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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2570 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

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   1601. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 10, 2016 at 07:11 AM (#5240655)
Why did nobody tell me "Stephanie McMahon" is an anagram for "The Macho Man Penis"?
   1602. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 10, 2016 at 08:32 AM (#5240667)
I was waiting for it to come up in her autobiography.
   1603. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 14, 2016 at 04:57 PM (#5243623)
Well, I'm going to Money in the Bank for my first ever live show. The card looks really strong, hopefully it lives up to it.
   1604. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 17, 2016 at 09:59 AM (#5245710)
Jerry "The King" Lawler (and his girlfriend) arrested for domestic abuse.

Living in Mississippi and Tennessee I saw plenty of Lawler and USWA stuff on TV and in arenas. I alternately loathed and enjoyed Lawler's work over years, plus he called me an ####### once and I always smile thinking about that.
   1605. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: June 17, 2016 at 10:23 AM (#5245749)
27, huh? She's actually a little bit long in the tooth by Jerry's usual standards.
   1606. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 17, 2016 at 11:25 AM (#5245852)
Jerry knows the ground rules - half your age minus 7, right?
   1607. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 17, 2016 at 10:01 PM (#5246501)
I think for Jerry it's half your age divided by 7.
   1608. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 20, 2016 at 12:02 AM (#5247705)
Las Vegas loves Dean Ambrose and Becky Lynch.

Live vs PPV, it's really noticeable how much the crowd affects the match. We didn't care about any match except the big three, so everything else was dull. But the top three matches were fire.
   1609. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 21, 2016 at 03:08 PM (#5248947)
Roman was just suspended for violating the wellness policy.
   1610. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 21, 2016 at 04:28 PM (#5249027)
(:::huge crowd cheer erupts for the wellness policy:::)
   1611. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: June 21, 2016 at 04:53 PM (#5249045)
The IWC dirt guys are saying that PEDS suspension are usually longer...so they're speculating that he probably got caught having a toke.
   1612. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 21, 2016 at 05:35 PM (#5249077)
The policy itself is online at http://corporate.wwe.com/what-we-do/talent/abuse-and-drug-testing-policy

Anything that isn't marijuana or alcohol is a 30 day suspension for first violation. Marijuana and alcohol are just fines.
   1613. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 22, 2016 at 12:19 PM (#5249663)
If they thought the crowd reactions were bad before this, just wait until he returns. The chants are just going to be brutal.
   1614. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: June 22, 2016 at 01:06 PM (#5249723)
I wonder if having the Triple Threat this soon and on a "minor" PPV is a prelude to the guys being split up in the draft? They say they want to keep the brands equal...but you've gotta figure that a show with all three of the Shield guys is clearly the "A" show.
   1615. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 22, 2016 at 07:03 PM (#5250169)
They say they want to keep the brands equal...but you've gotta figure that a show with all three of the Shield guys is clearly the "A" show.

Maybe now you put Roman on the "B" show and try to take some of the weight off of pushing him forward as the face of the company. It's interesting that part of the speculation around the title change was that Ambrose was starting to outdraw Reigns at house shows. (This was before the whole drug test thing came to light, of course - I don't think there's any question that that was the #1 reason why things played out the way that they did.)

I will say, if they wanted to create some interest in the product, the draft is a pretty good way to go. I assume that they'll always push RAW as the "A" show, but with both shows on the same network I'm sure they'll also be pressured to split the roster fairly evenly.
   1616. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: June 22, 2016 at 07:45 PM (#5250189)
I was very surprised to see that news about Ambrose drawing so well on the road. I had figured they put the belt on him to keep him from being an afterthought in a Shield Triple Threat.
   1617. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 22, 2016 at 08:39 PM (#5250217)
just book reigns like lesnar. have him show up from time to time, destroy everything, then go back to minnesota until the next time you need him.
   1618. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: July 03, 2016 at 11:43 AM (#5257683)
I think with the suspension, Roman is (for the moment) not a good pick for top babyface of the company or babyface/some hate him & a heel turn wouldn't be a bad idea
I'm surprised The Miz is holding his own so well as IC champ heel
I sure hope New day and the club don't get split by the draft
   1619. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 05, 2016 at 11:24 AM (#5258567)
   1620. All In The Guetterman, Looking Up At The Stargell Posted: July 10, 2016 at 09:37 AM (#5262287)
Al Snow was always one of my favorite wrestlers and now he's probably my favorite shoot interview. Dude knows how to tell a story. Here's his jobbing for Bruiser Brody story; it's fantastic.
   1621. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 19, 2016 at 10:20 PM (#5267990)
Raw ended up with a notably better roster than Smackdown
   1622. NJ in NJ Posted: July 20, 2016 at 12:47 AM (#5268037)
I assume WWE's thinking is/was that AJ and Cena are SO over they'll be enough to get people to watch Smackdown because, man...that roster is terrible.
   1623. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 20, 2016 at 06:40 AM (#5268052)
Lucha Underground finishes their second season tonight. Ultima Lucha Dos! Pentagon Jr seeks revenge against the monster Matanza Cueto and Rey Misterio Jr faces super-athletic pinball Prince Puma at the top of this two hour episode.

