Unless it's a work.

No possible way. You can work a storyline around a lot of things, but you can't do cancer, at least not like this. Roman would be useless to them. His merch sales would drop to nothing. He'd probably get death threats and they'd have security issues to deal with at live events. So many people have lost family members to cancer, it's just not something you joke about.

(Sponsors would pull out too. That partnership with Susan G. Konen would be gone. Make-a-Wish would probably distance themselves. The whole Connor's Cure thing would seem like a big joke.)

Vince has done a lot of questionable stuff, but even he knows better than to try this.

Well, WWE really didn't do a great job with the promotion of Evolution, but the show itself was pretty good. Great work by the ladies tonight. I wish the MYC match had gotten an extra 5 minutes or so, could have really been something special.

Yeah, I think they did themselves a disservice by making it all about how historic and groundbreaking and revolutionary this was. As a PPV, it was solid, definitely in the mid- to upper tier of PPVs that WWE has done this year. The Becky/Charlotte match would have stood out on any PPV card, and might have been the best main roster match of 2018.

(And I know that it's historic and revolutionary and all that, but having all the women gather on stage at the end of the PPV bugged me. It reminds me of GLOW, where they all come out after the first show and dance/sing in the ring together. It looks kind of bush league, in a "I've got a barn, let's put on a show" sort of way. I don't want to not see more all-women PPVs in the future, but I do want to see more time given to women's matches on regular PPVs, and more thought given to women's storylines.

For that matter, more thought to men's storylines as well. I guess that's a universal WWE problem.)

Agreed with 2302. I think the 6-woman tag got about 14 min bell to bell and the MYC only got 10. If that's how much time those two matches were going to get, I'd have it be more like 16-8 MYC match vs tag.

Loved Becky vs. Charlotte. It reminded me a little of Bret vs. Austin with the brawling around the arena and never say die attitudes. I'm also glad that Becky won pretty cleanly. It seems like they have embraced that she has become very popular as a heel, so let her run with it.

Well, they did the impossible, and it seems to have worked.

I am legitimately shocked that I'm at a point in my life where Becky Lynch, someone I've always struggled to see the upside with, is currently must-watch TV for me.

I take it she's doing the Irish step-dancing gimmick again?

Johnny Gargano, Becky Lynch, and Daniel Bryan are now all heels. It's gone gangbusters for Becky, Gargano is still TBD. Bryan originally got over that way, so maybe it could pan out. Hard to see him beating Brock, but do they really kill the turn's momentum just a few days later? Feels like a non-finish could be coming.

I was pretty against the Becky turn, but man she is killing it as a performer. Of course, she's not really a heel if she is the most popular person on both shows....

The injury might even pan out in the biggest way possible for her. Are they really going to go back to Charlotte and Ronda at Mania after burning through it this Sunday? Or do they run with Becky all the way?

Nia Jax really needs to lose her push. How many people does she need to injure? This one was about as blatant as it gets.

It will be interesting if they stick with Bryan as champ. I figure they have been hesitant to put a title on him since he's an injury risk & maybe this will be a quick reign & having him as a heel will make it easier to take the title off him

I began watching WWE again in 2014 so I haven't seen Bryan as a heel but I think having him turn heel now hurts the narrative of the face underdog vs. monster heel Lesnar

I actually much prefer AJ as a heel, I loved his work with the Bullet Club in NJPW & his brief time with Guns & Gallows terrorizing John Cena in WWE

I also think Charlotte (like her father) is a much better fit as a heel. Becky is a surprisingly good heel though

Apparently Bryan pitched the heel turn himself. It does make the Lesnar match weird, it probably should have been saved for AJ's rematch.

Bryan was an outstanding heel before he got to WWE. That's hardly relevant now, but if he borrows from that character, it could help him here. Some of the best heel runs in the history of the business have been the guys who were hard to imagine turning (Hogan 96, Bret 97).

Bryan should have been pushing to be a heel because he probably doesn't trust creative to get him over strong as a face. Look at the job they've done since his return. Not great. The heel turn was needed.

That being said, I have no idea what to expect from the Lesnar match. My preferred ending would be a Styles or Strowman run in, with either a DQ or Bryan winning. It would be silly to have Bryan get destroyed just days after giving him the belt and a fresh persona.

Bryan should have been pushing to be a heel because he probably doesn't trust creative to get him over strong as a face. Look at the job they've done since his return. Not great. The heel turn was needed.

Not only that, but the established top babyface on his show is also a technically-strong, physically small, never-say-die underdog character.

I would imagine AJ gets involved in the Bryan-Brock match since he has nothing else on the show. That's a match I've wanted to see for about five years, so I'm glad we get to see it in some fashion.

Brock is still damn good when he wants to be. I really thought it was possible he would tap. That would have blown the roof of the place.

NXT still wins the weekend, obv

Only watched Bryan-Brock and Charlotte-Ronda.

Everyone seems to have loved Charlotte-Ronda, but I didn't. Probably unfair, but in my head I can't help but compare it to Charlotte-Becky Last The Man Standing and it didn't come near that for me in terms of intensity/brutality/storytelling. Also, with Charlotte now presumably a heel how does that impact Becky's push?

Bryan-Brock was so so so so good! I've been disappointed at the reality of a lot of the recent "dream matches" that have come to fruition, but this one...this one did not disappoint. I didn't think Brock would tap, but I did think that Bryan might be able to pin. Loved the storytelling. Bryan sold the suplexes like death. Both guys came off looking stronger for the match.

Everyone seems to have loved Charlotte-Ronda, but I didn't. Probably unfair, but in my head I can't help but compare it to Charlotte-Becky Last The Man Standing and it didn't come near that for me in terms of intensity/brutality/storytelling. Also, with Charlotte now presumably a heel how does that impact Becky's push?

