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Saturday, December 21, 2019

Padres’ Ian Kinsler retires as player, remains with club

As new Padres manager Jayce Tingler has traveled around the country to meet with players and gotten together with others in San Diego, he has heard one assessment more than any other.

Player after player has volunteered what an effect Ian Kinsler had on them.

And so it makes sense that the team will continue to employ Kinsler, though not as a player.

What had been considered a virtual certainty for some time became official Friday — that Kinsler plans to retire.

 

QLE Posted: December 21, 2019 at 12:45 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ian kinsler, retirement

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   1. Walt Davis Posted: December 21, 2019 at 04:08 PM (#5910327)
One of the quietest HoVG/borderline HoF careers ever. A final total of 57 WAR, 30 WAA. A lot of that is defense but still 45 oWAR. A reasonable 4 AS appearances, won 3 GG near the end of his career but never made an MVP top 10. Traded for Prince Fielder remains one of the great rip-off trades of all-time (granted, Fielder's injury made it worse). Kinlser put up 22 WAR over the next 5 years.

He has slightly more WAR and WAA than Kent, a higher WAR7 as well which is a bit surprising. Kent was a late-bloomer and put up 42 WAR from 29-37; Kinsler was also a late-bloomer but not that late and from 25-34 put up 51 WAR. Kent of course has a MVP, the 2B HR record and a lot of RBIs. Utley is another obvious comp as a late-blooming contemporary and Utley was better. Pedroia is another obvious contemporary comp and they are quite close -- Kinsler just ahead on JAWS but Pedroia with much more MVP love will surely get more votes. PEDS aside, Cano is this generation's HoF 2B so as his generation's 3rd-4th best 2B and with no narrative, Kinsler has no shot at the HoF.

If b-r is correct, the Pads owed him $3.75 for 2020 already so I assume this is more a "settlement" than a "retirement" per se.
   2. cookiedabookie Posted: December 21, 2019 at 06:19 PM (#5910346)
Man, I don't think I could walk away with 1,999 hits. Great career, and he's basically the gatekeeper at second base for the Hall of Fame - better than him, you should be in, worse than him, no.
   3. bbmck Posted: December 21, 2019 at 06:31 PM (#5910348)
Kinsler's ballot (current Thibs Tracker):

9th Manny Ramirez (19/44)
8th Andruw Jones (9/44)
8th Scott Rolen (17/44)
8th Omar Vizquel (23/44)
7th Todd Helton (15/44)

7th Andy Pettitte (7/44)
6th Bobby Abreu (3/44)
5th Mark Buehrle
4th Alex Rodriguez
2nd Bartolo Colon

2nd Joe Mauer
2nd Chase Utley
2nd David Wright
1st Curtis Granderson
1st Felix Hernandez

1st Ian Kinsler
1st Dustin Pedroia
1st CC Sabathia
1st Ichiro Suzuki
1st Troy Tulowitski
1st Ben Zobrist

Some might play again, but do you vote for Kinsler on a ballot something like this? I wouldn't.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: December 21, 2019 at 07:12 PM (#5910349)
I wouldn't vote for him if he were the only candidate.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: December 21, 2019 at 07:23 PM (#5910351)
he's basically the gatekeeper at second base for the Hall of Fame - better than him, you should be in, worse than him, no.


What's the all gatekeeper team?
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 21, 2019 at 07:36 PM (#5910352)
Hmmm...just a few ideas off the top of my head, without actually looking up WAR...

