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Monday, July 23, 2018

OTP 2018 July 23: How sports and American politics made each other

In January 1942, as the United States committed itself fully to World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt decided that baseball, then the national pastime, should sustain civilian morale during the lengthy struggle ahead. He implored its commissioner, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, to make sure the games went on, despite worldwide armed conflict. And so they did. Professional baseball players, Roosevelt argued, “are a definite recreational asset.”

Roosevelt did not extend that consideration to professional football players, whose sport did not register politically. As a result, the National Football League nearly shut its doors during World War II. So many players were called to serve that several franchises had to merge. In fact, the league didn’t take off until it closely associated itself with national politics. For the past half century, the intertwining of American football and politics has sustained both pastimes.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 23, 2018 at 08:42 AM | 1431 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, off topic, politics

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   401. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5715430)
Here's another one for YR:
Shaun King
14 hrs ·

As you may know, on late Sunday evening, while riding the train in Oakland, a white man targeted two young Black women on the train, without ever saying a word to them, and killed one – a beautiful young soul named Nia Wilson, an 18 year old high school student, and critically injured her sister – stabbing and slashing them both with a knife – then simply walking away.

I spent all day yesterday doing everything I could to make this story into national news and was prepared this morning to come on and talk about how we needed to work harder to find Nia’s killer, but I am glad to report that at about 6pm West Coast time, John Lee Cowell, a brutal man with a history of violence across his entire life, was arrested and charged with Nia’s murder.

I wanna comment on a few things about this case that grieve me.

Nia Wilson, above all, was a teenage girl. She was a high school senior – the exact same age of my oldest daughter. And yesterday, after just a few hours of sharing her story, I saw something truly sick starting to unfold. First, a local news station in the Bay Area shared an image of Nia holding what looked like a gun. Why did they share that image? What were they trying to convey? And, as it turns out, she wasn’t holding a gun in that image, it was a cell phone case with a gun handle. It was a basically a gag – and the local news showed it like it said something about Nia’s character. She literally posted nearly 1,000 wonderful photos of her life on Instagram and Facebook, and they chose that one.

Even in death, local news media finds a way to demean us. It’s why I believe so much in having our own outlets, our own platforms, our own morning shows, where we define our own stories and narratives without that type of ugliness.

Secondly, last night in Oakland thousands of people, including members of Nia’s own family, showed up to her outdoor vigil. Now I don’t need to explain this to our listeners, but this was a moment of pain, and grief, and support. And white supremacists from the group Proud Boys, wearing red Make American Great Again hats, literally showed up to interrupt the vigil.

Let me pause right here for a moment.

Never – in the entire history of this country – will you find an example of white people coming together to grieve the brutal murder of their loved one – the day after it happened – only to have their grief physically interrupted by belligerent Black folk telling them that they are worthless. It’s never happened. It never will happen.

How cruel, how evil, how heartless, how crass, how foul do you have to be, how rotten must you be from the inside out, how dry and dead must your soul be – to have the idea that you want to interrupt grieving people and demean them the day after their loved one was murdered?

I wanna linger here for a moment because I think it gives us a real glimpse into the sick psychology of exactly who we are dealing with and fighting against. They interrupt our grief because they don’t even really see us as fully human.

Let me close with this final thought.

This morning I saw the video of the arrest of John Lee Cowell. Police don’t draw their guns. They don’t slam him to the concrete and put their knees into his back while putting on his handcuffs. They don’t Taser him. They don’t choke him.

You’d think they were arresting a man for writing a bad check or stealing a shirt from a department store.

And so often after we see a horrible incident of police brutality against Black folk, we talk about how American police need more training and better training. I’ve said that myself, but police show us over and over and over again – with white men who are considered armed and dangerous – who’ve just brutally murdered people – that they are fully willing and able to remain calm, and cool, and collected, and methodical – whenever they feel like it.

All these years we thought they needed to be trained on how to make a peaceful arrest – and it turns out they’re great at it – even with the most vicious and violent murderers – if they’re white.

We’re not saying that the police should’ve beaten or choked or shot or maimed or Tasered this man, we’re saying that we want unarmed, non-violent Black folk to get the same treatment American police are so willing able to give dangerous white murderers.
   402. tshipman Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:04 AM (#5715435)
It's a bleak kind of hilarious that today audio surfaced of the President demonstrating guilt in a felony campaign finance violation regarding paying a mistress ... and it doesn't meaningfully impact his impeachment odds.
   403. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:20 AM (#5715437)
Trump's America

Cops called on women nursing their kids at pool

Two Minnesota women who were confronted at a public pool for breastfeeding say they plan to file a discrimination lawsuit. And over the weekend, dozens of other moms launched their own, special protest outside the pool to support the two women.

Last Wednesday, Stephanie Buchanan and Mary Davis were in the kiddie pool with their children at the Aquatic Center in Mora, about 60 Miles north of Minneapolis. When Buchanan's three-month-old son, Roman, got hungry, Buchanan started nursing him.

"A patron came up, a lady at the pool, and told me that I needed to cover up," Buchanan says.

Davis then started breastfeeding her child in solidarity. A pool employee asked them to cover up or move to the locker room. They refused and decided to leave the pool. That's when a police officer approached them.

"I said 'Minnesota state law protects me to feed my baby anywhere that I need to,'" Buchanan says. "He said, 'I understand, and I let the establishment know, but they reserve the right to ask you to leave.'"


What kind of sick lowlife calls the police on a nursing mother?


Thanks, Trump!
   404. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:30 AM (#5715438)
It's a bleak kind of hilarious that today audio surfaced of the President demonstrating guilt in a felony campaign finance violation regarding paying a mistress ... and it doesn't meaningfully impact his impeachment odds.

Almost as bleak is that a long-time Harvard Law School professor already has called this disclosure a nothing-burger.
   405. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:15 AM (#5715442)
for people over ~40, "Socialism" means "The Soviet Union"


Obviously stated by someone under 40. Socialism meant Sweden then, too. The Soviets were godless, murderous communists.

