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Monday, May 29, 2017

OTP 29 May 2017: Should we double check with Rod Laver?

Political controversy in sport is global, as witness this episode from Down Under:

Margaret Court said last week she would not travel on Qantas because the boss of the airline, Alan Joyce, supported same-sex marriage.

A volley of controversy followed. It was even suggested that the Melbourne Park court named after the winner of 24 grand slam titles be renamed. It is amazing how stupid some of our community can be.

Should we double check with Rod Laver on his thoughts? What if he doesn’t agree on same-sex marriage either? We’re going to need a bigger spanner.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

 

BDC Posted: May 29, 2017 at 08:27 AM | 1834 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: australia, politics, tennis

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   901. dlf Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5466743)
Wait, 2007 is very recent? Huh.


In an on topic thread, there was brief mention of Al Nipper pitching in the 1986 World Series. To me that seems like it happened just yesterday, so yeah, 2007 might as well be this morning. Of course since I can't remember where I put my morning cup of coffee anymore, things from this morning might as well have happened ten years ago, so ...
   902. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:47 AM (#5466745)
According to a very recent Rasmussen poll.

That poll is ten years old, isn't it?


The age of the poll is pretty irrelevant without the actual question (and methodology and crosstabs)... It's not hard to write a poll question to deliver desired results as such... like this:

"According to a Presidential daily intel briefing one month before 9/11 stating "Bin Laden determined to strike US", questions have arisen regarding what President Bush knew in advance of the 9/11 attacks. Based on this information, do you believe President Bush knew about the attacks in advance."

Now... my response to such a poll would be "Please stop calling me with your stupid push polls".... but I imagine others might actually bother to answer the question one way or another.
   903. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5466746)
The age of the poll is pretty irrelevant without the actual question (and methodology and crosstabs)... It's not hard to write a poll question to deliver desired results as such... like this:


But somehow Republicans and independents were able to answer sanely. Hmmm.
   904. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:52 AM (#5466749)
In terms of foreign policy, his legacy will depend on what the 46th POTUS does to repair the damage that DJT has done. If DJT's successor makes an effort to restore the commitment US has to NATO, then there won't be lasting damage.


While he does not have the temperament to do it, I think Trump has a great opportunity to fix the imbalance in NATO and our dealings with Russia. For as bad as this last trip abroad was, the one good thing to come out of it was Europe, and particularly Germany, recognizing that they need to step up and take some responsibility for their own security. They have relied on the US for too long to their own detriment.

Having woken Europe up to this point, a deft pivot to reengage and work together to blunt Russia would be a huge success. Sadly, I have seen nothing that indicates Trump's desire or ability to do this.
   905. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5466750)
The age of the poll is pretty irrelevant ...


Well except it was labeled as "very recent", which is ... let's go with wrong. Yeah, wrong about covers it.

And of course a poll about 9/11 has very little relevance to anything likely to happen in 2020, unless the topic is "some people believe dumb things", and there is an ocean of evidence for that on all sides of the aisle. Since 9/11 alone we have the twin towers of dumb, birtherism and voting for Trump. We don't need a poll from ten years ago, about an event 16 years ago, to know there are plenty of people who believe dumb stuff out there, and they vote.
   906. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5466751)
The age of the poll is pretty irrelevant without the actual question (and methodology and crosstabs)... It's not hard to write a poll question to deliver desired results as such... like this:


That's all true. But it also buries the lede in that our resident troll is citing a ten year old poll as recent evidence that Democrats are still stupid, deranged, whatever.
   907. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5466753)
But somehow Republicans and independents were able to answer sanely. Hmmm.


Yes, yes... A pollster well-known - especially back in 2007 when Scotty was still at the helm - for being a GOP flakker delivers results making Democrats look bad. quelle surprise!

Fortunately - I've got a PPP poll right here (where you don't have to pay for the actual question and crosstabs!) that says only 3% of Democrats, 9% of Independents, and 14% of Republicans are surprised at those results.
   908. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:55 AM (#5466755)
They have relied on the US for too long to their own detriment.


I agree in large part, but I think there are dangers in an awake Europe. And yeah expecting Trump to turn against Russia is like expecting Yankee Clapper to say something bad about any member of the GOP - it ain't happening.
   909. Traderdave Posted: June 01, 2017 at 09:59 AM (#5466759)
A fair portion of Trump's base -- the Alex Jones crowd, et al -- believe in many whacky 9/11 conspiracies.
   910. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5466763)
Jonah Goldberg, no friend of the 'loony left' -- on the poll we're wasting our bytes on for reasons that ARE crazy... but regardless:

So, 1 in 3 Democrats believe that Bush was in on it somehow, and a majority of Democrats either believe that Bush knew about the attacks in advance or can't quite make up their minds.

There are only three ways to respond to this finding: It's absolutely true, in which case the paranoid style of American liberalism has reached a fevered crescendo. Or, option B, it's not true and we can stop paying attention to these kinds of polls. Or there's option C -- it's a little of both.

My vote is for C. But before we get there, we should work through the ramifications of A and B.

[...]

