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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2688 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: wrestling

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1401. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: March 27, 2016 at 09:17 PM (#5182767)

I think everyone realizes that Wrestlemania can't possibly top the Aztec Warfare match and the reveal of Matanza Cueto on Lucha Underground last week.

you say that now, but when wrestlmania ends with lesnar, orton, shane and reigns standing over a bloody and broken undertaker, you'll pop just like all the rest of us.

1402. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 27, 2016 at 09:42 PM (#5182775)

No I won't, I ain't watching it :)

1403. aberg Posted: March 28, 2016 at 11:23 AM (#5182937)

I'm going to Wrestlemania and I have pretty good tickets (9 rows up on the equivalent of the 10 yard line). I'm going with my wife and a friend of ours. We went last year, too, and none of us are quite as excited as we were last year, but there is plenty to look forward to. Part of it is that being there for Wrestlemania weekend is fun in its own right. The pub crawls before the event are a bizarre, unique cultural experiment. We're also going to ROH Supercard on Friday night. I have never been able to see an ROH show live, so I'm excited about that, even if it means missing Nakamura debut in NXT. Lastly, I think both the Ambrose-Lesnar and Styles-Jericho matches should be outstanding. Even Reigns-HHH should be a really good match.

1404. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: April 01, 2016 at 05:43 PM (#5186378)

Time passed. In the middle of last year, Sasha, Becky, and Charlotte all got called up to the WWE’s main roster, a sign of management’s approval and belief in their star potential. Bayley, who stayed behind in NXT, was perceived as the weakest of the four. She consistently was booked to lose to them and never clinched the title. That kicked off a storyline in which the Bayley character started taking herself more seriously. The character realized that she wasn’t content with looking up to her colleagues. She needed to assert herself if she wanted to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the best.

link

1405. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 01, 2016 at 11:16 PM (#5186484)

Well, I don't think anything this weekend is topping Nakamura v Zayn: Dawn of Forearms.

1406. NJ in NJ Posted: April 02, 2016 at 12:31 AM (#5186499)

I was much lower on Nakamura-Zayn than everyone on my twitter timeline. Good match, but my mind wasn't blown like everyone else's appeared to be. I thought it was sloppy in portions, but am interested to see what, if anything, they do with Nakamura.

Bayley-Asuka suffered because of card placement, but I thought they had a really good match.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I hated all the stoppage in Joe-Finn. The match is on the network, so there's no rating concern. I guess maybe there's a health concern, but in the history of wrestling/any contact sport, the amount of bleeding Joe was doing didn't seem excessive. In addition, he also seemed like he wanted to just work through the blood. If that's the case, doesn't someone in the back have to make the call to just let it go? I guess there are issues with diseases that may be transmitted or something...

1407. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 02, 2016 at 03:55 PM (#5186711)

Apparently with Joe the cut was above his eye and the blood was draining into it, and that was the concern.

Nakamura-Zayn was great, but I worry that they'll ask him to tone it way down when he moves up to the main roster. If he doesn't, it really limits the number of people he can reasonably work with (even though that set of people would make for some awesome matches).

I can't imagine WM will come close to matching the NXT card for pure wrestling. But I guess it won't matter when Shane jumps off the Texas Stadium jumbotron and falls 200 feet onto the cage, or whatever they have planned.

1408. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 05:32 PM (#5187203)

If the latest betting odds pan out, this Mania is probably not going to go over well.

1409. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 07:28 PM (#5187270)

Truly the most credible IC champ

1410. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 07:57 PM (#5187282)

Odds are 2-for-2. Baffling booking for Styles/Jericho. I guess it goes to Extreme Rules?

1411. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 08:14 PM (#5187289)

3-for-3. I guess the plan is to have heels win all night so that Roman gets a face pop?

1412. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 08:23 PM (#5187290)

That was a lot of fun.

1413. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 08:45 PM (#5187305)

Brock-Dean was good, but too short to really take off.

1414. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 08:49 PM (#5187314)

I know it's not real...but does Dean really need to tongue kiss the barb wire and completely expose the gimmick? And yet another disappointing Dean PPV match.

1415. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 08:54 PM (#5187329)

I don't understand how they are going to fill 150 minutes more with 4 matches.

1416. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:22 PM (#5187355)

It's Heelmania! Good match, though.

1417. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:26 PM (#5187361)

Women's match was really good. As a Sasha fan I was holding my breath for the entire second half. Can't wait for her to eventually get the belt.

1418. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:27 PM (#5187363)

I don't understand how they are going to fill 150 minutes more with 4 matches.

Might be a Reign of Terror 45 minutes HHH '06 match.

1419. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:32 PM (#5187371)

Women's match was really good. As a Sasha fan I was holding my breath for the entire second half. Can't wait for her to eventually get the belt.

Wouldn't be surprised if they do it on Raw tomorrow night.

