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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2667 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: wrestling

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101. Mark Edward Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4857833)

Roman Reigns winning the Superstar of the Year Slammy last night makes me think the Slammy voting process might not necessarily be on the up-and-up. That's like the equivalent of Barry Windham winning a PWI wrestler of the year award in the late-80's.

102. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4857850)

Yeah, the rest of the results were pretty reasonable, but that one stands out. Although, there wasn't anybody who stood out as a clear winner. Lesnar with 4 matches? Bryan with 4 months? It almost had to come down to one of the Shield guys. Probably should have been Rollins.

103. Conor Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4857851)

Supposedly, the best financial year WCW ever had was 1992 when Bill Watts was running it.

He did cut costs a lot, but I don't think they ever turned a profit until Bischoff came in; though that was in large part because Turner wasn't paying them much, if anything, for TV prior to that. But 1998 must have been their best year from a financial standpoint and I'd imagine it wasn't even close.

104. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4857857)

though that was in large part because Turner wasn't paying them much, if anything, for TV prior to that

Yeah, it's hard to talk about profitabitily in isolation like that. Sort of like the Cubs saying they're losing money, because Tribune Co. only pays them $0.01 for TV rights.

105. aberg Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4857868)

The only way I could imagine Reigns winning that award being a prloblem is if it WASN'T rigged and it gave him reason to believe that he is a finished product.

106. Mark Edward Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4857887)

Yeah, the rest of the results were pretty reasonable, but that one stands out. Although, there wasn't anybody who stood out as a clear winner. Lesnar with 4 matches? Bryan with 4 months? It almost had to come down to one of the Shield guys. Probably should have been Rollins.

From a strictly kayfabe perspective:
Wyatt- PPV wins over Cena, Bryan, the Shield, and Y2J.
Bryan- Had probably the biggest Wrestlemania moment in over a decade; WWE Title winner in 2014.
Rollins- Winner of Money in the Bank; feud win over Dean Ambrose.
Cena- Feud win over Wyatt; won WWE World Heavyweight Championship in 2014.
Ambrose- Held IC belt in 2014.
Lesnar- Current WWE World Heavyweight champion; ended The Streak; nearly killed Cena at SS.
Reigns- PPV win over Randy Orton.

Brock should've won it but I guess it's weird giving Superstar of the Year to a heel.

107. Conor Posted: December 09, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4857891)

Yeah, it's hard to talk about profitabitily in isolation like that. Sort of like the Cubs saying they're losing money, because Tribune Co. only pays them $0.01 for TV rights.

I believe Meltzer has said they would have turned a profit in 92, and probably in most of the years prior to that, if they were getting what they got in 93 (I wanna say it was $6 million or so).

That being said, it's not getting them in the ballpark of 1998. I was bored, so I looked up the attendance figures for their 6 PPV in 1992; they drew 27,000 people total and $360,000 (got these numbers from the old observers); WCW ran at least 2 shows in 1998 that drew a larger paid and at least doubled the gate.

The vote for Reigns had to be rigged, right? He got quite the (non) pop coming out too.

108. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 09, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4857923)

In kayfabe, Reigns also had the record performance at the Rumble and the deciding pins in the two matches against Evolution. Wyatt had the year's only clean win over Bryan, plus (the year's only?) pin of Reigns in the EC match. Still, Lesnar crushes everyone on kayfabe.

Ziggler probably could have won if his first 6 months had been as strong as his last 5. IC title and the guy who ended the year's central villain in the MotY winner.

Out of kayfabe, Rollins probably had the biggest impact on the current product. Of course, he's been too effective as a heel to win a popularity contest. I still kind of love that WWE flipped the script on Rollins and Ambrose, and that it worked out so well.

From a "Performer of the Year" perspective, I would have gone 1. Rollins 2. Ziggler 3. Ambrose HM Lesnar and Bryan

109. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: December 09, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4857934)

It may be nit picking but what bothers me about Reigns is I find him to be the most predictable wrestler to watch. Also, he sets up his superman punch very similar to his spear but then again alot of fans like predictable

110. aberg Posted: December 09, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4857939)

Last year I blew out my wrestler of the year posts into like 5 posts totalling about 12,000 words. I think I will approach or surass that total again this year. It is really fun to put together the retrospective stuff. I will not have Bryan or Lesnar in the top 5, barring a huge change over the last bit of December.

111. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2014 at 02:39 PM (#4859958)

The booking of HHH in '08 and '09 is killing me inside. He is everything I've heard people say Super Cena is. (In the middle of No Way Out '09)

112. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4859990)

Perhaps everyone knows about this already but DailyMotion.com has a remarkable assortment of 70s and 80s territorial wrestling shows in reasonably good condition, many of which I've never seen on YouTube. Georgia, Mid-Atlantic, WCCW, AWA, there's quite a bit to keep you occupied if you care for such things. I've never seen so much Magnum TA!

113. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4860064)

Edge has quite the knack for winning championships in undeserved fashion and losing them as soon as he wins them. Not sure if any of his title reigns have lasted more than a month.

114. aberg Posted: December 11, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4860107)

Edge has quite the knack for winning championships in undeserved fashion and losing them as soon as he wins them. Not sure if any of his title reigns have lasted more than a month.

I think I recall Edge saying in an interview that he never won a world title cleanly.

115. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 11, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4860128)

The vote for Reigns had to be rigged, right? He got quite the (non) pop coming out too.

His support is certain to pick up, as soon as WWE names a bus The Reigns Express, and drives him over to an aircraft carrier to slam Yokozuna.

116. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 11, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4860142)

The booking of HHH in '08 and '09 is killing me inside. He is everything I've heard people say Super Cena is. (In the middle of No Way Out '09)

At least you have the first Michaels-Taker match coming up soon. And Ricky Steamboat.