Viva Lucha!
   1624. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 20, 2016 at 09:12 AM (#5268075)
I assume WWE's thinking is/was that AJ and Cena are SO over they'll be enough to get people to watch Smackdown because, man...that roster is terrible.

i would set up styles to run the show the way edge and bradshaw used to. give him a title, have him lord it over everyone else's heads and build the show around people trying to take it away from him.


i guess that's a little thin, but smackdown usually thrives when storylines are loose.
   1625. aberg Posted: July 20, 2016 at 12:07 PM (#5268198)
I assume WWE's thinking is/was that AJ and Cena are SO over they'll be enough to get people to watch Smackdown because, man...that roster is terrible.


I was surprised that, after all the talk of SD being the "working" show, Owens, Zayn, Cesaro, Balor, and Neville all ended up on Raw. Those are maybe the five best working non-main eventers drafted who could get to main event status.

i guess that's a little thin, but smackdown usually thrives when storylines are loose.


I'm interested to see what they do with call ups from NXT going forward. SD is begging for a few things, including a top heel tag team. The Revival would fit on their roster very well.

Lucha Underground finishes their second season tonight. Ultima Lucha Dos! Pentagon Jr seeks revenge against the monster Matanza Cueto and Rey Misterio Jr faces super-athletic pinball Prince Puma at the top of this two hour episode.


I can't wait to watch Puma-Rey. Does Rey have one more classic in him, 20 years after he and Eddy Guerrero crushed it in WCW? I hope so.
   1626. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: July 20, 2016 at 12:10 PM (#5268200)
I'm a big fan of the Bullet Club so I was very disappointed to see "The Club" get split up by having Guns & Gallows go to RAW & AJ go to Smackdown. I don't buy merchandise but I don't see where the WWE was heavily marketing the Club & selling tshirts. I don't understand AJ's heel turn if he's not heading the Club
   1627. aberg Posted: July 20, 2016 at 12:39 PM (#5268220)
I'm a big fan of the Bullet Club so I was very disappointed to see "The Club" get split up by having Guns & Gallows go to RAW & AJ go to Smackdown. I don't buy merchandise but I don't see where the WWE was heavily marketing the Club & selling tshirts. I don't understand AJ's heel turn if he's not heading the Club


Note that Balor is with Anderson and Gallows now.
   1628. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM (#5268226)
There's a reasonable chance they put Gallows and Anderson with Balor, who has his own history with the Club. There's the temptation to keep Finn face to take full advantage of the possible merch, but I think Seth and KO have proven that heels can sell lots of stuff, and by all accounts Finn/Devitt was better as a heel in NJPW.

AJ has been better as a heel, so it still makes a little sense.

Smackdown does have a better main event group. Raw is a little thin there, with really just Roman and Seth. Presumably Balor will be treated that way at first, and maybe KO gets moved up (though maybe not with his really low draft position).

Raw has way better women/tags/mid-card. Smackdown women's division is in rough shape, poor Becky. I think Alexa is really good, but not necessarily as a wrestler.
   1629. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: July 20, 2016 at 02:01 PM (#5268309)

Note that Balor is with Anderson and Gallows now.


Since I mainly watch WWE & some of the more recently televised New Japan, my experience with Balor is limited & I have not seen him as Devitt in NJPW

However, I hope he is put with Guns & Gallows

Moving Braun away from Bray Wyatt is strange but they could always have Harper come back when he is ready
   1630. Man o' Schwar Posted: July 20, 2016 at 02:22 PM (#5268334)
I was surprised that, after all the talk of SD being the "working" show, Owens, Zayn, Cesaro, Balor, and Neville all ended up on Raw. Those are maybe the five best working non-main eventers drafted who could get to main event status.

Yeah, this part made no sense. Here was your chance to take guys who are generally getting lost in the shuffle and put them in a position to move up a bit. Instead, put them underneath what is sure to be the Rollins and Reigns show (with Lesnar showing up every 6 months). I guess they all go back into fighting for the midcard belt. I'd have put Orton on RAW as the wily veteran at the top of the card. It's kind of a waste sticking Orton and Cena on the same show.

Plus, the whole thing was underwhelming - I expected much more spectacle for the grand brand extension Part II. Where's the opening where you show that everyone is in the building, sitting in the back watching the draft, with reaction shots after people got drafted? Where's the "impromptu" brawl between the new RAW guys and the new Smackdown guys? It felt like just another show, not an event.

Raw has way better women/tags/mid-card. Smackdown women's division is in rough shape, poor Becky. I think Alexa is really good, but not necessarily as a wrestler.

I can't even say that Smackdown drafted weak now, but with an eye toward the future (by loading up on NXT people, for example). The top 5 picks were fine. After that, it's just kind of a mess. I guess Becky gets the Smackdown women's belt by default - Natalya, Naomi, Alexa, Eva Marie, Carmella. That's a channel-changing lineup.