1420. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:36 PM (#5187374)

I don't understand how they are going to fill 150 minutes more with 4 matches.

Oh, I forgot the Undertaker's entrance.

1421. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:43 PM (#5187381)

And isn't the Rock doing one of his 2 hour promos?

1422. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 09:58 PM (#5187393)

If you had told me 15 years ago, that in 15 years Shane McMahon would be able to pull out a Van Terminator and RVD would likely die attempting to do so...I wouldn't have believed you.

1423. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 10:17 PM (#5187411)

This show is proof that you can fill a show with good wrestling and still have it suck.

1424. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 10:23 PM (#5187415)

First match to have the odds wrong, Cena was the favorite.

1425. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 10:32 PM (#5187420)

The big face pop near the end of the night is for Baron Corbin?

1426. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 10:38 PM (#5187432)

Time enough for the Cowboys cheerleaders and The Rock with a flamethrower, I guess.

1427. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 10:42 PM (#5187439)

And isn't the Rock doing one of his 2 hour ~~promos~~ entrances?

1428. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:01 PM (#5187459)

Wyatt burial.

1429. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:01 PM (#5187460)

The big face pop near the end of the night is for ~~Baron Corbin~~ John Cena?

1430. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:04 PM (#5187463)

Great promo by Bray though.

1431. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:10 PM (#5187465)

Wait, Thulsa-Steph might have just saved the show.

1432. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:13 PM (#5187471)

That HHH -Stephanie entrance was so over the top and stupid and was everything that is right with wrestling.

1433. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:45 PM (#5187497)

Crappy main event.

1434. NJ in NJ Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:46 PM (#5187498)

Reigns-HHH was...not good and the finish was particularly terrible.

1435. Hot Wheeling American Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:47 PM (#5187499)

I regret the decision to spend my evening on this

1436. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:52 PM (#5187506)

1. Women's match
2. IC Title match
3. Taker-Shane
4. Styles-Jericho
5. Dean-Brock
6. New Day-LoN
7. Battle Royal
8. HHH-Roman

I at least thought HHH-Roman would be a good match. Just boring.

Really bad Wrestlemania. It really seemed like an f you to the fans. If you're not cheering Roman, you get no one to cheer for.

1437. Eric P. Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:55 PM (#5187509)

Just how far did they turn down the crowd mics for the main event? I jacked my volume up to the point that the announcers were deafening me and could just barely make out a few dismissive chants at that point to go along with the muted boos and cheers. There was some Nakamura love, a brief 'Randy Savage', American Alpha singalong, ditto Bayley...what an amusing, catastrophic clusterfvck.

1438. Hot Wheeling American Posted: April 03, 2016 at 11:58 PM (#5187512)

1. Women's match
2. IC Title match
3. Taker-Shane
4. Styles-Jericho
5. Dean-Brock
6. New Day-LoN
7. Battle Royal
8. HHH-Roman

Taker-Shane at #3 seems insane and yet I don't know what I'd put above it. I like battle royals, this one was quick and Kane didn't win. So...that?

1439. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 12:01 AM (#5187515)

None of the other matches were all that good and Taker-Shane had a big moment. That's all it takes on this card.

1440. NJ in NJ Posted: April 04, 2016 at 12:06 AM (#5187518)

[1436] I would move the Battle Royal up a bit, but that about sums up my view of the PPV.

1441. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 08:04 AM (#5187548)

The pre-show matches were mostly mediocre. The women probably had the best match there as well, if only for Brie ending her career with a really great transition to the Yes lock.

1442. NJ in NJ Posted: April 04, 2016 at 09:54 AM (#5187597)

[1441] Agreed. That YES lock transition got a pop from me and the match as a whole was actually kind of fun.

1443. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: April 04, 2016 at 10:17 AM (#5187606)

Once the pre-match promo video was shown, it seemed like the stakes in the Shane/'Taker match got chucked aside and it got called like Shane was just another guy on the roster. All the times The Authority has shown up to gloat on the ramp after Bryan or Reigns losses and they're AWOL for this one? With control of RAW on the line? How in the world does Vince not come down to congratulate The Undertaker and end up eating a chokeslam? Crazy-ass bump, though. It looked like there was an airbag under the desk Shane hit. After his impact, the desktop slowly sank like something underneath it was deflating.

We had the home theater fired up and the muting of the ambient sound during the main event was ridiculous. It sounded like they were wrestling underwater.

And, sadly, The Rock has become Where Show Momentum Goes To Die.

1444. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 04, 2016 at 10:31 AM (#5187615)

Crazy-ass bump, though. It looked like there was an airbag under the desk Shane hit. After his impact, the desktop slowly sank like something underneath it was deflating.

Saw a gif of it this morning. Pretty clearly a crash pad. It wasn't as pronounced as the big ones they use in Hollywood for obvious reasons but it kept him from breaking anything.

