Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, June 07, 2019

OT Soccer Thread - Baldrick Reports Live

Sum-sum-summertime thread.

June 7 (that’s today!) - Women’s World Cup.  BTF correspondent Baldrick is on the scene (link takes you to his preview of the tournament)
June 14 - Copa America begins (no Neymar)
June 15 - Gold Cup begins
June 18 - US first Gold Cup game
June 21 - Africa Cup of Nations begins
July 7 - Women’s World Cup Final/Copa America Final/Gold Cup Final - Can we get some discussion about the ridiculousness of the WWC being just one of a series of finals on the same day? Of note is that the Copa America final is the exact same time as the WWC final. 
July 19 - Africa Cup of Nations final

Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: June 07, 2019 at 12:22 PM | 1414 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 10 of 15 pages ‹ First  < 8 9 10 11 12 >  Last ›
   901. Mefisto Posted: July 06, 2019 at 02:42 PM (#5859396)
Flip
   902. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 03:46 PM (#5859415)
Really ugly in the Copa America. Medel and Messi jostling and chest to chest after the ball went over the goal line, which was dumb but fairly minor. Ref gave them both red cards and then everyone on both teams surrounded the ref, linesmen, and each other--arguing, yelling and slightly jostling. Argentina's also been up 2-0 for a while and this is the 3d place game after all. So pointless and stupid. Almost no player on either team came off well from what I could see.
   903. puck Posted: July 06, 2019 at 03:48 PM (#5859416)
Unfortunate for Messi. Medel's been a simmering hothead the whole match (well, his whole career, but especially this match).

Messi bumped him a little aggressively as Medel was shepherding a ball out of bounds, but then Medel came back with a series of aggressive chest bumps.

The surrounding of the ref was ridiculous...has been the entire match.
   904. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5859417)
Now Pulgar fouling everybody. Nasty-ish challenge could have gotten a red just now. Only a caution.
   905. puck Posted: July 06, 2019 at 03:58 PM (#5859421)
Every time I watch a Copa or CONMEBOL qualifiers I am reminded South American soccer is something else.
   906. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5859427)
That last one did look like a foul, sorta? Clear/obvious though? Then we have this was it in the box, thing, which apparently doesn't have to be clear/obvious (since it is not supposed to be a judgment call).

Can't say I really like this call. But 2-0 in the 3rd place game, I can't get worked up about it in the slightest.
   907. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 04:24 PM (#5859429)
Pulgar should be off by now.
   908. Mefisto Posted: July 06, 2019 at 04:57 PM (#5859433)
I'm seeing a fair amount of criticism of Neville for his coaching job. I was skeptical when they hired him, but I can't honestly say that I thought he did a bad job. England came within inches of beating the US, and then again against Sweden. I can't see how a even great coach would have managed convincing wins in either game; maybe it's just frustration.
   909. puck Posted: July 06, 2019 at 05:38 PM (#5859443)
Jill Ellis might win back to back World Cups and she's criticized all over the place.
   910. Mefisto Posted: July 06, 2019 at 05:47 PM (#5859448)
True. I thought of that before I posted my comments about Neville. I guess part of the difference is in how I see the talent of the 2 teams, how the coach sets the team up, and what the coach says about the team. In the case of Ellis, I see the US as having easily the best talent in the world, but I see flaws in the way she organizes that talent -- fewer this year than in 2015 -- and her comments tend to be gibberish. England has good talent, but not obviously the best. Its results seem commensurate with that: made the semi-finals, could have won that game and/or the bronze medal game too with a bit more luck. I don't follow the English team that closely, so I can't comment on Neville's public statements.
   911. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 07:11 PM (#5859470)
Messi keeps talking about the ref in the Brazil/Argentina game being corrupted, and how unfair it all was, including the cards going against Argentina in that game. I only saw about the first 20 minutes of the Brazil/Argentina game, so it could have been a lot different after that, but in the early part of the game Brazil was the far better team and Argentina spent the first 15 minutes kicking every Brazilian player they could. So I'm not totally convinced.

Messi even went on to say (edit: with a "maybe") that his red card today was in part payback for voicing that CONMEBOL is corrupt. That seems highly unlikely (edit: the "payback" part, not the "corrupt" part).
   912. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 06, 2019 at 07:48 PM (#5859476)
Odds for the games tomorrow:

USA 82%
Brazil 86%
Mexico 62%

I'll probably miss the USWNT game tomorrow, but could watch the 2nd half if it's still close.
   913. Welcome to Gator Hammock (CoB). Posted: July 06, 2019 at 08:15 PM (#5859480)
Jill Ellis might win back to back World Cups and she's criticized all over the place.


Pick ONE word to describe Jill Ellis and her tenure.

I would, but I'm torn between cromulent and meh.

The US doesn't have ALL the best players, but they've clearly got the best roster, top to bottom.

