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Monday, October 15, 2018

OTP 2018 October 15: The shift in focus from sport to politics

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1522 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   401. RoyalFlush Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5767826)
ETA: Flip!

Why are the Cherokees so against a DNA test? Surely they know that most claims of "Indian heritage" are bogus. Considering the benefits that some tribes can receive (gaming revenue, et al) shouldn't they appreciate a method of weeding out imposters? They can reasonably decide that 1/512th or whatever sliver is too small to join or claim identity, but I really don't see why they oppose DNA tests so adamantly.


They're against them to make any claims to heritage in their tribe. Which is how they see Warren using this.

   402. BDC Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5767827)
a lawyer who does some teaching on the side is usually considered an adjunct. To my knowledge, a lecturer refers to a full time teacher who does not have tenure and is not on a tenure track


That's the nomenclature we use at my university, though it's very recently that it was made uniform. The oddity here is that we have people who drop in to teach a course now and then and are titled Adjunct Assistant Professor (or even Adjunct Professor), but we have people who've taught 5-6 courses a semester for years who are titled Lecturer. "Senior Lecturer" is another rank entirely, less teaching and more committeework etc., but without tenure either.

I think the idea that it really depends on the school and/or system involved must be correct. This is always a problem when dealing with academic titles from abroad. "Reader" in British universities always seemed to me like somebody who dragged themselves in to sit in the coffeeshop once in a while, but it's usually a pretty high tenured position. I have a friend in France whose title is "Maître de Conferences" which sounds like he should be in a bib and tucker showing your way to your meeting room, but he's like a Reader in Britain.

Conversely, I am a Professor, which is extremely impressive to people in Britain and France, but in the US just means some old guy nobody's convinced to retire yet.
   403. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5767828)
As should be clear from reading #367, this isn't about whether I'm going to vote for Warren, but whether other people will.


Except you're using your reaction as a proxy for a typical democratic primary voter, which is obviously moronic. Mouse is probably as close as we get here to who she should be considering (except he's too high information), and he doesn't give a ####. Indeed, nobody here who might vote in a democratic primary has given any indication this changes anything for them (though I don't think anyone is a real booster of hers). Of course her people will call it a win, and her detractors (and attention seekers) will call it a loss, but we're not so dumb we can't evaluate it independently.
   404. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5767829)
Why are the Cherokees so against a DNA test?


I am hardly an expert on the issue, but I have plenty of friends with some amount of Native American ancestry on both sides (in a tribe, denied tribal membership) and depending on how cynical you want to be it is about either money or self identification.

Basically how it is now in most tribes is it is a VERY political inside baseball process to gain membership in a tribe. Who you know, who you are friends with, and what kind of tribal benefits (including sweet sweet casino payouts) are at stake seems to drive the process much more than ancestry (from my outsider perspective - obviously ancestry does play a role though of course).

They really and truly do not want an objective and out of their control mechanism for determining tribal membership and the powers that be (those that have such membership and are in power based on the votes of those with such tribal membership) react very strongly to anything that might upset the apple cart in that direction.
   405. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5767831)
have decided to make Warren pay her for cultural appropriation


Gawd, what a stupid concept.

Anyone who bangs the "cultural appropriation" drum should be forever regarded as a non-serious person.
   406. Davo Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5767832)
@realdonaldtrump
“Federal Judge throws out Stormy Danials lawsuit versus Trump. Trump is entitled to full legal fees.” @FoxNews Great, now I can go after Horseface and her 3rd rate lawyer in the Great State of Texas. She will confirm the letter she signed! She knows nothing about me, a total con!

He is such a vile, wicked man. And you know he’s deluded enough that he truly believes he is more sinned against than sinning. Violates his marital vows with a prostitute and somehow he’s the victim.
   407. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5767834)
For most of the past few years I've been a "Sessional Lecturer" which seems to mean nothing to anyone outside of Canadian universities.

One year I was an Assistant Professor...which was likely the highest salary I'm ever going to have in my life.
   408. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5767835)
Jesus. How ####### stupid have Americans become?


Beyond our current ability to measure.
   409. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5767837)
Why are the Cherokees so against a DNA test?

