Flip flop and fly

WWE has got to a point where they don't have a lot of BAD matches, but they don't really strive for the type of insanely athletic matches that blow away the hardcore fans, such as what we saw in the G1. WWE is very strong in production value, but too often skews toward spectacle over substance (which there's an audience for, but it's not really me). If AEW can just provide an alternative that's a little more competition-focused with straightforward storylines, I think it can be a successful alternative.

The King of the Ring matches have actually been a pretty good showcase of top level wrestling. Elias and Corbin just had their best ever single matches on back to back days. So there is at least some evidence that they realize the in-ring needs to improve. They are getting over guys that were off TV or beaten like a drum a month or two ago, purely through wrestling.

I think AEW is also leaving themselves a bit open right out of the gate, by running a women's title match as the key focus of the pilot but not really having star talent involved. NXT is probably going to throw a Shayna title match up against it (I figure Rea gets added to the announced triple threat and gets the title, otherwise Bianca seems most likely), and will probably have a more impressive match. If the women's title doesn't main event the first AEW show but does the competing NXT show, WWE is still scoring points. In general, the women are where WWE have a pretty big advantage. Even when AEW starts to put on insane Joshi matches, WWE actually has better Joshi and can do the same thing.

AEW's strength is their tags. I think they should have reversed what they are actually doing, and done a tag title match on the debut and a tournament for the women. That way you can have a blow-away tag match in the pilot and develop characters for the women to build up to the title.

I am very curious to see how the draft shakes things up. Becky has been on all of the Smackdown advertisements, I imagine she has to be going over to Fox. Would they really move her there and keep Seth on Raw? Or do they have Seth, Roman, and Brock all on Smackdown? If so, who becomes top face on Raw?

I am very curious to see how the draft shakes things up. Becky has been on all of the Smackdown advertisements, I imagine she has to be going over to Fox. Would they really move her there and keep Seth on Raw? Or do they have Seth, Roman, and Brock all on Smackdown? If so, who becomes top face on Raw?

Matt Riddle. Just kidding. Sort of.

Does AEW think Jack Swagger is a draw? I think I might disagree with that?

NXT had the better show, but of course they tried much harder.

when did chris jericho start cosplaying as james storm?

Does AEW think Jack Swagger is a draw? I think I might disagree with that?

i think you misspelled jack thwagger.

i think the biggest strength AEW has going for it is that they can get people like me to consider watching. the last time i paid any amount of meaningful attention to WWE was when shinsuke nakamura debuted in NXT. before that, it was when CM punk threw a tantrum to get his face on an ice cream bar.

all AEW had to do was exist.

NXT was better than AEW last night. They're character/storyline stuff was better, but they have had way more time to lay the groundwork there. AEW gets a pass on that for now. I was surprised how much better the wreslting on NXT was. Some of it was putting so many top guys in matches, but AEW pretty much did the same thing. Cody, Jericho, Bucks, Omega, Pac, Hangman all had matches. Lucha Bros, Moxley, Hager (who I still really like), Goldy were all involved in physicality. They're going to need to build depth because you can't have everybody on your roster that involved every week and stay interesting.

By contrast, NXT didn't have Kushida, Walter, Lee, Dijak on screen at all. Dream only did a promo. None of the 205 guys were featured this week and seem like a regular feature going forward. Balor and Ciampa were only on enough to tease.

AEW felt more like a main roster WWE show, in both good (the arena and overall presentation) and bad ways. Both the women's title match and the main event had obvious DQs that didn't happen. Like what is Nyla's motivation with the chairs? How is Moxley's attack not a DQ? If things are supposed to be more sportlike, the rules need to matter. Also, posting the match records and then trying to play off the 0-2 Nyla Rose as dominant doesn't really work. Some kinks to work out.

NXT needs to get out of Full Sail, it's pretty obvious now. If you switched the venues last night, things would look kinda ugly for AEW.

Well, strongly against my expectations, AEW blew NXT out of the water in ratings. 1.4m to just under 900k. I would've guessed that AEW would do something like 750k. 1.4m is within shouting distance of a bad episode of SD. I guess there's more of an appetite for it than I would've guessed.

