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Monday, October 15, 2018

OTP 2018 October 15: The shift in focus from sport to politics

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1522 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   701. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5768840)
I don't really know what people are expecting out of Saudi Arabia, though. If this were Bob Woodward disappearing after heading into the White House to ask Jared Kushner about a Russia backchannel you might have something, but it's Saudi Arabia and they're simply playing a different game. It's not surprising at all to me that this happened.

Bullshit.

This such ignorant twaddle that you should LITERALLY be embarrassed by your own ignorance for saying it.

I guarantee you that this does NOT happen if there were any other US President -- that means Hillary or Rubio or Cruz or Romney or Obama or McCain or you name it.


That's laughable.

And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.
   702. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5768841)
As with virtually any substance, the dose makes the poison. SHS is generally not an issue at the levels at which bystanders are exposed to it. (There are some occupations for which that is not the case.) And marijuana smokers generally smoke less marijuana than cigarette smokers do cigarettes.


I don't know that the 'generally' qualifier is needed here... I mean, smoking a cigarette pack tobacco equivalent of marijuana? That's like... a lot.

Or so I've heard :-)
   703. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5768842)
That's laughable.

And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.


Pause as long as you like.

Doesn't change the truth of the matter.
   704. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5768844)
More on Denis Hof's (brothel keeper and NV State Senate candidate) passing...

Just hours earlier, Hof celebrated his birthday along with longtime friend and pornographic actor Ron Jeremy, former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, and anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist.

“The birthday party was last night at the Pahrump Nugget,” Wehrly said. “From what I understand, it was fine.”

His campaign consultant, Chuck Muth, tweeted that Jeremy found him Tuesday morning when he tried to wake Hof up to attend a lunch at the Pahrump Senior Center.

Norquist said in an email to The Nevada Independent that Hof seemed in high spirits on Monday as he held court at the party, which was scheduled to come on the heels of four days of celebration that included a cathouse crawl.

“He MC’ed the event last night for 3 hours. He had the crowd in stitches, regaling us all with stories from his work and campaign. He liked people and that crowd loved him back. Amazing to watch,” Norquist wrote. “He was full of life and energy last night and it is a very difficult to realize we lost him.”
   705. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5768845)
And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.

This is coming from a manchild who's always complaining about comments that don't have "substance".
   706. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5768846)
I think I've figured out the disconnect here. I'm not informed enough to understand the international relations issues at play. You're not rational enough to understand them, at least when it comes to this issue.

There's no shame in admitting ignorance.


Agreed, which is why I admitted it. As opposed to all the people here who suddenly became an expert on all the issues involved after reading a WaPo article.

Nobody can actually know everything about everything, as is pretended here.

(Also, free clue: ignorance is not synonymous with stupidity.)
   707. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5768849)
Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I know you roll your eyes, but I am simply aghast at this.


Yes, but that's your m.o. When you're not asking Questions you're Aghast.
   708. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5768850)
I don't think legalizing cannabis in Canada is going to change daily life for many people. Most of the cops I know stopped arresting people for smoking joints quite a few years ago; they have more important crimes to worry about
   709. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5768851)
How many cops do you know?
   710. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5768852)
Hof celebrated his birthday along with longtime friend and pornographic actor Ron Jeremy, former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, and anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist.
When I die and wake up in Hell, I suspect that I'll look around the room and see that it's something like this.
   711. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5768854)
Wow, I guess the nightly Ray-Cast turn a turn towards ... appeasement seems too soft. Every few months or so Ray goes completely "Catcher's throwing lane" on the bit. I don't remember that happening as regularly before Trump.

I must admit I do like that he continues to admit he knows nothing about the foreign policy of it all, before and after commenting on the situation and other poster's opinions about the situation. I am a little confused as to what "foreign policy" he needs to know to understand that killing law abiding and famous journalists is bad, and the way it was done is worse, but there you have it.


Now _this_ is a good example of ignorance vs. stupidity. It wasn't that Bitter Mouse didn't know what I wrote; he simply couldn't comprehend it. I didn't say that killing Khashoggi wasn't bad; I said I wasn't surprised by it, any more than I'm surprised when someone puts his or her hand on a hot stove and gets burned. Two different concepts entirely. But Bitter Mouse conflates them.
   712. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5768855)

*Checks Bible to see if James 2:24 is still in there… *


It is, as is James 2:17
*Checks* Nope. No such book in the Bible.
   713. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5768858)

Agreed, which is why I admitted it. As opposed to all the people here who suddenly became an expert on all the issues involved after reading a WaPo article.

Nobody can actually know everything about everything, as is pretended here.


There's a lot of territory between ignorance and expertise.

I've cited Foreign Policy and Foreign Affairs here multiple times - including on some of the items that led up to the latest Saudi nonsense (the Qatari situation last year in particular). Reading a couple publications regularly does not make me an expert.

But - if coming out with a strong opinion predicated on absolutely nothing more than being against the people and publications who are against Trump and then being called out on it hurts your snowflake feelings, then I will offer you two pieces of advice.

1. Don't expect me to give a #### about your precious snowflake feelings. Your insecurities are not my problem nor my concern.

2. More practically, perhaps you should re-calibrate your reflexive Trump defense mechanisms.
   714. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5768860)
Re 647 and “The State of Theology”:

‘Watering Down’ Church Teaching Won’t Attract Young People, Cardinal Sarah Says

Just because some young people disagree with Catholic moral teaching, including in the area of sexuality, does not mean the Church’s teachings are unclear or should change, Cardinal Robert Sarah told the Synod of Bishops.

The Church and its pastors should “courageously propose the Christian ideal corresponding to Catholic moral doctrine and not water it down, hiding the truth to attract young people to the bosom of the Church,” the cardinal told the synod Oct. 16.

Cardinal Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, noted how in preparation for the synod, some young people asked the Church to be clear in presenting its teaching on “some questions that are particularly close to their hearts: freedom across the board and not only in sexual relations, nondiscrimination based on sexual orientation, equality between men and women, including in the Church, etc.”

Others, however, “demand not only a discussion that is open and without prejudice, but also a radical change, a real and true U-turn by the Church in its teaching in these areas,” he said.

The Church’s teaching may not be shared by everyone, the cardinal said, but no one can say that it is not clear. However, there may be “a lack of clarity on the part of some pastors in explaining the doctrine” and that requires “a profound examination of conscience.”

An interesting bit from those theology surveys was that despite these “watering down” efforts, church-going millennials are becoming more traditional on some of the open-hand, sexual issues of the day (divorce, adultery, Same-Sex Attraction, etc.)
   715. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5768861)
Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I can only imagine what you might have said about Solzhentisyn after he was thrown into the Gulag. He wasn't so innocent, was he?