Still, one of my friends parents called me a communist for discussing UBI, Pelosi and Warren are proclaimed capitalists, and Russia is our mortal enemy, so nothing's really changed.
   406. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:21 AM (#5715444)
And Blacks will always be less than human in a country where their ancestors were brought over in slave ships. You can ammend the 3/5s Compromise, but you cannot erase it.
   407. Chicago Joe Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:34 AM (#5715446)
   408. Chicago Joe Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:35 AM (#5715448)
Jess: it’s our responsibility to make it right.
   409. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 03:56 AM (#5715453)
@walid
Words of wisdom on the idea of a US war with #Iran after #Trump's tweet to Rouhani. Tucker Carlson may be the only sane voice in American mainstream media when it comes to US interventionism and foreign wars.
   410. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:23 AM (#5715459)
Here's another one for YR


I don’t see what this has to do with me.

White Guilt is for the goyim.
   411. . Posted: July 25, 2018 at 06:49 AM (#5715460)
And Blacks will always be less than human in a country where their ancestors were brought over in slave ships. You can ammend the 3/5s Compromise, but you cannot erase it.


Play that guilty music, white boy.
   412. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:22 AM (#5715463)
White Guilt is for the goyim


Play that guilty music, white boy.


How does it feel to share a coke and a snark with SBB, Mr. Redneck? Or is it Mr. Pilate?
   413. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 07:24 AM (#5715464)
Weren’t we replying to two different comments from two different people?

Also I’m totally a lawyer and have to get ready to work at the law factory.
   414. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:06 AM (#5715468)
I don’t see what this has to do with me.

You have posted rather frequently on a certain minority's reaction to their treatment. It seemed relevant to your posting history, despite the lack of revenue sharing.


White Guilt is for the goyim.

I have actual feelings about the way Jews are treated as well. Maybe with practice I can instead reach the nihilism of the human condition that you and Ray have, YR, and not give a shit about that either.
   415. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:10 AM (#5715470)
it’s our responsibility to make it right.


But who exactly will take even a fraction of that responsibility, or accept that they share in the legacy of white supremacy and the benefits they have accrued as a result?

Pelosi and Warren are right -- Democrats are capitalists, which means they inherently accept economic inequality and the domination of society by the wealthy. Not unlike the folks who held the capital of land and labor not just in the South, but the country as a hold. The importance of the 3/5s Compromise isn't that African slaves were 60 percent of white persons, but that it tilted the US political system towards the holders of that capital. A lot of what happened since the passage of the 13th Amendment has been to insure the system stays slanted that way. Get rid of Jim Crow, start using the prison system to reinstitute it, down to counting that prison population in rural areas to increase political representation.

Then there's the gentrification of New Orleans I brought up last week. Why is it Blacks are forced out of the city in favor of capitalists? Why couldn't the city be restored for the people flooded out by Katrina? And then there is the case of Eric Garner, murdered by the police not because of committing any crime (he was NOT selling cigarettes that day), but largely because he was a big Black man standing on the street near new gentrification in Staten Island and superiors at the local precinct wanted him off of it.

So what I'm trying to point out is that our capitalist system makes it impossible to recognize the equal humanity of Black folks to this very day, no matter how non-racist any of us are, or any individual gestures of goodwill we make towards Others.

I stick around is not because I am particularly enlightned or exceptional or smart or educated, but rather because I am right in the wheelhouse of the BTF/OTP demographic, with its history of support for evidence-based analytics and thinking fandom. I try to remind myself that the loudest voices don't stand for everybody, while realizing not everybody can play left field but maybe can shift that way on occassion. And that I often field it like Rhys Hoskins.
   416. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:11 AM (#5715471)
It's a bleak kind of hilarious that today audio surfaced of the President demonstrating guilt in a felony campaign finance violation regarding paying a mistress ... and it doesn't meaningfully impact his impeachment odds.


It really is corruption as far as the eye can see with GOP President Donald Trump. Generally what goes around comes around, and I think all this mess will come home to roost for the GOP.

They choose to ride the Trump train, to nominate, vote for and enable him, all in service of getting a tax cut and some judges. Well, congrats guys, you got your tax cut and judges and the bill is coming due, the first installment anyway.
   417. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5715472)
You have posted rather frequently on a certain minority's reaction to their treatment.


Your bar for "rather frequently" is so low SBB's notoriously attenuated testosterone levels can't fit under it.

I have actual feelings about the way Jews are treated as well. Maybe with practice I can reach the nihilism of the human condition that you and Ray have, YR.


I'm so sick of being compared to Little Lord Fauntleray and the Fake Lawyer.

Stay woke homie.
   418. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:15 AM (#5715473)
I am always amused by good old Jess Franco and his bizarre rants. I always wonder if specks of spittle fly onto the computer screen as he pounds away on the keyboard.

Dude, yes the US has done terrible things and yes white privilege is a thing (as is our racist past). But you go so far up your hindquarters on the issue and your self hatred that it is laughable. Get over yourself sparky.

Put another way, ain't no one or no nation perfect. Everyone's past is full of skeletons, stop pretending yours are extra special. Less histrionics and more doing the right thing.
   419. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:16 AM (#5715474)
Weren’t we replying to two different comments from two different people?


Yet same response.

I'm so sick of being compared to Little Lord Fauntleray and the Fake Lawyer.


If the glove fits, we must not acquit.
   420. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:19 AM (#5715475)
But mine was first. Sub-Beta should be commended for copying me, perhaps the first step in his journey to enlightenment.

And I don't think anyone would compare me to those two pumpkins or ever had in the history of the board. #thatsthejoke

But fight the power my brother.
   421. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:21 AM (#5715476)
White Guilt is for the goyim.

