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Monday, October 27, 2014
OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014
Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!
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yup.
i wouldn't be shocked if the FTC was willing to step in, based on their actions with microsoft/activision/blizzard, and given the fact that MBS has yet to pay any real price or show any contritition for dismembering an american journalist. that might be wishful thinking, though.
This takeover would have been a great angle for Raw, if the NWO hadn't already done it 25 years ago.
we've known for a while that FTR's contracts are done in april, and according to dax, tony khan has given them "the next few months" off. they've already dropped the ROH, AAA and NJPW titles, so their commitments to those promotions are behind them, so unless they resign with AEW (always possible), that's probably it for them.
You absolutely predicted my reaction while reading this.
But in terms of numbers changing during a broadcast, are there really people who are watching live tv and channel surfing? I can't imagine doing that. Twenty years ago, cable boxes ruined the experience b/c there would be lag with each flip. But then the ever increasing commercial break times made surfing impossible. I remember flipping around and just always hitting commercials.
If I was into wrestling (I no longer am), and the product was hit or miss, I would just DVR it and skip over the boring parts. Why aren't people doing that?!?!
people also turn the show off when they see something that disgusts them (ie: AEW's womens' division), and those people don't usually come back.
but yeah, i don't think there are as many people yo-yo'ing between channels as there used to be.
probably for the same reason you don't: why would anyone put so much effort into watching something they don't care about enough to watch live?
steve austin.
they're english, so i'm sure they're on about something...
i haven't updated the thread, so i might as well throw this in, for posterity:
rumors of WWE's sale to saudi arabia have been somewhat exaggerated.
there is some speculation that vince/vince's people leaked the saudi rumor as a way to quell (read: threaten) WWE's investors, ahead of the bidding process. that selling to saudi arabia would be vince's way of blowing off everyone who doesn't want him around anymore.
good people there, huh...
oh, wait...
Man, still so sad about Jay.
for this kind of blackballing to happen over 10 year old tweets, words that the briscoes have already apologized for, with jay in the morgue and his kid is in the hospital, with life-threatening injuries...it's beyond disgraceful.
not to go tin-foil hat, but i can't help but think "someone" in AEW didn't want the briscoes to get signed after tony khan bought RoH a year ago, and they fed this #### to some know-nothing television executive to make sure the briscoes couldn't get hired. and then when this happened, the damage had already been done. wear your seatbelts, people.
jacob fatu (cousin of the WWE's uso brothers) has also "allegedly" been "blackballed" by WWE, over his decade-old teenage criminal record. this guy is a ####### stud, and he's been stranded in the wilderness of MLW for the last half-decade, because...reasons.
Also, I'm going to MITB in London in July. I wish it were at a stadium instead of O2.
a few "behind the scenes" tidbits about this:
-- tony khan went to the mat to get this done. good for him. maybe he's finally starting to smarten up to the business.
-- this is not a one-time thing. mark briscoe has been cleared to appear on TBS/TNT moving forward.
last time i tried watching AEW dynamite, i noped out within 5-10 minutes. let's see how they do this time...
and why????
is starks supposed to be the heel here? why the #### is he prancing on the top rope in the middle of a ####### match? he's not stupid. he's not a ####### child. he's supposed to be a straight-laced ass-kicker, so why is he doing that ####### spot?
and so now, in a TV match that had:
- a tiger bomb
- a crucifix bomb
- a buckle bomb
- a hurricanrana into a guardrail
- some top rope suplex thing
...that soggy fart was the finish.
who is booking this bullshit?
jungle boy has the hairline of an aging sammy hagar.
matt hardy looks like half of his blood supply has been replaced by formaldehyde.
noone needs this #### to be competitive. danielson is the ####### star here. you can make him look like the biggest badass in your company by tapping this lower-middle card bodybuilder out clean in the middle of the ring, in less than 5 minutes of match time. but nope...this #### goes on.
that's a nice touch with the bell-ringing.
or, i guess you can do whatever the #### that was.
wrestling fans love buying PPVs where one half of the main event has a "broken" arm.