I mean, they're not the '27 Yankees, but probably?

Your glue sniffing nephew who got popped last week in the Piggly-Wiggly parking lot for trying to sell meth to an undercover cop because she said was underage and he wanted to hook up with her?*

Could have done as well.

She's beige.

*NO offense to your nephews or mine ... just turning a phrase.
   914. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: July 06, 2019 at 08:31 PM (#5859484)
I won’t pretend to be an expert on tactics particularly women’s soccer tactics but I have a theory about managers like Ellis. It’s a theory that comes from the 80s.

KC Jones coached the Celtics to two world titles and two other conference titles during a stretch when the Celtics were immensely talented. He was often scorned as just pushing buttons. However, I think there is a type of wisdom in not screwing things up that a lot of coaches/managers don’t have. We see this with the Patriots now. I don’t watch a lot of football (and I’m not a Pats fan) but what strikes me about the Pats is that when I do watch it seems like their opponents do dumb things regularly.

I think it is very easy to screw up a good thing and not doing so is an underappreciated skill. I’m not saying Ellis is a great coach or anything, I genuinely don’t know but;

The USWNT is very clearly the best in the world
They have won the stuff they were supposed to win under her stewardship
The team seems to be very “together” so if there are egos in that room (and why wouldn’t there be given how good they are) she’s keeping any drama behind the scenes.

   915. Mefisto Posted: July 06, 2019 at 08:53 PM (#5859490)
I agree with Jose's last point.

I also think "she doesn't screw it up" is true up to a point. First, when you have the best talent, screwing it up requires real work. Could you screw up the '27 Yankees? Sure, I guess. But winning with that level team doesn't make you good. Second, she's come close to screwing it up and gotten away with it: in 2015 she failed to sort the midfield until her hand was forced, and the US nearly went out early; in 2019 the US has needed some breaks to get into the final, though to be fair it had to play a difficult schedule. As I see it, Ellis is hanging on because US talent is dominant.
   916. Welcome to Gator Hammock (CoB). Posted: July 06, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5859531)
in 2015 she failed to sort the midfield until her hand was forced


ding!

As I see it, Ellis is hanging on because US talent is dominant.


ding!

Tim ####### Sherwood, gillet and all, would likely have pulled off what she's done.

I don't think I'd trust Tim Sherwood to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel ...

   917. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:17 AM (#5859552)
The key point is that the level of coaching in the women's game is exceptionally low. You could pluck any random person from League 2 and they'd have FAR more tactical knowledge, experience, training, etc. than the average coach of a team at the Women's World Cup. There just isn't money in the game except at the very top levels, and even there it's not very much.

Basically every team at the whole tournament played either a 442 or a 433, and it's not like there was much variation within those either. Almost no teams put even a tiny bit of effort into adapting for the team they were playing. I would say that one or two coaches at the WC actively contributed to making their team better. Peter Gerhardsson for Sweden, definitely. Maybe Asako Takakura for Japan. That's it.

Coaches like Ellis and Neville bring some strengths and weaknesses, but the fact that they bring any strengths at all immediately lifts them into at least the second tier. Ellis has no clue how to design a big picture tactical game plan, but once she fumbles her way into a workable system she can get out of the way and mostly let it work. She seems to be quite good at keeping all the players focused and moving in the same direction. That's not a ringing endorsement, but there just aren't many people who could obviously bring a whole lot more. And in the specific context of this USWNT, I'm not convinced that a better coach would necessarily produce better results. With a team this good, innovation and adaptation might create more problems than it's worth.

For Neville, he did a perfectly fine job. Made a few major mistakes, but also did a lot of stuff well. Which is pretty telling, actually. Despite no real experience or familiarity with the women's game, he stepped into the job and is already one of the better coaches.
   918. Mefisto Posted: July 07, 2019 at 09:26 AM (#5859568)
That all seems fair Baldrick.
   919. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5859570)
Rapinoe and Lavelle starting (no Horan), so maybe it's time for me to go back over those Ellis knows what she's doing takes again.
   920. Mefisto Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5859571)
Yeesh. The saving grace is that the US is so deep in talent at midfield it probably won't be that big a difference, but WHY? And Rapinoe? The coach wants to give her one last hurrah.... in a World Cup Final????
   921. Mefisto Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5859573)
In addition to those weird personnel decisions, I'll bet Ellis opts to use long balls rather than let her world-best midfield wipe the floor with the other team.
   922. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 07, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5859578)
any time the Dutch midfielders get a little time on the ball and berensteyn runs at the central defense (with or without the ball) terrifies me.
   923. JJ1986 Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5859589)
VAR is the worst.
   924. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5859590)
That was the correct call but I was hoping they wouldn’t give it.
   925. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5859592)
The US certainly deserves to be winning this game and had gotten the ass end of luck/refereeing in the game so far, but these ticky tack VAR penalties / offsides being the lasting image of this World Cup isn't a great look.
   926. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5859593)
At least the Dutch will force the action now.
   927. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:27 PM (#5859594)
She put the PK in, now get Rapinoe off.
   928. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5859595)
Champs!
   929. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5859597)
Heath trying to walk that one in.
   930. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5859598)
Lavelle's moments of magic are so beautiful.
   931. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5859599)
A real goal!