I strongly agree with 2409 that the run-ins, constant low-blows, cheating, etc were overdone. That stuff is fine, but each thing should happen once every few weeks or months, not several times in a show.

Meltzer did a ratings break down. Apparently AEW didn't really take that many viewers from NXT, but brought in mostly a new audience. NXT actually gained viewers from 18-49 over last week, but lost viewers 50+ to baseball.

That almost seems like the strange reliance on WWE/WCW nostalgia could backfire, but it's interesting that there seems to be a sizable untapped audience.

AEW doubled NXT in the 18-49 demo.

NXT had better matches, sure. They also blew their highest profile match the first week. Riddle/Cole is about the best thing they can offer. I guess Balor/Cole can be a bigger draw but it won't be the quality of Cole/Riddle.

I'm not sure that AEW doesn't already have more compelling characters and potential storylines than NXT/WWE. MJF is what the Miz wishes he could be. He has the potential to be a Piper-level heal and he's only 23. Pac comes across as a badass top guy in AEW. Vince presented him as colorless when he was Neville. Moxley has already shown way more character and aggression than he ever did when he was Ambrose.

Cody has made himself into a huge main event star. I had never been the biggest fan of his in the ring, but his stuff in AEW so far as come across as the most compelling. He seems to have a huge ceiling as either a babyface or heel.

I think NXT needs to get out of Full Sail. It makes the show seem little league. I don't care how good the wrestling is. I know they are billing NXT now as really a separate brand now, but it still comes across as a developmental territory in that building.

Didn't see tonight's WWE Hell in a Cell show, but a friend of mine who watches everything emailed me. After the poorly-booked ending to tonight's Rollins-Fiend main event-- a disqualification in a "No DQ" match-- the crowd was chanting "AEW, AEW."

Not having seen it occur live, there's no way I'll ever get to hear the chant in any replay clips ever.

Didn't see tonight's WWE Hell in a Cell show, but a friend of mine who watches everything emailed me. After the poorly-booked ending to tonight's Rollins-Fiend main event-- a disqualification in a "No DQ" match-- the crowd was chanting "AEW, AEW."

Not having seen it occur live, there's no way I'll ever get to hear the chant in any replay clips ever.

big 579i66y cool's got you covered.

I am utterly baffled even contemplating the thought process that goes into coming up with that main event finish.

I'll note that in the most important week of US professional wrestling in quite a long time, Sasha Banks probably had the best match. She'll never to get actually win one of those matches, she's clearly just there to make the chosen few look good. It's a shame that she spent most of the past 2-3 years not even allowed to do that.

FWIW, the ending was a ref stoppage, not a DQ. The announcers did not make that clear.

Ehhhhhh. Considering they released a poll a day or two before that posited DQ as a possible finish, I'm going to say that's a retcon in response to the outcry.

I thought both shows were better this weak. More character stuff to go with the wrestling.

They accidentally spoiled the draft order in the pools list they posted yesterday. Good sign that they have their act together.

I'm just commenting on this thread so it doesn't archive. Lots going on in wrestling right now with WWE, AEW & New Japan. I hate to see AXS move away from New Japan. A few things I'm excited or underwhelmed about:
I'm glad to see Drew McIntyre get some time on the mic to get himself over, I'm happy to finally see Liv Morgan back but disappointed she's in a program with Lana who I think is one of the weakest performers, MJF has tons of potential but having Cody feud with a bunch of other people is taking the steam out of the feud, interesting to see the Dark Order get de-pushed after all the online flack, Jericho/Moxley should be a better version of an old WWE feud, Lynch/Asuka should be a hotter angle than it is so far, it'll be interesting to see where they go with Rumble & Mania.

Poor Ricochet, he loses to Lesnar in a one sided match at Super Showdown & then jobs out to the immortal Riddick Moss for the prestigious 24/7 title.

The WWE front office must be sending another one of their petty and counterproductive "messages." Maybe Ricochet failed to hold the elevator door for Road Dogg Jesse James one day.

I'm really enjoying AEW right now. The PPV at the weekend was fantastic, and generally they're blowing WWE away for me. Raw just seems to be a load of indistinguishable guys with long hair and beards saying and doing the same things every week. AEW are supposedly planning at least one UK event this year and I'm super hyped for it.