117. aberg Posted: December 11, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4860152)

Kevin "Steen" Owens and Sami "El Generico" Zayn are both wrestling on the NXT special event tonight. It probably won't be Ladder War 3, but I do hope they cross paths.

118. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4860155)

I was in the middle of typing how WM 25 has already forced me to endure a Divas Battle Royal and a Kid Rock concert and was now increasing the torture with Jericho in a 3 on 1 match with old timers when...HOLY #### RICKY STEAMBOAT IS ####### AWESOME! This is the only Steamboat match I've ever seen and now I want to go back and watch all of his old stuff.

119. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4860180)

I was in the middle of typing how WM 25 has already forced me to endure a Divas Battle Royal and a Kid Rock concert and was now increasing the torture with Jericho in a 3 on 1 match with old timers when...HOLY #### RICKY STEAMBOAT IS ####### AWESOME! This is the only Steamboat match I've ever seen and now I want to go back and watch all of his old stuff.

iirc, steamboat has a stroke about a week after what you're watching. apparently, it's not very healthy for a 60 year old man to get hit repeatedly in the head.

120. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 11, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4860198)

The stroke was a year later. I can't imagine the two matches helped, though.

121. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 11, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4860205)

Steamboat's brain problems occurred in June 2010, more than a year after Wrestlemania 25. They directly followed a segment on Raw where he was attacked by the Nexus. Unlike CM Punk rhetorically complaining that Ryback took 20 years off his career, in the linked sequence, Ryback (and friends) literally almost took years off Steamboat's life. The Wrestlemania 25 match and an equally well-received followup on the next night's Raw were what had gotten Steamboat back into the ring when he shouldn't have.

[EDIT: An annotated Coke to Chokeland.]

122. aberg Posted: December 11, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4860212)

I think the series of Steamboat-Flair matches from 1989 are the very best wrestled matches I have ever seen, bar none.

123. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4860219)

I think the series of Steamboat-Flair matches from 1989 are the very best wrestled matches I have ever seen, bar none.

Were these all PPV matches? If so, can you let me know which PPVs.

124. aberg Posted: December 11, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4860223)

Chi Town Rumble and Wrestlewar are on the Network (I believe). There's a third one that is on YouTube if you dig around.

125. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 11, 2014 at 07:11 PM (#4860224)

In order:

Chi-town Rumble - http://network.wwe.com/video/v31572841
Clash of the Champions 6 - http://network.wwe.com/video/v32297671 (not technically a PPV, took me a while to find this one on the network when I tried to watch it earlier this summer).
Wrestlewar - http://network.wwe.com/video/v31674733

126. NJ in NJ Posted: December 11, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4860238)

[125] Thanks.

127. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 11, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4860307)

Sami Zayn has really, really peppy music

128. aberg Posted: December 12, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4860504)

Sami Zayn has really, really peppy music

That NXT main event was phenomenal. Great week for wrestling. I also called the finish to the show earlier in the day.

129. NJ in NJ Posted: December 12, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4860885)

It just hit me that Sasha Banks v Charlotte was maybe the best Women's wrestling match I've ever seen.

Did everyone here love the Balor makeup? I'm not a fan. Gave me Jeff Hardy flashbacks.

I thought Owens looked the most like a future star.

130. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 12, 2014 at 07:32 PM (#4860894)

I thought Owens looked the most like a future star.

I'll be shocked if he doesn't get fast tracked to the main roster. He doesn't really need much in the way of seasoning, and he could have some delightfully brutal matches with guys like Cesaro, Rollins, Ambrose, etc. I'm sure they'll keep him around long enough to have a few matches with Zayn, for old times' sake. But yeah, the dive onto the ramp during his match, and then the ring apron power bomb at the end of the show, just looked mean and nasty.

He's got superstar written all over him, if they're smart enough not to neuter him or give him a gimmick beyond "slightly pudgy guy who can beat the crap out of everyone".

131. Gch Posted: December 12, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4860924)

I loved the Owens "They called him first" promo that I saw before the NXT event.

Regal's post-show promo was also great.

132. NJ in NJ Posted: December 13, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4861076)

Finished WM 25.

Undertaker-HBK was awesome as you all predicted, but this felt like an underwhelming Wrestlemania. I'm going to chalk it up to the bad taste left in my mouth from the main event, HHH vs. Randy Orton. The first problem was that it's a match I've seen a bunch of times in the last few weeks, thanks to PPV binging. It seems like Orton and HHH had been feuding for 13 months and had already had several one on one PPV encounters (all of which were better than this). The second problem was that the finish sucked. Rather than something dramatic we got HHH using a sledgehammer to knock Orton out and then wailing away on his head for about half a minute before finally Pedigreeing him. Considering guys usually get pinned after one of HHH's stupid sledgehammer shots this all seemed like a bit much. Going back to the sledgehammer thing...how is HHH even being positioned as the top face at this point? Jeff Hardy and Cena seem like the top two faces to me based on PPV reactions over the months preceding and HHH kind of cheated to beat Jeff Hardy on PPV for like 3 months straight and is now using sledgehammers to win at WM...that seems like a heel. If HHH REALLY wants to main event WM 25 so bad then why not have him go full heel and put Jeff Hardy over to try and create a new superstar? Instead we got a good brother vs brother Hardyz match, a shitty HHH vs Orton match, and a pointless Edge/Cena/Show triple threat.

EDIT: Jack Swagger recently joined the roster and he's terrible.

133. Gch Posted: December 13, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4861217)

At least the Orton / HHH storyline gave us one of the greatest moments in fan interaction:

Orton: "The WWE is in my blood, it is a part of me... but ..... unfortunately something else .... is a part... of me... something... that I have been living with for quite some time..."

Loudmouth fan who is conveniently located next to the WWE's crowd mic: "Herpes!"

Orton: "... it's called......"