The Cherokees have actual records, going back to the Trail of Tears. Not surprising that they think a Tribal Census is a better marker than a DNA test that compared Warren to people from Mexico, Peru & Colombia. Warren might have a better claim for being Hispanic under her own methodology.
   410. BDC Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5767839)
Financial calculation may be part of it, but the infamous "blood quantum" was not a Native concept, but imposed from outside and more than vaguely fascist in its implications. A lot of Indians oppose the notion just on ideological grounds. In any event, tribal membership is usually contingent on showing actual family relationship to others in the tribe, not just on being vaguely such-a-percent Native American.

EDIT: My God, I owe a Coke to Clapper. Have some bourbon in it if you like, man, it will likely be the last for a long time.
   411. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5767840)
Indeed, I went from being a "Research Associate" to an "Assistant Research Professor" by a random email telling me the faculty was standardizing titles across departments, and that the title change was in no way, shape, or form a promotion.

I'll admit, I found it a little difficult to process emotionally (as it were), since the title "Professor" carries so much baggage.
   412. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5767841)
That's a pretty common take in today's coverage. Warren hasn't helped herself, and managed to convert a Warren v. Trump issue into a Warren v. Cherokee Nation & Native Americans issue. Luckily, the Democrats will have a couple of hundred other presidential candidates to choose from, but Warren added substantially to her baggage with yesterday's announcement.


It's Dukakis in the tank, with the only possible silver lining being the long time between now and real election stuff.
   413. Traderdave Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5767843)
Egg on Warren's face is good for the Demos anyway. She's one D that Trump would easily beat.
   414. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5767844)
It is official now. Republicans can relax and know their control of the House as well as down ballot state races is safe and secure.


Barring something big between now and then, the midterm results are going to be disappointing to Democrats. They're significantly down from peak. Very little chance to win the Senate. If I had to bet, I'd say they'd take the House, but they very well may not. If the R's keep both houses, expect TDS and the assorted craziness to -- almost unimaginatively -- get even worse.

Kavanaugh was a big momentum killer. The nutty left ruined things for actual sane liberals.
   415. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5767846)

I would say very good President and meh Democratic party builder.

I am not convinced his active party building would have changed all that much, but I agree he was less than ideal in that arena. Still being President is what he was "hired" to do and I am glad that was job #1 for him.


Agree entirely on the 2nd point.

Just cannot even get to 'meh' on the first. I might be amendable to something better than shitty, but it would take some heavy lifting.

Possible things change in the future... we see a smattering of candidates here and there who 'served in the Obama administration'... but there's a real paucity of direct lines from the Obama campaign to the future of the Democratic party.
   416. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5767848)
She is not asking for membership in the tribe. She is not asking for any of the benefits therein.


LOL. She started "asking for ... benefits therein" decades ago. That's the whole point of the various "Native American" listings.
   417. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5767850)
I really don't see why they oppose DNA tests so adamantly.


They don't.
   418. PepTech Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5767851)
As should be clear from reading #367, this isn't about whether I'm going to vote for Warren, but whether other people will.

Except you're using your reaction as a proxy for a typical democratic primary voter, which is obviously moronic.
Correct. #367 owes me a Coke for #275.
   419. McCoy Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5767852)
I'll be voting in a Democratic primary. Don't know who I'll be voting for but I know I won't be voting for Warren. The nail in the coffin had been hammered in a long time ago.
   420. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5767854)
As should be clear from reading #367, this isn't about whether I'm going to vote for Warren, but whether other people will.

Except you're using your reaction as a proxy for a typical democratic primary voter, which is obviously moronic.

Wrong again. In #367, I excerpted articles from Politico & CNN that indicated many thought Warren botched the issue of her "heritage". Making this about me doesn't help Warren. Sure, hard-core Warren supporters won't care, but others will. Even those in the very liberal part of the Democratic Party will have other options, and may seek a more viable candidate carrying less baggage. But run her if you like.
   421. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5767856)
The Cherokee Nation denied the validity of ALL DNA testing:

No, it didn't. (*)


Yes it did.

As the statement, "It makes a mockery out of DNA tests ... " makes clear. The Cherokees accept the validity of DNA tests, but not Warren's usage of them as a vehicle for appropriating Cherokee status/culture.


They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry. Let's dispense with the ellipses when I took the trouble to excerpt the whole relevant section:

Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven.


