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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2528 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

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   2501. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 13, 2022 at 02:01 AM (#6095914)
Again, the primary target of his gripes is a top babyface who just took being called a coward and never responded. What kind of feud involves a heel running down a face who never responds? And then the secondary target is a guy who is never on TV and almost never even on Dark. What kind of feud pits your top star against someone who isn't even shown enough to merit the tag "jobber"?

assuming the plan was to set punk up against MJF, ignoring MJF is a much bigger slight to him than running him down.

but also, not teeing up a specific opponent creates wiggle room to go in any number of different directions.
I just saw this thread pop up on the sidebar, and I just wanted to say: "NXT 2.0"
2.0 was, predictably, a shitshow, but before that, it's not unreasonable to say that NXT was failing to accomplish its stated purpose: developing main event caliber talent.
   2502. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 13, 2022 at 11:03 AM (#6095937)
i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but fwiw, kenny "omega" has been "referred to" as a "peacemaker" in the "backstage" "melee" that "happened" last "sunday".
   2503. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 13, 2022 at 11:07 AM (#6095938)
moving on, since this thread is as active as it's been in a while, i'm gonna go ahead and throw out a link to one of my all-time favorite wrestlemania matches. i'm generally a believer in giving the people what they want, but when you go as far in the other direction as this, it can work just as well.
   2504. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: September 13, 2022 at 05:47 PM (#6095993)
How long before the NWA Western States Heritage Championship (active from June 1987-January 1989) & is dusted off & presented by a member of the Crockett family? ;-p


It's currently under glass...on display as part of the CNN Studio Tour in Atlanta! In a room celebrating all of Ted Turner's business/entertainment ventures. I marked out.
   2505. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: September 13, 2022 at 06:40 PM (#6095999)
i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but fwiw, kenny "omega" has been "referred to" as a "peacemaker" in the "backstage" "melee" that "happened" last "sunday".


Ahh yes Kenny Omega “protector of Larry” and “animal lover”

It's currently under glass...on display as part of the CNN Studio Tour in Atlanta! In a room celebrating all of Ted Turner's business/entertainment ventures. I marked out.


That’s really cool! If I’m ever in Atlanta again, I’ll be sure to take that tour.
   2506. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 15, 2022 at 10:42 PM (#6096380)
"from a business only standpoint, you keep punk and you get rid of everybody else."
   2507. Scott Lange Posted: September 16, 2022 at 12:00 AM (#6096386)
Hey stig, remember how you were writing AEW's epitaph based on last week's 2022/2021 Dynamite ratings comparison? Why no update this week? Oh right:

9/14/22 - 1,175,000
9/15/21 - 1,173,000

Honestly, sweating the weekly ups and down of tv ratings is kinda pointless, but surely we can at least say the sky isn't falling.

I liked but didn't love Wednesday's show. The two semifinals were perfectly good matches but the winners seemed pretty obvious going in. There were three short matches where I feel like the booking is just going in circles (Hobbs, Jungle Boy, the entire women's division). The highlights for me were MJF (as always) and the tag match. The sequence starting at 2:25 here was just incredible. And, I'll say it, I got a kick out of seeing Luigi Primo make a brief appearance. I'm sure stig and Jim Cornette loved it too.
   2508. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 16, 2022 at 12:27 PM (#6096431)
And, I'll say it, I got a kick out of seeing Luigi Primo make a brief appearance. I'm sure stig and Jim Cornette loved it too.

and miro, don't forget miro:
AEW on TV @AEWonTV
Just gonna leave this here… #AEWDynamite
Miro @ToBeMiro
You should have left this on the indies


but also, to the extent that i do have a problem with guys like that getting exposure on national TV, my issue is that it often comes at the expense of more legitimate storylines/wrestlers who i actively want to see. as long as my bread is getting buttered, i can live with #### like that (as opposed to someone like cornette, which isn't a knock on him because his pov on that is no less valid than anyone else's).
Hey stig, remember how you were writing AEW's epitaph based on last week's 2022/2021 Dynamite ratings comparison? Why no update this week? Oh right:

9/14/22 - 1,175,000
9/15/21 - 1,173,000

Honestly, sweating the weekly ups and down of tv ratings is kinda pointless, but surely we can at least say the sky isn't falling.