For all of the talk about how USA was asking them to treat the two shows equally, it's pretty clear that the WWE still sees RAW at the top.
   1631. aberg Posted: July 20, 2016 at 05:20 PM (#5268522)
For all of the talk about how USA was asking them to treat the two shows equally, it's pretty clear that the WWE still sees RAW at the top.


If, over the next six months, SD adds Revival, Asuka, one of Joe/Nakamura, and one other upper-midcard act from NXT or elsewhere (Roode? Aries? Ricochet? Cody Rhodes?), I think the roster looks plenty full for a 2 hour show. Plus, there's room to dream on Corbin, Alpha, Wyatt, Kalisto, Crews as being upwardly mobile. Even Ziggler is the perpetual main eventer in waiting.
   1632. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 20, 2016 at 11:01 PM (#5268707)
Between Kalisto's good lucha thing and Lesnar's bad PED thing, maybe it's time to push Sin Cara as the new beast incarnate.
   1633. aberg Posted: July 21, 2016 at 11:21 AM (#5268924)
Very short Ultima Lucha Dos summary:

-I was transfixed by Mysterio-Puma. Thought they told a great student/teacher story where Puma dominated most of the action but couldn't quite put him away. Probably also a good way to use Mysterio, who might not look as sharp offensively for 20 minutes as he once did, though I was shocked at how good he looked for the length of that match based on how bad he was in his last few WWE matches. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rematch at UL3 where Puma wins.

-Like last year, Puma wrestled the best match and Pentagon had the most compelling narrative. I loved the vignettes in which he became "Pentagon Dark" and thought his aggression against Matanza was pitch perfect. Even the dirty win and Pentagon turning on Vampiro were exciting because it makes me excited to see what happens next.

-Both Ivelisse-Taya and Black Lotus-Dragon Azteca were good matches, but I didn't like that they both had non-finishes on the biggest show of the year. Catrina's interference was awesome and I can't wait to see her wrestle, but I would've preferred a finish in the other match before Pentagon ransacked everyone. Black Lotus can wrestle.

-The Trios match was mostly goofy and a spectacle, but that's why it's on the card. It was fun and I liked the finish. I also think the heels have become a really fun trios team with their 80s hair metal gimmick.
   1634. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 24, 2016 at 11:26 PM (#5270896)
Really good PPV tonight. Zayn-Owens was amazing, Shield triple-threat also very good, great Jericho/Orton segment, other matches all solid.
   1635. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: July 24, 2016 at 11:54 PM (#5270908)
Did Orton get a personality implant while he was out? He was actually engaging and funny, which...wow.
   1636. aberg Posted: July 25, 2016 at 01:29 PM (#5271277)
Ambrose winning is going to help him get even more over. There appeared to be some reluctance to embrace him because he felt like he was just holding the belt until Roman got back. Not only winning, but pinning Roman clean, makes it clear that he's more than just a placeholder transitional champion.

Overall, I really liked the PPV, as Bill said before, Zayn-Owens was the show stealer. It also had a good balance of storyline (Ambrose going over in a good match, Bayley surprise), lighthearted entertainment (Orton + Jericho, Enzo), and lower stakes matches that were entertaining without being emotionally draining. We make fun of popcorn matches, but they serve a need.
   1637. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 25, 2016 at 08:44 PM (#5271675)
Hmm, judging from Finn's first match on Raw I wonder if his ring style will work better for me than it does in NXT. He's noticeably smaller and faster than the other guys, which helps him stand out a little bit more.
   1638. Man o' Schwar Posted: July 25, 2016 at 09:11 PM (#5271685)
Great PPV. Even the slow moments were pretty decent. I hope they keep Owens/Zayn apart for awhile now. That was a fabulous match (and maybe MOTY in the WWE this year so far), and it told a good story. You'd lose some of that if they just keep coming out and fighting each other every week.

And Enzo Amore... man, that's crazy levels of over, for an obviously crazy man. I think that crowd would have followed him off a cliff if he led them outside and asked them to.

Not only winning, but pinning Roman clean, makes it clear that he's more than just a placeholder transitional champion.

Watching the Usos hoist Ambrose on their shoulders at the end of the show, you have to feel that Vince has officially soured on Roman. That just felt like an extra slap in the face after he took the clean pin.

Did Orton get a personality implant while he was out? He was actually engaging and funny, which...wow.

Yeah, it was weird. It's felt like he was just going through the motions for a couple of years before he got hurt (he never seemed invested in that whole Authority thing at all). Maybe taking 9 months off and spending some time at home let him reset his mind space and actually miss being in the ring.
   1639. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 25, 2016 at 10:52 PM (#5271743)
Probably the best 1-on-1 women's match I've seen on the main roster. BOSS!
   1640. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 25, 2016 at 11:05 PM (#5271748)
I guess Finn got Roman's push for his birthday.
   1641. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 25, 2016 at 11:14 PM (#5271758)
The first night of new Raw was really good, best episode I can remember in a long time. They changed a bunch of stuff, and it mostly all worked. And the show was built around wrestling. Glad I decided to watch.