I see Bitter Mouse isn't the only who is not intelligent enough to comprehend what he reads. I didn't say Khashoggi was morally guilty of anything; I said he upset the wrong hornets nest and as such I wasn't surprised by his fate. I made the point that the brutal actions of the totalitarian dictatorship of Saudi Arabia show why Trump's administration is not those things, and the people who claim that Trump is running a dictatorial "regime" trivialize the real dictatorships. I also made the point that Khashoggi was not a "journalist" in the way we think of that term in the West.

Andy is not intelligent enough to understand any of those points.
   716. BDC Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5768862)
In Texas, there's apparently been a trend for prosecutors in urban areas to dismiss low-level marijuana-possession cases (though police still make as many arrests as ever). Though the implication of that linked story would seem to be that you still don't want to get caught with weed in rural counties.
   717. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5768863)
Played like a fiddle.

At best.

Twitter on Wednesday released a trove of 10 million tweets it says represents the full scope of foreign influence operations on the platform dating back nearly a decade — including Russia's consistent efforts to disparage Hillary Clinton and an initially erratic approach to Donald Trump that eventually settled on a concerted pro-Trump message during the 2016 campaign.

The huge data cache consists of tweets from some 3,400 accounts tied to the Kremlin troll farm known as the Internet Research Agency and 770 others linked to Iran. It also includes some two million gifs, videos and other visual content. Twitter said it's making the information available to "enable independent academic research and investigation," according to a company blog post.

The Russian tweets around the 2016 presidential election showed distinct patterns when it came to Clinton and Trump, according to researchers at the non-partisan Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab, which has been scouring the data since late last week.

While the Clinton animus was clear from the start, it took the IRA a while to settle on its Trump strategy, as the Republican primary played out.

* * *

He described "peaks and troughs — a lot of pro-Trump content and a lot of anti-Trump content" in 2015 and 2016, adding that Trump's GOP rival Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) got a similar mixed treatment while former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush was the target of negative content. But Nimmo said the messaging around Trump turned decidedly in his favor around the time the reality show star began locking up the Republican nomination.

That period of time is said to be of interest to investigators with special counsel Robert Mueller's team, which is looking into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election — including a June 2016 Trump Tower meeting between Trump campaign officials and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya.
   718. JL72 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5768865)
*Checks* Nope. No such book in the Bible.


Excellent point (and thanks for noting my mistake).

Both are found in the Christian bible.
   719. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5768867)
I chuckled at 712.
   720. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5768868)
There is no evidence that SBB is a person.

It's the exact opposite. I have different non-tribal opinions depending on the issue. The usual suspects are the actual bots here.


Obviously, which is what makes the irony.
   721. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5768869)
Yes, but that's your m.o. When you're not asking Questions you're Aghast.

Well, this is a conveniently horseshit fiction, which is not surprising.
   722. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5768870)
Cardinal Sarah

I did a double-take.
   723. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5768871)
I don't know that the 'generally' qualifier is needed here
This is BBTF. If I omitted the word, I'd have had six people pop up to tell me about their casual smoker friend who only smokes one cigarette every other day and their pothead friends who smoke nonstop from morning afternoon when they wake up until bed.
   724. Ishmael Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5768872)
*Checks* Nope. No such book in the Bible.

I know this refers to the Tanakh, but I like to think David's thumbing through his Muratorian Canon and only recognizes the Homologoumena.
   725. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5768875)
Ray to Zonk, #701:
And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.


OH SNAP. Brutal takedown from the guy who spent AN ENTIRE YEAR accusing others of phony homophobia. While knowing you were lying. After identically using the kind of "homophobic" language.

Something to remember the next 185 times you cry about people being "unwilling to engage your arguments."

Anyway, Ray, go on evaluating the inherent worthlessness of someone else's opinions based on past actions.
   726. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5768876)
Re 723. Nah it would be 5 since it would be unlikely that you would nitpick your own post.
   727. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5768881)
This is BBTF. If I omitted the word, I'd have had six people pop up to tell me about their casual smoker friend who only smokes one cigarette every other day and their pothead friends who smoke nonstop from morning afternoon when they wake up until bed.


Well, actually - perhaps it's due to being out of semi-regular practice, but I find that I tend be somewhat insomniac nowadays when partaking...

This could also mean I need to be more indica and less sativa... or so I've heard.
   728. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5768884)
And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.


As long as you give my opinion double weight, I suppose.
   729. CheersUnusualPlays Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5768885)
re: 709

All the police I know are in urban Ontario, specifically London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph and Toronto,so I have no idea about the attitudes of the police in redneck rural Ontario/Saskatchewan or surfer-dude British Columbia. I have three good friends who are Toronto police-men, a neighbor who is a traffic cop in London, and two relatives of friends in Guelph and K/W. From their comments, they only enforce the marijuana laws when directed to. There are some hard-core that just want to bust the hippies still out there, though
   730. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5768887)
I don't think legalizing cannabis in Canada is going to change daily life for many people. Most of the cops I know stopped arresting people for smoking joints quite a few years ago; they have more important crimes to worry about


In this direct a fashion, no (though, I understand people convicted of simple possession are largely/entirely going to get pardoned, which could be a big change for a lot of people). But undercutting organised crime, providing this huge tax stream means that it certainly will affect a lot of people in more downstream kinds of ways.
   731. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5768890)
Black senior citizens ordered off Georgia bus taking them to vote

Government officials in an east Georgia county told about 40 African-American senior citizens to get off a bus taking them to vote Monday, leading to complaints of voter suppression.

...A county clerk had called the senior center raising concerns about allowing the bus to take residents from the senior center in the city of Louisville, south of Augusta.

The senior citizens agreed to get off the bus and cast their ballots later. Monday was the first day of in-person early voting in Georgia in the election for governor between Democrat Stacey Abrams and Republican Brian Kemp.

(...)Jefferson County’s administrator said Tuesday that the county government considered the event at the senior center “political activity,” which isn’t allowed during county-sponsored events.

Black Voters Matter is a nonpartisan group encouraging African-Americans to vote in the election, but the county government considered the event political because Jefferson County Democratic Party Chairwoman Diane Evans helped organize it, County Administrator Adam Brett said in a statement.
   732. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5768898)
You have an ignorantly ridiculous or ridiculously ignorant line of trolling you want to pursue.


That's exactly the kind of line one would expect from a tribal bot.
   733. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5768899)
In this direct a fashion, no (though, I understand people convicted of simple possession are largely/entirely going to get pardoned, which could be a big change for a lot of people). But undercutting organised crime, providing this huge tax stream means that it certainly will affect a lot of people in more downstream kinds of ways.


Prior to Colorado's legalization, a lot of people poor-mouthed the potential tax revenue. Despite supporting legalization, I was actually among them - it just didn't make sense to me that the revenue would actually be that significant.