They want to be able to make their own declaration of who has and doesn't have native ancestry and don't want science intruding in their tribal politics. I suppose that's ok for their internal affairs, but they don't get to decide what we palefaces do with the technology any more than the Mormons did when we had to break the news that the natives weren't actually Jewish.
   422. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5767857)
Obama was really a shitty party builder.

...

Good President, pretty shitty Democrat.


To Sir ... With LOVE!!!!!
   423. TDF, trained monkey Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5767858)
Well, I guess bipartisan is a step up from partisan... but it's still short of the goal of nonpartisan.
Michigan is actually voting on a scheme supporters label "nonpartisan".
   424. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5767859)
Why are the Cherokees so against a DNA test? Surely they know that most claims of "Indian heritage" are bogus. Considering the benefits that some tribes can receive (gaming revenue, et al) shouldn't they appreciate a method of weeding out imposters? They can reasonably decide that 1/512th or whatever sliver is too small to join or claim identity, but I really don't see why they oppose DNA tests so adamantly.


I think most truly tribal organizations - not just Cherokees... and I think the answer is that when it comes to the tribal organizations, they see it less a heritage matter than a sovereignty matter. Which is to say - here's where the idea of "Have you actually lived accordingly to our culture? Have you actually faced discrimination or otherwise faced obstacles because of it?"

For those who choose to hew to the spirit of the sovereignty - it's less about "are you related/have a genetic ancestry" than it is "are you".

So aside from the Warren points scoring and Warren points deducting, sure - I think they're right.
   425. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5767861)
Conversely, I am a Professor, which is extremely impressive to people in Britain and France,


I'm impressed by it. Teachers are awesome. Wrong about any number of worldly things, but awesome nonetheless.
   426. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5767864)
My God, I owe a Coke to Clapper. Have some bourbon in it if you like, man, it will likely be the last for a long time.

I like beer.
   427. PepTech Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5767865)
She is not asking for membership in the tribe. She is not asking for any of the benefits therein.

LOL. She started "asking for ... benefits therein" decades ago. That's the whole point of the various "Native American" listings.
There's a bit of pedantry to be wangled over regarding "asking for benefits"; I'd heard some justification that ran something along the lines of cheap efforts to try to increase her network or something similarly lame. It does *not* appear she purposely tried to defraud any official agency for special consideration (such as hiring). Whatever, the Kavanaugh "young and dumb" excuse sort of applies.

Which is not a defense; she was dumb to not correct any misinterpretation decades ago. It's fine to anecdotally say you have a great-grandma or whatever, but I'd say it crossed the line let the directory claim you as a minority (and not fix it). It's flat-out stupid to insist the DNA test helps her in the way she seems to think.

Edited in an attempt at clarity.
   428. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5767866)
Michigan is actually voting on a scheme supporters label "nonpartisan".


No need for scare quotes there. Though I haven't refreshed this recently, for at least 30 key years through at least the late 1990s, Michigan required judges to run for elected office as nonpartisans, in nonpartisan elections. So it has a long tradition with applying the concept in practice.
   429. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5767867)
have decided to make Warren pay her for cultural appropriation

Gawd, what a stupid concept.

Anyone who bangs the "cultural appropriation" drum should be forever regarded as a non-serious person.


I think it is legitimately different for the tribal nations... as in, they are supposed to be some manner of sovereign within the US.

Granted, in some cases - that boils down to resource or casino revenue, but I do think for many of them, it's more than that and I do think that they have a point.
   430. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5767868)
I don't think it's wise for an "establishment-y" candidate like Warren to try to court the "very liberal part" of the Democratic party. She has committed fans, those of the "Yet She Persisted" motif at least, and now needs to reach out to the bulk of the low information types. Probably somewhere in the "center" of the party. The ones who'll remember naught but her name, and maybe her winning a news cycle.

I, of course, have no say in who the (D)s nominate. I don't really have strong feelings about Warren one way or the other in that regard.
   431. RoyalFlush Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5767871)
They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry. Let's dispense with the ellipses when I took the trouble to excerpt the whole relevant section:


As I read it, they don't dispute that DNA tests can identify Native American ancestry - they dispute that DNA test can confirm specific tribal heritage.
   432. Davo Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5767872)
Re: Warren

I am voting for whichever Dem wins the Primary. She’s not my first choice, of course, but she’s not awful; among the names being thrown around seriously I’d slot her way behind Bernie and Avenatti, about even with Gillibrand, but miles ahead of Booker, Biden, McAuliffe, Harris, etc.