Loudmouth: "Herpes!"

Orton: "I...E...D"

134. NJ in NJ Posted: December 13, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4861251)

[133] RDF

135. Mark Edward Posted: December 13, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4861256)

So the Network's added a "Resume Watching" feature which bookmarks where you left off watching a program. That is very nice.

I actually just finished watching Chi-Town Rumble. Flair-Steamboat is indeed great, marred a bit by a silly ending. The Rose/Victory/Dangerously-Midnight Express/Cornette match is fun. Windham-Luger was solid. Everything else is pretty blah. Mike Rotunda took the tactic of stalling to the extreme in his match against Rick Steiner, leading to a really bad match between the two. Crowd was really smarky and Eddie Einhorn was in attendance.

136. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 14, 2014 at 09:06 PM (#4861770)

Cena and Rollins isn't the main event? Huh.

I'd really like to see these guys get a full, normal PPV match at some point.

137. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 14, 2014 at 10:53 PM (#4861837)

Man, lame finish to a pretty good match. Bad PPV overall.

Ambrose was the most over guy on the roster a few months ago, but they book him to lose every feud?

138. NJ in NJ Posted: December 14, 2014 at 11:07 PM (#4861841)

I get that Ambrose is "the lunatic fringe" but I find a lot of his affectations off-putting/disgusting. All the spitting and tongue out and mouth open stuff is a negative for me.

139. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 14, 2014 at 11:20 PM (#4861845)

It's okay by me, WWE hasn't had a Brian Pillman since Brian Pillman. They just need to give Ambrose better material.

140. NJ in NJ Posted: December 14, 2014 at 11:47 PM (#4861859)

Gotta love Roman Reigns triumphantly returning to save the day and get ready for his WM push by butchering the #### out of his first promo. He's just so far from ready, but no one seems to care.

141. Mark Edward Posted: December 15, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4861873)

I get that Ambrose is "the lunatic fringe" but I find a lot of his affectations off-putting/disgusting. All the spitting and tongue out and mouth open stuff is a negative for me.

He's becoming less of a crazy badass and more of a goofy dumbass. Doesn't helped that he's now jobbed to a hologram and TV over the last few PPV's.

Maybe it was my fault for watching Revolution before TLC, but wow did NXT blow the main roster out of the water this week. Harper-Ziggler was the only worthwhile match. I was expecting good stuff out of Rollins-Cena and Wyatt-Ambrose. Rollins-Cena was overbooked (and I don't like the table match gimmick anyway). Wyatt-Ambrose went on and on and just seemed like a series of spots. Everything else was meh, Big Show-Rowan and Kane-Ryback especially bad.

Can we discuss how bad the announcers are again? They spent the pre-show match discussing the Great Gazoo and the main event chuckling their way through the match.

142. NJ in NJ Posted: December 15, 2014 at 01:30 AM (#4861886)

The NXT "PPV" was way better than TLC, but it's mostly the fault of the writers and whoever decided gimmick PPVs was the way to go.

Wyatt-Ambrose went on and on and just seemed like a series of spots.

Talked about this with one of my friends. This is the first TLC PPV I've ever seen, but I think TLC matches are a terrible format for 1 on 1 encounters. Your choice is either lots of "intermission" as guys sell the brutality of what they are going through while attempting to set up the next spot or lots of believability killing no selling as guys make sure the space between spots doesn't drag. When TLC matches first came into existence with the Hardyz, Edge & Christian and Dudleyz, you had 6 guys going at once so that left lots of time for X amount of guys to sell injuries while the remaining guys set up the next spot. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong on this as I haven't watched Backlash '09-TLC '13 and I think it's around this time that the match really gets used.

Big Show-Rowan and Kane-Ryback especially bad.

I wanted to stab myself.

143. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 15, 2014 at 08:09 AM (#4861921)

When TLC matches first came into existence with the Hardyz, Edge & Christian and Dudleyz, you had 6 guys going at once so that left lots of time for X amount of guys to sell injuries while the remaining guys set up the next spot.

It wasn't good wrestling, by far.
However, it was filled with "Holy Sh!t" moments, and that can be just as entertaining once in a while.

144. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 15, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4862062)

Gotta love Roman Reigns triumphantly returning to save the day and get ready for his WM push by butchering the #### out of his first promo. He's just so far from ready, but no one seems to care.

Yeah, the moment where he paused for about 8 seconds at the climax of the promo... he forgot his line. He's going to get pushed to the moon, and the fans are going to turn on him like they turned on Batista earlier this year when they figure out he's essentially got 3 moves (running kick to the head along the apron, superman punch, spear) and no skills on the mic. The Shield was the perfect place for him - he didn't have to say a word, just be the enforcer. He's going to be so exposed, you almost have to feel sorry for him.

This was an awful PPV. There were rumors that the boys in the locker room had been told/had decided that they needed to step it up because of the NXT PPV. It started great with the ladder match, but man it was awful after that. Ryback/Kane and Big Show/Rowan should be on the short list for worst matches of the year. Swagger got squashed again for no particular reason. AJ lost to a spritz of perfume, which wasn't even edgy back in the 1980s when Rick Martel was doing it.

And the whole Cena thing... did he really need to beat 4 people and put Rollins through 4 tables to assert his superiority? What exactly is gained by putting Cena over again? They overbooked the hell out of it - he could have taken the loss and still looked strong. Instead, now Rollins has been taken down a few pegs, and he's still stuck with that stupid briefcase that he can't even use because it's been 3+ months since the champion has even been in the building.

For a year that started off so well, it ended with a thud. I get the feeling that it's not really going to get any better unless Vince has a massive stroke and has to give up the business, or until Bryan comes back (assuming he can come back as a full time performer with no real limitations on his style).

145. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 15, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4862090)

Cena didn't beat 4 people. He beat Rollins and modern day Patterson and Brisco. Rollins has been taken down 0 pegs.