1445. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 04, 2016 at 10:56 AM (#5187650)

I'm not sure how much an airbag can really help if there is a solid object on top of it. Sure, it helps spread SOME of the impact properly, but hitting that table top from up there has GOT to be painful/dangerous.
I still don't understand what that means in terms of storyline...everything remains the same?

So that's the end of the Wyatt family, right?
6-second loss by their big guy, and a 30-second shorthanded ass-whooping by a legend and an injured guy.
Why should anyone ever care again about them?

Also, way to undercut the LoN by having 3 ancient/out-of-shape guys thrash you shorthanded in 30 seconds.
So which of the the 3(4?) of the LoN competes in the tag-team matches now? Or can they rotate through them?

1446. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 04, 2016 at 12:02 PM (#5187718)

What a mess. I can't believe this was the WM that they chose to run almost 5 hours (7 hours, if you stuck with it through the pre-show). Maybe they thought that if they exhausted people with enough boring stuff they could kill the crowd to the point where they would lose interest in booing Roman. Cheers to the Texas fans for keeping enough in the tank to let him have it through the whole endless slog of a match.

The women's match and the ladder match were great. Everything else made absolutely no sense. This was the most tone-deaf Wrestlemania in 32 years. The WWE clearly demonstrated that they have no interest at all in what the fans might want, and they're going to push forward with the current story lines no matter what. Compare the ending this year to the last two WM - the crazy crowd reactions to Bryan and Rollins winning. They had to mute the crowd and shoot Roman in close-up in the ring because of all the boos and unhappiness. That's just a joke. I think maybe they're actively ####### with us now, just to see how far they can push it knowing they're still really the only game in town.

What can you possibly do with Reigns now? Who do you put him into a program with, if the goal is to get people to cheer for him? Anyone who fights him immediately becomes the crowd favorite. There is no heel on the roster who could make people want Reigns to win. He's going to keep winning and continue to get booed and #### on by crowd after crowd, week after week. If you take the belt off of him, people aren't going to cheer him as the plucky underdog trying to get it back.

They should just call up Nakamura, have him come out and beat up Reigns for about 20 minutes, and put the belt on him. Of everyone this weekend, he looked the most like the guy who should be at the top of the company.

1447. Mark Edward Posted: April 04, 2016 at 12:10 PM (#5187733)

Nakamura's entrance and the subsequent Zayn-Nakamura match were my favorite things that happened this weekend. That and American Alpha winning the NXT tag belts.

1448. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 04, 2016 at 12:16 PM (#5187753)

Nakamura's entrance and the subsequent Zayn-Nakamura match were my favorite things that happened this weekend.

It's hard to believe that the same company that thought Zayn/Nakamura was a good idea also thought that most of the WM card was also a good idea.

1449. NJ in NJ Posted: April 04, 2016 at 01:05 PM (#5187836)

[1448] "Yeah."-HHH

This was my first exposure to Nakamura. I had a tough time getting past how skinny fat he was. * Ducks *

1450. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 01:43 PM (#5187877)

Nakamura's an odd-looking dude in general, his build is weird, and he always wears a mouth guard which just emphasizes how unusual he looks. He's top level at pretty much everything else. His new music is ok, but I wish they could have kept his god-tier NJPW theme.

I thought the Zayn match was the best WWE mens match since the Cena-Owens set. It did seem to be booked for people already familiar with both men (I've only seen his last two WK matches, two matches from last year's G1, and an RoH match against Owens/Steen), as Zayn countered some of Nakamura's spots before we had seen them.

1451. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: April 04, 2016 at 01:59 PM (#5187900)

I don't even know how you get Nakamura's amazing slow-burn psychology to work in 7-minute Monday night matches.

1452. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 03:00 PM (#5187966)

That's probably part of why he's in NXT first. He kept the same character from NJPW, so I guess he's only there for acclimating to the WWE style.

1453. smileyy Posted: April 04, 2016 at 03:01 PM (#5187967)

I'm not sure how much an airbag can really help if there is a solid object on top of it. Sure, it helps spread SOME of the impact properly, but hitting that table top from up there has GOT to be painful/dangerous.

Yes, and much less so with the pad. Think crumple zones on cars. More of the impact is transmitted into the pad, and not redirected back into Shane's body.

1454. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 04, 2016 at 03:08 PM (#5187987)

I have to give credit to JBL for his selling of the buildup to the jump.

1455. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: April 04, 2016 at 04:03 PM (#5188051)

What can you possibly do with Reigns now? Who do you put him into a program with, if the goal is to get people to cheer for him? Anyone who fights him immediately becomes the crowd favorite. There is no heel on the roster who could make people want Reigns to win. He's going to keep winning and continue to get booed and #### on by crowd after crowd, week after week. If you take the belt off of him, people aren't going to cheer him as the plucky underdog trying to get it back.

you need someone who's actually horrible, rather than just storyline horrible.

greg hardy's available.