Thus leading to the age old question: Is a Jew as good as a white man?
   422. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:22 AM (#5715477)
I am sure this will help the GOP come November ... Odds of Government Shutdown Now 60%

Stan Collender: “The deadline for Congress and President Donald Trump to come to an agreement that will avoid a government shutdown this fall — which may be a much more frequent threat and occurrence these days than it used to be but would still be anything but routine – is approaching quickly and neither the White House, House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) or Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) have done anything to make it less likely.”

”Because of that, because the time left to prevent it from happening is steadily dwindling and because the other must-do tasks Congress has left are still multiplying, the chances of a shutdown happening this year are greater now than they were even a few week ago.”


I am sure the voters will approve of the government sowing dysfunction just before the election. If it happens, want to bet the GOP blames Democrats, even though the GOP has the House, Senate, and White House under their control? There is nothing the GOP can't try to blame on Democrats (weirdly even electing their leader and the POTUS).
   423. Jay Z Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:24 AM (#5715478)
It really is corruption as far as the eye can see with GOP President Donald Trump. Generally what goes around comes around, and I think all this mess will come home to roost for the GOP.


You could at least help by being pro impeachment today. Instead of waiting for some "high crime." Trump doesn't wait for high crimes, he's too lazy. He just does all of the low ones.
   424. Jay Z Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5715483)
The irony is that when the Democrats nominated and elected a black man as POTUS, he turned out to be intelligent and well-behaved. The Republicans opposed all of his policies anyway.

The Republicans countered by nominating and electing an actual gorilla. The Democrats responded by trying to enforce Robert's Rules of Order while the gorilla throws #### around the Oval Office.
   425. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 08:51 AM (#5715485)
You could at least help by being pro impeachment today. Instead of waiting for some "high crime." Trump doesn't wait for high crimes, he's too lazy. He just does all of the low ones.


How would me shouting from the rooftops help? That is a serious question.

In any event my standard remains the same as it was, I am waiting for more information before running around and arguing that the will of the voters should be overturned. It is sure to draw David's ire (oh noes!), but if you want a democracy then part of that is respecting the wishes of the voters and the outcome of the process.

I still believe, as I have the entire time, from pre-election onward, that Trump is unqualified to hold the job of president. That he is a serial liar, con man, and possibly neck deep in various questionable activities. However, none of that was a secret when the voters choose him. They ignored the circumstantial evidence of his wrongdoing (for whatever reasons) and until there is solid evidence of impeach worthy acts I am not going to call for his impeachment. Me thinking so is not enough.

So I am waiting for the Mueller investigation to release its findings before I take that step. You can choose whatever course you want, but my loathing Trump and everything he stands for is not impeachment worthy. Every day we do get closer, and at this point it does feel like just a matter of time, but this is an important enough issue I can wait.
   426. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5715488)
But fight the power my brother.

Sick burn, Roddy.
   427. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5715493)
running around and arguing that the will of the voters should be overturned.

I don't like the way this is phrased. I know the norm is that presidents are not indicted and that impeachment is a 'political process' but I prefer to think of impeachment as a trial. *If* the president is pathologically corrupt, has committed serious crimes and is a danger to commit more (I said *if*) then we need to whole trial in the Senate and he should go. You can't impeach your way to a majority. Impeachment is coming to the conclusion that "we need President Pence". Then we can go back to our usual partisan squabbles. Of course, if he did nothing wrong, then he should stay. :-)
   428. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5715495)
So what I'm trying to point out is that our capitalist system makes it impossible to recognize the equal humanity of Black folks to this very day, no matter how non-racist any of us are, or any individual gestures of goodwill we make towards Others.


The economic memory of lineages is ~12 generations. If we became genuinely colourblind* today, we'd reach economic (and presumably, social and whatnot) equality in 400~500 years.

Past that - I suppose the reactionary media must have a hard time these days - highlighting all the unarmed white guys the police beat to death would certainly push back on the narrative that being black is why poor black people don't get treated like rich white people, but it'd make cops look back. They must lose a lot of sleep.

*I actually only have anomolous tricolour vision.
   429. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5715498)
It is sure to draw David's ire (oh noes!), but if you want a democracy then part of that is respecting the wishes of the voters and the outcome of the process.


Except it wasn't the "will of the voters"... it wasn't the will of a majority - or even a plurality. It was the function of series of events with certain prescribed weightings (uneven weightings, I might add). The EC is what it is - but we need not substitute the practical reality of it for higher meanings like "will of the voter". I'm not saying there no correlation between an EC majority and 'the will of the voters'... but I am saying it's a fairly weak one, and in the case of a President elected with 46% (vs an opponent with 48%), it actually doesn't exist.

Strictly on impeachment - we've been down this path before, so pointless to rehash, but I remain of the opinion that the framers and practice and courts have made it entirely clear that statutorily defined crimes is NOT the bar intended for impeachment. The bar was meant to be high - not just mere prevailing winds of partisanship turning against a President - but unused bars are bars that are pointless.

EDIT: TO be clear, though - it's pointless to begin proceedings today and in fact, it shouldn't even first order of business for the next congress (depending, of course). Just generally saying that I think there is value to reframing the debate away from strict crimes.
   430. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5715505)
The economic memory of lineages is ~12 generations. If we became genuinely colourblind* today, we'd reach economic (and presumably, social and whatnot) equality in 400~500 years.


And if the arrow only travels half the distance to the target, and then half the distance between halfway there and the target, and then half the distance between 3/4 of the way to the target, the arrow will never reach the target! Great job, Xeno. You've rationalized yourself out of any practical action. Notch, draw and loose. Do a little better today, and then a little better than that tomorrow, and let the hand jobbers worry about if we're on track for our 12th generational timeline.
   431. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5715509)
BTW - on another front, I never got around to posting them here - but Nate had an interesting series of tweets Sunday/Monday...