146. aberg Posted: December 15, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4862178)

The thing I didn't understand in the Cena match was why they needed the ref bump, the false finishes, and the theatrics if Cena was going to win anyway. Those are things you do as an excuse for the face to get sympathy when the heel is going to eventually win.

I thought the main event was solid throughout, not really spectacular anywhere except Ambrose's crazy ladder spot. The Ziggler match was tremendous and only helps the IC title. I didn't think the rest of the matches were truly bad, they just didn't mean anything to me.

It's not really fair to compare NXT and WWE PPVs. Zayn and Neville was phenomenal and one of the very best matches of the year. They also had 9 months to build to the match and got 30 minutes of an uninterrupted main event that didn't have to build toward anything else. The women's match was outstanding because they got almost 20 minutes to work and the smarter, smaller crowd there doesn't automatically take a bathroom break when the women come out. Could main roster WWE writers take a lesson from that? Sure, but they're not going to ever go back to that model if they're doing 6 hours of TV a week and 14 PPVs per year. They are mass marketed like the Applebee's of pro wrestling, and I think they do a pretty good job of providing some quality within that quantity.

147. Mark Edward Posted: December 15, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4862273)

Big Show-Rowan was pretty bad. The finish was embarrassing.

It's not really fair to compare NXT and WWE PPVs.

Well, OK. I'd argue NXT is operating under more favorable conditions- one hour of TV per week against the five plus hours of original programming the WWE has to put out.

But that shouldn't downplay that NXT is clearly a better-booked show. Take a look at four matches from Revolution- simple, straightforward stories; every wrestler has a clear, specific motivation for fighting his/her opponent:
Lucha Dragons v. Vaudevillians- Vaudevillians want the tag titles. Lucha Dragons have the tag titles. The two teams have a match to see who will be the tag champs.
Ascension v. Itami/Balor- Ascension get pissed when this new guy (Itami) comes to NXT, beat him down every time he shows up in a ring. Itami recruits an old ally (Balor) to help him fight the Ascension.
Charlotte v. Banks- Simple friends-turned-enemies story.
Neville v. Zayn- Neville will stop at nothing to keep his belt, even if it means cheating. Zayn has one last shot at glory; will he fail or succeed?

And so the two biggest feuds heading into TLC were Ambrose-Wyatt and Rollins/Authority-Cena.
Ambrose v. Wyatt- At Hell in a Cell Ambrose was about to defeat blood rival Seth Rollins but a hologram of Bray Wyatt appeared and cost Ambrose the match. So now Dean Ambrose doesn't like Wyatt. And why did Wyatt interfere in the match- unclear. So Ambrose destroys Wyatt's rocking chair, which maybe used to be his mother's or sister's or maybe a former lover.
Rollins v. Cena- The Authority doesn't like Cena because he won't be a good corporate champion like Seth Rollins. So to screw him over the Authority sets up a match at Survivor Series where if Cena's team loses a bunch of his friends get fired. But Cena's team wins! And the Authority is no longer in power. So instead of the HHH/Stephanie/Rollins Authority group in charge of the WWE we have an Anonymous Authority Figure who tells Cena he needs to beat Seth Rollins at TLC or else he'll lose the chance to fight Lesnar for the world title.

Main show writers have to produce a lot more material but that's no excuse for the current booking (and that's not to mention the constant title changes and pushes for guys like Kane and Big Show). They're relying on burned-out tropes like the Authority Figure/General Manager and it's making for a bad program.

148. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 15, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4862302)

The thing I didn't understand in the Cena match was why they needed the ref bump, the false finishes, and the theatrics if Cena was going to win anyway. Those are things you do as an excuse for the face to get sympathy when the heel is going to eventually win.

Exactly - you do this so that the heel can win, and the face can make the argument that he wouldn't have lost but for all the interference. It's a classic. You don't have everyone rush from the back to help the heel, and then have the face win anyway.

If Cena beat Rollins (+ J&J + some Big Show interference), then is there (currently) room left to believe that Rollins could beat Cena 1-on-1? Or that Rollins could beat Cena in the absence of even more help? That's the problem with doing it this way - before the match, the perception could be that Rollins and Cena were fairly equal, and either could win. After the match, Cena is clearly above Rollins, which doesn't serve to advance things one bit.

Great, Cena's back in the main event picture (as if he ever left), and Rollins does what now - waits for the champion to start appearing again in 6 weeks so he can make having the MITB relevant? Goes into a feud with... I assume not Cena again. Reigns I guess, for interfering to stop the other interference - but Reigns is already booked to be in the Rumble, and I don't think they'd want to over-expose him by having him wrestle a match and be in the Rumble. Or Ambrose, since that never got a real blow-off. Though Ambrose and Wyatt haven't really blown off either. Ziggler, for being the last man standing at the previous PPV?

Lots of questions like that after last night. Who knows, maybe they've got all the answers. But this didn't really feel like it was going anywhere.

149. aberg Posted: December 15, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4862312)

Who knows, maybe they've got all the answers. But this didn't really feel like it was going anywhere.

Just when you think they've got all the answers, you change the questions.

150. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 15, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4862327)

You mean Cena(+Reigns) beat Rollins(+crash dummies+Big Show)

The booking of the match was a complete ###########(Seriously, why is the Big Show there?), but I'm already annoyed at the IWC talking point that Cena beat 4 men, when 2 of them are vanilla midgets, and another was only stopped by Reigns's interference(which also aided in putting Rollins through the winning table)

151. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 15, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4862365)

The Authority doesn't like Cena because he won't be a good corporate champion like Seth Rollins

I don't watch the regular programming (God help anyone who does), so maybe this was explained one time or maybe Cena did something specific the Authority didn't like, but I've never understood this feud (again, from afar). Cena is the corporate champ! Both in real life and storyline he's their A+ player. Why would Seth Rollins as champ be better for business than John Cena?

152. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 15, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4862377)

did ambrose and rollins ever actually blow off their feud? if that's done it seems like a waste, but if it's still simmering...that also seems like a waste.

why would you change a guy's name from kenta to hideo? you're supposed to be in the business of marketing outsized personalities, so instead of letting a guy use his own unique and instantly recognizable name, you turn him into an asian scotty goldman.

153. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 15, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4862396)

Because nobody outside of a tiny percentage of fans knew him as KENTA. Everyone freaked out when El Generico was renamed Sami Zayn and took off his mask. Nobody seems to care anymore. Ultimately it comes down to being able to copyright a name, coupled with the fact that nobody knows who any of these guys are, so who cares?

154. aberg Posted: December 15, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4862422)

I think Kenta's bigger problem is that he just has not been himself in NXT. He became famous for his bumping and his crazy stiff offense. He has not bumped all that much and his offense has looked tentative and not very strong to me. He just has not had the presence he had in the indies. I don't think it has to do with language, either, because I thought he was tremendous whenever he would do a run in ROH. Part of the problem might be that Bryan and Punk repurposed so much of his offense. He can't really do the series of standing kicks, the corner dropkicks, the koji clutch, the GTS, or several of his other spots without evoking them to the American audience. Even for someone with as much diversity as he has in his arsenal, if you take out 4 or 5 regular spots, it is going to show up.

155. NJ in NJ Posted: December 18, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4864482)

Read the Smackdown review on berg's site and had a couple thoughts.

1. I'm also a fan of the Jimmy-Naomi-Miz storyline. I'm glad I'm finally getting more on the Usos than "they are Samoan and they wrestle," I've always liked Naomi's in-ring work, and I like The Miz. Good stuff all around.

2. There was a comment about Reigns needing to lose the cargo pants, which brings me to something that's been on my mind. I wonder how long WWE is going to keep Reigns covered up because despite all the talk of how he's going to get the big push as a result of having the look, Reigns appears to have a fairly high body fat %. Other than CM Punk, most top WWE guys have a lot more muscular definition than I think Reigns does.

156. Dock Ellis

Posted: December 18, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4864551)

I think part of Kenta's problem is that the roster isn't as good as he is, so he has to dumb himself down. He's done some impressive things in NXT so far, but nothing (IMO) as impressive as that crazy high super-kick to Justin Gabriel in his NXT debut.

I loved the GTS tease, though. I marked like crazy. And if anyone wants to see a gruesome pic of CJ Parker's hand after he broke Owen's nose, it's on twitter.

157. Dock Ellis

Posted: December 18, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4864673)

No more edit feature? Anyway, I also wanted to say that I had no idea a ref needed to call a tables match. I assumed you break a table, the match is automatically over.

158. Conor Posted: December 18, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4864678)

I pretty much never watch NXT, but the last show got such great reviews I had to watch it; what an amazing show. I'm sure I'm late to the part, but wow. Just so much fun; the main event was so well done.

2. There was a comment about Reigns needing to lose the cargo pants, which brings me to something that's been on my mind. I wonder how long WWE is going to keep Reigns covered up because despite all the talk of how he's going to get the big push as a result of having the look, Reigns appears to have a fairly high body fat %. Other than CM Punk, most top WWE guys have a lot more muscular definition than I think Reigns does.

I noticed this a little at one of the PPV's that had one of the 6 man Shield-Evolution matches, he's obviously not fat or anything, but if I remember right, his shirt/top/whatever you want to call it was riding up and you could see his was a little flabby compared to the other guys. I also remember him constantly tryign to pull his shirt down to cover it up.

I'm gonna be at the rumble; if they continue with the plan of Reigns winning, going to be real interesting to see how the crowd reacts that night. I don't think it'll go well.

159. NJ in NJ Posted: December 19, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4865649)

My PPV watching has really slowed down since I hit '09. Was this part of the dark period?

160. Gch Posted: December 24, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4868122)

Time for the annual reminder that this is what The Big Show was doing last year at this time (GIF, not safe for anything).

161. NJ in NJ Posted: December 26, 2014 at 09:25 AM (#4868427)

Watching Night of Champions 2009. They've finally allowed CM Punk to talk and he is breathtaking. I think I'm in love.

162. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 26, 2014 at 10:51 AM (#4868448)

I can only assume that's Baby Big Show, 5 weeks after he main evented Survivor Series.

163. NJ in NJ Posted: December 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM (#4868947)

Legacy is kind of like Evolution minus most of the charisma and dominance.

164. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 28, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4868994)

Watching Night of Champions 2009. They've finally allowed CM Punk to talk and he is breathtaking. I think I'm in love.

as i said, when you get to the point where punk takes the title from hardy, you really have to start watching smackdown to see that greatness unfold week after week after week. one great promo after another after another from punk. it is masterful.

165. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 29, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4869690)

That was a pretty good Bryan segment. First Raw I've watched in a while, pretty frustrating one, so it's nice to get some good news.

166. NJ in NJ Posted: December 29, 2014 at 10:54 PM (#4869692)

1. This is the best RAW in a long time, IMO.

2. Can someone explain the Ascension to me? I think their gimmick sucks, their look is terrible, and they are really sloppy in the ring every time I see them.

3. Haven't seen much Bryan, but that was far and away his best promo for me. I thought back to a podcast Austin did in the Spring where he said the biggest hole in Bryan's game was his inability to bring intensity with his mic work. He brought it there and I'm hoping he can save us from a Reigns-Lesnar main event.

4. How may more stipulation matches do they have left to put Wyatt and Ambrose in?

167. NJ in NJ Posted: December 29, 2014 at 11:16 PM (#4869695)

"I'm gonna kill him anyway" Seth Rollins is just great.

168. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 29, 2014 at 11:23 PM (#4869700)

It felt like an uneven episode to me. Some really good matches with mixed finishes quality-wise, but complete debacles for the women and Cesaro. And a bunch of guys having "here's my story" time was kind of weird. The Bryan segment and the Rollins bit at the end were top notch though. I don't like the Authority being back so quick, but it will bring me back to watch next week.

Ambrose is probably going to lose again, since Wyatt is being groomed for Taker. He seems to spend most of his time medically incapacitated.

WWE really needs to use more of their roster. There's too many shmoz finishes right now, because everyone needs to be protected. It's fine to have them, but for more than half the matches?

169. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 29, 2014 at 11:54 PM (#4869711)

Fantasy booking time. Bryan wins the Rumble (crowd is going to turn against anyone else). Lesnar beats Cena, but Rollins cashes in and takes the belt. Rollins and Bryan at Mania, Reigns can still get the full rub from beating Lesnar but doesn't have to be the top guy before he's ready. Fill out the card with Sting-HHH, Cena-Rusev, Ambrose-Orton, Wyatt-Taker, a Divas match with actual wrestling, and find something good for Ziggler.

Reigns can wait until 32, if he's still the guy. Put him over Cena in the main event or do a Shield triple threat.

Alternately, if Bryan is not fully ready, it might be a good idea to have Bryan and Ziggler team together for a while. That lets Bryan ease back into things, and there is more than enough story reason for the Authority to make life hell for those two in particular.

170. NJ in NJ Posted: December 30, 2014 at 08:25 AM (#4869744)

Wyatt-Undertaker at WM seems pointless. The Streak is over so beating Undertaker doesn't mean nearly as much anymore and if Wyatt loses to a 50 year old man he will look weak. Perhaps that's just me.

171. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 30, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4869779)

Oh, I agree. But that's apparently what they are planning on if Taker wrestles. Wyatt or Sting.

172. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 30, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4869791)

I'm not sure Sting makes much sense angle-wise or match quality wise. Trips would be a much better dance partner for both.

173. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: December 30, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4869915)

"I'm gonna kill him anyway" Seth Rollins is just great.

That was fabulous. Rollins had made an excellent and impossible to cheer for heel.

I noticed that while Heyman shook hands and congratulated Rollins on bringing back the Authority, Lesnar was noticeable cool towards Rollins

I was glad to see Bad News back but would've enjoyed him beating someone other than Cesaro who seemed to gain little with his mocking heart to heart with the fans and ensuing loss to Barrett

Ryback's heart to heart was like saying, "hey what CM Punk said about me isn't all true, please cheer me so I can get pushed"

174. NJ in NJ Posted: December 30, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4869957)

Ryback's heart to heart was almost word for word what he said on Jericho's podcast a week or two ago. When that podcast came out a lot of folks on Reddit who normally hate Ryback started discussing how it made them reconsider him. I think it's possible WWE saw that as a way to capitalize and kill some of the smark hate for Ryback.

Cesaro's heart to heart was good...but then he lost, which made it terrible.

175. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: December 30, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4869967)

Cesaro's heart to heart was good...but then he lost, which made it terrible.

Plus Barrett and Cesaro seem like obvious allies, they're both no non-sense European tough guys--one good on the mic, one not so good

I see Orton coming back as a reluctant face when he returns

176. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 30, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4870018)

I'm not sure Sting makes much sense angle-wise or match quality wise. Trips would be a much better dance partner for both.

they should overbook the hell out of it. make it the first match of the night, an elimination chamber with taker, sting, jericho, kevin nash, rey mysterio and bo dallas. it'd be the most hilarious thing ever if dallas comes out on top, and bragging about beating a bunch of 50 year olds would play right into his insufferable ass of a persona.

plus, as punk made a point of saying, bo dallas is the only one who'll back on TV that monday, so if you make him look good at wrestlemania he can carry it forward and help out the rest of the roster the rest of the year.

and the best part is you get all the bullshit out of the way in the first half hour, so you can spend the next 3+ hours putting on a great streamlined show. lesnar v. rollins ;; ambrose v. bryan ;; HHH v. ziggles v. wyatt ;; orton v. ryback ;; cena v. reigns ;; tag team spotfest ;; battle royale ;; divas match.

177. Hot Wheeling American Posted: December 30, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4870287)

and the best part is you get all the bullshit out of the way in the first half hour, so you can spend the next 3+ hours putting on a great streamlined show. lesnar v. rollins ;; ambrose v. bryan ;; HHH v. ziggles v. wyatt ;; orton v. ryback ;; cena v. reigns ;; tag team spotfest ;; battle royale ;; divas match.

They have trouble fitting seven matches on a four hour show. That seems...optimistic.

as i said, when you get to the point where punk takes the title from hardy, you really have to start watching smackdown to see that greatness unfold week after week after week. one great promo after another after another from punk. it is masterful.

Yes. I don't do watching projects, but I've been fast forwarding to Punk's PPV matches beginning at Wrestlemania 25. I'm up to Fatal 4 Way (June 2010)*. A big regret is missing out on his week-to-week promos in his feuds (definitely Hardy, but especially for what comes at the turn of the calendar). I just don't have the patience to find and queue up promos in order on youtube. Easier to just flip on the PPVs on the network. Two things I've learned:

1. I haaaaaate Matt Striker

2. There's a lot of Ted Dibiase and Kofi Kingston I'm fast forwarding to

*Haven't watched Punk's match yet, but did see the pre-match promo. Kane, who is not involved in the match, is upset because he found The Undertaker in a vegetative state?? Whaaaa (I realize you could say this about most Kane/Undertaker/sports entertainment storylines).

178. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 31, 2014 at 12:52 AM (#4870343)

They have trouble fitting seven matches on a four hour show. That seems...optimistic.

it's only 9, though. and the diva's match isn't really a full match, so it's really 8 and a half. and you can always push one of the spotfests to the preshow. so, it's really only 7 and a half. that seems doable. and if you want to do something fun, you could let orton beat ryback in 20 seconds. that takes you down to 6 and a half and i doubt anyone'll shed a tear. you'll be lucky to get 20 minutes out of lesner, so now you can write it up at an even 6. and i don't think anyone wants to watch more than 10 minutes of reigns/cena, so now you're down to 5 and a half. hell, you could fit that into the first 2 hours and set up an ironman match between bryan and ambrose leading into the main event.

1. I haaaaaate Matt Striker

you're a terrible human being. striker's story is amazing. he was a teacher in new york who called in sick to get on monday night raw on short notice to do angle's gold medal challenge. the school district found out and fired him and he parlayed the resulting press into a fulltime spot in WWE.

also, he used to have a gimmick where he was called muscles marinara.

179. aberg Posted: December 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4870456)

Striker is in the news right now, too, because he's doing the English version of Wrestle Kingdom 9 with JR. This will be my first live Japanese wrestling PPV. I have wanted someone to start redubbing NJPW in English for years, so this is kind of a dream come true for me. I have also enjoyed Striker on Lucha Underground, though I can definitely see how he could be grating to some people. Next to Vampiro, he comes off like Gordon Solie.

180. Mark Edward Posted: December 31, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4870498)

I've watched WrestleMania 5 & WrestleWar '89 over the holiday.

- WM 5 is incredibly bloated and probably could've been cut down by an hour or so, but I still liked it. Certainly better than the bloated mess of WM 4. Hogan-Savage might be Hogan's best (American) match. There's a surprisingly good Rude-Warrior match. Rockers-Twin Towers and Strike Force-Brain Busters are fun too, especially Martel's heel turn and a sick-looking spike piledriver on Tito. The Brother Love-Morton Downey Jr.-Piper segment is even weirdly entertaining.

- WrestleWar 1989 is basically a one-match show (though Hayes-Luger is pretty good). I think I like this Flair-Steamboat match more than Chi-Town Rumble (haven't seen their Clash match yet). Funk's heel turn on Flair was so, so good.

181. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 31, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4870596)

Hogan-Savage is a terrific main event. Quality-wise, it might be the best main event of the 20th century Manias. I'd probably go Hogan-Savage, HBK-Bret, Hogan-Warrior, Rock-Austin I (which I might under-appreciate because II is so much better).

Savage was so ahead of his time as a worker. He's probably the best Warrior match as well.

182. rconn23 Posted: December 31, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4870617)

Savage was so ahead of his time as a worker. He's probably the best Warrior match as well."
'
Evidence of how great Savage is can be found in the Summerslam '89 tag match with Hogan and Beefcake against Savage and ... gulp, Zeus. Talk about having to carry a match.

I'd still go with HBK-Bret as the best WrestleMania main event of the 20th century. That Hogan-Savage match deserved more than the customary leg drop ending.

183. aberg Posted: December 31, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4870648)

I'd still go with HBK-Bret as the best WrestleMania main event of the 20th century. That Hogan-Savage match deserved more than the customary leg drop ending.

It's weird that early in the era of the predictable "finishing move" was the one in which wrestlers were the most devoted to honoring those moves. I know the idea of finishing moves goes back to Ed Lewis, but it seems to me that matches ended in a wider variety of ways in the 60s and 70s and the idea of a predictable finisher became more normal in the 80s. Now, wrestlers kind of have secondary finishers, some have a submission and a slam, and sometimes it takes more than one finisher.

184. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 31, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4870723)

I wish secondary finishers were used more often to end TV matches and that primaries were more protected in PPVs. When even the main guys get kicks outs off their moves, it removes tension. When everyone knows the first RKO isn't beating Cena, what's the point? One of the things that helped Mania 30's main event worked so well is that Bryan's running knee had actually been used as a one-and-done up to that point, so when Batista went to steal the pin the near-fall was very believable despite everyone knowing Bryan was winning that match.

They could also build more tension by borrowing some things from Japan and have the occasional quick match between top guys. As much of a unique experience as the Summerslam Cena-Lesnar match was, what if it had just ended after that first F5? That would instantly make that move a lot scarier. As it is, the thing might end matches at a lower rate than the Zigzag.

185. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: December 31, 2014 at 10:29 PM (#4870732)

They could also build more tension by borrowing some things from Japan and have the occasional quick match between top guys. As much of a unique experience as the Summerslam Cena-Lesnar match was, what if it had just ended after that first F5? That would instantly make that move a lot scarier. As it is, the thing might end matches at a lower rate than the Zigzag.

[178]:

if you want to do something fun, you could let orton beat ryback in 20 seconds

186. NJ in NJ Posted: December 31, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4870734)

[184, 185] In the recent '08-'09 PPVS I've watched, that happens. Basically, if it's not one of the traditional Big 4 (5?) PPVs, a single finisher is often enough to end the match. It's at the big matches that you get more kickouts. I would like to see more pins after just regular offense though. As it stands, guys over for pins off a body slam even though that's almost never in the kayfabe history worked.

187. smileyy Posted: January 01, 2015 at 01:23 PM (#4870909)

There's nothing...better, uh huh, better...than the match where both guys have hit their finisher, so you know you're just waiting for some sort of dramatic small package rollup finish. DRAMA!

188. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 01, 2015 at 04:14 PM (#4871082)

I was pleased that they actually protected Ziggler this week against Rusev. That's a match he was losing, even with a belt, a few weeks ago. And now that Daniel Bryan's in the Rumble, he's gotta win it, right? The way the Rumble got crapped all over last year for him not being in it? A Royal Rumble with Rollins cashing in on Brock or Cena and Bryan winning the Rumble might blow up the internet for reals.