I would think it functionally kills it. They just made Charlotte v Rousey the WM feud. That means they have to get to work getting Charlotte back to the top of the Smackdown women's division. I mean, that's what they always wanted right? Becky was turned and given a slight push so they didn't give away Charlotte and Rousey too early. Her explosion in popularity was a happy accident. I don't know why anyone, given WWE's history, would expect the last few months to change their plans. Becky got hurt and this was their way of getting back on track for WM. They gave us a taste without giving away the whole thing and set up the feud all in one go.

I liked the Becky-Charlotte-Asuka match. I wish multi person ladder matches had a more convincing final fall. Both ladies landed on their feet in the ring.

I liked the Becky-Charlotte-Asuka match. I wish multi person ladder matches had a more convincing final fall. Both ladies landed on their feet in the ring.

Yeah, it's really one of those situations where they need to fall out of the ring off the ladder and through ringside tables. Tough to set up, particularly given that the women have less experience in these kinds of matches, but it's a great finish when it works.

It did seem like they just landed in the ring and rolled out.

Love, love, love, LOVED Becky-Charlotte-Asuka. My natural reaction (no pun intended) is to hate how much Charlotte has been shoved down my/our throats on the main roster, but damn if she hasn’t delivered time and time again. I was certain she broke a rib on the leg drop and then as someone with a history of jamming his head/upper body into things I was impressed she could walk after the barricade spear. Definitely tougher than a 2 dollar steak. As mentioned in the previous comments, the finish was my only complaint in that they needed to either go through a table or fall worse or have Ronda do something after they fell to justify them staying down long enough for Asuka to win. Or maybe have Asuka already near the top on her own ladder.

As someone who was at Takeover Brooklyn for Sasha vs. Bayley it’s kind of crazy to think that all signs point to the/a main event of Wrestlemania being a woman’s triple threat and neither of those women will be involved. I really feel like booking has failed Sasha and Bayley may need a new main roster gimmick.

Charlotte is awesome. She's legitimately one of the best workers in the company with no adjustment made for male/female. She and the writers did a great job pivoting her character to keep it edgy when Becky got over.

I was saying to a friend that it was about 4-5 years ago (like NJ said) that women were dominating NXT and rightfully main eventing shows. It's a success story for developmental that the same success has translated to the main roster. Here's hoping the main roster can also replicate the success of guys like Ciampa, Black, Gargano, Almas, Cole, etc in main roster stories and PPVs on a similar timeline.

When Daniel Bryan came back and cut those first two amazing promos, I was pretty sure he was going to quickly establish himself as the best overall performer in wrestling. It took a while longer than I expected, but I'm pretty sure he's there now. He's arguably the best talker in the company, with the possible exceptions of Joe and Heyman. And he's back to being their best in-ring guy over the past couple of months. It's hard for me to compare him against a guy like Tanahashi, since I can't judge the latter's promo work, but Bryan really just seems like the top guy in the business now. Smackdown needs to make some top babyfaces for him to work with, stat.

It's really baffling how the same company can spin questionable decisions like the Becky and Bryan heel turns into gold, but they can't do anything right with Raw. I imagine it's trained actress Becky and wrestling genius Bryan who deserve the credit, but it's not like the Raw roster isn't talented.

The recent booking of McIntyre is just baffling. Why is this guy going 50/50 with Ziggler and Balor? He should be murdering them.

It's really baffling how the same company can spin questionable decisions like the Becky and Bryan heel turns into gold, but they can't do anything right with Raw.

I think part of the problem was that they spent so many years funneling everything toward establishing Roman as the top guy, no one else was really allowed to get over. If you focus 90% of your energy into one story line, all the rest are going to suffer, and it seemed like the whole RAW position was feed people to Roman, and anyone not being fed to Roman should be left in 50/50 limbo while they bided their time before being fed to Roman.

Him getting sick is the perfect example of why you don't put all of your eggs into one basket. The only people left at the top of the card were Lesnar, Cena, and the Undertaker, who might combine to wrestle 10 matches next year.

(For the women, who knows what they're thinking. Bayley should have been a star between her ability in the ring and her connection to younger fans. Instead they put her in that horrible feud with Alexa, and then the back and forth with Sasha where they both ended up looking stupid. They put way too much energy into trying to get people to care about Nia Jax, who is a botching heat sucking disaster. Good to be a relative of the Rock, again.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Rousey. Obviously she's going to stay unbeaten until WM, but at some point she has to lose. She can't just stay in WWE for 3 years, beat everyone, then retire. At least they have some women built up where it feels like they might be on her level - Charlotte and Becky now, potentially Asuka after Sunday. I wouldn't mind seeing the 4 of them go at it at WM in the main event in some kind of elimination match.)

So long, Mean Gene. You were one of the iconic voices of wrestling in my youth, and a fantastic straight man for all the shenanigans.

The Royal Rumble card is looking really strong.

If I can crossover some MMA into the OTPW thread, human shitstain and woman-beating cokehead Greg Hardy -- undefeated veteran of 3 professional MMA fights, two against guys cans who don't even have their own Wikipedia pages -- made his UFC debut in the co-main event of the first UFC card on ESPN+.

Although Hardy probably won the first round, he was pretty well gassed out in the 2nd round to the point that his opponent, unranked and little-known Allen Crowder (who also doesn't even have his own Wikipedia page either), started clowning on Hardy by dropping his hands and verbally taunting him as Hardy faded.

This clearly wasn't part of the script as UFC president Dana White has been trading on Hardy's "celebrity" by pushing him to the moon as a potential heavyweight contender. Crowder was just another guy Hardy was supposed to truck, the UFC equivalent of a Sid Vicious jobber squash.

So following a scramble for position where Crowder was down, Hardy wound up and threw about the most blatantly illegal knee to the head of a downed opponent in UFC history, earning himself a disqualification loss. It certainly was shocking to see a pissed off Greg Hardy turn to illegal violence, causing one writer at Bloody Elbow to opine thusly:

Unforeseeable freak occurrence: Greg Hardy inflicts illegal & catastrophic violence, spoiling ESPN+’s debut co-main
Frankly, I am shocked.