Turns out - the revenue is pretty significant... ~300 million in state tax revenue alone - that's not even counting anything collected via local taxes nor does it include any other revenue beyond the pure sin tax.

Illinois' budget deficit is about 14 billion. Illinois' population is a bit more than twice that of Colorado - not to mention, the wink-wink neighboring states and the fact that no state in the midwest US has yet done a complete legalization (though, I think Michigan has it on the fall ballot).

Purely from a state budget perspective, for a state absolutely desperate to fix its financial mess?

This really ought to be a no-brainer... We're actually talking about whole number percents of that gap that could be closed via something lots of people are doing anyway and the state's population centers have already decided to decriminalize in personal use quantities.
   734. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5768901)
Brutal takedown from the guy who spent AN ENTIRE YEAR accusing others of phony homophobia. While knowing you were lying. After identically using the kind of "homophobic" language.


My God, he's declaring ersatz victory in this one again.

Has to be a bot. No other explanation makes sense.
   735. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5768902)
That's exactly the kind of line one would expect from a tribal bot.


...said the global tribal bot.

Tell us more of this decline.
   736. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5768903)
And I do have to pause for a long while before giving weight to the opinions on the US presidency of one who fled to Canada.

As long as you give my opinion double weight, I suppose.


I generally find myself agreeing with you more often than I'd have thought (although you went off the rails when you concluded Kavanaugh was a gang rapist). But you're capable of putting together a coherent argument, and you understand that a strong argument is supported by facts. Contrast that with Andy who simply doesn't understand how to construct an argument, which is why all he can do is Whatabout. Thus when the discussion is about issue X Andy will pivot to issue Y -- Trump's tax returns or Trump's 4.2 billion lies or what not. He simply isn't capable of arguing the facts and issues (indeed it's clear he doesn't understand what an argument _is_). Neither is BM capable. Sam is too deranged to do so. And I don't know what YR, perros, and Davo are doing; some weird thread pollution stream.

Misirlou is certainly capable of arguing coherently but typically that only goes for non-Trumpian issues. Misirlou gets blinded with rage by Trump and that affects his ability to see the issues.

I don't have time to do everyone.
   737. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5768906)
Do SBB
   738. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5768907)
736 who’s the one who responds to even the mildest left-wing criticism of any vampire with a (D) after his name with “Vote Green, maaaaaan”? He’s my favorite. He even did that after leftists criticized Michael Avenatti!!!
   739. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5768908)
I generally find myself agreeing with you more often than I'd have thought (although you went off the rails when you concluded Kavanaugh was a gang rapist). But you're capable of putting together a coherent argument, and you understand that a strong argument is supported by facts. Contrast that with Andy who simply doesn't understand how to construct an argument, which is why all he can do is Whatabout. Thus when the discussion is about issue X Andy will pivot to issue Y -- Trump's tax returns or Trump's 4.2 billion lies or what not. He simply isn't capable of arguing the facts and issues (indeed it's clear he doesn't understand what an argument _is_). Neither is BM capable. Sam is too deranged to do so. And I don't know what YR, perros, and Davo are doing; some weird thread pollution stream.

Misirlou is certainly capable of arguing coherently but typically that only goes for non-Trumpian issues. Misirlou gets blinded with rage by Trump and that affects his ability to see the issues.

I don't have time to do everyone.


I take it as a compliment that you're afraid of me.
   740. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5768910)
Wall is a TTO poster. Takes big swings, lots of whiffs, occasional walk, when he connects (*), Judgeian launch angle and exit velo. Good bellweather for the millennial left.

(*) As with the Warren stuff yesterday which Andy laughably pooh-poohed with his usual, "What are you saying?" bit after Wall said a bunch of stuff better than Andy ever says anything. Which to be fair, was kind of a piece with the general, highly robotic, usual suspect perspective -- "How can you say anything bad about anything anywhere when the White House is occupied by Donald Trump????" For normal people, life outside his Orangeness proceeds apace and is worthy of independent comment and evaluation. Orange guys can't be black holes.
   741. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5768913)
This is fun reading!

I don't have the money to buy all the tell-all BTF memoirs, so this is the only way I get to find out what everyone thinks of everyone else.
   742. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5768917)
Do SBB


Not a troll in the least; everyone has him pegged wrong there. He's sui generis and people mistake that for trollism (presuming they're being honest in calling him that, which I doubt). I also have no doubt that he's a lawyer -- it would be weird to make that up on a message board one is posting to anonymously, for starters. But lawyers are so specialized that a lawyer who makes an argument outside of his or her practice area could be mistaken for a non-lawyer and that's probably occasionally happened to SBB, as it has for all of us. SBB can do IRAC so I don't know why people would doubt he's a lawyer.

I take him at face value: someone who is not wedded to a particular ideology like socialism or conservatism and so he comes at most issues from a fresh perspective, not shackled to a tribe or its groupthink. Most everyone else here is shackled. I'd say David isn't, and Brian isn't. Dan is pure libertarianism which means that he finds himself in both camps at times depending on the issues, as does David, as do I.

PreservedFish comes at things from a certain perspective but he always shows a willingness to break from that, which I find admirable.

TShipman is bright; his problem is that he starts with his conclusions.

BDC is clearly on one side of the aisle but he always brings an intelligent argument with something to consider, even if he's often seething with a barely concealed mask of rage :-)

Howie is a good egg. He tries too hard to play it down the middle even though he's clearly on the right. He should just say what he thinks.
   743. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5768923)
Yes I do now separate Wall from the detritus of YR, Sam, and Perros -- whereas I didn't before. Wall is clearly ever-angry but he's also able to see the light too at times, as he did with Elizabeth Warren for example. Others are just too wedded to their ideology to bring themselves to admit the truth of a matter, such as Warren's behavior then and now stinking to high heaven.

Zonk...... he's not a bad guy. His posts are too stream of consciousness and I wish he'd make them crisper so I wouldn't have to skip them so often. He lost his #### over Trump being elected. It happens. But he's redeemable in a way that Sam is not. Sam broke when Trump was elected; I doubt he's salvageable at this point, as he's fallen too far. And I've met Sam and like him. His behavior on this board is concerning.
   744. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5768927)
It's not that complicated. The thesis in What's the Matter with Kansas??? is essentially correct. The two parties in fact did "agree" to essentially put the capital/labor struggle off-book, and turned American politics and elections into a battle over "culture." And while all that happened, labor became worse and worse off, even as many people with only labor to sell idiotically voted for the party that favors capital marginally more than the other party.

That leaves those of us who continue to pay attention to the plight of laborers without a tribe and left to do little more than to tell the culture tribes to stop and start paying attention to capital and labor. One would think that the the election of Orange Julius -- who was in fact elected because he was the only candidate who appeared to overtly sympathize with the plight of labor -- would put capital/labor back on-book, but no, of course not. Instead, the response was for the tribes to get even more tribal and even more extreme.