What does Smackdown have to counter this? AJ-Cena in a PPV-level match?
   1642. NJ in NJ Posted: July 26, 2016 at 01:38 AM (#5271811)
The first night of New RAW was everything I ever wanted.

-As someone who has long found Finn's in-ring work in NXT to be overrated...I have no idea why, but thought he looked GREAT tonight.
-The return of the squash match!!! The Braun one was meh, but I loved the Nia Jax one. Made her look like a legitimate threat and an #######.
-Lots of actual wrestling!
-Sasha's Undertaker moment was absolutely terrifying, but other than that, great match. I was relatively low on Charlotte at the time of her call-up, but she was a fantastic Women's Champ and she was GREAT tonight. This match and last night's Owens-Zayn match both told outstanding stories. The little touch with the "You will NEVER beat me!" at the end was outstanding.
   1643. aberg Posted: July 26, 2016 at 11:56 AM (#5272041)
Maybe WWE needs to cool it with the topez for a while. Zayn, Big E, and Sasha all came within inches of broken necks in the last 48 hours. The fact that they even had that many opportunities to hurt themselves means that they are doing the moves too much anyway. The topez con giro is a crazy move and should feel spectacular when it happens. We probably saw 10 of them over 2 nights.

That's a small nitpick, though. I was floored by both Sasha-Charlotte and Owens-Zayn. Raw as a whole was very fun to watch and it's reassuring to know that they at least capable of that kind of show.
   1644. Man o' Schwar Posted: July 26, 2016 at 02:53 PM (#5272270)
They changed a bunch of stuff, and it mostly all worked.

Production-wise too - the in-ring post match interviews, different camera angles, less of the crazy shaky cam stuff. It seemed like an entirely different show after the opening.

Balor looked great - that chest kick into the corner to set up his finisher looked better than I ever remember seeing it in NXT. Just brutal. Demon Balor vs. Rollins at SS should be a classic.

Charlotte looked better than she has in months. Maybe it helps that after 6+ months of requiring outside interference to help win, she wrestled a match where most of it was without someone at ringside providing a timely distraction.

I have no idea if they can keep this going, but this was the best RAW in a couple of years, probably since the whole Bryan build toward WM30 stuff.

Plus, I'm really interested to see now what they've done with Smackdown. I want to watch, which is something I haven't really said about WWE product in quite some time.
   1645. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 26, 2016 at 09:56 PM (#5272626)
Smackdown was the definitive template for crappy wrestling television.

- Put most of the good guys you have in one match rather than spreading them out
- Re-do a PPV match with the reverse result
- Introduce a bunch of new characters at once instead of giving them individual spotlights
- Hold off the big debut everyone is waiting for until next week
- Commentary spends all of their time talking over each other and not about the action
- Promote it as the wrestling show, but have it dominated by talking segments
- Time your show so that you go to break right as the main event starts.
- After returning from that break, go to another one five minutes late.
- Put Dolph Ziggler in the main event of Summerslam.

Some segments were ok, but this was a crappy show.
   1646. aberg Posted: July 27, 2016 at 03:27 PM (#5273272)
- Put most of the good guys you have in one match rather than spreading them out


Fair, but it was really over two matches and those two matches took up 30-40% of the show.

- Re-do a PPV match with the reverse result


PPV match clearly wasn't the blow off and I really enjoyed the rematch. If I had a critique, it would be to question why they're wrestling with no belt available to them.

- Introduce a bunch of new characters at once instead of giving them individual spotlights
- Hold off the big debut everyone is waiting for until next week


These seem inconsistent. If introducing new guys without building hype and building hype for a future introduction are BOTH bad things, then I don't know what to say. I'm very excited about Shelton returning. If JoMo follows him to SD with some of the lesser rumored returnees, the roster looks much more full.

- Promote it as the wrestling show, but have it dominated by talking segments


Maybe, but the talking was mostly short and sweet. I thought those backstage vignettes from the 6-pack guys helped to redefine their characters just enough to make me more interested in Dolph and Bray at least.

- Time your show so that you go to break right as the main event starts.
- After returning from that break, go to another one five minutes late.


I've never liked how they do that either. On the positive side, at least Raw and SD both cut WAY down on the "here's what happened earlier in the show" montages. Those have always driven me crazy and I would be very grateful if they just let the announcers do the reset.

- Put Dolph Ziggler in the main event of Summerslam.


YMMV. I am looking forward to that match.



   1647. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 27, 2016 at 05:34 PM (#5273381)
These seem inconsistent. If introducing new guys without building hype and building hype for a future introduction are BOTH bad things, then I don't know what to say. I'm very excited about Shelton returning. If JoMo follows him to SD with some of the lesser rumored returnees, the roster looks much more full.


This is specifically about A. the women's segment, where 2 women were introduced and 2 were reintroduced by getting to talk for 30 seconds and then getting cut off by the next person in line and B. American Alpha not having a match on the show.