1456. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: April 04, 2016 at 04:22 PM (#5188083)

Turn him. Align him with The Authority. Rollins comes back and turns after seeing he's been jilted by HHH and Steph. Everybody's been dying to cheer for Seth, anyway.

I realize this is not highly original.

1457. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 04, 2016 at 04:49 PM (#5188125)

Turn him. Align him with The Authority. Rollins comes back and turns after seeing he's been jilted by HHH and Steph. Everybody's been dying to cheer for Seth, anyway.

There's lots of things you can do with Reigns if you turn him heel. But apparently that's not in the plans, and by all accounts WWE sees him as the company's next big face not just now, but for the next 3-5 years at least. They've basically invested the last 18 months of programming with the almost singular goal of building him into the new Cena by putting him over convincingly in every program he's been involved with.

There are plenty of potential programs if you don't mind the crowd booing the hell out of him. And maybe that's what they'll do - they'll just keep cutting the crowd noise out in the production truck and shouldering forward with the hope that, eventually, people's opinions will change.

1458. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 04, 2016 at 05:58 PM (#5188202)

Per my quick count he's 9-7 on PPVs since returning form hernia surgery. I'd disagree that he's been put over convincingly.

1459. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 04, 2016 at 06:48 PM (#5188227)

9-8 (depending on how you count the 3 matches at Survivor Series). Since the start of 2015:

* Won the Rumble
* Beat the crowd favorite and former champion Daniel Bryan, who took to the mic to tell everyone how wonderful Roman was
* Was on the verge of winning at WM, but for the MITB cash-in
* Beat the Big Show in a throwaway
* Lost a 4-way match to Rollins, without being pinned
* Positioned himself to win the MITB, but lost because of Wyatt interference
* Spent the next 4 PPVs fighting the Wyatts - lost once via interference, lost once in a tag match without getting pinned, and won twice (including the blowoff in Hell in the Cell that ended the feud)
* Won 2 matches at Survivor Series to become champion, then lost by MITB cash-in
* Lost the rematch with Sheamus after interference from the Authority, Rusev, and del Rio
* Lost the Rumble after being out for most of the match via interference, then storming back as if nothing had happened and making it to the very end
* Won the triple threat for #1 contender
* Won at WM last night

He does lose matches, but it's never that he loses - it's that other people interfere to stop him just as he's on the verge of winning. Or his partner gets pinned. Or one of his co-competitors gets pinned. The only other guy on the roster to get that level of treatment is Lesnar. Even Cena eats the occasional clean pin.

I was reading the other day that, within NXT/WWE, it's been over 4 years since he was pinned clean in a singles match. The last guy to beat him: Adam Rose (Leo Kruger at the time).

1460. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 04, 2016 at 07:03 PM (#5188233)

So he's treated like a top WWE face. Did face Austin ever lose cleanly? face Rock? face Taker? Hogan? Warrior? Obviously he's not in the same stratosphere as those guys, but people seem to be acting like this booking is something new.

Ironically, despite what the prevailing opinion seems to be, Cena is the one who actually does go out and show ass and take a clean(or cleanish) loss.

ETA: I'd also disagree with your representation of WM31. Reigns and Lesnar were both laid out when Rollins came in, and Reigns wound up eating the pin.

1461. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 04, 2016 at 09:18 PM (#5188300)

They had to mute the crowd and shoot Roman in close-up in the ring because of all the boos and unhappiness. That's just a joke.

Tonight on Raw: Reigns' entrance and promo draw tumultuous boos, as a fan holds up a "DON'T MUTE OUR VOICES! WE PAY 4 THIS" sign directly behind him.

1462. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 09:23 PM (#5188304)

Corbin is somewhat close to ready. Crews is not. Weird call-ups.

Not sure who wins the 4-way tonight.

1463. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: April 04, 2016 at 10:15 PM (#5188344)

face rollins v. heel owens would be a great way to spend the next year.

1464. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 04, 2016 at 11:10 PM (#5188382)

Really weak Raw until the last half hour. Fatal 4-way was great.

1465. MHS Posted: April 05, 2016 at 04:32 PM (#5189048)

I have to say I think I have very different taste in my wrestling than a lot of folks on the internet and here on primer. My assessment of the WM matches was very different that Chokeland Bill in 1436. Polar opposites actually.
HHH vs Roman Reigns: Wrestlemania 32 -4.25 stars.
Ryback vs Calisto Wrestlemania 32 - 3.5 stars.
Banks vs Lynch vs Flair: Wrestlemania 32 - 3.25 stars. need a rewatch
Jericho vs Styles: Wrestlemania 32 - 3 stars.
7 person ladder match:Wrestlemania 32 - 2.5 Stars.
New Day vs League of Nation:Wrestlemania 32 - 2.5 stars
Undertaker vs Shane Mcmahaon:Wrestlemania 32 - 2.25 stars.
Brock vs Dean: Wrestlemania 32 - 2 star.
Usos vs Dudleys: Wrestlemania 32 - 1 stars.