if you're telling me that AEW performs better when the young bucks (and kenny omega) are not on camera or backstage, color me shocked.
   2509. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 16, 2022 at 12:53 PM (#6096436)
an update on cm punk's various grievances with AEW personnel, as they're continuing to trickle out:


bobby fish:
-- during punk's 2nd ever AEW TV match, fish stepped on punk's GTS finisher by kicking out of it as he was getting pinned.
-- that ending turned a match that had been very good, into a headscratcher, with punk himself turning to the referee after the pin, as if he didn't know what the #### just happened.
-- fish is (at the very least) sympathetic to various Qanon conspiracies, and he has donated money in support of them.
-- fish also happens to be in the young buck's clique.


the danielson/cole debut:
-- both debuts happened after the main event of punk's first AEW PPV, stepping on what should have been his big coming out.
-- by occurring just weeks after punk's own AEW debut, it took steam out of his sails, before he had a chance to ramp up.
-- cole is in the buck's clique.
-- danielson is, at least to some extent, adjacent to the buck's clique, by virtue of his time in PWG.


adam page:
-- while backstage, at some point leading up to page dropping the title to punk, punk told page, to his face, that he would never return the favor and put page over.
-- this probably happened after page "went into business for himself", but that timeline is not confirmed.
-- page, ofc, is part of the young buck's clique.




are these the rantings/receipts of a madman who is extraordinarily sensitive to inconsequential events?
have AEW's EVPs been actively sabotaging punk for as long as he's been in the company?
to find out, tune in next time to dragon ball z.
   2510. Scott Lange Posted: September 16, 2022 at 02:31 PM (#6096461)
are these the rantings/receipts of a madman who is extraordinarily sensitive to inconsequential events?

Do you mean Punk or yourself? Either way, my answer is yes. ;-)

if you're telling me that AEW performs better when the young bucks (and kenny omega) are not on camera or backstage, color me shocked.

Well, I'm not, since they weren't on the show two weeks ago either (the one you said signaled the death of AEW.) But since I've only been back in for a year or so (and basically never heard of Omega/Bucks before then), I have a sincere question - what would be the argument that they are ratings poison? They seem quite popular, and they seem to be good wrestlers and good story tellers. What's not to like? I know people sometimes accuse them of "flippy ####\" - is that it? You prefer wrestlers to be more mat-based? And you think audiences do too?
   2511. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 16, 2022 at 10:28 PM (#6096563)
I have a sincere question - what would be the argument that they are ratings poison? They seem quite popular, and they seem to be good wrestlers and good story tellers. What's not to like? I know people sometimes accuse them of "flippy ####\" - is that it? You prefer wrestlers to be more mat-based? And you think audiences do too?

the argument for them being ratings poison is that ratings consistently drop by 100+K viewers when they show up on AEW TV.


as for what's not to like about them as wrestlers:
-- they look like 7th graders.
-- they have no background in combat sports that could help them plausibly overcome that.
-- their "flippy ####\" is laughably fake.
-- every match they have is "raven's rules", for no reason and with no explanation.
-- the rest of their #### is also laughably fake.
-- just go listen to josh barnett for a few minutes.



what's not to like about them as people:
-- they used their position as executives to get jobs for their friends, with hugely inflated guaranteed salaries, and hundreds/thousands of hours of TV airtime, at the expense of the company they run, and to the detriment of legitimate talent that was marginalized in the process.
-- they named a move after a dirt sheet writer, which is some grade-A brown-nosing teacher's pet bullshit.
-- they use those same dirt sheets to seed unfavorable stories about anyone not in their carpool (if you think that was just a cm punk thing, go find cody rhodes at a bar and see what he has to say after a beer or two...).
-- they tried to freeze out FTR, and jim ross and CM punk (those are just the people who are secure enough to put their names behind it...for now). you want to talk about toxicity? you want to talk about sabotage? there you go.
   2512. Scott Lange Posted: September 17, 2022 at 11:18 AM (#6096611)
the argument for them being ratings poison is that ratings consistently drop by 100+K viewers when they show up on AEW TV.

Is there any evidence for this? I don't see any from a quick google. And your previous evidence of it was that the show pulled a good rating without them on 9/14, when you were proclaiming the rating it pulled without them on 9/7 as tantamount to death.

as for what's not to like about them as wrestlers:

To each their own, I suppose, but none of that bothers me. And I also struggle to see what the allegedly-superior non-"flippy ####\" alternative is. I've watched many hours of pro wrestling, both in the last year and in the '98-'03 time frame, and I don't recall seeing a single match that ever looked anything like genuine combat. And why would I want to? If I wanted to watch something that looked like MMA, I'd watch MMA.

just go listen to josh barnett for a few minutes.

