

45 seconds later, and now it's 1-1. Alright!
   497. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 18, 2019 at 04:31 PM (#5872382)
Other than Ajax (and how good are they now?) there isn't a team in this QL qualifying set of 12 teams that has any real chance of making it out of the CL group stages. Porto was the other decent bet, but they dropped to Europa.

Europa has a very different structure, with more than half the teams coming in via qualifying this week (6 through losses in the CL qualifying this week). So lots of the teams playing this week could make it through the group stages, and at least a few of them will have to.
   498. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 18, 2019 at 05:02 PM (#5872388)
81 degrees in Madrid. Morata is wearing a long-sleeve jersey. Most of the crowd is even in short sleeves. Does he always do that?

Atleti up 1-0 on a Morata header. In the 38th minute, a Getafe player was red-carded with VAR aid. I didn't see the incident, so can't say if it was justified. To that point, Atleti hadn't picked up any cards of their own. But then, in the 41st and 42nd minutes Lodi picked up consecutive yellows and was sent off. Both incidents looked like they could be fouls, but both a little harsh for yellows. Screams of make-up call.
   499. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 18, 2019 at 08:01 PM (#5872414)
I see some (including Marcotti) are making a big deal about the player gaining possession/control of the ball prior to the goal scoring action, claiming that by the letter of the rule, Laporte never "gained possession/control". Seems fairly clear that the way the rule is currently being interpreted (including by the EPL's own summary of the rule from prior to the season), that what Laporte did with his arm qualified as "gaining possession/control" for the purposes of this rule, if not for himself then at least for his team.

I don't know why the rule is written so poorly--it's almost like IFAB wrote it in some other language and then had a non-native speaker translate it into English.
   500. Mr Dashwood Posted: August 18, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5872419)
flip
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