1466. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 05, 2016 at 05:16 PM (#5189098)

That is very different from how I would have rated them, it's true. Probably something like:

IC ladder match - 4.25 stars (though knowing that they'd take the title off Ryder the very next night, this probably comes down a bit)
Women's title - 4 stars (really good stuff, and I didn't mind Charlotte winning as much as a lot of other people seemed to)
Jericho/Styles - 3 stars (it was sloppy in places, and I think they could both do better)
UT/Shane - 2.25/2.5 stars (+1000 for the guts to jump off a cage, -1000 for the pointlessness of having Shane come back, point out all the stuff that sucks about WWE now that he could fix if given the chance, then having him lose anyway to maintain the status quo)
Brock/Dean - 2/2.25 stars (Brock seems bored since dropping the title - he either needs to be put front and center back in the title chase, or just let him go, or make him a UT-like special attraction who only comes back 1-2 times a year to beat people up)
New Day/LoN - 2 stars (what a waste of the most over team on the roster)
Battle Royale - 2 stars (at least Shaq didn't win; here's hoping they do more with Corbin than they did when Cesaro won it)
Ryback/Calisto - 2 stars (why? Specifically, why Ryback?)
Usos/Dudleys - 1.5 stars (why? Specifically, just why?)
HHH/Roman - 1.5 stars (could be a little higher, but it gets dinged for the company continuing to shove this program down everyone's throats, and dinged again for muting the crowd reaction - that's just bush league stuff)

1467. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 05, 2016 at 06:47 PM (#5189163)

Women's Title - 3.75-4
IC Title - 3.5
Taker-Shane - 2.5
Styles-Jericho - 2.5
New Day - 2.5 (bumped this up a bit)
Total Divas - 2.25
Dean-Brock - 2
Battle Royal - 2
Kalisto-Ryback - 2
HHH-Roman - 2
Usos - 1

Nakamura-Zayn - 4.5
Tag Titles - 3.5
Asuka-Bailey - 3.25-3.5 (I thought they went against character with underdog Bailey controlling most of the action against dominant Asuka).
Finn-Joe - 3.25 (I liked their previous match more, too much start-stop because of the blood).
Corbin-Aries - 2.75

On another NXT note, I know they just promoted a ton of people, but Joe needs to go to the main roster. I've never seen his RoH heyday and only one TNA match, but I believe his offense more than just about anybody in WWE. He just has the aura of a killer.

1468. aberg Posted: April 05, 2016 at 06:53 PM (#5189164)

I was able to attend Wrestlemania, so my grades might be a little different from the presentation on TV. I also do letter grades for matches. Here's how I saw them:

Reigns-HHH- C+
Undertaker-Shane- A-
Brock-Ambrose- B-
Rock-Rwan- B (for the whole segment)
Charlotte-Becky-Sasha- A-
Jericho-Styles- A
LON-New Day- B+
IC Title- B
The Andre- C

My full review is here: Wrestlemania review

I thought the last 3 matches of Takeover were as good or better than anything at Mania. I also had a really good time at ROH on Friday night. Jay Lethal-Lio Rush was great and Young Bucks-MCMG was every bit the spectacle you'd hope. Also, Virgil tried to hit on my wife in the beer line, so that's a story that will never get old.

1469. aberg Posted: April 05, 2016 at 07:07 PM (#5189170)

On another NXT note, I know they just promoted a ton of people, but Joe needs to go to the main roster. I've never seen his RoH heyday and only one TNA match, but I believe his offense more than just about anybody in WWE. He just has the aura of a killer.

1470. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 05, 2016 at 07:57 PM (#5189198)

I was talking to a friend this weekend about how Joe and Punk got famous together during their time in ROH, then Punk went to WWE, did the ECW angle, got over as a heel, did the straight edge angle, did the pipe bomb, had a run as a babyface champion, had a longer run as a heel champion, took time off, came back to the company as a top tier babyface outside of the title picture, left the company, had a falling out with WWE, and started an MMA career. Meanwhile, Joe languished in TNA.

I never understood why the WWE seemed to have no interest in him, back when he was killing it in TNA 7-8 years ago. TNA had a world of other talent, but Joe always stood out. He could have worked as a face or a heel. He wasn't "too small" (the argument they used against so many of the indie guys). He was a big guy who could move around the ring (and dive out of it), he worked stiff and crisp, and he had enough charisma without saying much that the crowd would have bought him as an ass-kicking machine. Plus, they love their Samoans.