I did! It seems like his argument is that they should be more clear-cut heels rather than "cool heels." I have some sympathy for that - I love a good pure heel. One of the things I love most about MJF is how fully he commits to heelishness, even these last couple weeks when the crowd is rapturous for him. But I think there's plenty of room for different approaches, tweeners, etc. Variety is the spice of life!

(His other argument - that he had to criticize their execution as poor because their moves were too impressive to plausibly not end matches otherwise - isn't really relevant, but seems absurd to me. Just say "wow, amazing kickout, what fortitude." Mission accomplished.)

they tried to freeze out FTR, and jim ross and CM punk

I listened to the Barnett link but you couldn't pay me to listen to Cornette. I have to endure enough racist #### in my life as it is.
   2513. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 17, 2022 at 02:33 PM (#6096630)
Is there any evidence for this? I don't see any from a quick google.
it's shown up in the weekly quarter hours for a while, but i don't know if the information has been aggregated anywhere.
I've watched many hours of pro wrestling, both in the last year and in the '98-'03 time frame
[...]
His other argument - that he had to criticize their execution as poor because their moves were too impressive to plausibly not end matches otherwise - isn't really relevant, but seems absurd to me.
these two points may be more closely related than you realize.
I listened to the Barnett link but you couldn't pay me to listen to Cornette. I have to endure enough racist #### in my life as it is.

unless i'm unaware of something, cornette's animus is more accurately defined as jingoism, rather than racism.

i doubt his hands are clean, but given that he was born in 1960s kentucky, i'd say he rates pretty well on the racism meter, relative to what could be expected.
   2514. Scott Lange Posted: September 17, 2022 at 03:43 PM (#6096637)
Well, there's

Jim Cornette resigned from his position as NWA's color commentator Wednesday after making a racist comment on Tuesday's episode of NWA Power . . . During the episode, Cornette called Trevor Murdoch "the only man I've ever known that can strap a bucket of fried chicken on his back and ride a motor scooter across Ethiopia."
and there's "Cornette racist rant" with 8 minutes of slurs on youtube.

And then if racism bores you there's always
Jim Cornette . . . is in hot water after making homophobic comments about out gay All Elite Wrestling wrestler Sonny Kiss on the May 30 edition of his podcast, The Jim Cornette Experience.

“Then here comes Sonny Kiss who apparently got off his day job at the drag-show at the f**king Tropicana. They’re not explaining any of this... The transvestite or exotico as they would say at AAA,” said Cornette.

For the record, the exoticos of lucha libre are actually male wrestlers, usually gay, that wrestle in drag as a means of subverting long-held Latin ideals of machismo while elevating LGBTQ representation in the ring. Exotico is not one of the offensive terms Cornette used to describe the flamboyant athlete.

Cornette continued his regressive language throughout his review, criticizing AEW’s use of a female referee, mocking the minds AEW for figuratively “jerking off” all over each other and making numerous references to “anal rape” while describing a match between the Young Bucks and the Lucha Bros. But his comments about Kiss remained the most inflammatory.


unless i'm unaware of something, cornette's animus is more accurately defined as jingoism, rather than racism.

i doubt his hands are clean, but given that he was born in 1960s kentucky, i'd say he rates pretty well on the racism meter, relative to what could be expected.

I guess we have different meters.
   2515. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: September 17, 2022 at 09:31 PM (#6096691)
Corny is a bit. Probably the last living kayfabe. He is wrestling's version of a shock jock. He shits on everything in an incredibly exaggerated fashion. None of that provides an excuse for things the guy has said nor is it a remark on if he is/isn't a bigot. But I think, strangely enough, wrestling fans (of all people) often forget the dude's whole schtick is the classic "yourself cranked up to 11". It's a work.

Now the AdFreeShows lineup of podcasts has some real gems on it. I can listen to Regal tell stories for hours on end.
   2516. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 17, 2022 at 10:39 PM (#6096713)
Well, there's
[...]and there's "Cornette racist rant" with 8 minutes of slurs on youtube.

i'm kind of surprised you didn't dig up anything worse.

i mean, that's not to say his comments are defensible, but i was expecting to hear something that came out of his mouth in the heat of the moment, where that #### is at its ugliest.
During the episode, Cornette called Trevor Murdoch "the only man I've ever known that can strap a bucket of fried chicken on his back and ride a motor scooter across Ethiopia."
the gratuitousness of that comment is more offensive to me than the racism. like, just, why?
I guess we have different meters.
or maybe you have a much higher opinion of the average person born in 1960s kentucky.

based on the amount of laughter coming from the audience while cornette is in the middle of his "racist rant", i'm not convinced my opinion of them is mistaken.
   2517. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 17, 2022 at 11:33 PM (#6096732)
Jim Cornette . . . is in hot water after making homophobic comments about out gay All Elite Wrestling wrestler Sonny Kiss on the May 30 edition of his podcast, The Jim Cornette Experience.