The same essential story is going on in Europe, with some mildly changed details.

This is the short, but highly accurate, description of our era. Committed tribalists don't agree, but there's no reason to expect that they would.(*) So when they don't, it's really no skin off this back.

(*) Indeed, to the committed tribalist, there can be no explanation for Trump's election beyond the tribal. Thus, the vastly, vastly exaggerated "white nationalism deplorables xenophobes," etc. shtick.
   745. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5768932)
Prior to Colorado's legalization, a lot of people poor-mouthed the potential tax revenue. Despite supporting legalization, I was actually among them - it just didn't make sense to me that the revenue would actually be that significant.

Turns out - the revenue is pretty significant... ~300 million in state tax revenue alone - that's not even counting anything collected via local taxes nor does it include any other revenue beyond the pure sin tax.

Illinois' budget deficit is about 14 billion. Illinois' population is a bit more than twice that of Colorado - not to mention, the wink-wink neighboring states and the fact that no state in the midwest US has yet done a complete legalization (though, I think Michigan has it on the fall ballot).

Purely from a state budget perspective, for a state absolutely desperate to fix its financial mess?

This really ought to be a no-brainer... We're actually talking about whole number percents of that gap that could be closed via something lots of people are doing anyway and the state's population centers have already decided to decriminalize in personal use quantities.


I would imagine tax revenue will go down once selling pot becomes ubiquitous. NJ used to rake in the tax revenue because of gambling but that was before every single city and state got a casino and the tax revenue has fallen greatly.
   746. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5768933)
A single tear rolls down my cheek as I discover I am but just a minnow.
   747. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5768938)
This is BBTF. If I omitted the word, I'd have had six people pop up to tell me about their casual smoker friend who only smokes one cigarette every other day and their pothead friends who smoke nonstop from morning afternoon when they wake up until bed.


You might want to take a look in the mirror, counselor.
   748. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5768939)
744. -- Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5768927)
It's not that complicated. The thesis in What's the Matter with Kansas??? is essentially correct. The two parties in fact did "agree" to essentially put the capital/labor struggle off-book, and turned American politics and elections into a battle over "culture." And while all that happened, labor became worse and worse off, even as many people with only labor to sell idiotically voted for the party that favors capital marginally more than the other party.

I haven’t read the book, but damn, yeah, that seems to hit the nail right on the head. (And explain why as someone whose “culture war” views straddle both tribes, I don’t have much affinity with the Democratic Party, even though I’m 100% on the side of labor over capital.)
   749. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5768947)

You might want to take a look in the mirror, counselor.


You owe me a coke!
   750. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5768950)
You owe me a coke!


I don't give cokes to minnows. If you don't make Ray's list, you are nothing to me.
   751. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5768951)
Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I can only imagine what you might have said about Solzhentisyn after he was thrown into the Gulag. He wasn't so innocent, was he?

I see Bitter Mouse isn't the only who is not intelligent enough to comprehend what he reads. I didn't say Khashoggi was morally guilty of anything; I said he upset the wrong hornets nest and as such I wasn't surprised by his fate.


When you combine scare quotes around "journalist" with the rest of what you wrote, it's impossible not to infer that you see Khashoggi as a morally ambiguous character. By those scare quotes you give your game away. You could just as easily use the same scare quotes to describe Solzhenitsyn as a "writer", since he was also an opponent of the Soviet regime.

But then the only time I remember you voicing any moral concerns was when you said Trump had a moral obligation to use whatever means necessary, including the use of Russian contacts, to get dirt on Hillary. Other than that, your views on morality seem to consist of the immorality of forcing a baker to bake a cake for a gay couple.

And the fact that you weren't surprised at what happened is vacuous. Nobody was surprised at what happened, other than the details. This is what authoritarian rulers do: Kill their opponents when their opponents begin to embarrass them.
   752. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5768952)
Two tears now!
   753. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5768955)
Zonk...... he's not a bad guy. His posts are too stream of consciousness and I wish he'd make them crisper so I wouldn't have to skip them so often. He lost his #### over Trump being elected. It happens. But he's redeemable in a way that Sam is not. Sam broke when Trump was elected; I doubt he's salvageable at this point, he's fallen too far. And I've met Sam and like him. His behavior on this board is concerning.


If anyone wants to do a GoFundMe to compensate me for postin in a more formal and less stream of conscious fashion, I'm certainly game - and would probably come relatively cheap. I'm capable of it, I just don't consider it a good use of time typing up something that all of a dozen eyes are going to read... virtually - if not - all of whom wouldn't be changing their premade minds on the matter at hand anyway.

But in any case....

What if I'm right?

Said it before, but it needs to be said again. Too many people have this odd manner of employing a reading of history that pretends years of events, actions, reactions, etc occurred in the space of time it took to read a summary of them. It's a real temporal blind spot.

Especially in developed nations, we've rarely to never seen the obvious monster just immediately smashing villages, firing up the ovens, and whatnot. It's never worked that way... in failed states, imperialist leftovers - sure.

In all of those instances where the monster takes years - sometimes, even a series of monsters - people have always tried to sound alarm bells in the earliest days... and too many people always claim its an overreaction... until it isn't and it's too late, at least, too late without a lot of destruction, blood, and misery.

I object to attempts to normalize and excuse Trump. I object to the minimization of elements - Putin, this current Saudi Arabia discussion - that are clear markers of concern.

Worst of all, though? With every passing day, I have less and less faith that any of the nominal Trump defenders would EVER do a damn thing - even the most minimal damn thing of just stop defending him, little even holding a nose and voting against him - if he actually was "that".

The most brutal and dictatorial regimes in history have never relied upon too numerous to count legions of enforcers and secret police to do that which they do. The idea that the KGB or GRU or the Gestapo or OVRA or anything else like them had such huge numbers and control is a myth. They always relied on a minority cadre of true believers - and moreso (and worse) - enough of the rest who were fine just shrugging their shoulders, going about their business, and on occasion even excusing the excesses with the even occasionally correct "well, some of the enemies being suppressed are actually enemies worthy of suppression".

   754. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5768958)
I would imagine tax revenue will go down once selling pot becomes ubiquitous. NJ used to rake in the tax revenue because of gambling but that was before every single city and state got a casino and the tax revenue has fallen greatly.


No doubt.

But there's still a window open - especially for a state like Illinois, actually desperate for a window to escape its immediate fiscal conflagration.

Making long term - as in, thinking ~10 years down the road - plans wouldn't be wise... but for now? Just shoring up state finances, shoring up pension obligation payments, getting the state credit rating out of the dumpster.

There's real value to be had.
   755. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5768960)
I suppose it's a matter of taste. I tend to appreciate zonk's style because I often post the same way. More an exercise in thinking out loud than carefully organizing my thoughts into an argument.