I hate penalty kicks. I get the need but not why people get so excited for them.

Also, you guys are maybe a touch too far on the “thinking fan” spectrum. Your team is comfortably winning the wc final and all you can do is criticize. Enjoy it.
   932. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5859601)
Dutch keeper has been great.
   933. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:44 PM (#5859603)
Tobin! Shoot damn it!
   934. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:51 PM (#5859606)
weird double post
   935. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5859607)
Champs, officially!
   936. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5859608)
Great World Cup for the women.

Commentator just said 'against all odds'. I'm going to go Inigo Montoya on that.
   937. Mefisto Posted: July 07, 2019 at 12:59 PM (#5859609)
It's hardly "against all odds" because the US has dominant talent, but they did have to beat all the other good teams in order to win.
   938. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5859610)
Was hoping she was congratulating the Dutch when I heard the phrase, “against all odds”.

I’m very happy but the only acceptable non championship result would have been a loss to the French.
   939. Howie Menckel Posted: July 07, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5859611)
I liked this:


Don Van Natta Jr.
‏Verified account @DVNJr
42m42 minutes ago

I’m in a London pub and an elderly Brit just said to himself, “Now that’s a *proper* goal.” Yes, sir. Yes, it was.
   940. Howie Menckel Posted: July 07, 2019 at 01:27 PM (#5859618)
I liked this:


Don Van Natta Jr.
‏Verified account @DVNJr
42m42 minutes ago

I’m in a London pub and an elderly Brit just said to himself, “Now that’s a *proper* goal.” Yes, sir. Yes, it was.
   941. Mefisto Posted: July 07, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5859623)
MCOA put up the xG before and after the penalty:

Before US .4, Neth .02 (!)
After US 1.4, Neth .1

   942. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5859624)
Where are have you guys found Copa America on US stations? I don’t see it listed tonight.
   943. SteveF Posted: July 07, 2019 at 02:31 PM (#5859631)
Telemundo, assuming you don't mind a spanish language broadcast. Otherwise it's on ESPN+.
   944. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 07, 2019 at 02:32 PM (#5859632)
It's either streaming in English on ESPN+ or Telemundo in Spanish.
   945. SteveF Posted: July 07, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5859634)
The upside to Telemundo is that you can get it for free in most areas with a digital antenna. So if you're one of those cable cutters and don't have an ESPN+ sub...
   946. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5859637)
I’m in a London pub and an elderly Brit just said to himself, “Now that’s a *proper* goal.” Yes, sir. Yes, it was.


Yes. It was. ######' A, bring on the Olympics!
   947. KronicFatigue Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5859638)
1) thanks Baldrick for making the wwc more enjoyable with your informative posts

2) I highly recommend dropping 20 bucks on a digital antenna for people who live in areas where they work well (and you can find that info online). That being said, I also recently discovered the app "locast" which gives you those local channels free on your phone. I'm in NYC area and wasn't getting wpix for some reason on my antenna but it works on the app so I just Chromecast the Mets games onto my tv.

Will be using the antenna for telemundo tonight
   948. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:24 PM (#5859639)
Rapinoe getting the Golden Ball seems like Dawson getting the MVP in 1987, except the Cubs sucked in 1987.
   949. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:27 PM (#5859640)
Also, you guys are maybe a touch too far on the “thinking fan” spectrum. Your team is comfortably winning the wc final and all you can do is criticize. Enjoy it.

I was rooting against them!

One thing that's become very clear to me is that my nationalism gene is permanently broken. It was super boring that the US won and would have been a lot more fun if literally anyone else had won. Oh well.
   950. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5859641)
Rapinoe getting the Golden Ball seems like Dawson getting the MVP in 1987, except the Cubs sucked in 1987.

It's very 1990s AL MVP voting.

But I'm trying to not be annoyed about it because she's so awesome as a person and spent a long time being underrated and then written off, but managed to come back and be genuinely world class in 2017 and 2018.

Here's my personal ballot for Best XI and golden ball. tl;dr: 1. Kosovare Asllani, 2. Lucy Bronze, 3. Rose Lavelle.
   951. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:31 PM (#5859642)
And here's one other thing: The World Cup is Over. Come Watch the NWSL!
   952. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5859643)
Anyway, thanks for joining me on this crazy ride, y'all. It's been a boatload of fun. Probably a once in a lifetime experience, given the obligations of life hat will surely get in the way of any future tournaments like this. But I'm truly lucky to have been at the right point in my life where it was feasible to do this.
   953. bunyon Posted: July 07, 2019 at 04:31 PM (#5859655)
Like everyone else, Baldrick, I’ve really enjoyed your reports. Thanks for sharing.