189. NJ in NJ Posted: January 02, 2015 at 11:17 AM (#4871672)

Interesting moment during the Orton-Cena match at Hell in a Cell '09 where Cena takes a backbreaker from Orton and what appears to be a blade drops out of Cena's hand/wristwrap. Was Cena really going to blade? This match was solid and I will admit I was surprised to see Orton go over clean. However, because their match at Breaking Point '09 was so great, I wasn't as into this one.

EDIT: The Hell in a Cell '09 crowd is one I will always remember for all the clearly audible yelling/screaming I could hear from kids in the front row. Some of my favorites were "Nobody likes you Orton!" as Randy used the Cell to elevate himself to stomp on Cena, "Shut up, Ted, no one likes you!" as Dibiase Jr. stood posing/#### talking in the middle of the ring, and "Get the sledgehammer" yelled about 29,000 times as HHH, who was locked out of the Cell by legacy, struggled to find a way in.

190. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 02, 2015 at 11:30 AM (#4871679)

Anyone planning on catching this weekend's big NJPW Kingdom show? I haven't watched any new puro in years (since Misawa's untimely death, approximately) but I'm interested in see this show for the potential crossover aspects with Jeff Jarrett's new promotion.

191. aberg Posted: January 02, 2015 at 12:21 PM (#4871709)

Anyone planning on catching this weekend's big NJPW Kingdom show? I haven't watched any new puro in years (since Misawa's untimely death, approximately) but I'm interested in see this show for the potential crossover aspects with Jeff Jarrett's new promotion.

I'm watching it through the GFW broadcast with Jim Ross doing the call. I have been watching a lot of Tanahashi on youtube to get ready for it and the match with Okada could be a classic.

192. Conor Posted: January 02, 2015 at 12:21 PM (#4871710)

I was pleased that they actually protected Ziggler this week against Rusev. That's a match he was losing, even with a belt, a few weeks ago. And now that Daniel Bryan's in the Rumble, he's gotta win it, right? The way the Rumble got crapped all over last year for him not being in it? A Royal Rumble with Rollins cashing in on Brock or Cena and Bryan winning the Rumble might blow up the internet for reals.

Meltzer this week said the plan is still for Reigns, which I'm having a hard time buying. If Bryan is in the match and he doesn't win, the reaction will probably be even worse than it was last year. If you had Rollins cash in on either Cena or Lesnar, like you suggested, then a Bryan/Rollins match would likely be incredible. And if they still wanted to push Reigns hard, they could probably book the finish to Cena-Lesnar in a way that doesn't kill Brock, and go with Brock-Reigns at Mania, just with no title? The other way to look at it though is that if you're going to go with the plan of having Lesnar hold the title and miss all the ppvs, then you may as well take it all the way to mania, right?

193. aberg Posted: January 02, 2015 at 12:58 PM (#4871731)

Is there a way to do Cena-Reigns that makes sense? That's probably the best rub Reigns could get outside of the title.

194. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 02, 2015 at 12:58 PM (#4871732)

I think they should go Bryan-Rollins (cashing on Lesnar) for the title, and Reigns-Lesnar as an extra match. Just have Lesnar start destroying people out of anger at the Authority over allowing the cash in and trying to get to Rollins. Authority is evil so they don't really care. Then Reigns can play the hero a couple of times to set up the match.

A no-BS Rollins-Bryan main event has instant classic written all over it.

195. Conor Posted: January 02, 2015 at 01:14 PM (#4871738)

Is there a way to do Cena-Reigns that makes sense? That's probably the best rub Reigns could get outside of the title.

You can push it as the passing of the torch type thing, I guess? I'd think you'd want the title on the line to really sell that angle though. Somewhat similar to Warrior-Hogan at Mania 6, at least in theory.

If they thought Bryan was the guy (which they don't), I think a Bryan-Lesnar match would be the way to go. Lesnar as the unbeatable monster, Bryan as the ultimate underdog. You'd expect them to have an awesome match. And Rollins still has the case, so you could transition from that into something with Rollins and Bryan. Even if Bryan hadn't gotten hurt last year, his title run got off to a bad start because he was working Kane. Obviously Bryan and Rollins would have some incredible matches.

196. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 02, 2015 at 01:37 PM (#4871747)

Is there a way to do Cena-Reigns that makes sense? That's probably the best rub Reigns could get outside of the title.

Until 21 hours later, when Cena shows up on Raw holding up the new WWEShop.com baby tee, telling jokes about who gets ignored by the elephants at the circus because they don't have any nuts, and making it clear that all of his matches take place on top of a glass ceiling.

197. aberg Posted: January 02, 2015 at 01:37 PM (#4871748)

If they thought Bryan was the guy (which they don't), I think a Bryan-Lesnar match would be the way to go. Lesnar as the unbeatable monster, Bryan as the ultimate underdog.

That story is so natural that I have thought that would be the natural way to go since the day after last year's WM. I still think it is the most likely outcome.

198. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 02, 2015 at 01:40 PM (#4871751)

Bryan was supposedly going to be the one murder death killed by Lesnar at Summerslam, I'm not sure what they planned for him after that.

199. Conor Posted: January 02, 2015 at 01:49 PM (#4871758)

Yeah from everything I've read Bryan was going to fill the Cena role at Summerslam, at which point my guess is he would have been moved down the card unless the fans absolutely forced their hand. Cena can handle a beating like that (as a character I mean) a lot more than Bryan, I think, just since he is always positioned at the top.

If Bryan has no lingering issues from his injury, I really think it's possible it will end up being positive for his long term career. I could really see him ending up with the title at Mania and I'm not sure that would have been the case if he was working all of last year.

200. NJ in NJ Posted: January 02, 2015 at 04:05 PM (#4871833)

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