Of course, TNA wasted a lot of opportunities with him as well - it's still hard to believe, as much as they were passing the title around, that he only got one reign at the top. So who knows, maybe there was backstage stuff that didn't hit some of the other guys that was keeping Joe down. I know he pissed some people off at some point by calling out Scott Hall for being a drunk (accurate). Or maybe WWE thought they already had a guy like Joe in Umaga, and so they didn't need another one.

1471. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: April 05, 2016 at 10:47 PM (#5189310)

I was glad to see Cesaro come back & be put in the World Title picture. It will be interesting to see how the Nxt call ups affect the roster

1472. MHS Posted: April 06, 2016 at 09:44 AM (#5189513)

I want to talk about two matches that I liked, that other didn't. the main event and the ryback vs chalets match. Here are my match notes on both and I'm curious if people disagree with my what I said or just think others things over shadowed them.

I will also point out, I try and separate match criticism from booking issues. So Man's booking comments in 1466 around RR vs HHH don't really play into the match.
Ryback vs Calisto
The power spots were very cool. Delayed superplex, walking up the stairs gorilla slam, running michinoko driver. Ryback was a great bully, talking smack while puttin it on him. A+ heal work. Callisto bumped liked a pinball. Setup to the finish was very organic, with the inadvertent pulling off of the turnbuckle cover. Very character and in-match consistent.

HHH vs Roman Reigns
Worked hard out of gate to get HHH over as heel, with Steph on the mic. Then contradicted by HHH holding ropes open for Roman, after a great over the top bump. Roman shine was great. Awesome selling of low blow, followed by crotch work after the low blow with 2 inverted atomic drops. Crowd killing Roman, at each hope spot. After every transitions Roman's selling was great. Loved the HHH neck breaker on the floor, and a really cool hanging knee drop. Roman, working really hard. Both selling exhaustion. Cool spear on the floor, which was visually impressive. Great heel work by Steph, breaking up a pin then strolling into the ring like she owned it, wait she does!. Roman selling injured shoulder on spear, and HHH quickly goes for arm-bar submission twice. Same power bomb counter to escape took away from it. Very slow pace. Crowd did pop big for pedigree counter on backdrop to the floor. And popped big for Steph spear and pedigree kickout. He does gets a winners pop on the cover. Good stuff.

A couple things took away. Using the same escape twice on the arm bar back to back. HHH schizophrenic heel/face dynamic took away at times. Specifically, inviting Roman back into the ring after a big bump to the floor, and getting in the two coolest spots of the match with the neck breaker and the knee drop, with Roman getting nothing even close to as cool in. My biggest criticism, is one, that has kept me from getting completely behind Roman as a worker: His offense. Very reliant on super punches, clothes lines and spears. His work in total during the match was very good, but his offense is a problem for me. Not much variety, and his three goto’s are all very similar. He needs a driver or a suplex, outside of the samoan drop, something more than what he currently is using.

1473. Hot Wheeling American Posted: April 06, 2016 at 09:55 AM (#5189518)

I knew I read that HHH/Reigns write-up somewhere else. PWO/BBTF cross-over!!

1474. MHS Posted: April 06, 2016 at 10:22 AM (#5189544)

No comment.

1475. aberg Posted: April 06, 2016 at 11:08 AM (#5189631)

I never understood why the WWE seemed to have no interest in him, back when he was killing it in TNA 7-8 years ago. TNA had a world of other talent, but Joe always stood out. He could have worked as a face or a heel. He wasn't "too small" (the argument they used against so many of the indie guys). He was a big guy who could move around the ring (and dive out of it), he worked stiff and crisp, and he had enough charisma without saying much that the crowd would have bought him as an ass-kicking machine. Plus, they love their Samoans.

I agree. Joe wasn't wasting his time in TNA- he certainly had memorable feuds with Angle and Styles- but it would be hard to say that he maximized his time by being there instead of WWE. Imagine him working with Punk, Bryan, Cena, and even guys lower on the card like Ziggler, Del Rio, Morrison, etc.

1476. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 06, 2016 at 11:14 AM (#5189648)

Rumor is the WWE has an agreement with Ricochet/Prince Puma to start late-summer. Tough loss for Lucha Underground and New Japan, the WWE is really ramping up its efforts to undermine any viable alternative promotions in pro-wrestling.

1477. aberg Posted: April 06, 2016 at 11:51 AM (#5189708)

Well, we're going to have to find a new wrestler to all agree is the best non-WWE guy in north America. Richochet is AWESOME.

1478. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 06, 2016 at 11:56 AM (#5189717)

Matanza seemed like a pretty good worker from what I've seen of him without the mask. Great moveset, good balance, elite athleticism (for obvious reasons), but bland as can be. The new character is going to give him all sorts of chances to shine. I love when a wrestler embraces a new gimmick and lets it enhance his performance; Ricky Banderas never struck me as anything special, but Mil Muertes is one of the top guys in the sport right now, with several outstanding matches to his credit over the past year.