he should be doing this promo in the center of the ring at the 8PM/9PM spot, when you have the best chance to hook in new viewers.
what is this, a dickens' novel?
main event time.
briscoe v. lethal.
let's ####### go.
jay lethal can barely keep the tears in his eyes.
jericho and guevara could actually do some good heeling here. run in, get their asses kicked, and leave briscoe and lethal standing in the center of the ring to close the ####### show.
it's damn near impossible to make a spot like that feel like it's more than a make-a-wish, but lethal managed to get there.
seth rollins:
I have always been a Cody skeptic. I don't dislike him, but I have never seen him as a main eventer or a babyface. But for whatever reason, since he came back to WWE, it has clicked and he's getting the reactions he has never had anywhere. The pops for him have been huge and the quality of his matches has been way better than anywhere else he has worked. Part of me wonders if there's some pendulum effect of the pure whitemeat babyface. It became so cliche for guys to have big pyro entrances, hype up the crowd, dress in expensive suits, etc, that it stopped feeling special and fans rebelled against it. So, WWE stopped doing it and the top babyfaces had kind of a minimalistic or low-fi presentation (Punk, Bryan, Becky; neither Roman nor Brock was ever really a face). Cody has the babyface gimmick dialed up to 11. Maybe it has been long enough since the Super Cena era that people are ready for that again? This idea is half baked, but I'm trying to reconcile how his presentation feels both very cliche and formulaic, yet somehow current and fresh.
WWE production is extremely good at sweetening crowd noise (especially on smackdown when it's not aired live). i don't know if that's happening here because i don't watch much professional wrestling right now, but it can sneak by if you're not aware that they do it.the problem with supercena was never his presentation.
looking back now, 15 years later, i think the clear problem with "supercena" is that the next generation of WWE stars didn't exist. the reason why orton/cena/HHH swapped spit with each other for a decade isn't because they were holding other people down; it's because there wasn't anyone to hold down.
WWE had punk and danielson. and then there's reigns. but after that....the miz? john morrison? mcintyre? moxley? ryback? shanemus? thwagger? tyler black? alberto el chapo? ugh. WWE's scouting, developmental and booking were just the absolute shits in the decade between cornette's OVW and HHH/HBK's NXT. supercena wasn't the cause; he was a symptom.
huh. so that happened.
AEW dynamite ratings from february 8:
- 1st segment kicked off at 1.05MM viewers (MJF v. take.)
- finish of the MJF match (+random ####, +women's division): 1MM
- the end of the first hour (jericho bullshit) lost ~150K viewers.
+ 9pm segment: 50+K viewers came back for danielson. 920K viewers
- 150K viewers fled because of "the elite". 780K viewers
- final segment of the night (acclaimed v. ass boys): 780K viewers
- overall rating: 899K viewers
the numbers continue to tell a clear story:
the elite don't move ratings.
jericho doesn't move ratings.
MJF can.
danielson can.
punk can.
#bookeroftheyear
-- back the elite, back jericho, back adam page, back sammy guevara, and take AEW back to 2019.
or
-- back cm punk, back FTR, back eddie kingston, back william regal, and take AEW into 2023.
oh, what could have been.
"when they won the tag belts, the people were mad. and when you think about where wrestling is, you want people to be mad; you want people to feel a certain way."
-- dax harwood, on the ass boys beating the acclaimed
It certainly seems like everyone on this list has/had a pretty big role in their own creative. I don't know how to allocate blame or credit, but the creative for the Elite and Jericho has been very bad going back to at least last year. If that's all from TK, then yes, he deserves lots of scorn.
even if tony khan is not directing the creative (though i'm sure he'd dispute that idea), he's booking the show. it's clear from the ratings that jericho drives viewers away. he's over-exposed, and his act is obnoxious (not in the good way), and he's lost the good will that his name used to carry*. he needs to go away for a year, and let people forget about him.
the elite had a 7 match series against a bunch of wheeler garcias, ate up a ton of TV time, got a ton of meltzstars (i assume), but left no impression whatsoever, and had no impact on the ratings (both while it was going on, and in the aftermath). it was a flop. everything these three have done since...FTR...has been a flop.
and to separate omega from the bucks for a minute, the guy's heart isn't in AEW; it's in japan. and because of that, AEW is never going to get his best work in the ring (or anywhere else). and this is the guy they chose to be an EVP (which btw: letting these ####### people into management is AEW's original sin).