I think she’s handled this Cherokee thing poorly, but I also find the issue wholly insignificant.
   433. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5767873)
I went from being a "Research Associate" to an "Assistant Research Professor" by a random email telling me the faculty was standardizing titles across departments, and that the title change was in no way, shape, or form a promotion.

Assistant Professor of Research, you say? Should be able to get a promotion somewhere out of that.
   434. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5767874)
To Sir ... With LOVE!!!!!


Yes.

Everybody is aware of how much it bothers you that the prior President was actually a pretty good one and a thoroughly decent, if imperfect guy and now you're stuck defending the indefensible more often than not.

Such a scenario would bother me, too.

Of course, if I found myself in such a situation, I would be more likely to question my preconception. But you have more problems than I alone can solve for you.
   435. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5767875)
Anyone who bangs the "cultural appropriation" drum should be forever regarded as a non-serious person.

Maybe. But people used to think rap music was a non-serious passing fad. Women who said they were raped by their husbands were considered non-serious people. Baseball dying has been a very, very serious concern for 150 years.

While certain non-serious things stay non-serious, others certainly become serious with time.
   436. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5767876)
I'm virtually certain we have now seen more posts on Warren's DNA test than we have on any single one of Trump's lies.

That's because Warren's defenders take accusations of dishonorable intentions seriously, whereas the concept of objective truth means absolutely nothing to Trump's supporters. 80% of them would vote for Roy Moore himself if the Republicans nominated him against Hillary or Elizabeth Warren.
   437. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5767877)
I honestly do not think I can describe in proper terms how little I care about 2020 Democratic primary at this moment.

It will be at least 8 months before I give any kind of damn whatsoever and probably closer to a year.
   438. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5767878)
They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry.


They didn't do that either. They said that taking a DNA testing, finding a trace of Native American ancestry, and then blaring and bleating out, "Indians? ME, TOO!!!" makes a mockery of DNA testing.

Which it does.

You made it sound like they were denying the science of OMG ALL DNA TESTING!!! and that was complete forked tongue.
   439. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5767879)
Meanwhile his Hero-in-Chief does a dozen things every day that show his unfitness for his current role, but because Judicial Appointments!(TM), Clapper practices selective myopia.


You misspelled \"#### gobbling."
   440. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5767880)
Everybody is aware of how much it bothers you that the prior President was actually a pretty good one and a thoroughly decent, if imperfect guy and now you're stuck defending the indefensible more often than not.


Not at all, but it was highly weird for a couple women in their mid-30s (or even younger) to sing "To Sir, With Love" to a big huge massive picture of the guy ... on national television. It's looking highly weirder with the passage of time as, among other things, you and yours blare about "cults."
   441. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5767881)
At the risk of sounding thick, I ask:

Why are the Cherokees so against a DNA test?


Mostly as a power play. Tribal rights are a huge deal, mostly because if you're officially designated as a member, you have claim to a share of that sweet, sweet casino cash.
   442. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5767882)
That's because Warren's defenders take accusations of dishonorable intentions seriously


LOL. Her intentions in having herself listed as "Native American" were dishonorable to their core, since she's no such thing and, even if the family lore was true, never was.
   443. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5767883)
Republicans might be concerned to know that one of their state legislature candidates just passed away...

I think I mentioned before that I happened to 'meet' him once (his... operations... are mostly in Nye county, where my dad lives).

The world won't miss him.
   444. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5767884)
Except you're using your reaction as a proxy for a typical democratic primary voter, which is obviously moronic.


IF the Dems nominate Elizabeth Warren, AND people use this idiotic right wing jackoff bullshit to not vote for her, those people should also join the outright Trump voters against a goddamned wall.
   445. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5767885)
IF the Dems nominate Elizabeth Warren, AND people use this idiotic right wing jackoff bullshit to not vote for her, those people should also join the outright Trump voters against a goddamned wall.