There are times when more organization is called for, but sometimes I like peering into someone's thought process.
   756. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5768962)
zonk should work in some Joycean interludes
   757. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5768965)
I made the point that the brutal actions of the totalitarian dictatorship of Saudi Arabia show why Trump's administration is not those things, and the people who claim that Trump is running a dictatorial "regime" trivialize the real dictatorships.


The only reason Trump and his people aren't dicing up WaPo journalists that annoy them is that they lack the power to get away with it outright. If they thought they could, they would.
   758. The Fallen Reputation of Billy Jo Robidoux Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5768967)
.
   759. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5768969)
But he's redeemable in a way that Sam is not. Sam broke when Trump was elected; I doubt he's salvageable at this point, as he's fallen too far. And I've met Sam and like him. His behavior on this board is concerning.


Oh precious. Is your snowflakes all aflame? Do your feels hurt? #### off. I'll salvage myself when the current regime is twitching on grainy cell phone video.
   760. Lassus Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5768970)
And I've met Sam and like him. His behavior on this board is concerning.

Over-the-top shtick is nowhere near as concerning as daily and now what appears to be regular acceptance and justification of torture and murder because someone had a life outside of their journalism work. I understand you're following your Adams-approved leader's example, but you should be better than that.
   761. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5768972)
I don't give cokes to minnows. If you don't make Ray's list, you are nothing to me.


I know right? I have been name checked by Ray several times on this page alone. I must admit it feels pretty good, especially when it is the cutting attack circa 5th grade of "no, you are dumb!".

No wonder he loves Trump so much. "No puppet, no puppet. You the puppet!"
   762. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5768973)
If anyone wants to do a GoFundMe to compensate me for postin in a more formal and less stream of conscious fashion, I'm certainly game - and would probably come relatively cheap. I'm capable of it, I just don't consider it a good use of time typing up something that all of a dozen eyes are going to read... virtually - if not - all of whom wouldn't be changing their premade minds on the matter at hand anyway.

But in any case....


15 years ago it would be a rare thing for me to post a 4 sentence post. I used to post in Cubs.com and eventually here and other places multi paragraph long posts that I would actually proof read for mistakes and have it contain plenty of evidence and facts for the point of view I was taking. But that is largely done with nowadays. I don't have the time and I've come to realize that most arguments on the internet are pointless. Very few people care if they are right or wrong about any given topic and they really don't care what the other guy's viewpoint is.

I basically argue about things that I would find interesting to monologue about or research.
   763. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5768974)
I see Bitter Mouse isn't the only who is not intelligent enough to comprehend what he reads. I didn't say Khashoggi was morally guilty of anything; I said he upset the wrong hornets nest and as such I wasn't surprised by his fate.

When you combine scare quotes around "journalist" with the rest of what you wrote, it's impossible not to infer that you see Khashoggi as a morally ambiguous character.


It actually is impossible to infer that. One literally -- and I do mean literally -- has nothing to do with the other.

Jamal Khashoggi and David Brooks are both journalists in the same way that Mike Trout and I are both baseball players. Khashoggi is playing in a different league altogether.

(I leave aside the distinction between opinion columnist and reporter for these purposes as it's not relevant to the issue at hand, but it was my sense from quick research that Khashoggi wasn't really a reporter so much as he was an opinion columnist -- at least as far as his journalism is concerned. He was far more than a journalist, as I've noted.)

This is what authoritarian rulers do: Kill their opponents when their opponents begin to embarrass them.


Starting to see yet why Trump is not one?
   764. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5768976)
The most brutal and dictatorial regimes in history have never relied upon too numerous to count legions of enforcers and secret police to do that which they do. The idea that the KGB or GRU or the Gestapo or OVRA or anything else like them had such huge numbers and control is a myth.


The actual Brownshirts began as an ad hoc "citizen militia patrolling" the Polish border to preserve the sanctity of the glorious German nation from subhuman, traitorous Poles.
   765. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5768977)
Worst of all, though? With every passing day, I have less and less faith that any of the nominal Trump defenders would EVER do a damn thing - even the most minimal damn thing of just stop defending him, little even holding a nose and voting against him - if he actually was "that".


It's ... interesting ... that you would issue this criticism of others when just yesterday you stated that you were throwing in the towel on street violence and were simply going to root for your side to "win" the street fights.
   766. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5768978)
The only reason Trump and his people aren't dicing up WaPo journalists that annoy them is that they lack the power to get away with it outright. If they thought they could, they would.


Translation: In the fantasy world I've concocted wherein Trump's a fascist, Trump's a fascist.
   767. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5768982)
Starting to see yet why Trump is not one?


Because he does not (yet) have control of all of the apparatus of the state required to insulate his desired actions from repercussion. If he could, he would. He doesn't behave fully like his idols - Putin, Duterte, MSB and the Sauds - only because the bulwarks and institutions of the American system are only failing, but not yet fully failed.

If he could, he would. He's a fascist. He's checked literally every box in the academic definition of fascism, and has since 2015. Hell, even Kneepant's stupid ass figured this one out.
   768. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5768983)
And I've met Sam and like him. His behavior on this board is concerning.

Over-the-top shtick


Is it?

is nowhere near as concerning as daily and now what appears to be regular acceptance and justification of torture and murder because someone had a life outside of their journalism work. I understand you're following your Adams-approved leader's example, but you should be better than that.


I didn't justify his torture and murder, and I "accepted" it only in the sense of "accepting" that water is wet.

He rattled the cage of a brutal regime and they killed him for it, and in a horrific way to boot. That's not surprising in the least. Of course it's evil.

(As to Adams: I haven't read or listened to anything he's said on this topic. Nor have I read or listened to anything any opinion columnist has said about it. My opinions are my own. I doubt you'll find them anywhere else, actually.)
   769. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5768986)
I’m no historian—in fact I am barely literate—but I sure took home a lot of lessons from William Sheridan Allen’s The Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town 1922-1945.

The book, as you can surmise from the title, is in fact the history of a wholly unremarkable small-ish German town. (Population of 10,000; small enough that Hitler never had a rally there.) And Zonk’s post gets it really right: in the early days, the only “Nazis” in town were the angry nihilist destructive men who have always been around, eager for an excuse to bash heads and raise hell. (The types who were first to sign up for the SS.) But they were getting like 1-2% in the polls, they were a joke. Until....and not to get to Gladwellian, but a major fulcrum of change cane when one respected townsman (a teacher, bookstore owner, chair of a few local committees and such) came around and started supporting them, even flying the Swastika outside his bookshop. And after that there was a kinda “Well I thought the Nazis were radicals looking for trouble, but if the Bookstore Owner thinks they’re legit, maybe we’ve had it all wrong.”