So then there's option B -- the poll is just wrong. This is quite plausible. Indeed, the poll is surely partly wrong. Many Democrats are probably merely saying that Bush is incompetent or that he failed to connect the dots or that they're just answering in a fit of pique. I'm game for option B. But if we're going to throw this poll away, I think liberals need to offer the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to data that are more convenient for them. For example, liberals have been dining out on polls showing that Fox News viewers, or Republicans generally, are more likely to believe that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11. Now, however flimsy, tendentious, equivocal or sparse you may think the evidence that Hussein had a hand in 9/11 may be, it's ironclad compared with the nugatory proof that Bush somehow permitted or condoned those attacks.


   911. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5466764)
A fair portion of Trump's base -- the Alex Jones crowd, et al -- believe in many whacky 9/11 conspiracies.


That's unfair to Trump's base... I mean, it's not like he's been interviewed by the guy... unless he has.
   912. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5466768)
We went over this earlier in the week, but some of the quotes are still funny ... Why Would Anyone Want to Work For the Trump Administration?

“Hell no!” said one Republican — one of the most common types of response BuzzFeed News got from operatives. “That would be career suicide.”…

“That’s like asking someone who just witnessed a horrific bungee jumping accident whether they would like to go next,” one Republican source responded in a text message.

“It would be only a few months on the job before tapping out the ‘I want to spend more time with family’ email,” another said…

“It’s attractive to someone who is willing to ruin their reputation or who isn’t worried about what the future of their career looks like,” said one GOP communications specialist with presidential campaign experience. “You have to be willing to manage the unmanageable.”

Said a second veteran of the Bush White House: “You’re going to come out of the administration with your reputation in tatters, your credibility utterly destroyed, and your job prospects close to nil unless you want a low-level CNN contributorship.”


And for the record ... Russia probe scares off potential appointees

According to the nonpartisan Partnership for Public Service, the White House has announced nominees for just 117 of the 559 most important Senate-confirmed positions.

That trails the records of Presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush, who had each nominated about twice as many people by this point in the first year of their first terms.
   913. Traderdave Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:17 AM (#5466773)
And Trump himself believes in some downright false 9/11 crap, like the thousands of people cheering in New Jersey.

   914. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5466776)
SBB's favored ruler believes Ted Cruz's father killed JFK and that vaccines aren't helpful - but that's normal, not deranged. Also, it's about 5% of Trump's asscrack conclusions.
   915. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5466779)
Without seeing the question, it's difficult to infer anything. Bush did get the "Bin Laden determined to attack the U.S." memo before 9/11, so he had some level of knowledge before the attack. The CIA did 9/11, Bin Laden is a patsy, is nutty territory.

And really, even if he knew everything, he probably couldn't have done much. Suppose you knew in August 2001 that at some point, some guys working for Al-Queda would hijack an aircraft to crash it into buildings. Unless you know who the guys are, or at least when and where they're planning to do it, you can't do anything but try to answer those questions.

Now, you can't really hijack planes effectively because the cabin is shut, and the passengers will fight hijackers to the death. But pre-9/11, they'd just let you hijack because you probably just wanted a few bucks and a flight to Cuba.

Edit - seems I owe Covfefe a Covfefe.
   916. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5466780)
And Trump himself believes in some downright false 9/11 crap, like the thousands of people cheering in New Jersey.


A subset responding to a poll ten years ago makes the entire Democratic party today "loony", fervently believing such nonsense just last year and defending it makes for a Little Trump approved President!
   917. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5466785)
And Trump himself believes in some downright false 9/11 crap, like the thousands of people cheering in New Jersey.


So what? Cheering the fall of the towers is perfectly legal.
   918. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:26 AM (#5466786)
So I see that California and Ohio (but not Michigan - go Michigan!) both allow spousal rape. Ugh. How common is this across the 50 states?

Edit: how common is it that rape of spouses is allowed, not how common is the occurrence of it.
That is not correct. Every state, including California and Ohio, outlaws marital rape. (In California, it's California Penal Code 262. In Ohio, it's ORC 2907.02(A)(2). ) A number of states have somewhat narrower definitions for marital rape than for non-marital rape (for good reasons). For example, Ohio's law (but not California's) requires force or threat of force for spouses; in Ohio it is not rape, for instance, to ply your spouse with copious amounts of alcohol and then have sex with them, the way it would be if you did it with a stranger.
   919. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5466789)
Tony Podesta absconded with the facts.

I think it was Jacob Podesta. No relation, but so what? Close enough! Am I right, or am I right!
Why do you refuse to say whether Jacob Podesta would be ineligible to serve in government if he killed Donald Trump? No answer. Crickets. LOL. Concession accepted.
   920. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:29 AM (#5466791)
Well except it was labeled as "very recent"


It is very recent. And directly related to the current Russia lunacy.
   921. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:30 AM (#5466792)
Why do you refuse to say whether Jacob Podesta would be ineligible to serve in government if he killed Donald Trump?


He would be.