The women's segment was a trainwreck and did no one any favors beyond Eva Marie's new entrance "theme". It had no story purpose other than to announce their presence. The segment would have been a lot better if (I can't believe I'm saying this) only Eva Marie had come out. You can hold off Alexa and Carmella for later. They weren't drafted on USA so casuals wouldn't necessarily know about them anyway. Doing it the way they did marginalized the newcomers. Eva's entrance gets more than enough heat to mean you don't need to cut others off for her. Especially since Alexa can take the same role as Eva and do it much, much better.

If American Alpha wasn't going to be on the show, they shouldn't have been out with everyone at the beginning. Having them out there makes it stand out that they weren't in the battle royal that was specifically open to everyone, and makes you expect them to be out later. Obviously they weren't going to be given the same push as Finn, but AA was the number one NXT pick on Smackdown. Now they look like they aren't important enough (or don't care enough?) to be in the battle royal or debut in the "pilot" of the new show.

Maybe, but the talking was mostly short and sweet. I thought those backstage vignettes from the 6-pack guys helped to redefine their characters just enough to make me more interested in Dolph and Bray at least.


Woof. I don't think it was short and sweet. The main event promos were fine. But add the opening, Miz TV, Heath Slater and the women's segment. The women's segment I covered. Miz TV should have just started with Orton. No complaints about Slater, except that I don't care about Rhyno.

YMMV. I am looking forward to that match.


It should be a good match. Ziggler has been marginalized too long for him to be a believable main-eventer. He just had a lengthy feud with Corbin where he lost almost every match. We're supposed to buy this push after he's been cut off every other time?

Ziggler is obvious fodder for Ambrose, and that's not the best direction for the 2nd biggest show of the year.
   1648. aberg Posted: July 27, 2016 at 06:01 PM (#5273398)
The women's segment was a trainwreck and did no one any favors beyond Eva Marie's new entrance "theme". It had no story purpose other than to announce their presence. The segment would have been a lot better if (I can't believe I'm saying this) only Eva Marie had come out. You can hold off Alexa and Carmella for later. They weren't drafted on USA so casuals wouldn't necessarily know about them anyway. Doing it the way they did marginalized the newcomers. Eva's entrance gets more than enough heat to mean you don't need to cut others off for her. Especially since Alexa can take the same role as Eva and do it much, much better.


Ok, I agree with your point about the post-match women's promo-off. That helped no one. I get the point of introducing everyone to new viewers, but it could've been done better in vignettes or gradually.

Ziggler is obvious fodder for Ambrose, and that's not the best direction for the 2nd biggest show of the year.


Again, fair point. I guess I'm more interested in the fact that they're elevating Ziggler at this specific moment because it jibes with the popular idea that SD is going to be used to make stars out of guys who have been overlooked. Even if that doesn't mean he wins, it gets him out of his rut and it could be one of his better matches in a long time. I thought his little promo was the best of the bunch and it reengaged me with his character.
   1649. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 27, 2016 at 07:51 PM (#5273449)
i wonder if, deliberately or not, there's some sabotage going on w/r/t smackdown. for the last decade smackdown has been viewed as the better show by diehard wrestling fans and having them constantly hold it (and more recently NXT) up as being better than WWE's flagship can't be good for business.

if they can produce a raw that is as consistently engaging and as entertaining as smackdown has been (think: edge, punk, guerrero), there's a huge amount of room for growth.
   1650. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 27, 2016 at 10:12 PM (#5273495)
You don't have to sabotage shows that are already drawing worse than the flagship.
   1651. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 27, 2016 at 10:38 PM (#5273507)
It can be argued that Vince thinks he's stacking the deck for Smackdown. He put his biggest names on that show (Cena, Bryan, Orton), gave it the two most "classic" belts, more big guys, more talking segments (all supposedly better for the casual audience). Even the surprising winner of the main event is a long-established, popular guy. All pretty "safe". Raw is the bigger brand and can experiment more.
   1652. aberg Posted: July 28, 2016 at 11:35 AM (#5273766)
You don't have to sabotage shows that are already drawing worse than the flagship.


Right. If Raw is borrowing ideas that worked on Smackdown and NXT, that's not sabotage, that's just reflective self-improvement.
   1653. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 28, 2016 at 02:15 PM (#5274007)
Has anyone else been watching the Cruiserweight Classic?
   1654. aberg Posted: July 28, 2016 at 02:36 PM (#5274044)
Has anyone else been watching the Cruiserweight Classic?


Yes. Love the sport-like presentation. Also fun that it's not easy to tell who is going to win.
   1655. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 28, 2016 at 02:51 PM (#5274058)
They've done a good job giving the losers a chance to get over. Raul Mendoza in particular earned a good bit of the crowd he didn't have at the start of the match. There hasn't really be a standout match so far, but as the better workers move through we'll probably get some real good stuff in the later rounds.
   1656. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: August 09, 2016 at 11:18 AM (#5281160)
A J. Styles released from WWE






a Joey Styles, that is...
   1657. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 10, 2016 at 07:01 PM (#5282212)
Smackdown has been better than Raw the last two weeks. Part of this is Talking Smack, a completely needless post-game show that is great because of the likability of the two hosts.
   1658. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 10, 2016 at 09:50 PM (#5282308)
Kota Ibushi and Cedric Alexander had one of the best near-fall sequences I've seen in a long time.
   1659. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 10, 2016 at 10:09 PM (#5282328)
The end of this CWC episode was one of those moments when wrestling is great.
   1660. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 17, 2016 at 08:53 PM (#5286212)
Paige and Del Rio both suspended. Along with Reigns, has there ever been a comparable set of suspensions in such a short period of time?
   1661. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 17, 2016 at 09:08 PM (#5286217)
The whole Paige/Del Rio thing has been weird. They were (are?) dating, but got drafted to different shows. Then Paige kind of disappeared, and now they're both suspended. I suspect there's more to this story than a simple wellness violation.