And so they get bigger and bigger and bigger (as otherwise a-political people see the Nazis as their ticket to safety and security) and before you know it, it’s too late to resist.

Highly recommend (though, again, I am 10,000 miles from being an historian.)
   770. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5768993)
There's been no "seizure of power" by Donald Trump. Not an iota of one. To the extent informal power has been "seized" by anyone or any institution, it's been done as a means to keep him in check. (*) Power was "seized" more by Rod Rosenstein in his clearly contrary to the letter and proper understanding of the law appointment of Robert Mueller. Power was "seized" more by the adoption and attempted pre-election "insurance policy" undertaken by the senior faction at the FBI.

(*) And successfully so.
   771. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5768995)
in the early days, the only “Nazis” in town were the angry nihilist destructive men who have always been around, eager for an excuse to bash heads and raise hell. (The types who were first to sign up for the SS.)


"Proud Boys."
   772. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5768998)
"Proud Boys."


"Antifa."

   773. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5769000)

Perros, if I understand your point correctly you're upset the Magnitsky Act isn't being applied to Saudi Arabia? You will be thrilled to learn that a bipartisan group of senators sent a letter to Trump last week calling for an investigation and invoking the Magnitsky Act.


The discussion here should include the GMA with regard to the extrajudicial killing of Khashoggi. I well realize laws are not uniformally, and that the law gives POTUS discretion. My understanding is that it targets specific individuals and not governments, which allows further leeway in who is judged accountable.

More significantly,this Saudi killing adds to the evidence that the US -- beyond its open hostility to the ICC weakening any international moral authority -- is losing power to act in it's own national self-interest on an international stage.... A fact that pre-dates Trump and Obama that reached a critical point with our response to 9/11 and the Iraq War.

Obama's wholesale move to covert warfare continues in the trend of using mercenary forces beyond the law ourselves, and the Erik Princes as likely to work for the UAE and China.

More likely, in fact.
   774. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5769004)
Young men with no prospects, no families, and no faith.

(Most were also WW1 veterans, which was likely a factor in their being better organized and more disciplined than the various Proud Boy/Unite the Right-type groups around today.)
   775. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5769005)
I well realize laws are not uniformally, and that the law gives POTUS discretion.


This would be relevant if we actually had a POTUS.
   776. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5769008)
(Most were also WW1 veterans, which was likely a factor in their being better organized and more disciplined than the various Proud Boy/Unite the Right-type groups around today.)


There's a very practical reason the militia right has gone hard in recruiting former Iraq/Afghan veterans (and placing their own people in the services outright, now that recruitment standards have dropped so low.)
   777. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5769009)
Antifa.


Sam and I side with the antifascists, while you, if not actively joining the fascists, will stand to the side and wring your hands over a liberalism evidently in its terminal stages. Though adopting the Trumpian post-Charlottesville argument says you've actually picked a side.
   778. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5769010)
This would be relevant if we actually had a POTUS.


We do, although to be sure he kind of sucks. He was elected under long-standing and entirely just constitutional principles and mechanisms. Your call for anti-constitutional measures, including violence, against him and the people that voted for him and your continued insistence on his illegitimacy, borders on sedition and treason. Indeed, if Trump was actually the "fascist" you dream him to be, his people would be monitoring boards like this and you would have been put under arrest months ago. Your very freedom to continue to spout your silly bile (*) puts the lie to your silly claims.

(*) Which despite your fevered fantasies is under no threat whatsoever, not even from Twitter harpies.
   779. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5769012)
I would imagine tax revenue will go down once selling pot becomes ubiquitous. NJ used to rake in the tax revenue because of gambling but that was before every single city and state got a casino and the tax revenue has fallen greatly.


This is sort of true, but New Jersey ain't a great example, because it was an easy weekend jaunt from a lot of big population centers, and gambling was otherwise actually really hard to find. Going to Atlantic City for a weekend of gambling is a far more plausible trip than flying to Denver to smoke a few joints. Also, weed is being sold everywhere, it's just not being taxed, so I wouldn't expect the weed vacation to be nearly so big a part of the market.

So, yes, it might relax. But not nearly totally. The StatsCan estimated Canadians were spending ~$5 billion/year on Marijuana - even without tourists, just working with that number, you can probably figure you can eat half of it as tax (which would be less than booze or non-wacky tabbacky), and not increase the price as the street price is strongly inflated by the need to grow/import it illegally. And, policing costs go down (or more realistically, reallocated), prison costs go down, etc. So, yeah, it's a nice pot of money.
   780. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5769013)
So, yes, it might relax. But not nearly totally. The StatsCan estimated Canadians were spending ~$5 billion/year on Marijuana - even without tourists, just working with that number, you can probably figure you can eat half of it as tax (which would be less than booze or non-wacky tabbacky), and not increase the price as the street price is strongly inflated by the need to grow/import it illegally. And, policing costs go down (or more realistically, reallocated), prison costs go down, etc. So, yeah, it's a nice pot of money.

There might be a modest growth in consumers too.

I haven't bought pot since high school, and was unlikely to ever buy any again. But I can see myself doing so now at some point. There probably aren't a ton of people like me (it's not like pot was hard to get a hold of last week), but there's probably a few.
   781. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5769014)
Sam and I side with the antifascists


I assume the "antifa" thing you quote was from one of SBB's ignored comments. It's typical of the level of spineless whoremongering and nihilism masquerading as "true liberalism" he tends to #### forth. It's the same sort of thing Howie does under the guise of "moderation." Clapper is outright Vichy. He is fully willing to support fascism in America in order to appoint his preferred crypto-fascist elements to the courts. SBB and Howie are just too goddamned soft, both mentally and physically, to understand the stakes a play. If their molly coddled minds ever allowed them to actually see the world as it is and as it is becoming, then they'd have to actually consider the physical. Which, stretchy band ninja skills notwithstanding, terrifies both of them into complete submission.
   782. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5769015)
Brexit fascinates me - in a Zamboni crash way - and so I follow articles about it. Here are two that showed up in Google news, minutes apart from each other.

Europe Offers Britain an Olive Branch to Break Brexit Impasse

EU leaders prepare hardball Brexit summit for May

And that pretty much sums up everything we know about what is going to happen :)
   783. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5769016)
Though adopting the Trumpian post-Charlottesville argument says you've actually picked a side.


There were good men on both sides of those French beaches, man.
   784. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5769019)
More significantly,this Saudi killing adds to the evidence that the US -- beyond its open hostility to the ICC weakening any international moral authority -- is losing power to act in it's own national self-interest on an international stage.... A fact that pre-dates Trump and Obama that reached a critical point with our response to 9/11 and the Iraq War.