Specifically - calling into question Trump's alleged steadfast strength with 'Republican' voters... Starting basically here - but the key is:


Nate Silver
‏Verified account @NateSilver538
Jul 23

Basically, the headlines about Trump approval being super high among Republicans imply there are a core group of voters who *never* desert Trump. But that isn't necessarily the case. Party identification is fluid. Trump approvers will join the party; disapprovers will leave.


And as the numbers also tell us - GOP party ID has actually dropped under Trump, shedding 2-3 points or more. This would be a net number, too - i.e., no doubt that there were some disaffected former Republicans who styled themselves "independents"... or even Democrats - call them Reagan Democrats or whatever - who might have still ID'ed as Democrats, that finally changed their laundry. However, the number is obviously outweighed by Republicans who left the GOP over Trump, by a pretty darn good clip.

In essence - Trump's approval among Republicans really doesn't mean all that much... because "Republicans" is not a static number. As Trump has continued to consolidate the GOP into his party - it ought to be perfectly and inherently logical that his approval among self-ID'ed Republicans is going to go up. Disapprovers are leaving (or being driven out).

Doesn't mean the number isn't worth watching - but more because, should fall below, say 80% - it's all over for him... absent that, though - don't tell me how many Republicans approve of Trump without also telling me how many Republicans there are. The former number is consistent, the latter number is fewer.
   432. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5715512)
Except it wasn't the "will of the voters"... it wasn't the will of a majority - or even a plurality. It was the function of series of events with certain prescribed weightings (uneven weightings, I might add). The EC is what it is - but we need not substitute the practical reality of it for higher meanings like "will of the voter". I'm not saying there no correlation between an EC majority and 'the will of the voters'... but I am saying it's a fairly weak one, and in the case of a President elected with 46% (vs an opponent with 48%), it actually doesn't exist.


Sure it is the will of the voters. It was that outcome based on the process in place, but that is ALWAYS the case. The process defines who gets to vote and how those votes are counted. Just because only white males voted didn't make long ago elections not the will of the voters.

When I support the outcome of the election I am NOT saying the process is perfect or even fair*. But I tend not to have a revolutionary perspective. I prefer working to fix the system and not overthrow it, so I support the National Vote Compact (to pick one example), but even so I acknowledge that Trump was elected according to the democratic process in place and thus his election shouldn't be overturned lightly or easily.

Strictly on impeachment - we've been down this path before, so pointless to rehash, but I remain of the opinion that the framers and practice and courts have made it entirely clear that statutorily defined crimes is NOT the bar intended for impeachment. The bar was meant to be high - not just mere prevailing winds of partisanship turning against a President - but unused bars are bars that are pointless.


I am not nor have I ever argued that statutory crimes were the bar. Impeachment is whatever the powers that be decide it is. However, my PERSONAL bar for it has not yet been reached. I am OK with other people calling for whatever they want, but my standards are my own.

But yes we have gone over this before. I will note, as I did up thread, that it is getting closer to meeting my threshold, and honestly it feels like it is only a matter of time, but in some things at least I am willing to be patient.

* Yes I realize this seems odd. But consider that I feel there are costs in trying to overturn already concluded elections, and often those costs end up being worse for democracy over the long term than a certain degree of unfairness, especially since as Arrow taught us elections can never be "perfect".
   433. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5715519)

Sure it as the will of the voters. It was that outcome based on the process in place, but that is ALWAYS the case. The process defines who gets to vote and how those votes are counted. Just because only white males voted didn't make long ago elections not the will of the voters.

When I support the outcome of the election I am NOT saying the process is perfect or even fair*. But I tend not to have a revolutionary perspective. I prefer working to fix the system and not overthrow it, so I support the National Vote Compact (to pick one example), but even so I acknowledge that Trump was elected according to the democratic process in place and thus his election shouldn't be overturned lightly or easily.


No, "will of the voters" is a somewhat ethereal concept, but it still has meaning and it is still subject to basic math.

Words still have meaning - and in fact, excepting certain anomalous elections (JQA/Jackson, Harrison/Cleveland) - the fact that some people (women, slaves pre-CW) couldn't vote means that they are NOT voters... so it's not the same thing. Now, if you had said will of the people - that might be true.

In any case, re: Trump - it was purely, simply, and absolutely not the will of the voters. This is sort of inverse Ray - where the "voters" have agency... but only sometimes.... depending...

Setting aside changes to the EC - all I am saying is that one can respect the system and the results it produces without also pinning a will of the voters ribbon on it. Far more often than not - it does match up. In 2016, it did not. It didn't in 1888 or 1824 either.

My point on the specific phrase actually isn't really even IMPEACH (or national popular vote or whatever) - it's actually part and parcel of the Trump problem. The will of the voters in this rare - but not unprecedented - instance did not manifest in the EC. That's not the end of the world... Happened before, might happen again.

With a non-Trump - such a President might (or probably should) seek out areas of agreement. It's understandable that a President would still pursue baubles his (minority) of the voters wanted, but a better President than Trump (a list that probably includes 80% of the eligible US population, maybe more) should have pursued, say, infrastructure spending... rather than just having an 'infrastructure week' whenever he does or says somethign stupid.
   434. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5715522)
The bad news for Republicans is there's a bunch of palace intrigue and crisis planning about the identity of the next GOP Speaker of the House. The silver lining for them is that the question "Which Republican is going to be the Speaker of the House in 2019?" looks like it's going to work itself out long before a contentious GOP Speaker vote can create any more bad feeling.
   435. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5715524)

And if the arrow only travels half the distance to the target, and then half the distance between halfway there and the target, and then half the distance between 3/4 of the way to the target, the arrow will never reach the target! Great job, Xeno. You've rationalized yourself out of any practical action. Notch, draw and loose. Do a little better today, and then a little better than that tomorrow, and let the hand jobbers worry about if we're on track for our 12th generational timeline.