Sure thing, old man. Younger, smarter people than you see right through your con -- just as they did with Hillary. Best thing to do would probably be to stop trying to con them. But, hey -- that's me.
   446. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5767886)
That's because Warren's defenders take accusations of dishonorable intentions seriously, whereas the concept of objective truth means absolutely nothing to Trump's supporters.


Yup. Ray, nor SBB, nor Clapper, nor Jason, nor anyone else on the Trumpholster side of "deserves to go on living" give a flying good goddamned about truth, facts, or intellectual honesty.
   447. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5767888)
I am voting for whichever Dem wins the Primary.


As will literally EVERYONE who is actually concerned about the well being and salvaging of whatever's left of the republic.
   448. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5767889)
Not at all, but it was highly weird for a couple women in their mid-30s (or even younger) to sing "To Sir, With Love" to a big huge massive picture of the guy ... on national television. It's looking highly weirder with the passage of time as, among other things, you and yours blare about "cults."


Uh-huh.

Your ability to make comparisons that don't turn eyeballs into perpetually rolling balls remains as strong as ever.
   449. zenbitz Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5767890)
Warren's still too old. She might make a reasonable shell-catcher though.
   450. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5767892)
Is 433 like, an allusion I'm not getting?
   451. BDC Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5767893)
it was highly weird for a couple women in their mid-30s (or even younger) to sing "To Sir, With Love" to a big huge massive picture of the guy


My mother once went to a quilters' conference in the Appalachians somewhere, where some folks from the local community theater performed a show called "I Wonder If Eleanor Roosevelt Ever Made a Quilt." I think there was a song by that title, the big production number. This would have been in 1982 or so. Some politicians just have fans, and some keep them for a long time. Get over it.
   452. zenbitz Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5767896)
...were dishonorable to their core...


I am pretty sure that honor and honesty are inversely correlated with political success.
   453. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5767898)
Is 433 like, an allusion I'm not getting?

Apparently.
   454. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5767901)
My mother once went to a quilters' conference in the Appalachians somewhere, where some folks from the local community theater performed a show called "I Wonder If Eleanor Roosevelt Ever Made a Quilt." I think there was a song by that title, that was the big production number.


Female quilters singing a Catskills-type theatrical number to a dead First Lady versus two urbane mid-30s women non-ironically singing an earnest ode having nothing to do with the person to a Kim Jong Un-sized picture of a sitting president.

Hmm, any differences there? I mean, yeah, if they would have done some kind of campy, "Barack, Barack, he's our man//We're his number one fan!!" number on SNL, sure. But they did nothing of the sort.
   455. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5767902)
Is 433 like, an allusion I'm not getting?

With a few tweaks it could be a Dwight Schrute reference. But at the moment it's something else.
   456. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5767903)
My mother once went to a quilters' conference in the Appalachians somewhere, where some folks from the local community theater performed a show called "I Wonder If Eleanor Roosevelt Ever Made a Quilt." I think there was a song by that title, the big production number. This would have been in 1982 or so. Some politicians just have fans, and some keep them for a long time. Get over it.


No, I hope he doesn't get over it.

Dan's not the only one who keeps spreadsheets - I keep a tally of every time SBB notes that as his big gotcha. It's actually an impressive list.

Some day, if anyone ever appears on this site who ISN'T familiar with what SBB is -- I am planning to fill up an entire page with all of them.... just for fun... because I don't think anything quite captures the very essence of him as a poster like it.

The only downside risk I can think of is that he might welcome the change from being known as the kid who peed his pants going down that slide in the 2nd grade.

EDIT: FTR? The count is 63
EDIT2: Make that 64
   457. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5767904)
This would have been in 1982 or so. Some politicians just have fans, and some keep them for a long time. Get over it.

Like the Van Buren Boys.
   458. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5767906)
it was highly weird for a couple women in their mid-30s (or even younger) to sing "To Sir, With Love" to a big huge massive picture of the guy

Yeah, that's what's weird about that, not you going on and on about how so unbelievable weird it is.
   459. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5767907)
With a few tweaks it could be a Dwight Schrute reference. But at the moment it's something else.

This is BBTF-OTP, Mr. High Standards. Or should that be Professor High Standards?
   460. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5767908)
Yeah, that's what's weird about that, not you going on and on about how so unbelievable weird it is.