Also, thanks for the Telemundo tip. I thought it was the late game; I’m tied up until 7 so I’ll miss Brazil’s coronation.
   954. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 04:46 PM (#5859659)
Pretty good game going on in Brazil. Peru is playing quite well, and just drew level on one of those tough penalties that refs have been instructed to call-straight out of the textbook. It was so clear there was no reason for a VAR check, but they had one anyway. Ref gave the penalty.

edit: didn't last long. Brazil struck again just before the half.
   955. spivey Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:02 PM (#5859662)
Can someone explain to me why they didn't like the PK on the Netherlands? Is it just not wanting that to be the first goal of a WC final? That Netherlands player clearly kicked, with her studs up, Morgan. It wasn't a super dangerous attacking position but it wasn't nothing either. It was a crystal clear penalty to me.
   956. Baldrick Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:13 PM (#5859665)
Can someone explain to me why they didn't like the PK on the Netherlands? Is it just not wanting that to be the first goal of a WC final? That Netherlands player clearly kicked, with her studs up, Morgan. It wasn't a super dangerous attacking position but it wasn't nothing either. It was a crystal clear penalty to me.

It sucks when an enticing game is decided by a dumb penalty in a situation where it definitely wasn't necessary to make that play. Especially when VAR gets involved.

I think it pretty clearly was a penalty. As soon as they showed the replay we all knew VAR would come and give it. But it's one of those cases where the 'mistake' feels more just than the correct call.
   957. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:33 PM (#5859667)
Gabriel Jesus with his second yellow, so is off. Seems a bit of a bad break, since he was fouled a lot today. 20 minutes left for Peru to make something of it, down 1.

edit: it was a tough one too, for a second yellow. Wasn't one that necessarily had to be given, though Jesus was out of control on the challenge and it's the kind of play that sometimes gets a yellow.
   958. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:43 PM (#5859673)
Ugh. CONMEBOL. Brazilian players surrounding the ref claiming a red for an elbow. Maybe a foul at most. Maybe. Definitely not even deserving of a yellow though.
   959. SteveF Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:51 PM (#5859674)
That looked like a clean check to me. Oh wait... wrong sport.
   960. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:51 PM (#5859675)
That's not usually called a penalty... shoulder charge-ish in the box with the offensive player not really having possession anymore. Not clear/obvious to me to reverse it though since it was called a penalty on the field. Maybe they'll start calling these shoulder charges with VAR around--historically defenders have sometimes gotten away with murder on them.
   961. spivey Posted: July 07, 2019 at 05:53 PM (#5859677)
I don't like that call for Brazil's last minute penalty. Challenge looked shoulder to shoulder and the defender I don't think was being needlessly physical or not playing the ball. He shouldered Everton to let his keeper claim it.

That said that Jesus and PK calls for Peru were both probably right for me, but definitely not ones that would be given if there's anything rigged.

Man, CONMEBOL soccer is just a different world. Part of me would like to loan out Skipp and Winks down there for a year to teach them the dark arts before they come back. Only kind of joking there.
   962. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 07, 2019 at 06:17 PM (#5859682)
To me there's no way that should have been a penalty for Brazil. But I don't think it would have mattered because Peru never looked like scoring again despite the man advantage.

I also don't understand all the complaints about the penalty for the US women. It was a very obvious foul and it was in the box.
   963. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: July 07, 2019 at 06:26 PM (#5859684)
I also don't understand all the complaints about the penalty for the US women. It was a very obvious foul and it was in the box.

I think everybody agrees that it was an obvious call. But it still sucks that the deciding goal of the WC final came on a penalty where the attacker wasn't in anything vaguely resembling an advantageous position.

The women's side of the sport is marginalized as it is, and deciding the biggest match of the four year cycle on a pointless blunder doesn't exactly elevate the game.
   964. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 06:54 PM (#5859688)
Brazil looked shaky for about 5 minutes after Jesus was sent off, with Peru getting some decent looks. But then they really slowed down the game and Peru never seemed to get another chance in the last 15 minutes. It was actually fairly impressive. The penalty was just icing on the cake at that point.

It may be that it sucks when the final is decided on a penalty like the one in the women's final (which I didn't actually see, so I'm just assuming it was as described), but I think it sucks worse when obvious fouls are overlooked for any reason.
   965. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 07, 2019 at 07:15 PM (#5859690)
Eh I disagree. Within the context of football's existing penalty rules, I'm OK with the discretion afforded refs to disregard accidental, immaterial fouls that happen to occur in the box.