As to Tony Podesta, we know quite well why people refuse to say whether he'd be ineligible for various roles.
   922. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5466794)
A subset responding to a poll ten years ago makes the entire Democratic party today "loony"


No, the Russia! stuff makes wide swaths of Democrats look "loony." As do things like Kathy Griffin's severed Trump head -- which not only makes wide swaths of Democrats look loony but is itself an iconic image of Decline.

The 9/11 lunacy just demonstrates a recurring pattern of lunacy. WSoD were deranged about the last Republican president, and they're even more deranged about the current one.
   923. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5466797)
It is very recent


For me personally, 10 years ago is very recent. In fact, 25 years ago is recent; my kids were young, I was still almost young myself.

It's a very human sort of definition.

   924. The Good Face Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5466798)
This is an article of faith on the left and among certain more libertarian not-so-lefties. But Clinton's biggest baggage wasn't Benghazi or the travel office scandal or Vince Foster or whatever else motivates people who get their news from Breitbart and the Daily Mail. Those were not the only people who voted against her. No, her biggest problem was that she's an avid supporter of the status quo, and Trump's appeal was largely a function of his opposition to the wonkeuacrats like Clinton that dominate our society.

It's sad to live in a society that views advanced technical knowledge and a willingness to work assiduously to improve our most powerful institutions as political negatives, but our attitudes towards the best and the brightest clearly have been dominated by cynicism for the last fifty years. (Of course Tim Geithner, after 30 years of devoted public service, is getting massive paychecks these days, so there's that.) Trump's kind of appeal isn't changing based on covfefe or AHCA. The problem faced by Democrats is much bigger than that, and it will take much longer to unwind. This is Reagan-in-1964 kind of stuff.


This guy gets it.
   925. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5466799)
HRC was running to "pick up the mantle" from a popular two term incumbent who had endorsed her. Of course she couldn't be the candidate of change. The next Democratic candidate will be running to replace the current President (assuming he runs) and is bby definition a change candidate. In 2020 Trump can't be a change candidate, he can't exactly attack the guy who has been in office since 2017.


The trap door with plausible/reasonable theories is that they abound on either side. And humans have a tendency to give more weight to the plausible theories THEY believe in rather than those the OTHER SIDE offers up.

One thing is clear in the current state of the US: enough people on each side will vote for whoever ends up with an R or a D next to their name that each side will have a good chance to win. I don't care if you run Trump or Alec Baldwin or Carrot Top. The principle will likely hold. Remember what was predicted for the Republicans with Trump: a massive loss, and bloodshed up and down the party. But if Trump didn't lose big then nobody will. That's the lesson to be learned.
   926. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5466803)
Just last night my younger son was talking up Tulsi Gabbard as a politician he really likes (I was surprised he knew a fair amount about a politician I was not really aware of, other than vaguely, but he pays attention to politics and world affairs, unlike his brother). Perhaps in 2024 or 2028 for her though, 2020 is a bit early IMO.
Gabbard is (a) hot, and (b) a nut. She was a Bernie supporter, but even Bernie didn't go around hobnobbing with Assad and parroting Russian propaganda about the Syrian government being the real victims. She was actually pretty anti-gay until she decided to become more active in national politics. And she has flirted with Trump. (Not literally. Ew.)
   927. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5466804)
The 9/11 lunacy just demonstrates a recurring pattern of lunacy.

And what about Trump's position on JFK's assassination and vaccines?


No, her biggest problem was that she's an avid supporter of the status quo a woman
   928. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5466807)
Yeah - except that Clinton got a larger share of the vote than Trump, and those same voters duly filled the House and Senate with wonkeuacrats at the same time they elected Trump.

And Trump's appeal is declining, as far as anyone can measure. If his approval keeps declining at the rate it has over the first four months of his presidency, it'll be -70% come the next presidential election.
   929. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5466808)
On the other hand, I don't see any signs that Trump will become more competent and less scandal plagued as time goes on. Are there any signs he is learning, getting better at this? I have not seen any.
No, but there are going to be very very diminishing returns on new scandals and failures on Trump's part if it keeps up like this over the next four years.
   930. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5466809)
While he does not have the temperament to do it, I think Trump has a great opportunity to fix the imbalance in NATO and our dealings with Russia. For as bad as this last trip abroad was, the one good thing to come out of it was Europe, and particularly Germany, recognizing that they need to step up and take some responsibility for their own security. They have relied on the US for too long to their own detriment.

Having woken Europe up to this point, a deft pivot to reengage and work together to blunt Russia would be a huge success. Sadly, I have seen nothing that indicates Trump's desire or ability to do this.


The problem is -- setting aside the NATO 2% rule -- according to 2017 defense budgets, Russia's defense expenditures are in the 65 billion dollar range. The UK is at 56. France is at 46 billion. Germany at 36. Italy at 21. So you could pair any two European NATO members -- and you're already well past Russia. Take three - and you're already doubling Russia's defense budget. Two of those countries - France and the UK - are nuclear powers.

The imbalance in NATO spending is wholly, entirely of our own making -- we're not "proppping up NATO" -- we're spending a gawd jeebus are you ####### kidding me amount on defense.

If that 'imbalance' is a problem - the US alone has the capability to fix it by cutting it's own defense spending. Cut it in half and we still more than double up any potential rival and still come damn close to matching everyone else in the top 10.