Yeah, because Johnny Horton doing a recorded song about Abe Lincoln and "To Sir, With Love" were *exactly* the same. And "Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming // We're finally on our own" is *exactly, precisely* the same as "To Sir, With Love."

We should at least try to keep a modicum of sanity on the proceedings here.

Or see 454. Here's a hint: The SNL thing wasn't weird and creepy simply because it involved a political figure or even a President.
   461. BDC Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5767909)
Here's another item from the fan-song files:

When Mr. Nixon mulled dumping Mr. Agnew from the ticket in 1972, {Frank} Sinatra rushed to the rescue with a letter-writing campaign that climaxed with a fund-raiser at Baltimore's Lyric Theatre. Bob Hope was master of ceremonies, and Mr. Sinatra strode out of retirement to sing "The Gentleman is a Champ" to the tune of "The Lady is a Tramp."


I actually remember Sinatra singing that song to Reagan, not Agnew, but maybe he sang it for lots of people. Anyway, all things considered, I'll take "To Sir With Love" :-D
   462. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5767911)
This is BBTF-OTP, Mr. High Standards. Or should that be Professor High Standards?

Assistant to the Professor of High Standards.
   463. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5767913)
I actually remember Sinatra


Right, he's a square. You expect that kind of thing from squares.

The SNL women aren't.

Anyway, all things considered, I'll take "To Sir With Love" :-D


Fine, we all have our tastes, but we'll put it in the memory bank for the next time someone blathers on about "cults" and "cult of personality." Trump didn't start the fire, that's for sure.
   464. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5767914)
Speaking of the cringe-comedy The Office , I'm not sure I could watch the entirety of that SNL song routine without wincing.

Not sure how that contributes to the current conversation, but that's never stopped me from interjecting before.
   465. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5767915)
I'm not sure I could watch the entirety of that SNL song routine without wincing.


It's highly icky. But unfortunately a sign of our times.

I was shocked to find out it was real. Kind of like someone doing a love song earnestly at karaoke or something, when everyone else is doing drunken versions of stuff like "Bennie and the Jets" or "Strutter" -- but even worse.

Yuck, ick, yuck. But of course defended on tribal -- read fatuous -- grounds for tribal purposes.
   466. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5767916)
Yeah, because Johnny Horton doing a recorded song about Abe Lincoln and "To Sir, With Love" were *exactly* the same. And "Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming // We're finally on our own" is *exactly, precisely* the same as "To Sir, With Love."

We should at least try to keep a modicum of sanity on the proceedings here.

Or see 454. Here's a hint: The SNL thing wasn't weird and creepy simply because it involved a political figure or even a President.


65
66
67
   467. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5767917)
Trump didn't start the fire, that's for sure.

Yeah, Ryan Howard did, with a cheese pita in the toaster oven.
   468. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5767918)
Not sure how that contributes to the current conversation, but that's never stopped me from interjecting before.


No, your comment is perfect. Much of SNL is kind of disposable and bad, and it is OK to say so. Pretending any particular instance of such is some critical benchmark of humanity it a sure sign of insanity, but you didn't do that.
   469. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5767919)
#466 - Dude, why are you punishing the rest of us by quoting stretchy? We already know he is a lunatic (and kind of dumb ... and a liar ... and ... well you get the idea).

I mean your cataloging project IS valuable, don't get me wrong, but selfishly I don't want to suffer for it.
   470. Davo Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5767921)
I actually remember Sinatra


Right, he's a square.

“You had a hit song called ‘My Way’
But someone else wrote it
You’re the least talented rat
In your whole pack of rodents
You’ve got four notes in your whole range
You can’t act and you can’t dance.”
   471. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5767922)
#466 - Dude, why are you punishing the rest of us by quoting stretchy? We already know he is a lunatic (and kind of dumb ... and a liar ... and ... well you get the idea).

I mean your cataloging project IS valuable, don't get me wrong, but selfishly I don't want to suffer for it.


Well, I suppose we could always go back to discussing Pickup Truck Scotty's primary line of attack from the 2012 MA-SEN election...
   472. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5767923)
Dude, why are you punishing the rest of us by quoting stretchy?


You already know the answer to that one. If you want some clarity on your perceptions, google "Reggie Jackson, Thurman Munson, Sport Magazine."
   473. RoyalFlush Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5767924)
This is BBTF-OTP, Mr. High Standards. Or should that be Professor High Standards?