*whether that's because of jericho's recent shitty creative, or his vampiric tendencies towards other talent (starks and kingston most recently), or his vocal support for donald trump...who's to say.
i'm not going to do this every week, but by gawd:
AEW dynamite ratings from february 15:
- 1st segment kicked off at 938K viewers (8 man tag ft. jeff jarrett, sanjay dutt and orange juice)
- everything until mark briscoe: 825K viewers.
+ mark briscoe: 900K viewers.
- 9pm segment: 850K viewers (MJF promo, and things)
- 100+K viewers fled because of brian cage/jungle boy, "the elite", and jericho. 725K viewers
- final segment of the night (wymyn): 700K viewers
- overall rating: 824K viewers
oragn juice vs. wheeler utah
20 tag team battle royal
paile vs blue
moxley vs. uno
does wardlow even work there anymore?
for posterity (and not at all because i forgot what i'd said): (i think) this is what prompted the above quoted callout:
AEW dynamite is down 350K average viewers from the night punk was suspended
AEW rampage is down 600K average viewers from the night punk debuted
he was in the audience at NJPW's battle in the valley. i don't remember him going to many indy wrestling shows during his 7-year sojourn, so this does add some smoke to the rumors that he'll be coming back to AEW.
i'm still hesitant to get my hopes up, but it seems like a clear trial balloon for his potential return.
if punk does come back, here's my little booking insight: group him with wardlow and FTR, and let them heel it up on their own show.
put those 4 guys in the center of the ring every friday night at 10PM. you will get ratings. you will make money.
speaking of friday night ratings: another new all-time low for rampage.
- eric bischoff, on tony khan
(I hate having even cursory knowledge of this, but steagles-of-it-all should be countered to some degree)
Where I am with AEW - after watching consistently since Dynamite started (including spending sixty smackers on a few ppvs...crazy), I was probably nearing an end point anyway, but the Punk/Elite blow-up bummer got me there and despite continuing to record the weekly shows, I've watched only the occasional match or angle since the summer. Good-to-great wrestling in a vacuum isn't gonna do much for me and I have the same booking complaints as everyone else (despite not watching, I still follow some of the online chatter, same for like 22+ years now). MJF's current angle again centers on his challenger needing to win several matches in a row to get the title shot?? How can this be allowed to happen??
here's the early information, fwiw:
so, yeah, that's not nearly as dire as i expected. it might be a blip, or it might an indication that AEW's audience is stabilizing. time will tell.
fwiw, i don't want AEW to suck. unfortunately, AEW continues to make big decisions that do suck, and i'm not the kind of person to look past that.
i don't blame AEW for doing things i don't like (pushing moxley, taking the belts off the acclaimed; whatever the #### warjoe was); i blame them for doing things i hate (keeping the briscoes off TV; refusing to put FTR over the young bucks; continuing to push adam page after he blew up their main event; that pizza ######; orange julius; a women's division that's trying to kill people; not giving us punk v. danielson; utah and garcia; jericho; jericho; jericho; killing off eddie kingston).