I'm - frankly - not entirely sure Trump even understands what he means he's delivering the Bannon-esque demands (I highly suspect he thinks there is some big pile of NATO money that everybody puts their dollars into).

Especially since the collapse of the USSR and the Warsaw pact - I think even the 2% rule is pretty archaic, but regardless - it just flies in the face of reality to insist that the problem is that European NATO members aren't 'spending enough'.

The problem is that we're spending too much... It's warbling around the margins to complain that other countries aren't pissing away more dollars like we are.
   931. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5466811)
According to a recent poll, 100% of people don't believe 100% of Sugar Buns claims when he doesn't include a link.
110% don't when he does include a link.
   932. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5466813)
And what about Trump's position on JFK's assassination and vaccines?


Nutty.

Both sides suck. Difference is that leftists have a bizarre pretension to higher intelligence and rationality, when they're in fact loons.
   933. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5466814)
110% don't when he does include a link.


Me neither, so make that 111%
   934. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5466816)
complain that other countries aren't pissing away more dollars like we are.


It improves your relative economic standing when others shoot themselves in their feets.
   935. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5466817)
It should always be kept in mind that the group most vociferously pushing Russia trutherism is the one wherein (*) 35% believe George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, 26% are not sure, and a mere 39% believe he didn't. Sixty-one percent of Democrats either believe W knew in advance, or are not sure.(**)


The thing with conspiracy theories is that they're all about one thing and if you talk to these nuts it soon hits you in the face.

"George Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."
"Iraq was a war for oil."
"Donald Trump colluded with Russia to get elected."

And at some point after hearing these people talk you realize, "Oh. You just hate this country."
   936. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5466819)
One thing is clear in the current state of the US: enough people on each side will vote for whoever ends up with an R or a D next to their name that each side will have a good chance to win


Hey look, I agree with Ray. At this point, you have to give both the (R) and the (D) at least a 40% shot at the presidency in 2020.
   937. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:45 AM (#5466820)
The age of the poll is pretty irrelevant without the actual question (and methodology and crosstabs)... It's not hard to write a poll question to deliver desired results as such... like this:
Right, which is what PPP continually does to put out poll porn for liberals. It's a two-part methodology: (1) ask questions for which the mainstream answer makes your side look good and the other side look bad, which means your side will give the mainstream answer and the other side will give the fringe answer; and (b) load the questions to ensure that the other side will give the fringe answer.

Liberals have been falling for that from PPP for years. But conservatives are obviously no less biased than liberals, so they'll do the same thing if the valence of the questions is reversed.
   938. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5466822)
No, but there are going to be very very diminishing returns on new scandals and failures on Trump's part if it keeps up like this over the next four years.


I disagree. I mean yes, of course there is a diminishing returns on scandals and failures, but ... don't forget all of this is how Trump is viewed while the US economy is doing really well. The world as a whole is doing really well. There are not many crises.

Taken alone the impact of Trump's missteps will decline in negative impact, but it all plays into the narrative of BS artist who can't find his arse even with a native guide. Now thrown in a Katrina or an economic downturn and suddenly the impact of those same missteps becomes much bigger.

Sure, maybe Trump is charmed and nothing bad will happen over his whole first four years except his own screw-ups, but I wouldn't bet that way. And when something happens the fact that he hasn't learned, hasn't gotten better at being President will really hurt him I suspect.
   939. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:49 AM (#5466823)
And at some point after hearing these people talk you realize, "Oh. You just hate this country."


Yeah, the people who want to make America better and want to let All Americans share in America's greatness are the ones who hate it. Good Job. You get a covfefe.
   940. dlf Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5466824)
And at some point after hearing these people talk you realize, "Oh. You just hate this country."


Do you believe that the same is true for those who believe that Obama was born in Kenya, the Clintons murdered Vince Foster, or Podesta is the ringleader for a pedophilia providing pizza shop?
   941. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5466826)
The imbalance in NATO spending is wholly, entirely of our own making -- we're not "proppping up NATO" -- we're spending a gawd jeebus are you ####### kidding me amount on defense.


The imbalance is not just in spending, but in leadership and responsibility. Too often, Europe takes a back seat while letting the US play cop. They need to step up to, and be a bigger part of reigning in threats.

The downside of this is that Europe will start to go its own way on some things. But I am not sure that is a completely bad thing.
   942. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5466827)
One thing is clear in the current state of the US: enough people on each side will vote for whoever ends up with an R or a D next to their name that each side will have a good chance to win. I don't care if you run Trump or Alec Baldwin or Carrot Top. The principle will likely hold. Remember what was predicted for the Republicans with Trump: a massive loss, and bloodshed up and down the party. But if Trump didn't lose big then nobody will. That's the lesson to be learned.


I agree entirely, to be honest.

...and I'm quite on record stating if the Democrats run a Trump Wearing Blue, they can count me out wholly, totally and completely. There won't be any "well, let's make the best of it" or "at least we'll get a SCOTUS seat out of it" or whatever else it that lets the Clappers of the world sleep at night.