“Then here comes Sonny Kiss who apparently got off his day job at the drag-show at the f**king Tropicana. They’re not explaining any of this... The transvestite or exotico as they would say at AAA,” said Cornette.

that's kind of sloppy reporting from outsports, imo. cornette's comment there isn't homophobic; it's transphobic.

but even to the extent that cornette's comments were transphobic, his core offense was using outdated terminology that he does not appear to have used as a slur in that instance.


fwiw, cornette did apologize to sonny kiss and his husband. outsports mentioned that in their article, but they may not have an appreciation for how many people cornette offends, and how few of those people he bothers to offer any kind of apology to.
   2518. Scott Lange Posted: September 18, 2022 at 11:47 PM (#6096850)
Corny is a bit. Probably the last living kayfabe. He is wrestling's version of a shock jock. He shits on everything in an incredibly exaggerated fashion. None of that provides an excuse for things the guy has said nor is it a remark on if he is/isn't a bigot. But I think, strangely enough, wrestling fans (of all people) often forget the dude's whole schtick is the classic "yourself cranked up to 11". It's a work.


based on the amount of laughter coming from the audience while cornette is in the middle of his "racist rant"


Yeah, yeah. He doesn't mean it. It's all a joke. It's just locker room talk.

No thanks.
   2519. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 19, 2022 at 10:38 AM (#6096863)
Yeah, yeah. He doesn't mean it. It's all a joke. It's just locker room talk.

No thanks.

i'm not going to defend cornette on this, and i'm not gonna tell you you're wrong to feel that way. i'm also not going to link the video where new jack popped unannounced into one of his shoot interviews, and say 'see, cornette has a black friend; he can't be racist'.


i'm just going to say, whether it's because cornette had a change of heart in the ~30 years since that clip was recorded, or whether he just feels that he needs to hide it for PR reasons, the fact that jim cornette isn't dropping gratuitous n-bombs in his anecdotes anymore is a big ####### win for society.
   2520. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 19, 2022 at 11:12 AM (#6096870)
when i mentioned a "racism meter" in [2513], i wasn't referring to anything specifically, but there is some aspect of "(pseudo-)scientific" classification to the way i think about this stuff. the factors that guide my thinking are something like this:

-- what is the target, and what is the cause, of the animus?
-- do the actions/words inflict/attempt to inflict acute harm?
-- is the subject unrepentant/unremorseful?


the reason why this doesn't offend me:
"the only man I've ever known that can strap a bucket of fried chicken on his back and ride a motor scooter across Ethiopia."

1: there's no specific target here. it's not even a "joke" about ethiopeans/africans; it's just a lazy repackaging of a tired racial stereotype. it's ####, but it's a much different variety of #### (imo) than, for instance, calling guatemala a '######## country'.

2: there's no harm here. it's not a personal attack; it's not a call to action; it's not fearmongering; it's not support for any kind of hate based policy. again, it's still ####, but there's a significant difference between this and, for instance, john fetterman being slandered by this bullshit.

3: ymmv, but the fact that cornette doesn't drop gratuitous n-bombs on every show (and the fact that he did actually apologize to sonny kiss) shows me that, no, cornette is not unrepentant, and no he is not unremorseful. he should still do better, and he shouldn't just be let off the hook for what he's done/said, but he's also not doubling down on it and continuing to perpetuate whatever harm he's caused.



again, i'm not going to tell you're wrong to feel how you do about cornette, i'm just explaining why i don't necessarily feel the same way.
   2521. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 19, 2022 at 11:32 AM (#6096874)
as for cornette's sonny kiss comments:
-- what is the target, and what is the cause, of the animus?
-- do the actions/words inflict/attempt to inflict acute harm?
-- is the subject unrepentant/unremorseful?


1: cornette did specifically target sonny kiss with a transphobic slur.

2: no, there was no acute harm done to anyone. and no, it was not an deliberate attempt to cause harm; cornette just didn't know the language had shifted.

cornette does legitimately hate that "exoticos" exist within the business of professional wreslting, but that hate isn't specific to "exoticos", it's an extension of his hatred for "comedy wrestling", in general, and #### that looks fake, specifically.