Away from US stuff, I was at Ospreay v Sabre for the UK promotion Revolution Pro's title belt, which was fantastic. I'm watching more wrestling at the moment than I have for years, and not much of it is WWE.

Maybe Ricochet failed to hold the elevator door for Road Dogg Jesse James one day.

I was thinking maybe he accidentally ran over Stephanie's dog

I also watched the AEW ppv. Aside from the matches all running a few minutes too long, it was excellent. The card was stacked. I'm impressed with AEW.

Dark Side of the Ring returns to Viceland on March 24
Here's an excerpt from Variety :
https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/dark-side-of-the-ring-season-2-premiere-date-chris-benoit-vice-1203521655/

Season 2 of the show, which goes behind the scenes of some of the most controversial stories in pro wrestling, will debut on March 24 at 9 p.m. ET/PT. The two-hour season premiere will delve into the story of Chris Benoit, who killed his wife, Nancy, and son, Daniel, in 2007 before committing suicide. The episode will feature interview’s with Benoit’s family and friends, including his other son, David, and Sandra Toffoloni, Nancy Benoit’s sister.

The season will also feature episodes on: the murder of Dino Bravo; the “Brawl for All” tournament that led to career-ending injuries; the career of ECW star New Jack; David Schultz’s violent run-in with a 20/20 reporter; the death of Nancy Argentino, Jimmy Snuka’s girlfirend; the story of tag team wrestling legends Hawk and Animal; Herb Abrams’ attempt to build a wrestling empire; and the story of Owen Hart’s death during a WWE pay-per-view.

I hope the Benoit episode includes interviews with the dogs in the enclosed pool area.

Herb Abrams’ attempt to build a wrestling empire

Abrams is easily the LaToya Jackson or the Hawkeye of that list of show topics. Today, a lone PPV with virtually no buy rate or paid attendance for a promotion on an obscure cable sub-network... tomorrow, a wrestling empire!


Also, another vote for AEW as the most interesting show going. Although Old Man Randy Orton is doing some of his best "conflicted sadism" work in his Edge storyline.

I'm pretty sure this was the most famous match in the history of Herb Abrams' UWF.

the career of ECW star New Jack

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

If you're stuck in quarantine WrestleTalk are currently livestreaming a closed doors indie UK show - have a look and maybe chip in for indie wrestlers hit by the shutdown?

Edit: should mention that the main event is Will Ospreay v Bea Priestley, so not just unknowns.

Due to the virus, Wrestlemania is now going to take place in an empty training facility with no fans in attendance.

But this is WWE, so they'll still announce the crowd as a record-breaking 87,665.

Due to the virus, Wrestlemania is now going to take place in an empty training facility with no fans in attendance.

They will shave an hour off the show on ring entrances alone.

So, Wrestlemania will be down to 9 hours this year?

Has anybody been watching Dark Side of the Ring on Viceland?

The Brawl for All episodes was probably as light as it gets for the show (no murder), but I dug it for a nostalgia kick. Have been avoiding the Benoit two-parter. Life is depressing enough, Vice TV!!

I think I enjoyed the Brawl for All episode the most. The Benoit two-parter was well done.
I liked Dino Bravo's episode even though the subtitles too often matched the background & were tough to read


The only episode they've done in the two seasons that was kinda meh was the New Jack one which is pretty much just that he's out of control.

The only episode they've done in the two seasons that was kinda meh was the New Jack one which is pretty much just that he's out of control.

i was entertained.

the most ###### up thing was how everyone just shrugged when they heard explanations for why new jack did...whatever.

jim cornette on new jack beating a 17 year old half to death because the guy blew him off pre-match: "yeah, that'd do it".
d-lo brown, moments before watching new jack stab a guy in the neck between 9 and 16 times: "is he shooting on jack ...oh, that is not going to end well"
the sandman on new jack tasing vic grimes, then throwing him off a 30' scaffold: "i was with him when he bought the taser. he told me he was gonna do it."


ah, good times.