Crowder survived Hardy’s sloppy early onslaught. And in the most satisfying moment of the fight, Crowder dropped his hands in the second round and began to taunt and jeer a clearly irritated and fading Hardy — whose pace had slowed to one resembling that of the earlier ESPN prelims.

Then, following a failed Crowder takedown attempt and a scramble, a standing Hardy clenched onto his kneeling opponent. Hardy hesitated, waited for a few moments, and then slammed his knee with a disgusting thud into Crowder’s grounded head, in what was surely one of his most visceral moments of illegal violence.

[Referee] Dan Miragliotta quickly pulled Hardy away, and stated that – if Crowder could not continue – Hardy would be disqualified.

It’s impossible to know Hardy’s intentions, and maybe it really can be attributed to inexperience. But, I can lay out a few facts, from which the reader can draw their own conclusion.

-- Hardy was horribly gassed and his output had waned significantly

-- Hardy’s opponent was wildly taunting him, mocking him, and appeared to hold the momentum

-- Hardy was aware that the strike was illegal

-- Hardy visibly considered and measured the strike for several moments before throwing it

Undaunted by the controversy, White praised Hardy, saying, "“The guy deserves to make a living. He’s paid his dues. When I make a decision that this is what I’m going to do, other people’s opinions don’t matter.”"

The Royal Rumble card is looking really strong.

I have family in Phoenix, so I'm using "visit family" as an excuse to go to the Rumble and the NXT show the night before. Both look like they're going to be excellent. We're sitting above the 1B dugout at Chase Field and I have heard rumors that the entrances will come from there. That could be really fun to see.

1. Sasha/Ronda
2. Becky/Asuka and Finn/Brock tie
4. Men's Rumble and Women's Rumble tie (men's was better as a match, but ending of women's was well done)
5. Bryan/AJ
6. Tag titles

Bryan/AJ was good, but the crowd didn't care and the ending sucked. I really hope they don't ruin Bryan's character with a big posse.

I don't think Becky should have lost clean to Asuka, but I understand it. Women's rumble should have gone on last. I was expecting something big in the men's to justify it, but kind of anticlimactic

Thoughts in order of best to worst match:

1. Sasha vs. Ronda – I’m the world’s #1 Sasha Banks fan so I wanted to hate this match because of the way they were feeding my beloved who deserves everything to Ronda…and then they made me love it by tricking me into thinking Sasha was going to win. The storytelling with Ronda’s right arm was terrific and the finishing sequence was a (really fun) roller coaster ride. I mean, this match was so good Sasha even pulled off a suicide dive without nearly breaking her neck!

2. Finn vs. Brock – Was not at all excited about this match and 30 seconds in I was frantically texting friends that they needed to turn on the Network. A motivated Brock is a sight to behold and they did a great job of making it believable that this little guy could beat the beast while telling a different story than Brock’s last match vs Daniel Bryan.

3. Women’s Rumble – Fantastically booked. Setting the crowd up to anticipate/chant for Becky to come out at 29 only for it to be Nia Jax was brilliant. The Lana injury was a great smokescreen. The Charlotte, Becky, Nia faceoff before the final sequence was awesome (Charlotte’s facials are *chef’s kiss*). The Becky injury probably went a little long, but who cares. Two complaints would be that, unlike the Men’s match, they backloaded the talent so the first third dragged (I never want to see Lacey Evans again) and it should have gone on last.

4. Men’s Rumble – The Rollins win surprised me. I thought they did a great job of spreading out the guys you wanted to see as far as people who either had a legitimate chance to win or be there at the end.

5. Becky vs. Asuka – I thought this was a very solid match that was hurt by its ending. Becky has been the biggest bad ass on the roster for almost half a year now, you can’t have her tap out in that spot, she needs to pass out. Or, if she’s going to tap don’t let it happen that quickly.

6. Bryan vs AJ/Tag Titles – Could not tell you a thing that happened in these matches other than their finish. I’m tired of Shane being treated as anything other than a big spot guy that should be sparingly used and I felt like this entire thing was a waste of the Miz’ time. The crowd (non)reaction killed Bryan vs. AJ for me.

Random thoughts – There’s so much talent on the roster right now. The lack of surprise/old-timer entrances in the Rumbles really drove that home. They just need to figure out how to make them stars. Brock and Ronda are the two best sellers on the roster. Women’s submissions look so much more brutal than men’s. I like Nia Jax and I don’t care how much everyone hates her.

"The crowd (non)reaction killed Bryan vs. AJ for me."

Turn the sound off and it's a different match. They were in the death spot after a 71-minute Rumble with the biggest babyface in the company winning. Placement is everything. They wrestled a really good match, but yeah, the crowd was dead for it.

Overall I think a good but not great show. I agree 100% that the Women's rumble was too backloaded - it noticeably dragged for the first half, with Lacey and Ember and Natalya trying to carry most of the freight. Even on commentary they kept saying "the ring is really filling up" in a "someone get out here and clear out this deadwood" kind of tone.

All I'll remember from the men's rumble is Nia Jax, which I guess good on WWE for making me care about Nia Jax, if only for 6 minutes. Maybe this opens the door for more intergender stuff, especially with Candace LaRae around. I feel like we've seen that finish of "smaller guy pulls bigger guy over the top rope and they fight it out on the apron" too many times. It was nice to see some of the younger guys get long runs and a chance to show what they can do, rather than just a bunch of part timers getting nostalgia eliminations.

Also, I agree that we've had enough Shane for the foreseeable future. A 49-year-old businessman shouldn't be winning best in the world and world tag team championships. He was fine as a once-a-year spot machine who would help pop the crowd between the Rumble and Mania. Particularly with so many good tag teams going completely to waste on the roster, this feels silly.

Random thought: what do you do with Dean Ambrose? I was stunned by the lack of crowd reaction when he came out. Like nothing. He was out injured for so long, and then booked so badly when he got back, no one seems to care anymore.