If this is true it is largely because of US citizens have lost their will to wage war.* After Vietnam the US government had been very hesitant about sending troops into war and did so rarely and in limited engagements. By the time Iraq came around we had a mixture of political stupidity in terms of planning and consequences coupled with a healthy dose of false ego which sent us right down the Vietnam hole again. Which led us right back to being hesitant to wage war. We as a nation don't want to fight wars.


*Though it is debatable that we ever really had the thirst for war. We're a nation that disbanded our armed forces after almost all of our conflicts up until after WW2 and even then our armed forces were undermanned and ill equipped to wage war in Korea. It wasn't really until after Korea that we maintained a large standing armed forces. We're a nation that longed believed in isolation and was against "entangling alliances". About the only war the people of the United States wanted was the Spanish American War and that happened largely because the US public believed the Spanish had already attacked us. I guess you might be able to put the Mexican-American war in the mid 19th century on that side as well but I would say that the public's response was largely mute on that one.
   785. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5769020)
I assume the "antifa" thing you quote was from one of SBB's ignored comments. It's typical of the level of spineless whoremongering and nihilism masquerading as "true liberalism" he tends to #### forth.


This is utterly delusional. If you actually get off the keyboard and engage in political street violence -- you won't, but we can play this out -- the still-essentially-liberal state will have no problem finding you and jailing you and that would be a victory for liberalism.

SBB and Howie are just too goddamned soft, both mentally and physically, to understand the stakes a play.


LOL. So says the guy who's so mentally soft he brags over and over about putting people on ignore.

The only "stakes at play" are in your fevered imagination. If there were actual "stakes at play" the likes of which you imagine there are, smarter people than you would have realized it long ago.
   786. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5769022)
If this is true it is largely because of US citizens have lost their will to wage war.*


A strange argument considering that we've literally been waging war for the last quarter century, non-stop.

I think you confuse a religious belief that America will win every war, easily and without death of "our boys," because of technological might and Baby Jesus's gracious loving smile as we murderate them filthy musselmen with a "lost will to wage war."
   787. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5769023)
they'd have to actually consider the physical.


I'm too old for any rough stuff, but there are plenty of ways to fight regardless. Unfortunately, I am acquainted with people who had to punch Nazis to protect civil protesters from attack.

I think it's pretty obvious the rot is far deeper than Trump, though his announced run for the Presidency was 100 percent the catalyst for where we find ourselves today.
   788. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5769026)
Worst of all, though? With every passing day, I have less and less faith that any of the nominal Trump defenders would EVER do a damn thing - even the most minimal damn thing of just stop defending him, little even holding a nose and voting against him - if he actually was "that".

It's ... interesting ... that you would issue this criticism of others when just yesterday you stated that you were throwing in the towel on street violence and were simply going to root for your side to "win" the street fights.


If by "interesting" you mean entirely logical... OK, I guess.

I mean, my preference - if I were a German in 1932 - would have been 'No Deals with the NSDAP! No normalization. No 'we've hired him'. Nein, nein, nein!'.

Roughly a year in 1933? I wouldn't want to replace the NSDAP with the KDP... but with the NSDAP being the ones in power and the KPD the ones in the street fighting them?

I wouldn't have hit the streets with the KPD by any stretch... but sure, beat up those Nazis... maybe topple the government...
   789. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5769027)
Brexit fascinates me - in a Zamboni crash way - and so I follow articles about it. Here are two that showed up in Google news, minutes apart from each other.

Europe Offers Britain an Olive Branch to Break Brexit Impasse

EU leaders prepare hardball Brexit summit for May

And that pretty much sums up everything we know about what is going to happen :)

My general sense is that the EU has shown far more solidarity than expected, and the UK has been even more divided than expected. Not only in that British politics are divided between Remainers and Leavers, but that both major UK parties are divided internally. At the moment it doesn't look like the UK government is going to be able to come together on any kind of deal by the March 2019 deadline.

The main hold up is the UK's inability to agree to a coherent negotiating position and the virtual open rebellion within the Conservative Party. But none of the front runners want to unseat May until after the deal is completed. So it's sort of like a vicious circle.

In a zero-sum world dealing with such a weak and divided adversary is good news for the EU. But since the EU actually wants a deal of some kind, an extended transition period makes sense from their perspective, I think.
   790. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5769028)
This is sort of true, but New Jersey ain't a great example, because it was an easy weekend jaunt from a lot of big population centers, and gambling was otherwise actually really hard to find. Going to Atlantic City for a weekend of gambling is a far more plausible trip than flying to Denver to smoke a few joints. Also, weed is being sold everywhere, it's just not being taxed, so I wouldn't expect the weed vacation to be nearly so big a part of the market.


Liquor is ubiquitous and in Colorado they made something like 45 million dollars in taxes in 2017. Cigarettes are ubiquitous and they made something like 41 million last year. Marijuana is not ubiquitous and they made over 200 million dollars in taxes on it last year. That is not going to last.
   791. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5769029)
fully like his idols - Putin, Duterte, MSB and the Sauds


Go ahead and add Bolsonaro to the list.
   792. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5769031)
A strange argument considering that we've literally been waging war for the last quarter century, non-stop.


And the wars and the Muslim-killin' didn't abate a bit even under Barack (To Sir, with Love) Obama. Nor did the quashing by the millions of the American dreams of "brown people."

Nobody but weirdos gives such a #### about the style of the chief executive in the face of the essential substantive continuity.
   793. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5769032)
*Though it is debatable that we ever really had the thirst for war. We're a nation that disbanded our armed forces after almost all of our conflicts up until after WW2 and even then our armed forces were undermanned and ill equipped to wage war in Korea. It wasn't really until after Korea that we maintained a large standing armed forces. We're a nation that longed believed in isolation and was against "entangling alliances". About the only war the people of the United States wanted was the Spanish American War and that happened largely because the US public believed the Spanish had already attacked us. I guess you might be able to put the Mexican-American war in the mid 19th century on that side as well but I would say that the public's response was largely mute on that one.

Interestingly, you could make a similar description of the British Empire in the 18th and 19th centuries. Avoiding entangling alliances in Europe and having only a limited standing army were the pillars of British foreign policy for a long time.

EDIT: As well as the willingness to bankroll a world police force being somewhat diminished by costly war.
   794. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5769033)


And the wars and the Muslim-killin' didn't abate a bit even under Barack (To Sir, with Love) Obama. Nor did the quashing by the millions of the American dreams of "brown people."

Nobody but weirdos gives such a #### about the style of the chief executive in the face of the essential substantive continuity.


I don't think abate is the right word.
   795. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5769035)
Liquor is ubiquitous and in Colorado they made something like 45 million dollars in taxes in 2017. Cigarettes are ubiquitous and they made something like 41 million last year. Marijuana is not ubiquitous and they made over 200 million dollars in taxes on it last year. That is not going to last.