C- Munson
1B- Olerud, W. Clark
3B- Brando, Nettles
SS- Campaneris
OF- Evans, Abreu
SP- Cone, John, Kaat
RP- should be whoever is second to Rivera
   7. bbmck Posted: December 21, 2019 at 09:01 PM (#5910363)
Gatekeeper by HoM standards is much simpler, a viable candidate can't disappear in a single election cycle for a decade or longer, vote points in 2019 election:

C: Ernie Lombardi 15, Gene Tenace 0, Jason Kendall 0, Darrell Porter 0, Jim Sundberg 0 with Yadier Molina and Russell Martin not eligible last year
1B: Fred McGriff 24, John Olerud 13, Norm Cash 0, Orlando Cepeda 0, Tony Perez 0 with Jason Giambi and Mark Teixeira not eligible last year
2B: Johnny Evers 20, Tony Lazzeri 0, Buddy Myer 0, Del Pratt 0, Larry Doyle 0 with Ian Kinsler, Dustin Pedroia and Ben Zobrist not eligible last year
3B: Bob Elliott 18, Robin Ventura 6, Ron Cey 0, Toby Harrah 0 with David Wright not eligible last year

SS: Nomar Garciaparra 14, Dave Bancroft 9, Luis Aparicio 7, Jim Fregosi 0, Miguel Tejada 0, Omar Vizquel 0 with Jimmy Rollins and Troy Tulowitzki not eligible last year
CF: Willie Davis 0, Johnny Damon 0, Chet Lemon 0, Vada Pinson 0, Cesar Cedeno 0, Kirby Puckett 0, Fred Lynn 0 with Torii Hunter and Curtis Granderson not eligible last year
LF: Luis Gonzalez 8, Jose Cruz 0, Jim Rice 0, Roy White 0, Heinie Manush 0, Lou Brock 0 with Ryan Braun and Matt Holliday not eligible last year
RF: Harry Hooper 11, Kiki Cuyler 10, Brian Giles 7, Jack Clark 0, Sam Rice 0, Rusty Staub 0 with Bobby Abreu not eligible last year

Missed anyone who doesn't have 40%+ of their games at any of those positions. I assume Frank Baker is short John Franklin Baker. Nomar is Carciaparra on the 2019 ballot so missed him at first with ctrl-f.
   8. asinwreck Posted: December 21, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5910365)
3B- Brando, Nettles

Brando's absolutely in the Hall on peak value for Streetcar and Godfather alone, even if his decline phase was steep after The Freshman.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 21, 2019 at 09:32 PM (#5910366)
Ha- apparently the gatekeeper for ‘famous enough to be known by autocorrect’ is somewhere between Marlon Brando and Sal Bando.
   10. Walt Davis Posted: December 21, 2019 at 10:24 PM (#5910377)
C- Munson
1B- Olerud, W. Clark
3B- Brando, Nettles
SS- Campaneris
OF- Evans, Abreu
SP- Cone, John, Kaat


Those are very good choices, especially for off the top of your head. Depending on one's opinions of course, but Hernandez is an option at 1B (as probably will be Helton and Votto); probably Wynn or Reggie Smith or, of course, Edmonds as a CF (Andruw and Murphy too). While he may be the closest, I don't think I can agree with "better than Campaneris and you should be in." By WAR it's Campy at 53 then Reese at 66 which is a pretty big gap (Sewell in and Glasscock out are between those two). His WAR7 also isn't particularly good by SS standards. Basically, I'm not sure there is a "gatekeeper" for SS. (The only SS who's out that I'm highly certain should be in is Dahlen but I don't know enough about early ball to really make the case.)

3B is almost nothing but gatekeepers. :-) Not a very sexy candidate but we can easily add Bell to your list and Ken Boyer has a strong case of being the gatekeeper. SP is probably the toughest spot because SP usage usually changes every 10 years or so. Your choices are perfectly fine but even in that set we have to figure out how to compare Cone's 2900 IP to John's 4700.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 21, 2019 at 11:23 PM (#5910383)
Yeah, I struggled with SS. My frame of reference as far as players I know well enough off the top of my head only goes back to about the ‘50s, and I couldn’t really think of anyone other than Campy or maybe Concepcion. They definitely don’t fit as well as the other positions.