Random thought #2: I don't know what they're planning with Erick Rowan, but I think I'll like it. I half-expected this to turn into a Wyatt family thing, with Rowan coming down, then Harper a few minutes later, then Wyatt a few minutes after that. I hate cheap finishes on PPVs, but if this is setting up another match at Mania, I'm OK with it.

Well, apparently you piss off Ambrose with hokey material so much that he refuses to sign a new deal and leaves the company.


That's potentially a huge get for AEW if they can bring out the motivated version.

Well good for him, and good for AEW if they sign him. I can't imagine they won't try. He would immediately become the biggest star on their roster (Jericho aside).

Which came first in WWE - demotivated Dean getting downgraded into stupid angles, or stupid angles sapping Dean of his motivation? I tend to think it's the latter. He was white hot a couple of years ago, and they could have done a lot more with him than what they did. He really suffered from their inability to get people to like Reigns (and their refusal to stop trying) - as a member of the Shield, he was always #3 out of 3, but he kept ending up back in that position.

I assume Renee goes with him. She's hasn't exactly shined on commentary. It was funny on Sunday to hear how little she actually said during the matches, to the point where you might even forget she was there.

Meh. I don't think Ambrose is very good. Ok look, mediocre worker, solid on the mic. Won't miss him.

He was in stupid angles within a few months of the Shield breaking up. The hot dog cart thing was either September or October of that year and then he had the Wyatt feud.

Motivated Ambrose was probably the best promo on the roster, until the recent Joe and Bryan breakouts. Those promos against Lesnar in 2016 were something else. Really, the spring-2015 through fall-2016 version of Ambrose was one of the top 2-3 guys on the roster. His matches were still pretty good through the AJ feud. Once he got moved back to Raw, he pretty much lost all of his momentum. The initial tag run with Seth was also a pretty hot angle at the time, I guess.

I went to NXT on Saturday and the Rumble on Sunday. My main takeaway was that the Rumble was just too long. I agree with rconn's point about AJ/DB- it was a really good, scientific match (DB wisely wrestling a heelish style), but nobody had the stamina for that 5 hours into a 7 hour show. It seems like WWE realized that their TV contracts are set, so there's no variable revenue there, but their subscriber base is always variable, so they're just going to put anything of any consequence on PPV. They could have very easily done the CW match, the tag match, the US title match, and the Raw women's title match on TV over the last month. The TV would've been better because there would be real matches with stakes at least once per week, and the PPV would've been better because it would've been enjoyable to watch rather than a slog.

The individual parts were all good. The women's rumble felt like it dragged. They just don't have the same talent base and it would probably come off better if they did 20 entrants instead of 30. The men's rumble told a simple story and told it well. That one felt like it went a lot faster, and I bet the entrances were tighter if you went back and timed them. Great job by Brock and Finn giving us exactly what we want out of a Brock match.

The NXT show was a blast. I think people generally feel that way about most Takeover events in person. I hadn't been to one since the non-televised one in San Jose before Mania XXXI. Every match was good. They each had a different style. They blended pagentry, athleticism, and storytelling really well. It left me wanting to see what comes next. It was exactly what I want out of a wrestling show. The weird thing was that I didn't notice a single child in the arena.

The WWEPC YouTube channel has been putting up a bunch of great videos lately, including a couple today of the NXT women learning they would be in the Rumble and then their reactions afterwards. Good stuff.

Looks like Itami is gone as well, not that he ever did much in WWE.

You have to assume that the timing of the launch of AEW and the suddenly emboldened talent choosing to leave rather than sit through #### storylines is not a coincidence.

Itami's body is pretty much spent. If you watch closely, he has been wrestling almost exclusively with one arm since his last shoulder surgery. Really too bad that his shoulder was annihilated so soon after he got to WWE. He was awesome in hsi prime.

Does this say more about the women's match, or the state of the men? Women to close out WM35

The Raw women's championship match between Ronda Rousey, Becky Lynch and Charlotte Flair will close out the show, which is April 7 at MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey.

Probably some of both. It's hard to argue that Becky Lynch has been the biggest star in the company the last 3-4 months in terms of popularity, plus Rousey is their best chance to get mainstream viewers.

Rollins/Lesnar and Bryan/Kingston should both be good matches, but honestly it's nothing we haven't seen before.

I'm sure there's still some honor in scoring the final match on a Wrestlemania card, but it has to be less than it was just a few years ago. By now most people seem wise to the idea that the crowd is pretty burned out by the second half of these six+ hour monstrosities. I went to WM29 and while it was a pretty lame show overall, I'm glad I went. Trying to work through 20,000 sports entertainment fans on a poorly managed post-event NJ Transit system following a ~7 hour wrestling show is one of the least appealing things I can imagine. I'm sure it will be cool to be there if they manage the Kofi thing right, but omg on the rest.

I'm sure it will be cool to be there if they manage the Kofi thing right, but omg on the rest.

They have the real possibility this year of some big feel-good moments - Kingston winning the title after so many years with the company (complete with crazy New Day in-ring celebration), Becky winning, and Rollins winning (and getting to hug it out with the Shield members one last time before Ambrose leaves).

For all the times that WWE seems to screw us out of this stuff, at WM they generally do try to send the fans home happy. I'd be shocked if at least 2 of those 3 don't end up happening. Hell, I'd be shocked if all 3 don't end up happening. If you're not going to pull the trigger on Kofi now, then it'll never happen. I can't believe they would keep the title on Lesnar again. And Becky... I guess if I had to pick one, she'd be the one that would be easiest to swallow losing because they'd just turn it into the top of the card program for Summerslam. But going on last, there's no way they're sending the fans home with Charlotte as champion (and I assume at this point she's just there to eat the pin from Becky, so that Becky/Rousey can headline Summerslam). I guess Rousey could retain, but that's doesn't scream WM main event.

Who knows, I've been so wrong before.

(The thing I don't want to see happen but I think is in the back of their minds - turn the Rollins/Lesnar into a 3-way, and have Roman come out as champion now that they know the crowd will cheer for him.)