3: when cornette found out that sonny kiss (and his husband) were hurt by his comments, he apologized. it may not have been a perfect apology, but cornette didn't double down on his error, and he didn't use his position to incite further hatred towards sonny kiss.



the way i see it, cornette's response is exactly what we should want from people who find themselves in his position. if more bigots responded to criticism the way cornette did, this world would be a much better place. i think it is wrong-headed and counter-productive to hold this particular incident against him.


(i feel a bit more strongly about these points than the ones in the previous post)
   2522. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: September 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM (#6097036)
Yeah, yeah. He doesn't mean it. It's all a joke. It's just locker room talk.


"Yourself cranked up to 11" would, in fact, imply he's awfully backwards to begin with....but take from it what you wanna.
   2523. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 21, 2022 at 12:15 PM (#6097299)
there's a great feature on dax harwood, via the ringer:
Harwood is a proud graduate of the University of North Carolina-Wilmington, where he majored in Business Communications and minored in English (he’s quite literally run through a brick wall for fair wages for teachers). [...] “I’m so glad that I took the path that I have taken because it’s got me to where I’ve gotten, and I’m so blessed to have the life that I have, the family that I have, the job that I have. But, man, maybe at the time, I wish it was a little easier than what it was.” [...] Like most American college students in the early 2000s, Harwood and his family were affected by the looming recession. Both of his parents lost their jobs in the same year and were unable to assist with tuition going forward. To pay for school and training, Dax would hold three jobs at once, often sleeping in his car near or on campus between shifts to fulfill all of his responsibilities.
(The name FTR is a play on the fourth-wall-breaking tirades that the Bucks would give on their YouTube series Being the Elite that would include things like “Fuck the Revival” prior to Harwood and Wheeler signing with AEW.)

“I told [CM punk], ‘I want to tap out to you.’ And the reason was because I felt the shift of change with the fans and I felt them starting to get sympathy for [FTR] and starting to like us. If I tapped out to him, I knew I could do it in a way that would make the fans feel even more sympathetic to me. [.I] tapped out to Claudio. I tapped out to Adam Cole. Jungle Boy. I tapped out to Punk, I tapped out all my singles matches. Some guys are apprehensive about tapping out because they think it makes them look weak, but I know I can build myself around the tapout and make the people feel even more sorry for me and more sympathetic for me.”
“[The audience doesn’t] know what a ####### 450 feels like. They don’t know what a Go To Sleep feels like, or a Sharpshooter or whatever. But they know what failure feels like, and they know what frustration feels like. If I can get that emotion out of them, man, I got them. [...That], to me, is what is special about professional wrestling and being a wrestler.”[/b
   2524. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 22, 2022 at 09:41 PM (#6097576)
i forgot how much i love vickie guerrero.

   2525. RJ in TO Posted: September 22, 2022 at 10:01 PM (#6097579)
I really do not like AEW bringing in Saraya as an allegedly active wrestler. I know she says she's been cleared by her own doctors, but neck injuries really don't seem like the sort of thing where you should be pushing her luck, and this feels like the sort of thing which ends with her getting paralyzed.
   2526. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 22, 2022 at 10:41 PM (#6097590)
I really do not like AEW bringing in Saraya as an allegedly active wrestler. I know she says she's been cleared by her own doctors, but neck injuries really don't seem like the sort of thing where you should be pushing her luck, and this feels like the sort of thing which ends with her getting paralyzed.
neck injuries? in kenny omega's women's division? that's unpossible.
   2527. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 23, 2022 at 12:24 PM (#6097638)
"tony khan gave permission to cm punk to shoot at the media scrum, having no idea he would attack half the roster."

"AEW did not have grounds to fire cm punk for 'gross misconduct' and could only slap punk with a 30 day unpaid suspension."

"[punk has] creative control on his deal, which means they can't even fire him for breaching contract by refusing to do jobs"

"[cm punk] in 13 months with AEW, will make 417K per match."

"[AEW] can't get out of this deal. they have to pay him while he's injured. [...] deals are deals."


-- not jim cornette
   2528. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 23, 2022 at 07:54 PM (#6097692)
AEW Botches @aewbotches
AEW Grand Slam featured more WWE Superstars than #AEW originals:-

WWE- Paige, Daniel Bryan, Dean Ambrose, Cesaro, Chris Jericho, Keith Lee, Billy Gunn, William Regal, Toni Storm, Ember Moon, Neville, Serena Deeb

AEW - The Acclaimed, Britt Baker, Pockets

Once again #WWE wins!
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