AEW could be a really ####### good wrestling promotion, and i ####### hate that they deliberately choose not to be.
pushing moxley - I don't know that I'd, say, follow him to another promotion, and everyone's mileage may vary on his tough guy/BCC persona, but I think his consistency and reliability have been huge for the promotion. And his experience, which doesn't always mean good things (see: Jericho).
taking the belts off the acclaimed - I'm not watching now, but yeah, that decision seems so weird. And it didn't even result from a Billy Gunn turn?
whatever the #### warjoe was - I'm open to the idea that Wardlow was just drawing heat from MJF, but like complaints about the handling of many wrestlers, from what I remember, he was put into a brief feud with Jay Lethal (I think? and, if so, ugh) and then...they kind of just stopped showcasing him? He may have only had a few title defenses? So I don't even know how viable Wardlow is as a medium-term prospect.
keeping the briscoes off TV - #coolfact, I've never seen a Briscoes match. Had certainly heard of them, and the death of one of them is obviously terrible. Saw the recent match against Lethal and that was fine. But there was a recent promo from Mark I saw going around and I couldn't make it more than a few seconds before turning it off.
refusing to put FTR over the young bucks - Not a killer for me, but yeah, so many missed opportunities like that.
continuing to push adam page after he blew up their main event - Is this a reference to him going on paternity leave in September '21? Or making one remark in a promo against Punk that even I didn't pick up on? And then Punk had hissy fits over it months later?
that pizza ###### - Scratching chin emoji
orange julius - I'm cool with OC, but he's another who seems rarely used (tough to count Rampage, if he's frequently appearing there)
a women's division that's trying to kill people - A true nightmare
not giving us punk v. danielson - Another missed opportunity, sure, but Punk was around, what, from September to May? And the best part of the promotion that entire time. So I don't have that as a big sin. Had a great run and then his body broke down and he set things on fire.
utah and garcia - Good God, was Yuta's intro to the BCC like a full year ago now? Good idea, had initial potential, and then...nothing (well, more focus on ROH belts, I guess).
jericho; jericho; jericho - A real problem!
killing off eddie kingston - Maybe there are substantive things behind the scenes to explain his handling, but man. Just putting a focus on Kingston and Miro would help so so much.
AEW could be a really ####### good wrestling promotion, and i ####### hate that they deliberately choose not to be. - There are material and long-term concerns with the booking and management style, and it's easier to say what's wrong with something. But while I agree that they could be so much better, and that yes, this wouldn't be possible without funding from papa snowman, it's still impressive what they've been able to accomplish in the last few years.
their style may be an acquired taste, but they were...are so ####### good at being themselves. like ECW, the briscoes' catalog of work is going to be one of those things that people keep visiting and discovering, and revisiting and rediscovering, for decades to come. they are that good.
page made one remark on the mic, but i guarantee there were a hundred more floating around behind the curtains. we've already heard some of it.
punk didn't have that reaction with eddie kingston. punk didn't have that reaction with MJF. punk didn't even have that reaction after bobby fish took liberties with him during their match.
"warjoe" was a 6 week long tag team run of wardlow and samoa joe. you may have missed it if you blinked...which is the point i'm making.
as for what happened to wardlow himself, they put the TV title on him, and then they stopped putting him on TV.
booker of the year: tony khan
mark of the year: every single ####### person who voted for the above stated "winners". and dave meltzer.
again; i don't want to do this every week, because the ratings aren't the problem; the ratings are only a symptom of the problem.
the problem is jericho; the problem is the women's division; the problem is 7', 300+ lbs big bill colin w. nitro cass morrisey jobbing out to 5'8, 135 lbs orange juicer; the problem is whatever the #### is going on with wardlow, samoa joe and powerhouse hobbs; the problem is every single shiny new toy that cocaine khan reads about in the observer and then shoehorns into his vanity project; the problem is the 2 hours of dogshit wrestling that ensures noone cares about AEW's main event world champion.
*mostly because it would get the elite out of AEW's executive offices, but also because the WWE would just ####### job them out to sheamus within 6 weeks of debuting.
-- punk should have beat the #### out of bobby fish when fish went into business for himself by kicking out of punk's finish
-- punk should have beat the #### out of adam page when page went into business for himself by calling punk's matches "masturbatory bret hart tributes"
-- punk should have slapped the taste out of tony khan's mouth when khan booked him to lose a world title match on live TV in 3 minutes, despite punk being injured.
-- punk should have beat the #### out the elite when they burst into his locker room, kicking a door into his dog's head and knocking 2 teeth out of its mouth. oh...right....
i could go on, but then i'd fall into the trap that cm punk continues to fall into: even if you're right, noone wants to hear you whine about being mistreated.