Becky's beating Ronda so that Ronda can leave/take a sabbatical.

I could see Seth losing to Brock now that Roman's back.

What a weird, underwhelming show.

What a weird, underwhelming show.

I thought they did a good job with the stuff that actually belonged on the biggest show of the year, but there was tons of filler that made the show insanely long and made the main event feel flatter than it should have.

The highlight of the night was clearly the Kofi-Bryan match. They did a great job with the pacing with Bryan using his technical skill to stay on top and gradually build fire for the short Kofi comebacks. Everyone wanted to see Kofi win from the start, but the crowd was so hot for it by the end due to the way they laid out the match. The post-match with Kofi's kids was heart-warming. It's hard to have a better pro wrestling story-match-payoff than they put together with this angle. Just a great job all around.

I thought the women's main event was very good until the weird ending. I have seen reports that it was a botched finish and that it wasn't. My best guess is that it was not a botched finish, but they had Ronda's shoulders up for part of the count to give her an excuse and build a future storyline. Ask 1997 WCW how it works out to put a Dusty finish on your biggest match of the year. I didn't get the Charlotte helicopter thing until I read that Ric entered the first Great American Bash by helicopter, and that match took place in Charlotte. That match had an impressive pace and lots of cool spots. It could have been a home run with a few more minutes and a clean finish.

I didn't love the way they did Rollins-Lesnar, but I'm not sure how I would have fixed it, either. The bottom line is that they got the belt off Brock and onto someone who will help make the weekly shows more entertaining, so that's a positive. I loved the Miz-Shane match, the big spot, and the finish. HHH and Batista went too long, but the specatcle and silliness were great; I wouldn't change anything about that match. Both the SD tag match and the Orton-AJ match were good. The Thug Cena/Elias thing was fine for people who are into the gaga stuff. I don't have a problem with that.

Of the things I didn't mention, I think onl Reigns-Mcintyre belonged on the card. That match was flat and short. I don't know if Roman can go longer right now, though I think it would have been a better match if it went longer. The women's tag match, Mysterio-Joe, Corbin-Angle, and Balor-Lashley would all get the axe from me. Even though the matches weren't that long, when you factor in the promo packages and entrances, cutting those 4 would cut over an hour from the main card. I'm also not sure what the point of the Alexa Bliss segments were (including the Hogan one). I would cut all of those. If you take all that out, you get down to about 4 hours. I'd also cut the pre-show to one hour and only keep the battle royals. 4 hours +1 hour preshow should be more than enough. I think that would help with the fan fatigue and still preserve plenty of major moments.

I think that would help with the fan fatigue and still preserve plenty of major moments.

At some point they've got to see that these crazy long shows are killing their main events. It happened last year too. 7+ hours of wrestling in one sitting is just too much for someone to take in. I was home in a comfy chair, and I peaked at Kofi/Bryan. I took a break and more or less skipped Joe/Mysterio, Reigns/McIntyre, Lashley/Balor, and Elias, and I was still low energy when it came time for the main event. I was just ready for the show to be over.

Quiet here in the last month...

I will it's nice to see the WWE putting the Money in the Bank briefcase on an up-and-coming talent like Lesnar. You have to make new stars to stay fresh in this business.

(Seriously - WMITB is already cashed in, and MMITB is on someone who will show up 5 times a year. Way to take one of the more interesting gimmicks that you can do something with for the next 4-6 months and throw it away over the course of 1 PPV. What are the odds that Lesnar cashes in at one of the Saudi Arabia shows, then gets beat for the title at another Saudi Arabia show? Gotta give them something for their millions.)

EDIT: Also, we should start a petition that all future PPVs are just AJ Styles and Seth Rollins going for 4 hours. They could do different matches, like a 5-out-of-9 series with different stipulations each time, but just them. In between Lacey Evans can walk to the ring, sashay around, then walk back to give them a breather.

It's nice to see a post in this thread. Lesnar certainly seems to be a poor choice for the MITB winner.
The WWE seems to be throwing stuff at the wall & hoping it sticks: the Wildcard Rule and the Hardcore wait I mean 24/7 title.
It's probably better they don't bring back the Hardcore title with all we know about concussions. The crowd really had no energy for poor Mick Foley's announcement. Though, he did get a nice cheer when he said, "here in Albany." Then we have a bunch dudes run out that some of us probably forgot were part of the roster: No Way Jose, EC3, Insanity Dude, Titus, Cedric Alexander, Drake Maverick, the underutilized Guns & Gallows, & Mojo. Will this belt even be worthy of the kickoff show or will it just be part of quick vignettes?

Fortunately, they have a ton of talent on the roster that is capable of great matches like Rollins vs. AJ

I don't care for the Wildcard Rule, particularly given that it seems to be just a vehicle for getting Roman on every show.

I like the theory of a 24/7 title, and I know it's been bandied around for a couple of years. Given all the programming on the WWE Network, there are plenty of options to make it interesting for cash-ins not on RAW or Smackdown. If OTOH 24/7 means only during RAW and Smackdown, then it seems kind of pointless.

Agreed about the Wildcard Rule. I also feel like all it does is muddy the waters. It's good to have some talent be on separate shows.

I'm not sure why they have Roman against Elias, who the crowd seems to want to cheer. In fact, the WWE has been tone deaf to the crowd with Elias, Rusev & Becky Lynch--turning them all heel despite them being over. Lynch so was so over they had to turn her into sort of a face/heel tweener.

Hooooo boy. I wasn't sure what to expect going on but AEW totally delivered tonight.

Yeah everything was great, but I was thinking this morning part of the reason it seems that way is because it's new. The key for them will be to see whether they can sustain this level of interest on a weekly basis going forward.

If no one in WWE had faced each other before, then their PPVs would look amazing too. You could stick John Cena and Randy Orton out there, with Cena coming through the crowd at the end of the night to attack Orton after the main event, and people would be going nuts for it. But after they've fought 100 times on PPV, no one cares.