As for a group of suspensions close together, in spring of 2012 they suspended Mysterio and Orton for wellness violations, and Jericho for that incident with the Brazilian flag. But yeah, it does seem like they're willing to shoot a little higher these days than in the past.

   1662. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: August 17, 2016 at 09:16 PM (#5286219)
Paige is hurt, with no timetable in sight. There's apparently concerns she has career threatening nerve damage.

As to the suspensions, the swell of people who think that they were suspended as punishment for dating is disturbing. A lot of people think WWE would risk 2 very big lawsuits over a relatively minor issue. The rumor has been that there's a fear that Del Rio is a bad influence on Paige, so pending results this test could confirm that I guess.
   1663. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 17, 2016 at 09:20 PM (#5286222)
I didn't realize that Paige had been hurt. I had seen the reports that she was unhappy, and allusions to some "bizarre" behavior. I assumed she was acting out. That's too bad, given her youth and talent. I hope she's able to come back.
   1664. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 17, 2016 at 11:04 PM (#5286246)
Paige and Del Rio both suspended. Along with Reigns, has there ever been a comparable set of suspensions in such a short period of time?
trivia time:
@CMPunk 31 May 2012
My last three Wrestlemania opponents are currently suspended. I'm a curse!



all 3 are former WWE champions, two were suspended for drug violations and one was suspended for wiping his ass with a brazilian flag.
   1665. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 18, 2016 at 01:00 AM (#5286265)
I'm guessing it's this:

As for a group of suspensions close together, in spring of 2012 they suspended Mysterio and Orton for wellness violations, and Jericho for that incident with the Brazilian flag. But yeah, it does seem like they're willing to shoot a little higher these days than in the past.
   1666. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 18, 2016 at 11:27 AM (#5286394)
I'm guessing it's this:
yeah, that'll do it.

oops
   1667. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 18, 2016 at 12:37 PM (#5286435)
[1662] There are pretty huge pockets of the internet that think everything they don't like is a plot by Vince and Kevin Dunn to destroy the product. All it takes is one rumor from a blog and it becomes fact.
   1668. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 18, 2016 at 03:14 PM (#5286547)
Eva Marie has also been suspended. Gee, darn.
   1669. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 18, 2016 at 03:47 PM (#5286581)
Eva has been incredible since the split. Legit bummed about this.
   1670. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 18, 2016 at 03:54 PM (#5286589)
The booking has been great, the problem is that whenever they get to the payoff it will probably fall flat because she's so bad. If you had a legitimate performer getting the same gimmick, it would be so much better.
   1671. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: August 18, 2016 at 05:58 PM (#5286725)
since the brand split, Eva Marie has not wrestled a full match or said a word. i guess for miss all PED everything, that counts as incredible.

1670- when she wrestled Asuka in NXT a few months back, she looked like she had improved from abysmal to bad.
   1672. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: August 18, 2016 at 11:07 PM (#5286863)
. The rumor has been that there's a fear that Del Rio is a bad influence on Paige, so pending results this test could confirm that I guess.

In what way?

   1673. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2016 at 11:00 AM (#5288081)
just watched nxt brooklyn. a few thoughts:

1, shinsuke nakamura's entrance gave me a seizure.


that is all.
   1674. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 22, 2016 at 11:06 AM (#5288090)
Since the UFC is just a pro-wrestling organization that does shoots, this is probably the appropriate place to mention that the rematch between Conor McGregor and Nate Diaz Saturday was probably the Match of the Year to-date. Conor McGregor is MMA's Mickey Walker, an exciting, dynamic fighter who will happily step up above his weight class if he perceives that's where the money is. That was a hell of a performance against a much bigger man.
   1675. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2016 at 11:08 AM (#5288095)
also, ciampa and gargano should use total elimination as their finisher.

and someone ought to bring back booker t's axe kick.

   1676. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 22, 2016 at 04:07 PM (#5288317)
Anyone have any thoughts on Lesnar going all illegal MMA moves on Orton? Pissed at Orton for his comments after his PED tests? Legit going all in on the storyline and Orton ok'd it?
   1677. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 22, 2016 at 04:24 PM (#5288334)
Supposedly that was the plan all along, they just weren't planning on THAT much blood.

I thought Summerslam mostly sucked. It started well and peaked with the great Cena match, but there were still almost three hours left at that point. The Balor/Rollins match got good in the second half, but was too slow at the start and it really emphasized the crappy crowd. Those two guys should not be working a slow match. Lesnar/Orton was just the same old Lesnar match with a new confusing finish.