My withdrawal wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, of course -- but if "my side" decides that it's just a different shade of asinine dumbassery that's necessary, I'd much rather stand with people I disagree with on virtually every issue under the sun than I would with deplorables (of a different sort) with their heads up their reality TV asses.

It would be a sad state of affairs where there would be legitimate need for a "party" or collection of individuals who share no more common ideology than "just don't be crazy, stupid, ridiculous, or incompetent"... but if that's where it's all heading, that's where I would end up.
   943. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5466829)
Do you believe that the same is true for those who believe that Obama was born in Kenya, the Clintons murdered Vince Foster, or Podesta is the ringleader for a pedophilia providing pizza shop?


Yes.
   944. TDF, trained monkey Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5466830)
The thing with conspiracy theories is that they're all about one thing and if you talk to these nuts it soon hits you in the face.

"George Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."
"Iraq was a war for oil."
"Donald Trump colluded with Russia to get elected."
"Obama is a Muslim."
"Obama is a Kenyan."
"Global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese."
"Millions of people committed vote fraud."
   945. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 10:58 AM (#5466831)
Do you believe that the same is true for those who believe that Obama was born in Kenya, the Clintons murdered Vince Foster, or Podesta is the ringleader for a pedophilia providing pizza shop?
Which Podesta?
   946. PepTech Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5466834)
Podesta's a witch?!?! BURN him!!!
   947. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:02 AM (#5466836)
Do you believe that the same is true for those who believe that Obama was born in Kenya, the Clintons murdered Vince Foster, or Podesta is the ringleader for a pedophilia providing pizza shop?


Those things aren't floating around mainstream outlets with pretensions of seriousness and objectivity, with a large educated readership, like the Russia! nonsense is.

That's the difference.
   948. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:02 AM (#5466837)
The thing with conspiracy theories is that they're all about one thing and if you talk to these nuts it soon hits you in the face.

"George Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."
"Iraq was a war for oil."
"Donald Trump colluded with Russia to get elected."


"Obama is a Muslim."
"Obama is a Kenyan."
"Global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese."
"Millions of people committed vote fraud."


Of course, no Democrat got elected president advocating any of the conspiracies on the left.
   949. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5466841)
Those things aren't floating around mainstream outlets with pretensions of seriousness and objectivity, with a large educated readership, like the Russia! nonsense is.


As long as you ignore the advocacy of the current president.

That's the difference.


Yes. Trump got elected on it.
   950. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5466842)
The imbalance is not just in spending, but in leadership and responsibility. Too often, Europe takes a back seat while letting the US play cop. They need to step up to, and be a bigger part of reigning in threats.


OK - that's fair enough... but it's also a two-way street (i.e., if France wants to bomb the bejesus out of Syria - we would also need to accept that it wouldn't our place to tell them not to do so under such a scenario).

That said -- you're exactly right...

The downside of this is that Europe will start to go its own way on some things. But I am not sure that is a completely bad thing.


...and it's already happening.

I remain skeptical that China can complete its pivot towards a more or less free market economy while retaining a semblance of its current autocracy -- it's got cultural and wealth disparity problems of its own, to say nothing of corruption, etc.

However, I do think on the grand geopolitical stage -- the biggest winner, beyond any real debate that I can think of -- is China.

The ascendancy of China may well have been inevitable - it's certainly got people and resources - but the Trump era has absolutely hastened and helped it.

My issue with an ascendant China isn't braindead nationalism or even western culture uber alles -- it's that as a human being, I'd prefer the nation leading the global stage economically and militarily to also be the globe's best (or at least, "least bad") in regards to human rights and individual liberties. China just isn't that right now... Maybe a future China could be -- but it's a shame that the dystopian Trumpism seems damned to determined to help them get there wholly through our own folly and backsliding.
   951. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5466843)
Yeah, the people who want to make America better and want to let All Americans share in America's greatness are the ones who hate it.


Submission to Islam and Islamist terror doesn't "make America better." Being loony and irrational about things like Russia and 9/11 doesn't "make America better." Forcing people to create speech on pain of bankruptcy doesn't "make America better."

Those things make America far worse. And this isn't an exhaustive list by any means.
   952. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5466844)
Those things aren't floating around mainstream outlets with pretensions of seriousness and objectivity, with a large educated readership, like the Russia! nonsense is.


If you're going to lecture "Democrats" about being nicer to their fellow citizens and stop dumb-shaming them, it seems the least you could do would be to stop calling the listeners of talk radio, watchers of Fox News, and readers of Breitbart uneducted, non-serious, stupid, etc by proxy.
   953. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5466846)
Do you believe that the same is true for those who believe that Obama was born in Kenya

RAY: Yes.

Why would you throw so much support behind a dude who hates the country?
   954. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5466847)
Those things aren't floating around mainstream outlets with pretensions of seriousness and objectivity, with a large educated readership, like the Russia! nonsense is.
A rational person would conclude from this that those things aren't serious and objective, as Russia is. A troll or insane person, on the other hand, would keep calling Russia "nonsense," even when the evidence keeps piling up in favor of it.
   955. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5466848)
Indeed, people are nuts. Push any of us, and we'll have some belief or another that's nuts. Some don't even need to be pushed into saying Chuck Berry's music is no good. ;)
   956. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5466849)
Those things aren't floating around mainstream outlets with pretensions of seriousness and objectivity, with a large educated readership, like the Russia! nonsense is.