Six months from now, we could be seeing posts about "Moxley and Omega again? Lord, that's 4 PPVs in a row. Can we move on already?". Until that point, though, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. The show was the right mix of great wrestling and surprises - surprise finishes (like Omega losing his first match in AEW) and surprise wrestlers. If they can keep that up going forward, they might really have something that will siphon off viewers from WWE who are tired of being force fed Baron Corbin and Roman Reigns.

Ambrose/Moxley is a big get for them. Recognizable top star from the past few years, to go with a long-term legend like Jericho. That will help pull some eyes to AEW from the start. They are doing a lot of things right, now they just need to make sure the weekly product is good.

Moxley is also going to NJPW. This all seems like a good sign that we'll be getting the motivated version. Hopefully WWE doesn't take it out on Renee, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

Hopefully WWE doesn't take it out on Renee, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

If they do, I'm sure AEW would be more than happy to bring her on to handle backstage interviews or stuff interacting with the public.

I was always surprised that WWE never seemed to take it out on AJ Lee after Punk left, particularly going the way that he did. You would think they'd have spent the rest of her tenure jobbing her out to nobodies or putting her in humiliating situations, particularly given their already terrible history of how they've treated the female talent.

So, as much as it sucks that he won it, Brock is pretty great as Mr. Money in the Bank?

AEW needs to make Jericho the initial champion. I mean, I think they will, but sometimes companies get too cute and try to hot shot a guy before he's ready. I think Hangman Page is going to be a star, but he's not at that level yet. Going into the new TV show, put the belt on Jericho and let the faces chase him.

AEW needs to make Jericho the initial champion. I mean, I think they will, but sometimes companies get too cute and try to hot shot a guy before he's ready. I think Hangman Page is going to be a star, but he's not at that level yet. Going into the new TV show, put the belt on Jericho and let the faces chase him.

nah.

So, as much as it sucks that he won it, Brock is pretty great as Mr. Money in the Bank?

It's easy to forget, given his sporadic and sullen appearances over the last 4-5 years, that he can be a charismatic goof when he wants to be. Brock dancing in the ring with the MITB briefcase on his shoulder is the best thing I've seen in awhile (not to mention Brock having no idea that he had a year to cash in, and berating Heyman over it.).

I wish he was at a place when he wanted to be around every week, because they could still do so much with him. There's no one left in the WWE who has his star power right now.

Do not buy into Triple-H "getting heat" by calling Daniel Bryan "a B+ player," do not buy into any wrestler petulantly "taking their ball and going home," and do not buy into Brock Lesnar as a sullen absentee wrestler.

Just because professional wrestling is a toxic psychological shitshow where the owners and bookers transmute their own biases, mistakes and resentments into talking points, thus conveniently retrofitting their own destructive character flaws as "planned" storyline beats, is no reason for anyone to surrender their own common sense.

Brock Lesnar has beaten Vince McMahon in the boardroom as no other interchangeable meathead wrestler ever has. Vince McMahon begrudges Lesnar for doing so. And thus the fans must be induced to boo Lesnar for his part-time schedule and mercenary dominance so that McMahon can avenge his beta dog loss.

Moxley went all in on WWE/Vince on the new Jericho podcast

I watched Moxley's first NJPW match. Pretty good, though I felt his timing was a bit off in places. Definitely not just doing his WWE stuff, though.

The Ospreay/Shingo match after it was really great. I think only the third time I've seen an Ospreay match, after the (in)famous match with Ricochet and some random RoH thing I caught on TV a few years ago. Much improved from what I remember, he can do some crazy stuff but now it doesn't seem quite as choreographed.

It's nice to see him opening up a bit. I liked the Impaler variant on the double arm DDT as a finisher.

Any planning to watch the Showdown thing tomorrow? I find I have zero interest.

Any thoughts on Super Sweatdown? I can't believe people are giving them millions of dollars for that kind of show.

I actually let my network sub expire this week, so I couldn't even watch it. I see the word of mouth is very not good.

I found out yesterday that my TV no longer supports the WWE network. My 3-year-old Samsung TV is apparently now obsolete. Apparently last month WWE axed a bunch of 2- and 3-year old TVs from the devices that they support.

This was the final nail in my network subscription. I'm not buying a new TV for the pleasure of paying to watch Randy Orton fight HHH, or Shane McMahon against Roman Reigns.

That Goldberg-Undertaker match was an unmitigated train wreck.

I really only keep my WWE network sub for the old stuff like the early manias and Saturday Night Main Event

I only really watch NXT anymore, and all of that is up on Hulu. I might renew for single months to get live Takeovers, but that's about it.

I watched Super Showdown with low expectations and treated it as something slightly more significant than a RAW or Smackdown episode so I guess my expectations were tempered

The Undertaker/Goldberg match seemed to have a botched finish and having two old, part timers battle at the end of 100 degree show was a bad idea

I don't know what they're doing with tag team division but I forgot Ryder & Hawkins were even champions and then Bryan & Rowan are champs on Smackdown. The tag division has potential but the only teams making much noise are the Usos and the Revival. However, there are lots or other decent teams: the underutilized Guns & Gallows, the Vikings, Heavy Machinery, Akam/Rezar, etc

On the women's tag title side, they have done literally nothing with the iICONICS and have mishandled Asuka and Sane

Instead of building up these teams and other characters/story lines we get the 24/7 title and the Wildcard

^ I don't have a problem with the 24/7 title. With 5 hours of programming and an endless social media well they have plenty of time for goofy stuff like that if it's well done, which it honestly has been.

I hate the wildcard rule, but understand that they had to do something to keep from pissing off fox or USA.

I think they have the tag division they want to have, which is enough to say they have it but not enough these guys can force their way up the card. All you ever hear is Vince hates tag team wrestling except as a place to heat up new talent. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the titles unifies by the time Smackdown moves to fox.