1479. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 06, 2016 at 08:06 PM (#5190300)

I watched Roman/HHH again. My problem with the match is that their styles don't complement each other. HHH loves to work a slow, methodical match where he tries to smother the babyface's hope. This is fine when working with someone like Daniel Bryan where the comeback spots are high energy and have a sustained momentum to them. Roman's spots are generally slow and methodical as well. Lots of big, slow strikes. Lots of walking around. He has a few high energy moves, but no real extended bursts. So you have two guys working at pretty much the same pace, you don't have one guy trying to control the pace at the expense of the other. This makes the match boring and also makes it look like they don't have all that much animosity. This was a feud built around two guys trying to kill each other, but the match didn't have any of that urgency.

HHH and Steph both actually do good work, and Roman has his high points. It's just very poorly paced. A long, slow match on a show already approaching 5 hours.

1480. NJ in NJ Posted: April 06, 2016 at 08:41 PM (#5190323)

I thought the match was fine but I hated the finish with every fiber of my being. Back to back Superman punches followed by a spear is just about the least exciting way to end a match ever. Roman going over was this inevitable thing that, in my heart, I hated, and the ending amplified everything wrong with the inevitability of Reigns for me.

1481. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 07, 2016 at 08:53 AM (#5190534)

Back to back Superman punches followed by a spear is just about the least exciting way to end a match ever.

Is there some reason that a wrestler can't steal his opponent's finishing move?
Imagine the surprise if Roman had busted out a Pedigree on HHH to finish him off...sort of an eff-you to HHH.

1482. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 07, 2016 at 08:56 AM (#5190539)

Why that would be gimmick infringement!

1483. aberg Posted: April 07, 2016 at 11:22 AM (#5190695)

I watched Roman/HHH again. My problem with the match is that their styles don't complement each other. HHH loves to work a slow, methodical match where he tries to smother the babyface's hope. This is fine when working with someone like Daniel Bryan where the comeback spots are high energy and have a sustained momentum to them. Roman's spots are generally slow and methodical as well. Lots of big, slow strikes. Lots of walking around. He has a few high energy moves, but no real extended bursts. So you have two guys working at pretty much the same pace, you don't have one guy trying to control the pace at the expense of the other. This makes the match boring and also makes it look like they don't have all that much animosity. This was a feud built around two guys trying to kill each other, but the match didn't have any of that urgency.

HHH and Steph both actually do good work, and Roman has his high points. It's just very poorly paced. A long, slow match on a show already approaching 5 hours.

Well said. I also don't particularly like the spear as a finisher for anyone. Not sure we need a 3rd guy doing the Pedigree, but even a powerbomb would be better.

1484. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 07, 2016 at 11:31 AM (#5190709)

My biggest complaint with HHH/Reigns was you had that the huge moment where Stephanie ate the spear...and then nothing? HHH doesn't lose it on Reigns, Steph doesn't get stretchered out(She even has the wherewithall to grab the sledgehammer 3 minutes later?) Like it popped the crowd, but it seemed to be immediately forgotten. If you don't want to dwell on a man accidentally hitting a woman, then don't run the spot in the first place.

It made me wonder if it was a botch and HHH was supposed to throw Steph in the way of the spear.

1485. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 07, 2016 at 11:37 AM (#5190720)

Not sure we need a 3rd guy doing the Pedigree, but even a powerbomb would be better.

I really, really hope that Rollins comes back with a new finisher.

1486. NJ in NJ Posted: April 07, 2016 at 03:08 PM (#5190963)

[1485] like the ####### awesome one he already had? Not sure how "the curb stomp" was too violent or whatever but Roman's "drive by" isn't.

1487. MHS Posted: April 07, 2016 at 03:20 PM (#5190974)

It looks pretty boss.

1488. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 07, 2016 at 04:33 PM (#5191079)

The Curb Stomp was amazing, and fit him perfectly. I wish they had just renamed it, like they did with Cena's finisher.

1489. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 07, 2016 at 04:56 PM (#5191101)

I don't think it was just the name. It was also A. a move that kids can easily replicate and hurt each other with and B. banned around the same time as the concussion lawsuits

To be clear, I disagree with banning the move.

1490. aberg Posted: April 07, 2016 at 05:31 PM (#5191124)

The Curb Stomp was amazing, and fit him perfectly. I wish they had just renamed it, like they did with Cena's finisher.

Attitude Stomp or Curb Adjustment?

1491. NJ in NJ Posted: April 09, 2016 at 06:15 AM (#5192333)

It was also A. a move that kids can easily replicate and hurt each other with and B. banned around the same time as the concussion lawsuits

Almost every match also has a punch a guy ten times in the head spot though.

1492. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 09, 2016 at 07:02 AM (#5192337)

In real life fights I use lots of chops to the chest, punctuated by the occasional robust "WOOO!"