That's the difference.


This sounds an awful lot like you endorsing Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" talk. We can't hold it against those rubes on the right, because they're uneducated buffoons; but we should expect more of liberals. Is that what you're going with here?
   957. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5466851)
Too often, Europe takes a back seat while letting the US play cop.


This is somewhat true, but I think it's overperceived because you're getting media that focusses on American interests and American solutions (and hell, American actions in larger plots). France mucks about in Africa all the time, but you almost never heard about it in American news, because Americans don't care.
   958. PepTech Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5466852)
"Mexico will pay for the wall"
"We will pull out of 'obsolete' NATO"
"China will be declared a currency manipulator"
"'Total and complete' ban on Muslims entering the country"
"Day one, repeal and replace Obamacare"
"100 days, ISIS will be destroyed"
"If I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor" to "LOCK HER UP"

**Yeah, yeah, he delivered on Gorsuch. And the TPP!
   959. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5466853)
   960. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5466856)
A troll or insane person, on the other hand, would keep calling Russia "nonsense," even when the evidence keeps piling up in favor of it.


You can't even define "it," much less cite to any actual "evidence piling up."

A few people botching some paperwork hardly rises to the level of an "it."

And we know that there are no limitations on someone working on campaigns or in government, even if they'd taken money from Putin to try to get US policy on Russia changed during campaign season. So that can't be an "it," either.

This sounds an awful lot like you endorsing Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" talk. We can't hold it against those rubes on the right, because they're uneducated buffoons; but we should expect more of liberals. Is that what you're going with here?


Maybe, kind of. It's embarrassing to watch people with such pretensions of seriousness and rationality, and entitlement to rule, become so delusional and addicted to clickbait. It's very much a marker of Decline.
   961. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5466857)
"Mexico will pay for the wall"
"We will pull out of 'obsolete' NATO"
"China will be declared a currency manipulator"
"'Total and complete' ban on Muslims entering the country"
"Day one, repeal and replace Obamacare"
"100 days, ISIS will be destroyed"
"If I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor" to "LOCK HER UP"


"We will move our embassy in Israel to Jerusalem!"


President Trump signed Thursday the waiver to keep the U.S. embassy in Israel in Tel Aviv, despite his campaign promise to move the mission to Jerusalem.

The six-month waiver, which has been signed by every presidential administration since 1998, allows the president to override the Jerusalem Embassy Act, a law Congress passed in 1995 that requires the mission be moved to the holy city, which Israel regards as its undivided capital. The international community, however, considers the eastern half of the city to be disputed territory—one the Palestinians claim as their future capital.

Although the move is a departure from Trump’s campaign promise to move the embassy (he said during a news conference with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in February that he would “love to see that happen”), the White House said in a statement that “no one should consider this step to be in any way a retreat from the President’s strong support for Israel and for the United States-Israel alliance,” adding, “the question is not if that move happens, but only when.”
   962. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5466859)
This is somewhat true, but I think it's overperceived because you're getting media that focusses on American interests and American solutions (and hell, American actions in larger plots). France mucks about in Africa all the time, but you almost never heard about it in American news, because Americans don't care.


And that is somewhat true (though I am trying to get more European based news). I do admit that my biggest issue is my perception that Germany needs to do more. Also probably over perceived.
   963. manchestermets Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5466860)
That is not correct. Every state, including California and Ohio, outlaws marital rape. (In California, it's California Penal Code 262. In Ohio, it's ORC 2907.02(A)(2). )


Thanks for the Clarification, especially the link to the California code.

A number of states have somewhat narrower definitions for marital rape than for non-marital rape (for good reasons).


What good reasons?

For example, Ohio's law (but not California's) requires force or threat of force for spouses; in Ohio it is not rape, for instance, to ply your spouse with copious amounts of alcohol and then have sex with them, the way it would be if you did it with a stranger.


Well, (a) in my opinion it should be and (b) according to my non-lawyerly reading the same is true if one plys one's spouse with something illegal, which, well, no. I also note that the under 13 clause doesn't apply to one's spouse. Which I wouldn't have thought a problem before I read this NYT article about forced child marriage in the US which I found astonishing. The idea that an adult can make rape not rape by marrying a 12 year old seems very wrong to me.
   964. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5466865)
The idea that an adult can make rape not rape by marrying a 12 year old seems very wrong to me.

Way to be silent the real problem here, the evolution of the word "marriage" to include same-sex couples. Why do you hate America?
   965. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5466866)
So which of these were often repeated by your average D or R voters, such as those who post here?

1 "George Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."
2 "Iraq was a war for oil."
3 "Donald Trump colluded with Russia to get elected."
4 "Obama is a Muslim."
5 "Obama is a Kenyan."
6 "Global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese."
7 "Millions of people committed vote fraud."


D voters here have given credence to 2 and 3.

NeverTrumper libertarians here have given credence to 3.