Edmonds and Bell also came to mind for me. The other ones you mention are also good choices.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: December 22, 2019 at 08:50 AM (#5910399)
Nomar is a gatekeeper from a different perspective - he was absolutely good enough, but his prime was a scant half-dozen seasons, and even his non-prime was paltry. Anyone doing Nomar things for 8-9 years is probably going to be in, and if he can add some bulk, easily in.
   13. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 22, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5910418)
For some reason the headline made me think of "Moronie deported to Sweden. Says he's not from there."
   14. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: December 22, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5910425)
I'd be happy if Vizquel somehow remains the gatekeeper at SS.
   15. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: December 22, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5910426)
Kindler's an interesting case. You'd think anybody with 57 WAR would at least be in the HOF discussion, but he never came close to an MVP, and his only ring came with the 2018 Red Sox, where he was a part-timer at best. If he'd won a ring or two in Detroit and had had a couple of more good seasons...nah, it still wouldn't have been enough, even with 65+ WAR.
   16. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 22, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5910435)
I'd be happy if Vizquel somehow remains the gatekeeper at SS.


I understand why Vizquel has HOF support, but really, one needs to be a lot better than him to get in. To pick one stat, Vizquel got MVP votes in just one season. His career 0.01 MVP shares is 1600th all time. On this ballot, that makes him tied for last among position players with Brian Roberts. Chone Figgins has more. Adam Dunn has more. Raul Ibanez has more. Paul Konerko has way more. Only once in his career did MVP voters think he was one of the 20 or so best position players in the league. That's the guy they now want to put in the HOF?
   17. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 22, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5910457)
If Kinsler is the Gatekeeper, who is the Keymaster?
   18. Walt Davis Posted: December 22, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5910473)
Vizquel can be the gatekeeper for defesnse-only SS. As to Nomar, absolutely an HoF-level performance for a few years and I suppose you're right you could consider that gatekeeping as in if you are Nomar with a longer prime or Nomar with another 10 years of averageness, you should be in.
   19. Swoboda is freedom Posted: December 22, 2019 at 04:39 PM (#5910481)
Nomar is a gatekeeper from a different perspective - he was absolutely good enough, but his prime was a scant half-dozen seasons, and even his non-prime was paltry. Anyone doing Nomar things for 8-9 years is probably going to be in, and if he can add some bulk, easily i


He has 6 seasons with 6 or more WAR. He had only one season with more than 2 WAR outside of the 6, and 1 other with more than 1. Lots of injuries. If he could have padded the resume with a bunch of 2 WAR seasons, I think he would have gotten in.

He would be Ernie Banks then.
   20. QLE Posted: December 23, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5910652)
#3- In the first place, there are ten players on your list that I find inferior to Kinsler, in some cases by massive amounts (Buehrle, Colon, Granderson, Hernandez, Pettitte, Sabathia, Tulowitski, Vizquel, Wright, and Zobrist), so that cuts us down to eleven.

There are also questions as for how many of these folk will still be on the ballot- a couple have good chaces of falling off between now and then (Abreu is on the borderline now; there's a chance that Utley becaomes the Bobby Grich of his generation), and there's a chance a couple might get inducted (look at the massive gains Rolen has had so far, with a few weak ballots to come).

As you noted, Pedroia still seems to be hoping to return- and, if he does, he's not on the same first ballot as Kinsler.

Finally, there is a matter of doubt- given how much Andruw Jones' HOF case depends on him being by far thebest fielding outfield of all time, and given some of the challenges made to that claim, there are reasons to drop him for Kinsler if it's the two fighting for one spot.

Overall, then, I believe it isn't that hard to find room for Kinsler, especially depending on how the next few ballots go.

A different question, and one of interest to me:

There are four second basemen who were active recently (and, in two cases, are still active now, albeit in one case nominally) who could be argued as meriting HOF induction, in Cano, Kinsler, Pedroia, and Utley. How strong a chance is there that none of them will be inducted?
   21. cookiedabookie Posted: December 23, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5910662)
There are four second basemen who were active recently (and, in two cases, are still active now, albeit in one case nominally) who could be argued as meriting HOF induction, in Cano, Kinsler, Pedroia, and Utley. How strong a chance is there that none of them will be inducted?

I think at least one of them is inducted. If I was a betting man, it would be Pedroia, as the anti-Cano. Cano is the best of the bunch, but that positive test will likely kill his HoF chances, unfortunately.

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