Perhaps. But Canadian governments (Federal + Provincial) did make ~$5 billion on alcohol tax (in 2012), not including the ~$5 billion they made running the liquor stores. So thinking of pot tax revenue in those terms isn't unrealistic, I think. Tobacco is also $6-7 billion in taxes. (The population ratio of Canada: Colorado is about 6.5:1, so it would seem it's largely a question of tax rates)

And I gotta say, last time I was in Colorado, I was in a town of 7000 people with at least three marijuana stores (albeit, a tourist town).
   796. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5769041)
If by "interesting" you mean entirely logical... OK, I guess.


No, it's not "logical" to throw in with political street violence.

I mean, my preference - if I were a German in 1932


You're the only one who keeps bringing up Germany in 1932. You're an American in 2018. Street violence in opposition to this government isn't remotely justified. Again, if you engage in it, prepare to be arrested. Your arrest will be completely justified, at the behest of a state that, while imperfect, would be entirely and unambiguously morally justified in arresting you. That fundamental question isn't really even close, again despite whatever "resistance" fantasies you have managed to come up with.

You and Sam really need a break from the boards and the 24/7 cycle. You're sounding more and more unhinged as you continue to worry and pontificate about "Nazi" hordes engulfing the country and as the 24/7 cycle of conflict continues to distort your vision. Take a breather.
   797. Davo Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5769043)
Nathan J. Robinson, for the far-left Current Affairs

Elizabeth Warren’s Native Ancestry Response Is a Complete Disaster
I like Elizabeth Warren a lot. She’s probably my second-favorite elected official. It’s only thanks to her that we have the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the best agency in the U.S. federal government. She is gutsy, smart, and she cares about the economic well-being of ordinary people.

Which is why I am so frustrated that Warren has so badly mishandled this native ancestry issue.

(...)I just want to first make clear why I do think this is a significant issue, even if Republicans care about it only for completely opportunistic reasons. It is wrong to claim an oppressed identity if you do not actually have that identity. Warren has reinforced incorrect conceptions of what it means to be Native American, saying at one point that she “knew her grandfather was ‘part’ Cherokee because ‘he had high cheekbones like all of the Indians.'” Warren has focused much of her defense on proving that she did not get hired or promoted at Harvard because of her claim to Native ancestry, calling many prominent law professors as witnesses. But her claim still allowed Harvard to pat itself on the back for diversity that it did not actually have, touting her as a woman of color. This makes it more difficult for actual Native women to succeed: if Harvard believes it has a Native American law professor, when it doesn’t, then it will not feel pressured to create an opportunity for an actual Native American law professor, even if Warren was hired solely because of her contributions to bankruptcy law scholarship.

There’s also something a little disturbing about the way Warren has defended herself by insisting that she didn’t benefit from affirmative action. A Warren spokesperson asked about the claim replied that “at every law school where Elizabeth was recruited to teach, it has been made absolutely clear she was hired based on merit; on her accomplishments and ability.” Warren herself said: “I am a hard-working teacher, I have won teaching awards, I’ve written books that have won acclaim.” I don’t doubt this is true. But I don’t like this framing, because it adopts the conservative line on affirmative action: some people are hired based on “merit” and other people are racial quota hires who do not have “merit.” Warren wants to prove that, unlike someone who was hired in part for their Native ancestry, she was hired solely on her Merit. To me, that insults anyone whose race factored into a hiring decision.

(...)In addition to everything else, this just shows horrible political instincts on Warren’s part. A few weeks before a mid-term election, she has handed the Republicans a news cycle, by doubling down on an indefensible claim and needlessly drawing attention to Donald Trump’s rhetoric. She has offended Native Americans and hurt the Democratic Party, and done so completely of her own volition. Looking at 2020 prospects, I have long been worried about Warren’s political skill—after all, she nearly lost an election to a Republican in Massachusetts. But this shows that she will fall right into Trump’s traps, and produce counterproductive own-goals.

Warren has never handled this issue well. It’s still not clear quite what she’s saying: she is a Cherokee, then? She isn’t? But I honestly don’t think someone can run for president and expect to win the Democratic nomination if they are unable to own up to mistakes, and gratuitously offend and ignore Native Americans. I have liked Elizabeth Warren for a long time, but this is a massive political liability. She is wrong on this, she doesn’t seem to know she is wrong, she refuses to apologize, and she continues to make it worse. I don’t know why, instead of suggesting that this is a baseless smear, she can’t just say clearly and definitively that she shouldn’t have spent years publicly touting her Native ancestry. This stupid issue would dominate any contest with Donald Trump. It would never end. It would prevent us from ever actually discussing any serious issues. It would be like the ####### email scandal all over again. And Warren has shown that she would handle it badly. At this point, I do not see how she can be a serious presidential contender.
   798. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5769044)
There's been no "seizure of power" by Donald Trump. Not an iota of one. To the extent informal power has been "seized" by anyone or any institution, it's been done as a means to keep him in check. (*) Power was "seized" more by Rod Rosenstein in his clearly contrary to the letter and proper understanding of the law appointment of Robert Mueller. Power was "seized" more by the adoption and attempted pre-election "insurance policy" undertaken by the senior faction at the FBI.


Hitler didn't "seize power" either.

He tried that in 1923 and it failed in an almost ridiculous, though still bloody, fashion.

The Nazis got the second most votes in the 1930 election - and far and away the largest spike in support. They got the most votes - by a pretty significant margin - and far and away the most seats in the July 1932 election. When the minority cabinet was pretty much forced into another election that fall, as they should have been under the parliamentary rules and then-Weimar constitution, the Nazis again got the largest share of the November 1932 election (if NSDAP support fell off by 5% or so).

By almost an reasonable reading of parliamentary government - Hitler should have been offered the Chancellorship... especially if the KPD was wholly persona non grata and the SPD was nearly so.
   799. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5769046)
And the wars and the Muslim-killin' didn't abate a bit even under Barack (To Sir, with Love) Obama. Nor did the quashing by the millions of the American dreams of "brown people."

Nobody but weirdos gives such a #### about the style of the chief executive in the face of the essential substantive continuity.


71.

But, in fact, this is not true either.

The administration prior to Obama did... you know.. invade Iraq. Which, you know, involved a lot of Muslim-killin'.

Even when you try to be flippant and coy, you come off as a pretty stupid troll.
   800. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5769049)
You're the only one who keeps bringing up Germany in 1932. You're an American in 2018. Street violence in opposition to this government isn't remotely justified. Again, if you engage in it, prepare to be arrested. Your arrest will be completely justified, at the behest of a state that, while imperfect, would be entirely and unambiguously morally justified in arresting you. That fundamental question isn't really even close, again despite whatever "resistance" fantasies you have managed to come up with.


I'd be happy to talk 1920s Italy or 1930s Spain or even 1917+ Russia - but I think there's a higher level of familiarity with 1930s Germany.
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