NXT was pretty good. The tag match was great. Joe/Nakamura seemed like it should have been better than it was.
   1678. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 22, 2016 at 05:04 PM (#5288364)
I think what Lesnar did was planned, but I also think he put a little extra gusto into it given Orton's comments. It sure didn't look like his plan was to do just enough damage to cause a little bleeding.

I had to work most of the weekend, so I missed NXT and Summerslam live. I put on Summerslam last night and found myself fast-forwarding through quite a bit. I did like the Styles/Cena match, and I'm really interested to see if this is the end of the feud (in which case I'm shocked that Styles went over clean), or if there's still more to come with the inevitable triumph of Cena in the last match. I agree that Balor/Rollins was too slow - I suspect (hope) they wanted to leave something in the tank for the rematch. I'd love to see a different finisher for both guys - I still don't buy the Pedigree for Rollins, and the double stomp from Balor just doesn't do it for me. He's got so many other moves that seem more brutal or final.

I skipped the women's matches after reading there wasn't much to recommend either one. I was surprised to see Jon Stewart, but that whole thing felt kind of stupid. Everything else, meh. It didn't feel like a Big 4 PPV. Too much stuff felt thrown together (Miz/Crews, Ambrose/Ziggler, the 6-woman tag match, the opening tag match).
   1679. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 22, 2016 at 05:16 PM (#5288373)
The Sasha/Charlotte match had a bad botch near the beginning, but it was pretty good after that. Crowd was really into it at the end. Those two are always a bit sloppy, but sloppiness can work in a match's favor. Good story for the match, worked around Sasha's (apparently real) injury. It was probably the third best match on the show.

Rumor is that several more suspensions are coming down this week.
   1680. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 22, 2016 at 11:40 PM (#5288545)
The 6 woman tag was perfectly cromulent, but the fact that Carmella got no reaction in Brooklyn means she's complete toast.
   1681. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 08, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5296906)
Sabu and rob van dam are on something called 'action Brandon watches ancient aliens' tonight. 9 pm.
   1682. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 08, 2016 at 02:02 PM (#5296984)
CM Punk makes his MMA debut this weekend. The UFC has been showing a series of promotional videos about his background, training, etc., over the last few weeks. In my worthless opinion his hands look slow and he pushes his punches, and his grappling looks mechanical and telegraphed. He seems a bit more competent on the ground than standing.

I understand his stamina has drawn high praise so maybe he can draw the fight out and finish a tired fighter, but I have a hard time seeing how he could be expected to win against even a relative neophyte like Mickey Gall. I'm much more interested in the main event of Allistair Overeem against Stipe Miocic which should be a big-time superheavyweight slugfest.

Lucha Underground debuted their new season last night and it was, of course, glorious.
   1683. Man o' Schwar Posted: September 10, 2016 at 11:29 PM (#5298066)
Punk got mashed. His inexperience was his undoing.
   1684. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 11, 2016 at 12:01 AM (#5298080)
I don't know why anyone would have expected a different result.
   1685. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: September 12, 2016 at 10:26 PM (#5299164)
I was at Backlash last night--my first live WWE event. The fans were noticeably behind AJ. Ambrose got a near-Reigns level of booing a couple on times, especially when he did some goofy lunatic punches but the fans appreciated it when he turned it up & did the sliding kick where he sent AJ off the apron & onto the floor. All the matches were pretty good
   1686. Man o' Schwar Posted: September 12, 2016 at 10:43 PM (#5299201)
All the matches were pretty good

I was thinking about it after the card, and that might have been the most I've ever enjoyed a match with the Miz in it. For whatever reason, he really seemed to crank it up last night. I could have done without the dopey finish - if he had gone over clean there, I think it really would have shoved his current push forward a few steps.

I'm kind of surprised they took the belt off of Ambrose so quickly. Nothing against Styles, who definitely is phenomenal and probably the best in the world right now. I just figured Dean would get a little more time before giving it up, maybe at Survivor Series in November, to cement himself at the top of the card. It's pretty easy to see him losing a rematch to Styles and then sliding back down into the upper midcard again. And what do you do with Styles now? Cena again? Orton? There's not a lot of other options at the top of the card. It's hard to picture someone like Bray Wyatt fighting for the championship when he lost to Kane last night and it feels like he's gone about 1-20 at PPVs in the last 2 years. Or do you promote a Nakamura or Joe to Smackdown and create that as the new feud?

I did notice the Ambrose booing, though I wondered if it was more of "we want AJ" and less of "we no longer want Dean".