I'm not sure why this is framed as a response to me, since it would appear to be unrelated to what I said.
   436. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5715531)
His comment was clearly addressed to Xeno.
   437. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5715532)
So has anyone here listened to this Trump/Cohen tape that CNN has apparently posted online?
   438. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5715535)
415–
So what I'm trying to point out is that our capitalist system makes it impossible to recognize the equal humanity of Black folks to this very day, no matter how non-racist any of us are, or any individual gestures of goodwill we make towards Others.

Bingo. It was actually one stat that pushed me from liberalism to socialism. This line in an unrelated newspaper article:

According to the report, which analyzed data from the Survey of Consumer Finances from the Federal Reserve, the median net worth of white households in 2013 was $141,900, about 13 times that of black households at $11,000.

13 ############ times greater. And capitalism offers absolutely nothing to correct this tragedy—because it can’t, because in fact capital has exacerbated the imbalance.
   439. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5715539)
437- Yes. Trump asks a staffer for a Coke, which was an interesting data point—there had been some news profiles that stated his drink of choice these days was Diet Coke, which would be a bit hypocritical, as he’s stated before that you never see a skinny woman drinking Diet Coke, it’s only for fatties, which is why he stays away. So, it’s good to see that he practices what he preaches here.
   440. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5715544)
Ah, I see - it's a case of infinitely mistaken identity. Identity politics will do that to you ;)
   441. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5715545)
13 ############ times greater. And capitalism offers absolutely nothing to correct this tragedy—because it can’t, because in fact capital has exacerbated the imbalance.


You seem confused. Capitalism, as practiced in the west, is most concerned with efficient allocation of resources for greater production of goods in order to generate societal surplus. (Speaking very loosely and generally). It doesn't have much to say about how that surplus is allocated by society, it chooses one of many possible Pareto optimal solutions but doesn't say one such solution is better than others, and in general is not focused on the problem you are setting for it. The other stuff you are whining about is politics and the political system, which is very different than the economic system. They are certainly intertwined, but they are NOT the same.

You are like the guy confusing science and religion, ad wondering how a scientist can be religious, when most people recognize the two are orthogonal to each other.
   442. BrianBrianson Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5715548)
And capitalism offers absolutely nothing to correct this tragedy—because it can’t, because in fact capital has exacerbated the imbalance.


Yes, of course - capitalism is by far the best wealth generation, but it also pushes that wealth towards as small a group as possible. So, you need some additional system to enable wealth distribution. Here, I do kind of like Sweden, where the market is pretty free - it's all tax and provide afterwards. America, for all it's reputation as the cowboy west, it really regulation-heavy, because people are afraid of just letting the government do what it's supposed to, so they try to force it to happen by regulation.
   443. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5715549)
You missed “Venezuela!”, so that is not a good Bingo.
   444. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5715550)
Lassus, #437:
So has anyone here listened to this Trump/Cohen tape that CNN has apparently posted online?


Client 1 has. This morning he tweetcrapped, "Why was the tape so abruptly terminated (cut) while I was presumably saying positive things?"

However, I still believe the Cohen tape because I didn't see it or read it, as per my President's instructions.
   445. Hot Wheeling American Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5715554)
   446. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5715557)
Not revealing the author until the end of the piece paid MAJOR laugh dividends here


The first response pretty much sums it up...

"How I'm great" by Me

I am a huge fan of the stink that boiling in gallons of febreeze cannot hide remaining extent.
   447. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5715558)
Client 1 has. This morning he tweetcrapped, "Why was the tape so abruptly terminated (cut) while I was presumably saying positive things?"


He's had a busy - and angry - morning tweeting...

I feel bad for the flunky who got caught in traffic and couldn't get him an egg mcmuffin before they stopped serving breakfast.
   448. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5715564)
Say what you will about Patti Blagojevich - but the lady knows her audience...

Patti Blagojevich plays her Trump card: It’s all Barack Obama’s fault

It's a special kind of awesome that Trump is kind of like a shitbag magnet - and hating Obama is essentially the magnetic field.

Why, if I were an OTP armchair psychologist, I might give it a catchy name.... Obama something something... Crazy State? No... unhinged being? No... Something that sounds technical and would warrant its own wikipedia page.
   449. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5715565)
   450. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5715567)
It's a special kind of awesome that Trump is kind of like a shitbag magnet - and hating Obama is essentially the magnetic field.

Why, if I were an OTP armchair psychologist, I might give it a catchy name.... Obama something something... Crazy State? No... unhinged being? No... Something that sounds technical and would warrant its own wikipedia page.

How about... Obama Hysteria Disorder?
   451. dlf Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5715574)
I feel bad for the flunky who got caught in traffic and couldn't get him an egg mcmuffin before they stopped serving breakfast.


Fake news! McDonalds now has all-day breakfast.

Mickey D's corporate performance has done pretty well since starting that program. Franchisees were a mite annoyed because breakfast foods have a lower margin, and having to run separate sets of equipment at the same time took a bit of retooling, but apparently being able to get the Egg McMuffin or Sausage Biscuit at 11pm brought in enough customers to make up for it. And at the same time, they have started to market a slightly more upscale hamburger. Not sure what part has been the greater driver of revenue. And with McD's being a counter-cyclical play ...
   452. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5715578)
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the official White House transcript from the Helsinki press conference just happens to remove exactly ONE question:

Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?”


Of course, it's also just a coincidence that the exact same question is also missing from the official Kremlin transcript.

Convenient coincidences, indeed.

Trump: “What you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening”
   453. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5715579)
Yes, of course - capitalism is by far the best wealth generation, but it also pushes that wealth towards as small a group as possible. So, you need some additional system to enable wealth distribution. Here, I do kind of like Sweden, where the market is pretty free - it's all tax and provide afterwards. America, for all it's reputation as the cowboy west, it really regulation-heavy, because people are afraid of just letting the government do what it's supposed to, so they try to force it to happen by regulation.


State control of the economy is problematic, to say the least. Distribute as much money to the bottom, let it float back up, then do it again.