R voters here and some libertarians have given credence to 7.

   966. manchestermets Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5466867)
Why do you hate America?


I'm not American. Why shouldn't I?
   967. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5466868)
It's embarrassing to watch people with such pretensions of seriousness and rationality, and entitlement to rule, become so delusional and addicted to clickbait.


Nah, I think most people would say it's fun to watch you continually flak for Trump... but you have to remember that a recent BBTF poll found that 119% of Democrats, 112% of independents, and 107% of Republicans never found you all that serious or rational to begin with.

I know that 102% of respondents also think you're just a 4chan post that gained some semblance of sentience, but I'm thinking most of them were just answering with a bit of hyperbole.
   968. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5466869)
Is the "Covfefe" poster Zonk?
   969. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5466870)
I think most people would say it's fun to watch you continually flak for Trump.


You only think it's "flak" because you're afflicted with TDS. Perspective alters vision.
   970. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5466873)
1 "George Bush knew about 9/11 in advance."
2 "Iraq was a war for oil."
3 "Donald Trump colluded with Russia to get elected."
4 "Obama is a Muslim."
5 "Obama is a Kenyan."
6 "Global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese."
7 "Millions of people committed vote fraud."


1. LOL.
2. Oil was a factor, but not the prime driver.
3. LOL.
4. He isn't a Muslim, to be sure -- but his experiences made him embrace Islam to an unhelpful degree. It's not "progressive" to embrace any religion, including Islam. Progress is made when religion fades as a shaper of views and cultures and polities. The nation is regressing there. It's a thread in The Decline.
5. LOL.
6. LOL.
7. LOL.
   971. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5466874)
Why do you hate America?

I'm not American. Why shouldn't I?


Providing belly laughs for the world at large buys America nothing?
   972. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5466875)
I'm not American. Why shouldn't I?

The National Parks are pretty cool. Until they start drilling, I guess.


Progress is made when religion fades as a shaper of views and cultures and polities.

How do you even leave your apartment during December?
   973. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM (#5466878)
Germans are very skeptical of military adventurism - in that particularly newsworthy arena, they don't do much. I have a hard time faulting them for that.
   974. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:38 AM (#5466879)
R voters here and some libertarians have given credence to 7.


Seeing as how Trump was elected president, R voters certainly gave credence to 5.
   975. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:38 AM (#5466880)
You can't even define "it," much less cite to any actual "evidence piling up."
You're projecting again. Just like your hero not realizing that healthcare could be so complicated.
   976. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5466882)
You're projecting again.


No, I'm saying you can't even define "it." If you could, you would have already -- as opposed to regurgitating your usual material.

The derangement is so deep that you've adopted the Andy standard on whim and fancy. He doesn't know "it" when he sees it, and neither do you.

   977. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5466883)
Germans are very skeptical of military adventurism - in that particularly newsworthy arena, they don't do much. I have a hard time faulting them for that.


But they also seem skeptical of getting involved in non-military ways. They seem happy to strike deals with anyone while having the US do the pushing.
   978. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5466885)
Seeing as how Trump was elected president, R voters certainly gave credence to 5.


Does not follow.
   979. Hot Wheeling American Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5466886)
4. He isn't a Muslim, to be sure -- but his experiences made him embrace Islam to an unhelpful degree. It's not "progressive" to embrace any religion, including Islam. Progress is made when religion fades as a shaper of views and cultures and polities. The nation is regressing there. It's a thread in The Decline.


Any serious baseball message board poster would have stopped at 'He isn't a Muslim'.
   980. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:44 AM (#5466887)
And that is somewhat true (though I am trying to get more European based news). I do admit that my biggest issue is my perception that Germany needs to do more. Also probably over perceived.


I can't help but wonder if non-German Europeans are generally of this same mindset -- I suppose the generation that remembers WWI and WWII is virtually gone by this point, but I very much recall a lot of European nervousness over even the post-USSR reunification of Germany (indeed, wasn't Thatcher none-too concerned publicly?).

I'm by no means sharing in that alleged fear... just saying that European history goes back a long way, of course, I suspect that there's still a relatively low ceiling towards how 'powerful' other European nations would prefer to see Germany.

I suppose a lot has changed since the 19th and 20th centuries -- technology, the end of the imperialist era, etc... so Germany is no longer the big - but young and upstart - power hemmed in by geopolitical foes... but if push comes to shove, I'm not entirely sure France and the UK would like to see a German military budget no longer slotting in behind their own.

Entirely possible - maybe even probable - that's a dated mindset...
   981. SteveF Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:44 AM (#5466888)
How do you even leave your apartment during December?

Unless you think consumerism is a religion, likely the same way he leaves it in July -- in a T-shirt emblazoned with the face of John Locke.
   982. PepTech Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:47 AM (#5466889)
He isn't a Muslim, to be sure -- but his experiences made him embrace Islam to an unhelpful degree.
What is the basis for your use of "embrace" and "unhelpful"? I'm not using scare quotes, here - those specific words were clearly intended to impart meaning. How did Obama "embrace", and what specifically do you mean by "unhelpful"?
   983. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5466890)
By the way I think it awesome that somehow the loons on the left and the loons on the right are being equated, I mean sure there are loons on both sides, but one of those loons on the right is the President of the US and leader of the GOP. There is nothing even close to that on the left.