(A much better solution would be rule changes so that those types of fouls, and the contact that routinely occurs on corners, could get policed without having to resort to the nuclear option)
   966. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 07:25 PM (#5859691)
Within the context of football's existing penalty rules, I'm OK with the discretion afforded refs to disregard accidental, immaterial fouls that happen to occur in the box.
No longer any such thing, with VAR.
   967. Howie Menckel Posted: July 07, 2019 at 07:50 PM (#5859693)
seems as if the fundamental problem is that a penalty kick is way too easy, in a sport where scoring is so difficult. the extremes are enormous.

having fouls such as that leave the offending team with just 10 players for up to 10 minutes - or until the other team scores a goal - strikes me as a much better remedy.

but it's too late to fix now, isn't it?
:)
   968. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 07, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5859709)
Pulisic and jozy need to bury those
   969. Welcome to Gator Hammock (CoB). Posted: July 07, 2019 at 09:26 PM (#5859710)
No kidding, dammit.

Are we watching the JV?

Oh ... yeah, it's the USNMT, so ... yes.
   970. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 07, 2019 at 09:58 PM (#5859721)
The women's side of the sport is marginalized as it is, and deciding the biggest match of the four year cycle on a pointless blunder doesn't exactly elevate the game.


All I've seen on Twitter all day from people who ordinarily never mention sports is "Praise our glorious women's team! I have nothing but scorn for our incompetent men's team, who probably haven't played a game in months. All I know is they are overpaid", so I think it's elevated the game well enough.
   971. SteveF Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:01 PM (#5859722)
Eww.
   972. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5859724)
USMNT played much better than expected. Had the best chances of the first half. Altidore looks gassed already though, and they seem to be much more dangerous on the attack than when Zardes comes in, which seems sure to happen relatively early in the 2nd.
   973. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:22 PM (#5859726)
Moreno with a cheap shot on Altidore.
   974. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 10:50 PM (#5859737)
After the Mexican goal, they cut to a close-up of an overjoyed fan in the crowd with a shirt that said, clear as day "chingue su madre".
   975. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 11:05 PM (#5859739)
3 minutes stoppage time. Kind of a joke considering the Mexican players have been time wasting for 20 minutes, and the ref has pointed it out on several occasions.
   976. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 07, 2019 at 11:08 PM (#5859740)
Disappointing to lose, and frustrating that the USMNT didn't look that great in the second half, but overall it was a fairly even game. I wouldn't be surprised if the USMNT had the better of the xG. Better than I expected, that's for sure.
   977. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: July 07, 2019 at 11:14 PM (#5859743)
All I've seen on Twitter all day from people who ordinarily never mention sports is "Praise our glorious women's team! I have nothing but scorn for our incompetent men's team, who probably haven't played a game in months. All I know is they are overpaid", so I think it's elevated the game well enough.

Today is the high watermark over a four year cycle for the USWNT. Your point kinda gets to why Rapinoe got 75 minutes of playing time today, but it really doesn't address the problem women's soccer has in attracting dollars.
   978. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:23 AM (#5859754)
There's a pro league, right? Surely the exposure will cause a few more eyeballs to tune in for that what its season starts. The only way to ever make as much money is to attract as much advertising revenue.
   979. Baldrick Posted: July 08, 2019 at 04:39 AM (#5859759)
There's a pro league, right?

Indeed there is.

They have had a very hard time generating sponsorships, partly because they are not part of the same marketing deal as the national teams and MLS - which means that the league is almost literally being run by a competitor in marketing terms. It's not great!

There has been some very slow movement - including a big multiyear deal with Budweiser that was announced (at 2AM for reasons unknown) yesterday - and the hope is that the league will be able to extract itself from the Not Great tendrils of US Soccer and float somewhat independently. But they have done very little to capitalize on all the interest right now (in part because they basically have no staff), and it sucks.
   980. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 08, 2019 at 06:21 AM (#5859762)
I have less issue with the penalty in the final because less than 10 minutes later Rose Lavelle scored a banger from open play, so it wasn't just the penalty deciding the game. Add to that that the penalty was not soft (Morgan got cleated in the shoulder! While standing up!) and I'm not fussed about it at all.

It was the end of a great tournament for the US and for women's soccer across the world, and even if the NWSL is still a bit of a mess the major European teams devoting some real resources to women's soccer is gonna help the game continue to grow.
   981. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2019 at 07:12 AM (#5859766)
In the event my post is being referred to as “people” against the penalty, I’m not. The penalty in the women’s game was a no-doubter and well earned after lengthy attacks.

I just don’t like penalty kicks. They’re boring and close to gummies. I get that it put the team up 1-0 in the World Cup final but celebrating a converted pk feels like celebrating tying your shoe.