Catch and release.
   454. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5715581)
The importance of the 3/5s Compromise isn't that African slaves were 60 percent of white persons, but that it tilted the US political system towards the holders of that capital.
Of course, that's wrong; the purpose of the 3/5ths Compromise was to tilt the political system away from slaveholders.)

So what I'm trying to point out is that our capitalist system makes it impossible to recognize the equal humanity of Black folks to this very day, no matter how non-racist any of us are, or any individual gestures of goodwill we make towards Others.
That's pretty much gibberish. Capitalism (I hate the term, but we're stuck with it) is based on the equal humanity of everyone.
   455. PepTech Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5715584)
Hypocrisy update:

Ray still opts to not acknowledge that on the one hand, he berates everyone for the "homophobic" use of sexual phrases, while on the other hand he employs those same phrases himself.

SBB chips in with an attempted excuse for Ray, but refuses to acknowledge his own bigotry regarding Obama's "unhealthy" "embrace" of Islam.

Solidarność!
   456. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5715588)

In any event my standard remains the same as it was, I am waiting for more information before running around and arguing that the will of the voters should be overturned. It is sure to draw David's ire (oh noes!), but if you want a democracy then part of that is respecting the wishes of the voters and the outcome of the process.
But this is doubly dumb, because Trump didn't (and doesn't) represent the will of the voters. (I am not saying that he didn't legitimately win; he won under the rules in place, and that counts. But paeans to the "will of the voters" are completely misplaced, even (or especially) if one has a democracy fetish.
   457. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5715590)
Actually, US policy has hardened towards Russia simce Trump came into office, as he can't be bothered. The benefit to Russia -- and pretty much any nation not completely dependent upon the US -- is the internal chaos and distraction Trump delivers in spades.

I would think the Chinese are most pleased, but Saudi Arabia and Israel have reaped a lot of benefit. Quite helpful to have Little Jared in your pocket.
   458. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5715591)
That's pretty much gibberish.


Yup. Off course we can recognize the equal humanity of people, and as a nation we make progress towards realizing the end goal pretty much every generation. But it is a very slow process. Pretending it is not happening is silly though.

Note: That is not to say that progress is magically ordained or that equality in every way will ever be reached.
   459. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5715597)
Capitalism (I hate the term, but we're stuck with it)


It's like you know the word is used to "mean" something that it doesn't actually represent, but you're so religiously invested in the rightness and requirement of that pretend meaning that you can't help yourself.
   460. BDC Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5715599)
the purpose of the 3/5ths Compromise was to tilt the political system away from slaveholders

I dunno. I mean, it was a compromise. Counting all slaves would have tilted the system toward slaveholders and counting none would have tilted it away. Three-fifths fell in between.
   461. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5715601)
Of course, that's wrong; the purpose of the 3/5ths Compromise was to tilt the political system away from slaveholders.)


This is true, in that the just alternative - eliminating slavery and giving the right to vote to all citizens, regardless of race - was unthinkable to the Founding Father Who May Never Be Questioned.
   462. BDC Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5715602)
paeans to the "will of the voters" are completely misplaced

In any event, Mike Pence also represents the will of the voters.
   463. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5715603)
But this is doubly dumb, because Trump didn't (and doesn't) represent the will of the voters. (I am not saying that he didn't legitimately win; he won under the rules in place, and that counts. But paeans to the "will of the voters" are completely misplaced, even (or especially) if one has a democracy fetish.


I have already clarified this, but whatever. Forever more tilt against the vague phrase "will of the voters" as you would. The process functioned according to spec, voters voted knowing full well what they were voting for (as much as they ever do) and Trump won. Overturning that legitimate outcome of voting should not be done lightly or on a whim.

But keep arguing the legitimate outcome of a democratic vote doesn't represent the will of the voters for ... reasons. Pedantic definitional reasons. I think the distinction without a difference you are arguing for is dumb, but have at - Trump is still the legitimate democratically elected president, no matter how much millions of people wish it were not so.
   464. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5715605)
Hypocrisy update:

Ray still opts to not acknowledge that on the one hand, he berates everyone for the "homophobic" use of sexual phrases, while on the other hand he employs those same phrases himself.


I can't imagine what you're talking about, unless you mean this:
5313. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 26, 2015 at 01:27 PM (#5006872)

You're right; instead, the left just seems not to care about it, as they fellate Iran and assail America's bakers.
   465. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5715606)
In any event, Mike Pence also represents the will of the voters.


No one votes for or against a VP. Yes Pence is the legitimate "heir", but let's not pretend it is more than that.
   466. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:00 PM (#5715608)
#462:
paeans to the "will of the voters" are completely misplaced
In any event, Mike Pence also represents the will of the voters.

And Donald Trump represents the Triumph of the Will.

But not in the Hitler way. In the Insult Comic Dog show biz second-rater way, with Vladimir Putin's not-quite offscreen hand visibly operating the shitty-looking puppet.
   467. zenbitz Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5715609)
That's pretty much gibberish. Capitalism (I hate the term, but we're stuck with it) is based on the equal humanity of everyone.


This isn't false. But it's a lie by omission. Capitalism (using it in the pure libertarian sense) ignores history and generational effects. It's the "assume the horse is a frictionless sphere" of economic theory.
   468. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5715611)
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the official White House transcript from the Helsinki press conference just happens to remove exactly ONE question:

Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?”

Of course, it's also just a coincidence that the exact same question is also missing from the official Kremlin transcript.


I'm sorry but I just can't work up any outrage about the entire office of the Presidency conspiring with a foreign nation to literally recast history in Orwellian homage because you hippies use terms to describe Trump's relationship with Russia that intellectuals only use to describe Obama's relationship with Iran. Call me when you're ready to have a serious discussion with enlightened minds like mine.

*puffs clove cigarette*
   469. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5715613)
No one votes for or against a VP.