All in all a satisfyingly good PPV. No real clunkers on the card, a lot of nice payoff finishes. The whole Heath Slater thing has been fun, though I hope they don't turn around and take the titles off of them tomorrow night. Heel Usos are no more interesting to me than the face Usos were.
   1687. Chokeland Bill Posted: September 14, 2016 at 10:50 PM (#5300617)
I think it's going to be a long time before a WWE product tops the CWC. It was basically the perfect wrestling show.
   1688. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2016 at 06:44 AM (#5300661)
I dunno, Lucha Underground just revealed that the police chief who sent two of her detectives undercover to spy on the owner of the promotion is actually a 1000 year-old Aztec princess with a magic amulet fighting a proxy battle against ancient gods.
   1689. Chokeland Bill Posted: September 15, 2016 at 08:23 AM (#5300677)
I'm about halfway through the first season of Lucha Underground, and I like it. But it also has Matt Striker and Vampiro on commentary, and that means it cannot be a perfect wrestling show.
   1690. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2016 at 08:54 AM (#5300685)
Lucha Underground gets better after the first Aztec Warfare episode in Season 1. The first half of the season was just giving the workers some facetime, the real angles and exposition comes later.
   1691. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: September 15, 2016 at 10:10 AM (#5300724)
Ambrose got a near-Reigns level of booing a couple on times, especially when he did some goofy lunatic punches...

Dean's punches are absolutely dire. You've got Jerry Lawler on your payroll...have him conduct a mandatory punching clinic. Bret said in his book that The King is the best puncher ever. That they look fierce from the top row...but feel like a kiss on your face.
   1692. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 15, 2016 at 11:02 AM (#5300769)
Bret said in his book that The King is the best puncher ever. That they look fierce from the top row...but feel like a kiss on your face.


"Superstar" Billy Graham tells a story from early in his career, when he was facing a veteran with a reputation for physically "initiating" young wrestlers in the ring with real punches, painful holds, and so forth. (I forget who this was.) In the locker room before the match, Graham made sure to be seen taping a razor blade to one of his fingers. The veteran asked Graham what he was doing that for, since there were no plans for Graham to blade himself. Graham said amiably that he'd heard from people that it was always a good idea to protect oneself in the ring. You don't need that, said the veteran. Oh, it's only for emergencies, said Graham.

When asked how his match against the veteran went, Graham said, "It was like floating on air."
   1693. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2016 at 11:08 AM (#5300777)
"Superstar" Billy Graham tells a story from early in his career, when he was facing a veteran with a reputation for physically "initiating" young wrestlers in the ring with real punches, painful holds, and so forth. (I forget who this was.)


Billy Robinson, a notorious "hooker". Every territory had a couple of these guys on the roster to keep people in line. Growing up in the Florida territory that guy was Bob Roop, a former Greco-Roman Olympian. Later, "Exotic" Adrian Street and Les Thornton filled those roles.
   1694. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: September 15, 2016 at 11:33 AM (#5300804)
Every territory had a couple of these guys on the roster to keep people in line.

I'm FB friends with Pat Rose and, believe it or not, he said that Mike Jackson (of Alabama Jr. Heavyweight Championship-for life fame) would stretch guys like Silly Putty.
   1695. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2016 at 11:44 AM (#5300814)
Mike Jackson's rep was well-known in the business. He was considered to be a very tough guy who took his work seriously and kept in great shape. I don't think he was regarded anywhere neat the level of Roop or Adrian Street as far as being a stretcher, those guy had legit experience in shoots. They both had reps as nice guys too, who wouldn't take liberties in the ring unless they had to (or the promoter asked them - Roop and Eddie Graham had a falling out over Roop's unwillingness to stretch a wrestler who I can't recall now for some transgression, it might have been Lex Luger). Les Thornton actually enjoyed making guys scream a bit in the ring, I think he wanted his opponents to be a little afraid of him.
   1696. Conor Posted: September 15, 2016 at 12:56 PM (#5300862)
I LOVED Ibushi-Perkins. Real shame WWE couldn't get Ibushi signed.

Ranallo was a little too much on the announcing for me; anyone else agree?
   1697. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: September 15, 2016 at 01:07 PM (#5300866)
Ranallo was a little too much on the announcing for me; anyone else agree?

I like him...I really do. But his work at Backlash last week drove me bonkers. Leave yourself some place to go, pal.
   1698. Conor Posted: September 15, 2016 at 01:34 PM (#5300882)
There was one call last night where he was trying to shoehorn some pop culture reference in right as there was a really close nearfall happening. Totally unnecessary.
   1699. Chokeland Bill Posted: September 15, 2016 at 02:14 PM (#5300918)
Mauro does go to the pop culture / other feds references too often. He also seems to only have one intensity level. He's still the best play-by-play guy right now.
   1700. aberg Posted: September 15, 2016 at 03:01 PM (#5300962)

There was one call last night where he was trying to shoehorn some pop culture reference in right as there was a really close nearfall happening. Totally unnecessary.


He was trying to say something like "that will do more damage than leaked emails did to Hilary Clinton!" but got cut off by a move in the middle. I like him. He has more schtick than most wrestling announcers, and I can see how that would not appeal to some.

I really loved the CWC. Even if it was due to Ibushi not wanting to sign, they made TJP a star in the process. I don't recall WWE ever marketing a Filipino-American wrestler, but that could be a useful venture. That community certainly has invested time and money in combat sports in the recent past (Pacquiao). Perkins was also much better than any of the other top contenders on the mic. He's 32, which is younger than I thought going in. Very happy for him.
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