The women's tag title scene is horrendous. When they announced the belts they had Nia and Tamina, Bayley and Sasha, Sky Pirates at NXT, the iconic, and Phoenix and Natalya. That was basically it. It was probably too few teams, but you could squint and say if they moved across all 3 shows, and if WWE was smart about forming and breaking up teams to keep women moving from the singles to the tag scene efficiently, they could survive while they bulked up the division. Instead they immediately split up the first champs, Phoenix went back into retirement, Jax is injured, they appear to have decided to focus on singles pushes for Rose and Deville, and they've replaced all those teams with one team they don't seem to want to use. It's one thing for a division to fall on hard times, another altogether for WWE to apparently completely dismantle it within months of launch. It's really inexplicable.

Very good comments from bigglou, particularly about the women's tag division

Has anyone watched the Dark Side of Pro Wrestling on Viceland?
They did 6 shows which were about:
-the Last of the Von Erichs about Kevin & his family
-the Fabulous Moolah--surprisingly the other women came to her defense in some ways while detailing what a rotten person she was in other ways
-Gino Hernandez & his mysterious death
-the death of Bruiser Brody in Puerto Rico
-Macho Man & Miss Elizabeth --worth watching just for Jake the Snake's Macho Man imitation
-the Montreal Screwjob--wow Cornette hates Vince Russo, which makes for good soundbites

Lots of commentary from Cornette, Bruce Pritchard, Bischoff, & the booker/ref from World Class Championship Wrestling

I thought the Dark Side episodes were great (I watched all of them). I knew all the von Erich stuff, and I think there are better documentaries out there (Heroes of World Class and Triumph/Tragedy of World Class both do a more comprehensive job). But I liked seeing that Kevin has found some kind of peace in his life. I can't imagine going through what he's lived with.

The Brody one was my favorite. I had always heard the stories but never really knew the details. Talk about the fix being in.

I was surprised by the Moolah one as well. There were some of the usual allegations, but like you I was surprised by the number of women who defended her.

I think I heard there's another season planned. Lord knows there are plenty of other stories they could tell (Pillman would be good, Benoit if they wanted to go there, what happened with Dino Bravo, Snuka and the alleged murder coverup, Candido, Owen Hart, etc.).

wow Cornette hates Vince Russo

Never listened to Cornette's podcast, I take it?

I'm really disappointed that the first WWE PPV in my local market in almost a decade is Stomping Grounds.

"I'm really disappointed that the first WWE PPV in my local market in almost a decade is Stomping Grounds."

So far, it's one of the worst cards I can ever remember for a WWE PPV, which is saying a lot. Two rematches from two very average matches at Super Showdown - Rollins/Corbin and Ziggler/Kofi. Bailey/Alexa should be bad and Lacey/Becky was bad the first time.

Corbin in major title mathces I'll never understand and I've never gotten Dolph Ziggler. He's a slightly better Billy Gunn who screams and overacts in every promo.

Never listened to Cornette's podcast, I take it?

Didn't Cornette get arrested for defacing Russo's car at some point? Or am I misremembering that story?

I think I heard there's another season planned. Lord knows there are plenty of other stories they could tell (Pillman would be good, Benoit if they wanted to go there, what happened with Dino Bravo, Snuka and the alleged murder coverup, Candido, Owen Hart, etc.).

things i'd want to see:

the early 90s WWE steroid scandal(s).
nu jack.
perry saturn.
all of the broken necks (taz, benoit, sabu, austin, angle, sabu (again), holly, taz (again), benoit (again), and on and on and on). -- bonus points if they play justin credible's ECW music over the credits.
chris kanyon.
virgil.
meng.
kamala.

Didn't Cornette get arrested for defacing Russo's car at some point? Or am I misremembering that story?

I don't know about that, but Cornette did attack a Smoky Mountain Wrestling worker's car with a baseball bat because the worker demanded $300 in back pay in exchange for returning a video camera Cornette owned.

Cornette being Cornette, he then reportedly changed his answering machine message to “Hi, this is Richard Kimble and I swear it was a one-armed man with that baseball bat. If you’ve got a message about Smoky Mountain Wrestling, leave it. If you’ve got a message about my new paint, body and auto glass shop, leave that, too.”

Cornette did sell autographed copies of a restraining order Russo filed against him, and donated thousands of dollars he got from that to charity.

Cornette did sell autographed copies of a restraining order Russo filed against him, and donated thousands of dollars he got from that to charity.

That's what it was. I think I was combining the SMW and the restraining order stories into one.

things i'd want to see:

the early 90s WWE steroid scandal(s).
nu jack.
perry saturn.
all of the broken necks (taz, benoit, sabu, austin, angle, sabu (again), holly, taz (again), benoit (again), and on and on and on). -- bonus points if they play justin credible's ECW music over the credits.
chris kanyon.
virgil.
meng.
kamala.

Kanyon would be a great one. Nu Jack/Mass Transit. The steroid trials would be great too.

Virgil/Kamala almost belong together, sort of the idea of what happens to the wrestlers after they break down and can't work anymore.

I wonder if there are people still alive who could give firsthand accounts of Vince Sr getting Buddy Rogers to split from the NWA and the chaos that ensued.

Verne Gagne firing Hogan for wanting to do Rocky 3 doesn't really fit the show's theme, but it would be a fun story.

I'd also sign up for a rock band-style documentary of the Freebirds.

Kanyon, Pillman, Benoit would all be fascinating. I found that I preferred the ones this year where I knew less about the backstory (Gino and Moolah both taught me new things).

Virgil once aggressively hit on my wife in the drinks line at an ROH show. Probably my biggest claim to fame.

Never listened to Cornette's podcast, I take it?

You're correct. I may need to check it out.

I think I heard there's another season planned. Lord knows there are plenty of other stories they could tell (Pillman would be good, Benoit if they wanted to go there, what happened with Dino Bravo, Snuka and the alleged murder coverup, Candido, Owen Hart, etc.).

I came across an article that they had 75% of a show done on Bravo and would include it if they get a 2nd season.