So yeah there are loons on both sides. That is bad. But let's not pretend there is an equivalence that matters, because most of the loons on the left are minimized (and for good reason), while the loons on the right on in the Oval office making major decisions. Everyone here except for Little Trump, Ray, and TGF should think that is a bit of an issue.
   984. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5466891)
Does not follow.


Sure it does. Trump was one of the leading voices in birther movement. Not only did it not discredit him among the GOP, they elected him president.
   985. BrianBrianson Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5466892)
It's a bit tougher to assess who's putting in what shares in non-military whatnot. How much of the Iran Nuclear deal came from Germany? I couldn't say.
   986. Lassus Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5466893)
Unless you think consumerism is a religion

I think people barely realize how much Jesus is absolutely everywhere.
   987. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5466894)
Progress is made when religion fades as a shaper of views and cultures and polities. The nation is regressing there. It's a thread in The Decline.


This is not even vaguely coherent. Well done.

Because of course the alleged decline dates from 1979, and what is one of the biggest demographic shifts since then? Why the huge increase in secularism since then. So pretending Religion is a huge problem in causing the decline, which began in 1979 is typically dumb for Little Trump.
   988. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5466895)
Seeing as how Trump was elected president, R voters certainly gave credence to 5.


Does not follow.


Pretty sure he's referring to the clearly evident fact that Trump's multiyear toe-dipping into the political arena was almost entirely driven by birtherism. I mean, is this really debatable? His contributions to the political body politic from ~2010 to 2015 were almost entirely predicated on that single "issue".

Call it crass opportunism (or is it just 'virtue signaling'?) if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that a decidedly immoral (in standard 'Christian' terms) rich New Yorker had a relatively easy time being embraced in pretty decent numbers by flyover country righties who generally don't like rich, sleazy New Yorkers.
   989. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5466896)
There is nothing even close to that on the left.


??

Hillary Clinton is one.
   990. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5466897)
No, I'm saying you can't even define "it."
No, you're saying that you can't even define it. Please try to keep up.
   991. JL72 Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5466898)
Pretty sure he's referring to the clearly evident fact that Trump's multiyear toe-dipping into the political arena was almost entirely driven by birtherism. I mean, is this really debatable? His contributions to the political body politic from ~2010 to 2015 were almost entirely predicated on that single "issue".


Got it in one. Normally would be surprised others did not, but about what I expected.
   992. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5466899)
No, you're saying that you can't even define it.


I know you are, but what am I?

I can define it quite well, which is why I know it's not there (*) -- and indeed the Tony Podesta discussion is part of the defining process. As were the various FEC opinions I alluded to.

Team TDS are the ones that can't, because they're just hoping to throw whim and fancy around and hope it sticks.

(*) Well, that, and the numerous on-the-record sources who have said there's no evidence of collusion.
   993. Due to the leadership of Zonk... Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5466903)
No, I'm saying you can't even define "it."
No, you're saying that you can't even define it. Please try to keep up.


...Coulda sworn there was a poster who just yesterday struggled mightily with the pronoun "it", too.

Wonder if it was the same person?

   994. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5466904)
Well except it was labeled as "very recent", which is ... let's go with wrong.


LCD Soundsystem's new* "Sound of Silver" is amazeballs!

*the only lie in this statement is the timing joke
   995. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: June 01, 2017 at 11:59 AM (#5466905)
Erick Son of Erick reports Reince Priebus' days are numbered


Nonetheless, two White House sources tell me Reince Priebus’s departure is imminent. The President would like to land Reince somewhere still in government, but regardless has decided to move on. I was not told who the replacement is or even that the President has settled on a replacement. It will not be, despite some rumors, Steve Bannon. One name circulating in the media is lobbyist David Urban, who once served as Chief of Staff to Arlen Specter. Choosing Urban would be bringing the swamp into the White House instead of draining it.


The Resurgent
   996. . Posted: June 01, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5466907)
Coulda sworn there was a poster who just yesterday struggled mightily with the pronoun "it", too.


I know -- but, again, this is your brain on TDS.
   997. PepTech Posted: June 01, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5466908)
Is the "Covfefe" poster Zonk?
That is the conventional wisdom, yes :)
   998. Hot Wheeling American Posted: June 01, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5466909)
I think people barely realize how much Jesus is absolutely everywhere.


More from Erick:
Erick Erickson‏ @EWErickson

I worship Jesus, not Mother Earth. He calls us all to be good stewards of the planet, but doesn't mean I have to care about global warming.

   999. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 01, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5466912)
Lol at any trump voter still talking about the swamp with regret. He got ya.
   1000. TDF, trained monkey Posted: June 01, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5466913)
But let's not pretend there is an equivalence that matters, because most of the loons on the left are minimized (and for good reason), while the loons on the right on in the Oval office making major decisions.
The loons on the right also are on the #1 rated cable news network, and by a wide margin the #1 national radio program.

Let me know when the loons of the left are the actual voice of that political arm.
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