1493. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: April 09, 2016 at 01:17 PM (#5192429)

In real life fights I use lots of chops to the chest, punctuated by the occasional robust "WOOO!"

I'm a lazy fatass, so when I get jumped on the streets I prefer to hit the rear chinlock.

1494. Hot Wheeling American Posted: April 11, 2016 at 10:54 AM (#5193402)

Moving terrible wrestling talk from OTP to here:

I hate myself for knowing exactly why you would hate yourself for watching this. Starcade 94 was a perfect example of the damage Hulk Hogan did to the promotion, from the top of the card (Hogan against his good personal friend and a midcarder than nobody cared about) to the bottom (the aforementioned Vader vs Duggan bout - Vader was the top heel in the promotion before Hogan arrived and feared around the wrestling world, once Hogan was there Vader was literally relegated to the opening match of the biggest PPV of the year). And in the middle, nothing but Hogan cronies (The Nasty Boys, Earthquake/Avalanche, even Mr. T). The difference in match quality between this show and the one the previous year is pretty damn stark.

Yep, I knew what I was getting myself into (which makes it worse)? I needed to scratch the itch of seeing just how bad a Starrcade main event of 1994 Hogan v. The Butcher could be. The card:

National Anthem by Aaron Tippin wearing a Tampa Bay Lightning jersey

Long recap of Randy Savage saying he's either gonna shake Hogan's hand or...slap him in the face

The first of several looks at that weekend's PWI awards. Can you believe it, Hogan won wrestler of the year.

Duggan v. Vader - Duggan looked surprisingly not terrible, but they couldn't even put Vader over that strongly. Went a loonnnnggg twelve minutes (this would be a theme).

Das Wunderkind v. Levesque - opened with an interminable amount of restholds. Picked up when Levesque showed some fire and stomped the #### out of Wright. Wright was only 18??

Johnny B. Badd v. Arn Anderson - I read afterwards that Honky Tonk quit the company that morning or the day before. Could always do worse than throwing Arn in there as a late replacement. However, if you can also believe this, WCW didn't handle his absence that well, playing da Tonk's entrance music with Tony and Heenan saying they have no idea where he is. This match was even announced in the preview of the card that opened the show.

Nasty Boys v. Harlem Heat - after going a lonnnnggggg 17 minutes, this ends in a DQ. The Nastys also won the PWI Tag Team of the Year award. *emoji that scratches its chin*

Mr. T v. Kevin Sullivan - no small victory for the audience as this mercifully comes in under 4 minutes. T wore a shirt with vertical black and white stripes, so he looked like a referee.

Sting v. Avalanche - 15 minutes only to end in a DQ. IIRC, Sting was attacked by the Faces of Fear after the match, but Hogan came down for the save, even though he had the fight of his life in a few minutes. Sting won the PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year and I'm not sure how that's different from Wrestler of the Year.

Hogan v. Butcher - what's there to say? Back rakes, a fight in the stand that understandably drew the attention of most of the audience, Hogan fending off the Faces of Fear with gentle chair-taps to their...faces, Savage coming down to help Hogan and then flex a lot while Tony calls them the Mega Powers.

Hogan celebrates his victory in the locker room with best friends Johnny B. Badd and Jerry Sags, but is thankfully interrupted by Vader.

Final note: Heenan was terrrrrrible. Was he ever consistently good in WCW?

1495. /muteself 57i66135 Posted: April 14, 2016 at 08:22 PM (#5197085)

wrestling sucks

1496. MHS Posted: April 14, 2016 at 08:35 PM (#5197087)

Raw was awesome!!

1497. smileyy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:35 PM (#5197547)

Heenan, like most of the other WWF retreads, was....not good...in WCW. Without a stable to manage, his heel schtick didn't really work.

Who *were* the guys who made their name in the WWF guys who made a successful transition to WCW in that time? It seemed like Hall and Nash were fine, until they decided to stop wrestling. I remember Curt Hennig being an effective heel. Who else?

1498. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:52 PM (#5197573)

Hulk Hogan, unless you consider him as already having been made when he debuted in WW(W)F.

I dunno, maybe Meng? Does Sid Vicious count? You could also include Jimmy Hart and Miss Elizabeth and Gene Okerlund on the sidelines. Whoever qualifies or doesn't, it ain't a long list.

1499. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:57 PM (#5197580)

Does Sid Vicious count?

Why would he count?

1500. SouthSideRyan Posted: April 15, 2016 at 04:02 PM (#5197724)

Guess it depends on what you mean by "made" and "successful"

Vincent was probably better off?
Konann annoyed the piss out of me but he was over in WCW after debuting in WWF
Jeff Jarrett was pushed higher but they were dying and he still was never very over.

i think the only guy who was really a successful import chronologically after Hall and Nash was Raven, and then he chose to walk out in his contract rather than stick around

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