Corbin in major title mathces I'll never understand and I've never gotten Dolph Ziggler. He's a slightly better Billy Gunn who screams and overacts in every promo.

Agreed. I've just never been big on Ziggler either

Virgil once aggressively hit on my wife in the drinks line at an ROH show. Probably my biggest claim to fame.

also, i'd like to see a mockumentary focusing on the "it's real to me dammit" guy, and how he's now, presumably, deputy undersecretary of the US department of transportation.

I think I heard there's another season planned. Lord knows there are plenty of other stories they could tell (Pillman would be good, Benoit if they wanted to go there, what happened with Dino Bravo, Snuka and the alleged murder coverup, Candido, Owen Hart, etc.).

A couple more interesting ones they could tackle are the innovativeness & destructiveness of Dynamite Kid & also the New Japan Dojo incident involving Kensuke Sasaki & his tag team partner Hiroshi Hase's resulting departure from New Japan

Didn't Cornette get arrested for defacing Russo's car at some point?

I originally read this as Cornette defecating on Russo's car, which if true also wouldn't surprise me at all given Cornette.

I liked seeing that Kevin has found some kind of peace in his life. I can't imagine going through what he's lived with.


Kevin von Erich: "I used to have five brothers. Now I'm not even a brother."

Shocking news today, with ECW and WCW retroactively winning the Monday Night Wars.

I think it's fair to say that Raw is more likely to become better and Smackdown is more likely to become worse (but really who knows about the latter)?

Putting Heyman in charge of anything is a great idea. If they really let him run with his own ideas, I suspect RAW will become must-watch TV in short order.

Bischoff, who knows? He did great with Nitro for a few years, and then it crashed and burned in spectacular fashion.

In either event, I find it hard to believe that, even with them in charge, Vince won't still have the final say. If that's the case, things might not change much (I could see Heyman having a good impact on the midcard, with the top of the bill still a mess).

ETA: One positive is that the shows should seem very different. One potential negative is I can see them doing this for 6 months, then running some stupid invasion angle where one show attacks the other.

One potential negative is I can see them doing this for 6 months, then running some stupid invasion angle where one show attacks the other.

There's roughly a 100% chance of this happening, right?

David Arquette says he's ready for another run on top.

Putting Heyman in charge of anything is a great idea. If they really let him run with his own ideas, I suspect RAW will become must-watch TV in short order.

vince is too emotional about RAW for heyman to have creative control.

history has shown that you can do whatever the hell you want on smackdown or NXT, but vince will never let RAW stray from his vision.

i suspect this all has a lot to do with the disaster that will undoubtedly be the XFL, so once that goes hindenberg, vince will be right back to meddle in all of this.


tl;dr: this has an 8 month shelf-life.

In either event, I find it hard to believe that, even with them in charge, Vince won't still have the final say. If that's the case, things might not change much (I could see Heyman having a good impact on the midcard, with the top of the bill still a mess).

I think what is likely to happen is that Paul and Eric are a filter before it reaches Vince, so they can at least weed out the weaker material before it gets to him. Vince will probably still take the reins on main event stuff, but he's basically let Paul run Brock and Ronda already so maybe not.

Well, tonight's Takeover begs a couple of questions:

1. Why the hell was Candice not wrestling all the time for her first year and half on the roster?
2. Why is Io Shirai not the champion?

Best WWE women's match since Sasha/Charlotte Falls Count Anywhere?

Maybe they think she's too old/beat up to build any kind of real future around, and there are enough other women already who need airtime. But honestly I'd so much rather see Candice doing stuff than watch them continue to try to push Natalya, Nia, Naomi, Tamina, etc. Just bring her up to the main roster and start working her into programs there. You'd get fresh matches with Becky, Charlotte, Bayley, and lord knows she can hold her own. Play up her history as a badass who wrestled men and was a former tag champion (not that they'd ever show the aftermath of that match).

With Gargano apparently coming up permanently after tonight, they might as well.

Summerslam was actually kinda good.

Maybe we will finally get NXT Sasha back.

Did anybody else watch AEW All Out? I thought it was pretty good and while much of the wrestling is better or equal to WWE, the production is a noticeable step below but I guess that's to be expected. A once every other month or so PPV along with the forthcoming weekly show seems right, I sure hope they dont do a PPV each month

I would like to see a little more out of Omega who was so good in NJPW.
Hangman Page did like three buckshot clotheslines which while I love the move, maybe he needs to add a few more moves to his move set

Update on two of the GOAT North American Wrestler contenders:

Chris Jericho - turns having the title belt stolen into a big angle that goes viral and sells a bunch of T-Shirts

Ric Flair - tries to trademark a gimmick that his daughter's best friend is currently using and he never did, which is rich considering his own history with gimmick infringement.

Ric Flair - tries to trademark a gimmick that his daughter's best friend is currently using and he never did, which is rich considering his own history with gimmick infringement.


"The Man" preparing for a brutal weapons match.

Did anybody else watch AEW All Out? I thought it was pretty good and while much of the wrestling is better or equal to WWE, the production is a noticeable step below but I guess that's to be expected. A once every other month or so PPV along with the forthcoming weekly show seems right, I sure hope they dont do a PPV each month

I would like to see a little more out of Omega who was so good in NJPW.
Hangman Page did like three buckshot clotheslines which while I love the move, maybe he needs to add a few more moves to his move set

I think they're doing quarterly PPVs, which seems right. Honestly, I'd prefer a 1 hour TV show rather than 2, but maybe they can use that extra time to develop some depth beneath the top ~8-10 guys on the roster.

WWE has got to a point where they don't have a lot of BAD matches, but they don't really strive for the type of insanely athletic matches that blow away the hardcore fans, such as what we saw in the G1. WWE is very strong in production value, but too often skews toward spectacle over substance (which there's an audience for, but it's not really me). If AEW can just provide an alternative that's a little more competition-focused with straightforward storylines, I think it can be a successful alternative.