Well, not since Burr, anyway.
   470. BDC Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5715617)
No one votes for or against a VP. Yes Pence is the legitimate "heir", but let's not pretend it is more than that

Sure, but all I'm saying is that Pence is every bit as legitimate as Trump, and no Republican should be downcast in the slightest if Pence becomes President tomorrow. It's not like, in the event of impeachment, Trump's successor would be handpicked by a cabal of Robert Mueller, Bernie Sanders, and Oprah.
   471. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5715619)
385

Vladimir Putin's penis is REAL!


#FakeNews
   472. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5715621)
O
Of course, that's wrong; the purpose of the 3/5ths Compromise was to tilt the political system away from slaveholders.)



Stick to pedantry. The 3/5s compromise gave slave states increased political power, and that is how things played out until the Civil War. Slaves were property, with no vote, and thus with zero representation.

Capitalism (I hate the term, but we're stuck with it) is based on the equal humanity of everyone.


Did you have a son and name him John Galt Nieporent?
   473. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5715628)
Sure, but all I'm saying is that Pence is every bit as legitimate as Trump, and no Republican should be downcast in the slightest if Pence becomes President tomorrow. It's not like, in the event of impeachment, Trump's successor would be handpicked by a cabal of Robert Mueller, Bernie Sanders, and Oprah.


Unless they know that Pence is also implicated in something related to the Russia scandal and/or the cover-up of such. The channeling of illegal foreign money into the RNC seems to have been a fairly open secret among the members of the party, as Ryan's "real family" conversation shows.

I still think there's a non-zero chance we end up with President Hatch at some point as the endgame of this thing plays out.
   474. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5715629)
So, Michael Cohen's lawyer said today that Cohen is no longer seeking a pardon from Trump. “He has turned a corner in his life, and he’s now dedicated to telling the truth to everyone.”

Somehow I think this is the new corner in Michael Cohen's life.
   475. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5715631)
I still think there's a non-zero chance we end up with President Hatch at some point as the endgame of this thing plays out.


He'll fulfill the Mormon "White Horse" prophecy! Kolob is real!
   476. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5715636)
Impeachment is coming to the conclusion that "we need President Pence".


"We" as in the GOP establishment. Though admittedly, as the political reincarnation of Jerry Ford, he'd be much easier to defeat in 2020 than Trump.
   477. perros Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5715640)
Somehow I think this is the new corner in Michael Cohen's life.


Nice resonance with Aldrich Ames.
   478. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5715642)
I Ames to please.
   479. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5715644)
Stick to pedantry. The 3/5s compromise gave slave states increased political power, and that is how things played out until the Civil War. Slaves were property, with no vote, and thus with zero representation.


Yeah, sorry folks, but Perros is right on this one.

One can make the cold and pragmatic case this was necessary to ensure ratification of the constitution (no doubt, it was) or it was a necessity that such compromises be made until the US matured enough to survive a Civil War... but it's pretty easy - and in fact, a number of historians have done so - to see where a pretty fair number of markers post-ratification look radically different.

For example, the Wilmot proviso almost certainly passes and becomes law... Go back further, there's almost certainly no Missouri compromise - indeed, Missouri probably doesn't become a state without a prohibition on slavery. Several Presidential elections change - Adams probably wins a 2nd term, for one. No Kansas-Nebraska Act. Quite a bit changes sans the 3/5.

Conversely - even the most generous reading of "representation" offers up precisely nothing at the federal level... there were few to no federal laws that in any way offered any protections or benefits to the slaves by virtue of their "3/5 counting" for purposes of representation.

Frame it like the "taxes at gunpoint" argument if you want -- i.e., the well-trod ground that 'compromising' about taking a 75 cents rather than a dollar isn't a 'compromise'.

It was a bad faith argument top to bottom to begin with and the fact that it required a 'compromise' where the bad faith arguers only got 60% of what they wanted doesn't make it any better.

Again - I'll stress that one can make a cold and practical case that constitutional ratification required it... and various post-ratification policy debates that ultimately favored the slave states to an out-sized degree were further practical necessities.

But there is simply no honest argument to be made beyond that. The slave states shook down the non-slave states for a dollar. The non-slave states ultimately acquiesced for 60 cents. Period.
   480. BDC Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5715645)
Mickey D's corporate performance has done pretty well

The contiguous U.S. visualized by distance to the nearest McDonalds
   481. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5715649)
I hope we get a nightly Dershy Report this evening...

I expect it to be awesome.
   482. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5715655)
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the official White House transcript from the Helsinki press conference just happens to remove exactly ONE question: "Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?”

Of course, it's also just a coincidence that the exact same question is also missing from the official Kremlin transcript. Convenient coincidences, indeed.

The Washington Post debunks that theory, which appears to have originated with MSNBC. The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, which caused the Post to produce the same transcript.
   483. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5715656)

The Washington Post debunks that theory, which appears to have originated with MSNBC. The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, which caused the Post to produce the same transcript.


Wait...

Was or Wasn't?
   484. BDC Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5715657)
The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, explained Minitrue technician Winston Smith.
   485. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 25, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5715661)
Wait...

Was or Wasn't?


You have to admit any theory based on the GOP Trump administration screwing up starts out life on solid footing.

Somehow Clapper missed this in his bold tale of how the GOP dominates the old Democratic stomping grounds of blue collar workers ... Blue Collar Whites Begin Abandoning Trump

A new Quinnipiac poll finds that 38% of voters approve of how President Trump is doing his job.

However, among white voters without a college degree, 49% said they approved. While that approval rate is high compared to other demographic groups, it’s a significant drop from just last month when 57% approved of Trump’s performance.
   486. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5715671)
The Washington Post debunks that theory, which appears to have originated with MSNBC. The problem was the switchover from the audio feeds of the translator and participants, which caused the Post to produce the same transcript.


If that was the case, why is the White House version slightly different than the Kremlin version?