High Standards Lecturer
   474. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5767925)
Well, I suppose we could always go back to discussing Pickup Truck Scotty's primary line of attack from the 2012 MA-SEN election...


OK, I concede, but I don't have to like it.
   475. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5767927)
Is 433 like, an allusion I'm not getting?


[ Ignored Comment ]
   476. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5767929)
To Sir ... With LOVE!!!!!


I know you absolutely love this hobby horse, but it wasn't an Obama thing per se. In 1992, 10,000 Maniacs along with Michael Stipe performed that song at the Clinton inaugural. SNL doing it for Obama was in part an homage to that performance.
   477. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5767930)
Kavanaugh was a big momentum killer.


In the immediate days following the Kav confirmation, 538's House model showed D takeover chances dip to below 75% for the first time since mid August. Since then they have bounced back, and then some, up to I believe a high of nearly 85% today.
   478. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5767934)
Not at all, but it was highly weird for a couple women in their mid-30s (or even younger) to sing "To Sir, With Love" to a big huge massive picture of the guy ... on national television. It's looking highly weirder with the passage of time as, among other things, you and yours blare about "cults."


Natalie Merchant and Michael Stipe
   479. McCoy Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5767936)
In the immediate days following the Kav confirmation, 538's House model showed D takeover chances dip to below 75% for the first time since mid August. Since then they have bounced back, and then some, up to I believe a high of nearly 85% today.

It's like some people haven't learned their lesson from 2008, 2012, and 2016. There is really no such thing as a momentum killer outside of the candidate dropping dead and there just isn't a lot of undecideds. It is rather pointless and silly to watch the poll numbers on a daily basis and think they mean something significant.
   480. RoyalFlush Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5767940)
Natalie Merchant and Michael Stipe


Love that performance. And the version of "One" with Edge/Larry.
   481. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5767942)
I think it is legitimately different for the tribal nations... as in, they are supposed to be some manner of sovereign within the US.


That is not what is meant these days by cultural appropriation.

It is more along the lines of "wearing a sombrero or serape which means you are stealing from the Mexicans".



   482. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5767943)
While certain non-serious things stay non-serious, others certainly become serious with time.


Not that.
   483. PepTech Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5767945)
Hmm, this guy isn't on Clapper's wish list of tired retread Dem candidates.

Maybe it's a little too early to assume anything about 2020.
   484. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5767948)
As will literally EVERYONE who is actually concerned about the well being and salvaging of whatever's left of the republic.


Which is, what, a whopping 5% of the population?
   485. Greg K Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5767953)
It may just be because I've been listening to the Clinton scandal season of "Slow Burn", but I can't help but think of Natalie Merchant as Monica Lewinsky singing "To Sir, with Love" in that clip.

Not sure who Michael Stipe is. Dick Morris?
   486. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5767955)
Trump didn't start the fire


It was always burning, since the world was turning?
   487. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5767957)
Hmm, this guy isn't on Clapper's wish list of tired retread Dem candidates.

Maybe it's a little too early to assume anything about 2020.


IDK... I think it's safe to assume that every eligible Democrat who has ever thought about being President is a potential 2020 candidate... and based on Trump's strong disapproval numbers, I imagine that field expands to include most non-Democrats who wish to run on a major party ticket, too.

Personally, as someone who will declare right here and now that I will NOT be running for President in 2020, I look forward to my primary vote basically being the difference.

I expect the winner to be a plurality winner - 2 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 to etc. I will be sorely vexed if the super delegates overrule the will of me, the lone voter not also running.
   488. PepTech Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5767959)
Trump playing chess today:
CNN reports one White House official isn’t sure if he’s trying to distract from the Saudi Arabia coverage, but the official says, hey, it’s something he’s good at doing,” Baldwin pointed out, referring to the suspected murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. “Translation, why yes, this appears to be a calculated move to get us talking about something else. But the truth is, the pressure is mounting, a journalist is feared murdered and this president still faces a decision on how to respond as questions grow over his own ties to the Saudis.”