It’s not a particularly logical position but it’s how I feel. I also think eliminating them would lead to bloodshed in front of goal. I’m not arguing anything, I just don’t like them.
   982. Sean Forman Posted: July 08, 2019 at 09:26 AM (#5859780)
There's a pro league, right? Surely the exposure will cause a few more eyeballs to tune in for that what its season starts. The only way to ever make as much money is to attract as much advertising revenue.


There's also a constantly improving stats website for them. https://fbref.com/en/comps/182/NWSL-Stats
   983. Sean Forman Posted: July 08, 2019 at 09:38 AM (#5859785)
I'm not a rabid viewer of the USWNT, but follow it somewhat and at this point it's pretty clear that Ellis is like Jeter's defense. There will never be the expected payoff of chickens coming home to roost. I think the locker room works well mainly because she just defers to the star system in nearly all cases. At some point this may matter, but it sure doesn't now. All that said, Great Win. Hopefully, this win and Budweieser and ESPN deal get the league on solid footing. If I were US Soccer I'd be really really scared that the Euro teams are going to start paying women more and will swoop in for the best US players and turn the NWSL into MLS for women.

Also, the fact that things like the new football leagues and the Big 3 which featured a 50yo Mahmoud Adbul-Raouf yesterday are on broadcast TV while the WNBA and NWSL aren't is just straight up sexism. It's ridiculous.


Watched the MNT as well. First half was a lot of fun as the US had two real chances and several more half chances. Morris also had a clear header cleared off the line in the second half. US did not have enough passing ability to play through Mexico when they ratcheted up the press.

I could not believe there were no yellows. The foul on Altidore at the start of the 2nd was bonkers and then Guardado put his hand around McKennie's neck soon after.

USA actually had more xG on fewer shots. But it's clear that the USMNT currently has three world class players (thankfually they are all 20). Pulisic and Adams and McKennie a step behind them. I think there are more coming, but they need to have 10+ players playing in the UCL group stages before we are making noise internationally. I actually think that might happen over the next 3-4 years. I think it's more likely than not that we are a top 10 side by 2026.
   984. spivey Posted: July 08, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5859800)
I wish I had your optimism, Sean. The US can get golden generations like Chile and Croatia have had, sure, I guess, where they have little short stints near the top of all of the guys break through. We simply need to be putting out way more promising youngsters than we have in the past, though, and having them in top academies (whether Europe or MLS stepping up their academy game) when they're young. Right now for the US to be good next WC, pretty much all of Pulisic, Adams, McKennie, Weah, and Sargent need to not flop. The top nations have dozens of these kind of promising players, many of whom don't pan out.
   985. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 08, 2019 at 11:09 AM (#5859811)
Yeah, that was a penalty.

The only reason I didn't want it called was because I was really confident the US was going to win and I didn't want the critics to have ammunition to say they "lucked" into winning or it was because of a "conspiracy". But anyone who says it wasn't a penalty on merits is crazy.
   986. Mefisto Posted: July 08, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5859816)
To follow up Sean's point in 983 about Ellis, one that Baldrick made earlier, here are 2 tweets from Mike Goodman this morning:

"The thing about Jill Ellis is that she seems manifestly great at lots of things that aren’t tactics. And boy does that give her a lot of room to do whatever the heck it is she does with tactics and say go stuff it."

"You have a lot more room to be a subpar tactician when you’re great at getting the most talented squad in the world all rowing in the same direction at the biggest moments."

I also agree with Sean that Ellis manages the team in part by deferring to the veteran star players. That's not necessarily wrong, but it can backfire in the long run. At some point a coach needs to rebuild with younger players.
   987. Sean Forman Posted: July 08, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5859818)
Spivey, I'm probably overly optimistic, but I think we are going to see a lot of young players break through this year and next. I think there are a good dozen or more u-21s in Germany now.

Reyna, Richards, Sargent, Adams, Soto, Gloster, Booth, Tillman, and some other randos I don't remember.

https://twitter.com/MattDoyle76/status/1147150601517699072

The punchline to that tweetstorm is that over the last decade the number of MLS minutes going to U20's from US and Canada has gone up 30x. I think MLS is now on par with GER and NED for number of minutes given to u-20 players.
   988. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 08, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5859822)
Also, the fact that things like the new football leagues and the Big 3 which featured a 50yo Mahmoud Adbul-Raouf yesterday are on broadcast TV while the WNBA and NWSL aren't is just straight up sexism. It's ridiculous.


It's possible that it's ridiculous, but that would be because broadcast entities were projecting their expected revenue incompetently. Perhaps they are. But do you really think the decision makers at media companies are in the habit of purposely electing to leave money on the table? For a stupid, antiquated reason like sexism, no less?

   989. Topher Posted: July 08, 2019 at 11:42 AM (#5859829)
If I were US Soccer I'd be really really scared that the Euro teams are going to start paying women more and will swoop in for the best US players and turn the NWSL into MLS for women.