In the White House version, they left in the response from Putin for the missing question.
In the Kremlin version, they ALSO took out Putin's response to the missing question.

I can't read the Washington Post story, but do they cover that discrepancy if it everyone was using the same "bad" transcript?

   487. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5715673)
470

It's not like, in the event of impeachment, Trump's successor would be handpicked by a cabal of Robert Mueller, Bernie Sanders, and Oprah.


Wait..what? The runner-up doesn't get to be President?????? (/sarcasm)

Note: I had an uber-rightwing friend -- a would-be local politician, no less! -- calling for Obama's impeachment in 2014, I believe truly thinking that would clear the way for a President Romney. When I pointed out the fact that it would, in fact, result in President Biden, he hemmed and hawed that he actually knew that, but thought that a President Biden would be easier to manipulate and defeat in 2016.
   488. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5715677)
Why Public Libraries Are Amazing

Public libraries are actually a radical departure from the economic consensus. We can see this by thinking about what it would sound like to propose them today. (...) If libraries didn’t exist, and today’s Democratic party wanted to increase public access to information, they’d never suggest the government actually build spaces full of books where people could come and learn. They’d probably offer a tax credit for book purchases, or subsidize the Amazon library.
   489. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5715685)
A new Quinnipiac poll finds that 38% of voters approve of how President Trump is doing his job.

However, among white voters without a college degree, 49% said they approved. While that approval rate is high compared to other demographic groups, it’s a significant drop from just last month when 57% approved of Trump’s performance.


Don't forget Quinnipiac's 12% margin for Democrats in the generic House ballot.

Or the 51% of Americans who believe Putin has compromising information on Trump. (35% say no.) Even the aforementioned white voters without a college degree think it's true.

51% say Trump has weakened the U.S. position in the world. 35% say no.

55% say Mueller's conducting a fair investigation, not a witch hunt. 40% say "Happy Halloween."

46% say the Trump campaign colluded with Russia. 44% say nyet.

52% say the Putin summit was a failure for America. 27% say don't believe what you see or what you read.
   490. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5715687)
from The Washington Post story:

"MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow led her show Tuesday night with an explosive allegation: The administration of President Trump had intentionally buried a question asked of Russian President Vladimir Putin during last week’s news conference in Helsinki. Not an insignificant question, either. The one about whether or not Putin wanted Trump to win.

“We can report tonight that the White House video of that exchange has also skilfully cut out that question from the Reuters reporter as if it didn’t happen,” Maddow claimed.
..........
What happened? If you watch the videos, it’s pretty clear. At some point in the middle of that question, there’s a switch between the feed from the reporters and the feed from the translator.
............
This is not a conspiracy from the White House. While the White House certainly has a track record of misrepresenting facts, this would have been a remarkably futile revision of reality to attempt. As it turns out, they didn’t."

(there is more detail on the parallel feeds, but I didn't want to quote twholeFA. just google news "Washington Post transcript Trump" and you can find it and add your own segment if you like.)
   491. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5715688)
As we've talked about here, the discrepancy in household wealth between AAs and Whites is primarily due to home ownership and how post WWII AAs were systemically denied access to government and private lending.

It's the example, sadly, of the pernicious legacy of institutional racism. Anybody that denies it has their head in the sand. "Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" is a lot easier with a helping hand, and it's a hand minorities have not usually found waiting.
   492. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5715698)
The Atlantic wrote about the same transcript omission a full week ago. Maddow's broadcast is over 16 hours old. The Post's article was online this morning. As of one minute ago, the official correction has still not been made. Why not is an exercise left to the reader, because Lord knows this President doesn't exercise.
   493. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5715700)
(there is more detail on the parallel feeds, but I didn't want to quote twholeFA. just google news "Washington Post transcript Trump" and you can find it and add your own segment if you like. If Maddow was a real journalist, she either would have pushed for and gotten clarification from the White House or, failing that, she could have just noted the oddity of the missing Q-A without jumping to conclusions. instead, she went with "the White House.... skillfully cut out" - and now according to The Post she's left with egg on her face, while providing fuel to the fire of deranged Trumpkins. meanwhile, the permanent record should include the Q-A.)


Not to defend Maddow specifically here -

But I think it needs to be noted that "pushed for and gotten clarification from the White House" is different under Trump than it has been under any other administration.

Time and time and time again - you'll see far more "did not respond to repeated requests for" comment/clarification/etc.

Far more than any other - this administration tends to ignore any and all questions from outlets it doesn't like.
   494. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5715703)
I like Rachel Maddow, but she lost me with the whole WE HAVE AL CAPONE'S VAULT TRUMP'S TAX RETURN! debacle.
   495. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5715706)
Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.
   496. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5715707)
I like Rachel Maddow, but she lost me with the whole WE HAVE AL CAPONE'S VAULT TRUMP'S TAX RETURN! debacle.


I've never been a fan. She's a cheerleader. Her rooting interests align mostly with my own but I don't see her as a great thinker or anything. That she's the best the "left" can do is a bit sad.
   497. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5715711)
As we've talked about here, the discrepancy in household wealth between AAs and Whites is primarily due to home ownership and how post WWII AAs were systemically denied access to government and private lending.

True, although there were plenty of programs and policies that kept blacks from acquiring and keeping property well before 1946. And it should be noted that this was always a nationwide problem, one that was never confined to the former Confederacy.

It's the example, sadly, of the pernicious legacy of institutional racism. Anybody that denies it has their head in the sand. "Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" is a lot easier with a helping hand, and it's a hand minorities have not usually found waiting.

The logical train of thought seems to be, "Hey, I've never discriminated against blacks or used the n-word, so racism can't be a problem."
   498. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5715712)
MSNBC is evil and soulless.
   499. Davo Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5715713)
   500. JJ1986 Posted: July 25, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5715714)
Howie, I promise that nobody will dox you or call you an elitist snob if you learn to use the quote tab.
Hint: it's not the same as the italics tab.
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