“That is the reality. Now the misogyny,” she continued. “This comes at a time when he defends mocking a woman who spoke her truth, told her story of surviving sexual assault, chalking it up to mocking her doesn’t matter, ‘I won, I got Justice Kavanaugh,’ and now publicly criticizing a woman’s looks.”

Baldwin added: “No matter how often this happens, it should never be normal. This president has called women fat pigs, dogs, slops, disgusting, ugly, dumb, dumbest, dumb as a rock, unhinged, low life, Pocahontas. And now Trump calls Stormy Daniels a horseface.”

“You forgot the low IQ, which is the phrase he used in describing Congresswoman Maxine Waters (D-CA),” CNN legal analyst Areva Martin pointed out.
It is classic Trump; get people talking about his classlessness in general, instead of his specific holstering.

That any sane person would vote for Trump over... well, anybody, on moral grounds, is mind-boggling.
   489. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5767960)
She listed herself as Indian in a directory 20-30 years ago amidst a very successful academic career (I read excerpts from some of her work in law school). I don’t think she should have done that, but it’s a comparatively minor issue and iirc she apologized for overstating it years ago.This was brought up over and over in the 2012 senate campaign and I believe it was widely seen as dumb and desperate by the Brown campaign to harp on it. Granted, the national electorate is much more Republican and much dumber than the one in Massachusetts, and it’s fun cable news fodder (which is all that the president and his fans can process).
   490. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5767962)
They didn't do that either. They said that taking a DNA testing, finding a trace of Native American ancestry, and then blaring and bleating out, "Indians? ME, TOO!!!" makes a mockery of DNA testing.

Which it does.


No moreso than any other aspect of DNA testing for genetic markers associated with geographic isolation. But I know this is all really mysterious stuff for you, having to filter it through your Trumpholster funnel before it enters your throat to be regurgitated later.

You made it sound like they were denying the science of OMG ALL DNA TESTING!!! and that was complete forked tongue.


They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry. Let's dispense with the ellipses when I took the trouble to excerpt the whole relevant section:

Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven.


Once again you prove yourself to be heap-big phony. Shitting Bull Blanks, you're fortunate no DNA test can confirm the presence of congenital dumbth. Fortunately, we do have your post history.
   491. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5767965)
Is trump pro Saudi because they give him money, because they praised him when he visited, because he wouldn’t care about a journalist being murdered no matter who did it, or because of the Power of the Orb? (I know, I know, there is a bipartisan pro Saudi consensus, but even those guys were appalled by the recent murder).
   492. RoyalFlush Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5767967)
Not sure who Michael Stipe is. Dick Morris?


<audible gasp>
   493. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5767968)
That any sane person would vote for Trump over... well, anybody, on moral grounds, is mind-boggling.


In all fairness, I'm not sure than sane person ever did. It's mainly the congenitally stupid and the willfully deluded and I doubt their morality extended much beyond, "Take that, hippie!"
   494. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5767970)
Is trump pro Saudi because they give him money, because they praised him when he visited, because he wouldn’t care about a journalist being murdered no matter who did it, or because of the Power of the Orb?


Yes.
   495. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5767971)
Friendly reminder that a couple of weeks ago a story was published about the presidents family and the president himself defrauding the government out of hundreds of millions of dollars, and overcharging thousands of tenants as part of that scheme. I still can’t vekueve how little that was talked about!
   496. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5767973)
Hmm, this guy isn't on Clapper's wish list of tired retread Dem candidates.

How many politicians who aren't sufficiently popular to even run for statewide office in their home state become serious presidential candidates? Anything can theoretically happen, but Castro has yet to register in the polls or with the pundits.
   497. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5767975)
Friendly reminder that a couple of weeks ago a story was published about the presidents family and the president himself defrauding the government out of hundreds of millions of dollars, and overcharging thousands of tenants as part of that scheme. I still can’t vekueve how little that was talked about!


Well some woman took a DNA test without the approval of Chief Lucky Dealer, so that's a big deal.

Besides, tax fraud just makes him smart. Ask any of the Trumpholsters. G'wan, ask.
   498. TDF, trained monkey Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5767976)
   499. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5767977)
I still can’t vekueve how little that was talked about!


I cofeve.
   500. TDF, trained monkey Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5767978)
How many politicians who aren't sufficiently popular to even run for statewide office in their home state become serious presidential candidates?
Um...
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