The Brawl for All episodes was probably as light as it gets for the show (no murder), but I dug it for a nostalgia kick. Have been avoiding the Benoit two-parter. Life is depressing enough, Vice TV!!

fun fact:

his son is trying to get into wrestling...with the ring name "chris benoit jr."


that application is going right into WWE's shredder.

AEW wrestlers as fans >>> WWE performance center/NXT wrestlers as fans

There's something really dead about WWE right now, not even taking into account the silent void they're performing in. Major lull in the characters and the booking. AEW is substantially more entertaining at the moment.

I agree with that. AEW is a much fresher product right now. It's too bad Britt Baker got hurt, she's much better as a heel but she was still on tv last week which was good.

so .... jim cornette ....

The disaster that was Raw Underground pretty much sums up the wrestling business right now...

This poor, forgotten thread kinda sums up the downturn the wrestling business is going through right now

Retribution ho-hum, RAW Underground um ok

Roman Reigns is a Paul Heyman guy. I expect him to cut a Taz-like you didn't care about me when I was gone promo on the fans. Hopefully he changes up his moves set

AEW is playing the long game with the Dork Order

I expect Otis to get obliterated and Big E to get the Wrestlemania shot

Chris Jericho @IAmJericho
Im not a political person, but is it strange to anybody else, that for the first time ever, we have to wait a day...2 days...5 days...10 days...to find out who won the the presidential race?

Lance Storm @LanceStorm
The 2000 election took a month to finally be decided. Not exactly the first time ever. I cut promos about this in WCW.

I don't know for certain since I wasn't there, but I'm going to guess that for at least the first couple dozen presidential elections that CNN wasn't able to call a winner on election night.

Bully Ray @bullyray5150
Its Sunday ... you know what that means.

#RIPBrodieLee

We lost a good brother.

(i...have no idea what that means)

If you’re a wrestling fan of my generation, your fandom is marked by obituaries; moments of sadness and terror and existential dilemma. The majority of them, even the tragic ones, didn’t give me that same shock that Owen’s death did. Maybe I was inured to it. To a large extent there was an otherness to them, even as they became recurrent. The comings and goings of wrestlers from our televisions throughout our lives made it feel like they continued to exist in some vague faraway territory, slugging on even after their deaths. But there are some moments when the shock climbs up onto my shoulders again. This Saturday was one of them, when word came down about Jon Huber’s death. He was 41 years old, in the prime of his career and, more importantly, his life.
...
I know now there’s nothing more remarkable, more heroic, than the way Jon Huber lived his life, and the way he never had to enter the wrestling ring to accomplish it. You can see it in every tribute written about him, like the one by his old partner Erick Redbeard (formerly Erick Rowan): “He would always look forward to getting home to his family. After every loop he would say to me, ‘Goodbye forever,’ because he would want his one or two days with them, to feel like forever.”

First post on this thread for the year. Ouch. Shows you what a rough period wrestling is going through.
There’s lots of cool wrestling shows coming up though:

Dark Side of the Ring Season 3 starts on May 6. The first episode is about Brian Pillman. Later episodes focus on Collision in Korea, Bruiser Bedlam, Dynamite Kid & The Ultimate Warrior. They’ll be 14 episodes this season

Also, A&E has two wrestling programs: WWE’s Most Wanted Treasures will be on at 10pm EST on Sundays & their biography series will profile wwe legends & will be on sundays at 8pm EST

A&E Network and WWE Studios are giving fans the ultimate ringside seat in an all-new Sunday night programming partnership, with eight original two-hour documentaries showcasing the stories behind some of the most memorable WWE Superstars including Stone Cold Steve Austin®, "Macho Man" Randy Savage®, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper™, Booker T®, Shawn Michaels®, Bret Hart, Mick Foley and Ultimate Warrior. Each special will air weekly at 8pm ET/PT, starting with "Stone Cold" Steve Austin on Sunday, April 18. #WWEonAE​​​

Dark Side of the Ring Season 3 starts on May 6. The season is split into two parts. First episode focuses on Brian Pillman