-- cody rhodes jumped to WWE because his role in AEW was marginalized by his fellow executives.
-- william regal fled AEW in the dead of night, despite being the pivotal fulcrum of AEW's ongoing main event storyline between MJF and moxley/danielson.
-- MJF had that little sojourn over the summer.
-- FTR gets frozen out of AEW's locker room once a week because of various imagined transgressions.
-- miro went AWOL.
-- andrade: gone after beating down sammy guevara.
-- eddie kingston also slapped the #### out of guevara backstage.
-- bryan danielson lost his smile.
i think i heard this from brian last, but tony khan seems to have a very jeff wilpon way of doing business.
"Could go on"? WTF does resurrecting a dead thread to endlessly parrot Cornette talking points to yourself constitute if not "going on"?
But sure, AEW's dying and the ratings are a disaster. That's clearly why WBD keep asking them for more and more content.
Also, what does it cost to produce a weekly 2-hour primetime TV wrestling show? It's not free. And you have to build/maintain a roster around Punk that gets the most out of him.
Instead of saying he's worth $52m/yr to the company, he's worth whatever Warner pays TK minus the cost of producing the show, minus the cost of paying the rest of that roster. I'm guessing that's still well north of his salary, so it's clearly an endorsement of his marketability.
i don't think the specific number itself is what matters. whether it's 10 million or 30 million or 50 million, the bigger takeaway is that dave meltzer is claiming that the revenue wouldn't exist at all without cm punk.
FTR
the ass boys
powerhouse hobbs
claudio
darby allen
hook
brian pillman jr
shawn spears
ethan page
orange juice
big cass
brian last, on "AEW collision featuring thunder rosa, miro [...] andrade"
this ####### thing is being tee'd up to go tits up. the "elite" want it to fail; cm punk seems to have abandoned it at the 11th hour; it's being saddled with every other malcontent tony has under contract. this is some 'springtime for hitler' ####.
at this point, with as much ####### as punk has dealt with, he's going to be one missed meal away from destroying that entire ####### company anytime he touches a mic, for the next decade.
That will certainly be must see tv!
One random thing I’ve noticed on Excalibur’s commentary is that when the Young Bucks do a super kick, Excalibur calls it a super kick but when other AEW talents do the same super kick, Excalibur refers to it as a “thrust kick”
"i'm happy to be in england, not least of all because i can tell you a little story in the language it truly deserves:
i'm gonna tell you the truth about 3 limey ####### ##### that broke into my office and kicked the teeth out of my poor, innocent, loving dog..."
this is why certain people in AEW are doing everything they can to make sure punk never comes back. it's also why those certain people will never agree to work with punk.
because whenever punk says those magic words, there's no coming back for those remorseless dog kicking pieces of ####.
"i held lenny's paw during his 4 hour facial reconstruction surgery, not knowing if he'd ever be the same again, not knowing if this would be his last day on earth. that happened because of 3 dog ####### ##### that call themselves EVPs in this company."
try to imagine what happens when kansas hits after that ####### line. cm punk may not be the big show, but those 3 backyard tumblers aren't ray ####### traylor.
no business will ever happen between 3 of these 4 people. unless i'm wrong.
jeff jarrett
billy gunn
matt hardy
jeff hardy
christian
sabu
2023
"People in AEW are already pissed at CM Punk for an interview that hasn’t even come out yet"
punk saying page gave him a chipped tooth in their PPV match is new information, though.
i'm coming around to the idea that rush has the right approach for dealing with these people. just beat the #### out of them in the ring, because they can't defend themselves and they'll probably even like it. hopefully FTR took some notes on that.
i'm hoping the 1st segment starts with samoa joe (or maybe miro) hitting cm punk from behind with a literal pipe before punk even gets into the ring. save the speeches for another night; tonight's show needs to be about establishing a dangerous main event level heel to challenge punk.
okay, then.
and this is why certain people fought so hard to try to keep him off TV.
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