I probably shouldn't post this but I'm hoping that somebody that pays more attention to the NWSL will correct me if I'm wrong .... Isn't the relationship between US Soccer and the NWSL and the players so intertwined that you essentially can't play for the the national team unless you play for a NWSL team. Unless something has changed, doesn't the USWNT bring in players beyond the designated FIFA windows? NWSL lets that happen since they are an extension of US Soccer. But a European team would rightly not allow that to happen. It's not a coincidence that the entire 23 woman roster plays domestically even though a few of them did play in Europe a while back and some still continue to play on loan.

At some point, yeah, the wages a European team might offer could incentivize the best talent to leave the NWSL. But at present it seems like if you were to make that decision, you'd also be excluding yourself from the USWNT player pool.

(Now somebody that knows more please tell me where I'm wrong. I'm fairly confident that most of what I am posting was accurate in the recent past but I'm not sure what the current status is ...)
   990. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5859856)
Okay, I don't know much about European women's soccer leagues, by which I mean that I don't even know if there are any European women's soccer leagues, but is there some reason why their leagues would suddenly start paying women so much more?
   991. Baldrick Posted: July 08, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5859858)
I probably shouldn't post this but I'm hoping that somebody that pays more attention to the NWSL will correct me if I'm wrong .... Isn't the relationship between US Soccer and the NWSL and the players so intertwined that you essentially can't play for the the national team unless you play for a NWSL team. Unless something has changed, doesn't the USWNT bring in players beyond the designated FIFA windows? NWSL lets that happen since they are an extension of US Soccer. But a European team would rightly not allow that to happen. It's not a coincidence that the entire 23 woman roster plays domestically even though a few of them did play in Europe a while back and some still continue to play on loan.

Yes and no.

Contractually, players are free to go wherever they want. They're not even actually employed by their NWSL teams. So Alex Morgan went to Lyon for a while, Morgan Brian also did (though it was not a happy experience), Crystal Dunn went to Chelsea, etc. But US Soccer has made it Extremely Clear that they expect their players to be in the NWSL in the run-up to big tournaments. In part because (as you say) they want to be free to call in players whenever they damn well feel like. And the players haven't really challenged the point since the NWSL is a great league.

But as more money gets pumped into European leagues, it's going to be harder to turn down a big salary there. And even more than that, the international stars who currently play in the NWSL (Sam Kerr, Jess Fishlock, etc.) are a huge part of the reason why it's the most competitive league in the world. And THEY can't be leaned on by US Soccer. So if they start jumping ship, the quality of the league is going to decline. Leaving US Soccer in a difficult position. They can continue trying to force players to stay here, but if the league is no longer the best in the world, they risk falling behind other countries whose players are competing at the top level.

It's not going to happen immediately, but without more investment and commitment, the NWSL is going to be surpassed and it's going to create some difficult decisions. I wrote a piece discussing some of these themes here.
   992. Baldrick Posted: July 08, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5859864)
On the subject of what Ellis brings, here's a piece I wrote two years ago when she was thiiis close to getting fired about what she actually brings. It was pretty prescient! Which is nice because predictions are hard and I get a lot of things wrong.

On the subject of entities intentionally refusing to make money, I don't think they see it that way, but sexism doesn't have to be of the "WOMEN ARE BAD BOO WOMEN" to have significant effects. I think that many agents run by men are extremely allergic to the idea that there is a ton of money to be made in these markets, and are failing to make obvious investments that they would jump on if it were a similar chance related to men.

One reason I think that is that the efficient market hypothesis has spectacularly failed to resolve employment discrimination in a million other fields.

Another reason I think that is that I just spent a month at the World Cup watching countless ways in which FIFA (an extraordinarily corrupt organization that loves money quite a bit) making incredibly dumb choices that left massive amounts of money on the table. I talked to many fans who were desperate to spend hundreds of dollars buying merchandise but they literally couldn't get most of the stuff they wanted. And even if they had things in supply, the lines were several hours long. This was not an event run by people trying to maximize their profits.
   993. spivey Posted: July 08, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5859887)
Baldrick - why does the USWNT need to be called in for such long periods. Do they do more training than other WNTs or the USMNT? More tournaments or tactics planning? I guess women probably have more time as all of the top women pros play in the Olympics, right?

   994. Mefisto Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5859903)
DMN: It's not the leagues in Europe, per se, it's the professional clubs. Many of the men's clubs now run women's teams as well, and those teams play each other. European national teams have benefited from significant investments by those club teams in their women's teams.

As to why the increase, I assume it's either a matter of social importance, or as Baldrick suggests, they see money to be made.