Here’s a list of the subjects for season 3’s episodes
Brian Pillman two part show
Collision in Korea 1995 WCW/New Japan show
Ultimate Warrior
Chris Kanyon
Luna Vachon
Bruiser Bedlam
Dynamite Kid
WWF Steroid Trial
Plane Ride From Hell
Nick Gage
FMW
XPW
Grizzly Smith

The writers of the series said they may tackle Chris Adams & the Freebirds for future episodes since they have been picked up for a fourth season

The writers of the series said they may tackle Chris Adams & the Freebirds for future episodes since they have been picked up for a fourth season

i think ESPN's original 30 for 30 is a reasonable point of comparison for this series, so i wouldn't mind if they leaned a little less into "the dark side" angle of this and put together a few lighthearted episodes to help stretch the material out.

The match—if you can even call it one—consisted of Lane throwing a few stiff punches at New Jack, who then pulled out what he called a “Wolverine-type claw” and began stabbing his opponent. New Jack even cut his own arm so deeply he had to go to the hospital.

The story, like Erich Kulas’s before it, had a few additional twists and turns. This time, New Jack was arrested and his fans raised money to pay his bail, only to have Lane drop the charges in exchange for New Jack promising to train and perhaps even feud with him in the future. New Jack, more interested in survival and self-respect than anything else, swerved everyone: He didn’t lift a finger to train Lane, and he pocketed the money that the fans gave him for bail. “It was some of the easiest money I’d ever made,” he recalled.

this is a thing that happened:

Patches Chance @patcheschance
Still losing my mind over Nick Gage with the pizza cutter then DOMINOS WITH THE PIZZA CUTTER?! #AEWDynamite
https://twitter.com/patcheschance/status/1420569568901218304

and how did dominos feel about that? not great, bob.

Interesting times in wrestling these days with the WWE cuts & all the rumored AEW signings. It will be interesting to see if AEW can capitalize on the momentum over the next few months

And yes Domino’s was definitely not a fan of the Nick Gage pizza cutter spot :-0

pouring one out for ring of honor.

For most of my life, I thought I was crazy.

Nuts. Insane. Psychotic. Violent. Sick.

“Oh, come on, Eddie. You’re bullshitting. This is a work. We get it. It’s part of the character.”

My guy, you really don’t understand. I’ve been out of my mind since before I can remember.

...
To be honest with you, the only thing that kept me from getting depressed was wrestling. I either had to be fighting in the neighborhood, or sitting at home watching a match. Otherwise, I’d fall into a depression. Back then, I didn’t even have the words for it. I was trying to be such a hard-ass that I didn’t want to hear about no mental health, no therapists, no feelings.

“Depression? The f*ck is a depression?”
...
I was sick. I hated myself. I would sit at home drinking whiskey, watching guys who I’d come up with in the indies wrestling on national TV in the big promotions, and I’d just sit and stew until I blew up. I’d punch holes in the walls. I’d smash bottles. I was a danger to myself and others. One week, I ended up going on a bender that was so bad that I just kind of disappeared. I was supposed to be doing shows and I just didn’t show up. I smashed my cell phone and no one could get ahold of me. People were scared that I was dead. I woke up one afternoon and there were just beer bottles smashed everywhere in my apartment.

this is great ####.

Agreed. The Eddie Kingston Players Tribune is an excellent read

https://twitter.com/JoeSetyon/status/1460103183435325445

The Mets are hiring an Associate Analyst in Baseball Analytics

Knowledge of baseball not required

Maybe they should hire the WWE comedy writers

ROH held its “Final Battle” pay per view on Saturday night, and while the promotion has made noise about reorganizing and restarting in 2022, it seems likely that it has run its final show. In honor (pun intended) of that potential farewell, here is a list of (some of) the greatest (and/or most significant, for a variety of reasons) matches in the company’s 20-year history (in one man’s humble opinion).
...
Homicide vs. Steve Corino, 8/16/03
My pick for the greatest match in the promotion’s history, this wasn’t athleticism, workrate, and flashy action—this was an ugly, bloody, violent fight, much more reminiscent of classic 1980s territorial wrestling brawls then the athletic wrestling ROH is known for. By the end of this match both men and the entire ring mat were covered in claret, Corino had a broken eardrum, and Homicide had driven himself full force into the guardrail