   995. Topher Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5859918)
Also to DMN's question:

1. Most European coaching is considered superior to most American coaching. If you take moving to a different continent/culture out of the equation (which obviously should not be ignored), it's going to be better for your development to play across the pond if the money is equal.

2. The European model is much more free market and all it takes is for a handful of owners/boards to be more interested in winning than generating profit to make financial offers that won't be matched in the US. For a semi apples to apples comparison, look at somebody like Diana Taurasi who was making 10x the WNBA salary by playing in Russia. Because the US league is a single entity, they have a lot more control over the salary structure.
   996. Topher Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5859920)
And thanks for clarifying Baldrick, I figured I wasn't 100% accurate on things. I haven't paid too much attention to the NWSL since the Kansas City franchise folded so I wasn't fully sure what the current situation was.
   997. Topher Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:47 PM (#5859928)
Baldrick -- on your Best XI .... I'm surprised that you didn't find room in your midfield for Ertz. Curious to know if she was close to making the cut.

I've been trying to keep my "Megan Rapinoe did not have a great tournament" takes to myself, at least in real world discussion with people paying attention for the first time. But when I was trying to figure out who I thought was the best US player in the tournament, I narrowed it down to Lavelle, Ertz, and O'Hara. And I ended up leaning toward Ertz. Lavelle is probably the right answer and I'm probably penalizing the France game too much.

ETA: The flip side of me penalizing Lavelle too much for the one bad game is me thinking that I'd put Graham Hansen on the best XI, even though it definitely is the wrong call, because her performance against Australia was to me the best performance in the tournament.
   998. Topher Posted: July 08, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5859931)
I talked to many fans who were desperate to spend hundreds of dollars buying merchandise but they literally couldn't get most of the stuff they wanted. And even if they had things in supply, the lines were several hours long.


I went to the two Winnipeg games in 2015. There was one station selling merchandise in the entire stadium. I don't think the line to get to the station ever made it completely end-to-end around the concourse but the line came about 80-85% of the way to making a complete oval.

If memory serves correct, there was an hour break between the first game and the start of the second game. Both times the US played the second game. I went with a friend that brought a couple of kids with him. We got into the stadium 20 or so minutes before kickoff of the first game. He got in line to buy the kids souvenirs. He didn't make it to our seats until almost halftime of the US game. And I can't remember what he ended up buying but I know that whatever it was he got was not anything he would have wanted to get, but everything that he would have bought for the kids was sold out by the time he was able to get into the station.
   999. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5859933)
As to why the increase, I assume it's either a matter of social importance, or as Baldrick suggests, they see money to be made.
Yes, I realize those are the two possibilities. But my question was sort of getting at the question: is there money to be made in women's club soccer in Europe? Obviously soccer is a lot more popular there than here, but I don't get much sense that this is true for women's soccer specifically. Am I wrong about that, or are people just predicting that will change, or are people suggesting that European men's teams will start more heavily subsidizing unprofitable women's soccer teams?
   1000. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2019 at 02:08 PM (#5859934)
Flip.
Page 10 of 15 pages ‹ First  < 8 9 10 11 12 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Jim Wisinski
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogEmpty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird
(4732 - 9:54pm, Jun 03)
Last: JJ1986

NewsblogOT – NBA CoronaThread 2020
(3208 - 9:26pm, Jun 03)
Last: Kurt

Hall of Merit2021 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(291 - 9:24pm, Jun 03)
Last: Dr. Chaleeko

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 6-3-2020
(14 - 9:07pm, Jun 03)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1927 Discussion
(9 - 8:58pm, Jun 03)
Last: Cblau

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (June 2020)
(17 - 8:56pm, Jun 03)
Last: Hysterical & Useless

NewsblogReigning CL MVP Hayato Sakamoto one of two Giants players to test positive for COVID-19
(4 - 8:25pm, Jun 03)
Last: Ron J

NewsblogSources: MLB mulls shorter season, full prorated salaries for players
(33 - 6:50pm, Jun 03)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogChris Archer out until 2021 due to thoracic outlet surgery
(25 - 6:44pm, Jun 03)
Last: Zonk is Dominating the Battlespace

NewsblogRoyals won’t lay off or furlough baseball operations employees despite MLB uncertainty
(3 - 5:15pm, Jun 03)
Last: Zach

NewsblogJudge: Len Dykstra’s reputation is so bad it’s legally impossible to libel him
(27 - 4:09pm, Jun 03)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

Gonfalon CubsBeing cheap is not a plan
(108 - 1:40pm, Jun 03)
Last: Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1927 Ballot
(7 - 1:38pm, Jun 03)
Last: MrC.

NewsblogOT: Wrestling Thread November 2014
(2438 - 11:17pm, Jun 02)
Last: Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1926 Ballot
(21 - 11:06pm, Jun 02)
Last: Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle

-->

Page rendered in 0.6715 seconds
46 querie(s) executed