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Thursday, April 15, 2021

Pete Rose to sell picks for baseball, other sports through website

Pete Rose’s baseball predictions are for sale for $89 a month.

Rose announced Wednesday that he was joining UpickTrade, a pick-selling website based in Mexico that recently made headlines in the U.S. with a short-lived partnership with the Vegas Golden Knights of the NHL. Rose will be making daily predictions about baseball and other sports.

Rose, who turned 80 on Wednesday and resides in Las Vegas, was banished from baseball in 1989 after an investigation revealed that he had bet on the game while managing the Cincinnati Reds. He has appealed to be reinstated multiple times but has been denied, most recently in 2015 by then first-year commissioner Rob Manfred.

During a conference call with the media Wednesday, Rose said he won’t be placing wagers on his picks and doesn’t believe working for the sports betting site would damage his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame.

“By me working with Upick, I’m not hurting Rob Manfred. I’m not trying to show him up by doing that,” Rose said. “I’m trying to make a living like everyone else. I’m not making a bet on the baseball game; I’m picking a baseball game. I’m using my knowledge to pick a game for whoever is working with Upick.

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:44 PM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pete rose

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   1. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:29 AM (#6013744)
Rose said he won’t be placing wagers on his picks and doesn’t believe working for the sports betting site would damage his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame.
So, he’s saying he already has no chance?
   2. Walt Davis Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:49 AM (#6013747)
Cuz when I think "successful gambler", I think "Pete Rose."
   3. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:11 AM (#6013750)
So, he’s saying he already has no chance?
Let’s just say he knows the odds.
   4. The Duke Posted: April 16, 2021 at 10:46 AM (#6013769)
“Resides in Las Vegas”

Perfect
   5. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 10:53 AM (#6013771)
wow just: wow.
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 11:13 AM (#6013776)
Do you think that if Pete Rose were at all humble and contrite and had kept away from gambling since 1989, he would be in the Hall by now?
   7. Traderdave Posted: April 16, 2021 at 11:47 AM (#6013782)
Do you think that if Pete Rose were at all humble and contrite and had kept away from gambling since 1989, he would be in the Hall by now?


If the humility & contrition were sufficiently noteworthy -- and media worthy -- yes, I think so.
   8. bob gee Posted: April 16, 2021 at 11:59 AM (#6013785)
There's got to be a sports bettor signing up to go for the opposite of Rose's picks.
   9. Howie Menckel Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6013787)
Rose signs autographs - for a fee - five hours a day, seven days a week in Las Vegas.

but he says if he's not "working" and you come across him, he'll sign for free.

he also says he likes to surprise people - someone might say, "my grandma is 93 and she's a huge baseball fan. would you talk to her - it would mean a lot!"
   10. Ron J Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6013788)
#6 Hmm. Selig specifically noted that Rose had not done anything on that subject. So ... maybe. Selig surprised by taking the hard line when he finally made a formal response to Rose's request for reinstatement. And seemed to feel very strongly that he should stay banned.
   11. Gary Truth Serum Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:31 PM (#6013792)
Rose signs autographs - for a fee - five hours a day, seven days a week in Las Vegas.

I realize that used to be the case, but I stayed at Mandalay Bay for about a week last month and the memorabilia store where you could find Pete appeared to have closed during the pandemic. Has he set up shop somewhere else?
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:34 PM (#6013824)
I've got a few signed Rose books that I bought secondhand, and my favorite is a pristine copy of the Dowd Report where he signed his name less than an inch below Dowd's signature. Your first instinct in looking at the cover page is to think that by signing it Rose was endorsing the Report's findings.
   13. RJ in TO Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:53 PM (#6013830)
Do you think that if Pete Rose were at all humble and contrite and had kept away from gambling since 1989, he would be in the Hall by now?
A Hall of Famer former teammate (Mike Schmidt, I think, but it might have been Johnny Bench) mentioned years ago that baseball had tried to work with Rose to give him a route to return to the game and possibly election, but he couldn't abide by even the most basic of terms, which was "Could you please stop ####### gambling all the goddamned time?" Really, baseball would love to be able to elect him, but on their terms, and as Rose really doesn't seem to understand why what he did was wrong, it's kind of hard to get him to come around to their terms.

So I absolutely believe if Rose had been all humble and contrite and stayed away from gambling, he'd be in the Hall of Fame by now. But being humble and contrite, and staying away from gambling are three things that have never been part of the Pete Rose experience. It's basically saying that baseball would have reinstated Rose if he could fly by flapping his arms really hard - it's just not going to happen.


   14. Karl from NY Posted: April 16, 2021 at 03:12 PM (#6013837)
I think the closest comparable for forgiveness might be Andy Pettitte with the steroids? He basically said "yeah sorry my bad" and the media just forgot about it, there's no story in lambasting somebody who isn't fighting back.
   15. Ron J Posted: April 16, 2021 at 03:25 PM (#6013840)
#13 Pretty sure you're thinking of Joe Morgan. At least Morgan was trying to organize some kind of compromise that was contingent on Rose taking the basic steps you mentioned.
   16. dejarouehg Posted: April 16, 2021 at 03:39 PM (#6013842)
Given MLB's cozy relationship with Draft Kings, I don't think they have the moral superiority. Also, Selig being in the Hall and Rose isn't? Doesn't say much for the Hall.

No doubt Pete has a lot of low-life in him and this move is about a wise as when ARod's advisers told him to go scorched earth and sue MLB and the MLBPA.

But I remember how empty Santo getting in the Hall posthumously felt, (I'm a very small Hall guy so I wouldn't have been upset if he hadn't been inducted at all,) and hope that it doesn't happen the same way with Rose.

   17. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: April 16, 2021 at 04:07 PM (#6013850)
But I remember how empty Santo getting in the Hall posthumously felt, (I'm a very small Hall guy so I wouldn't have been upset if he hadn't been inducted at all,) and hope that it doesn't happen the same way with Rose.


Because you would rather celebrate him? If Rose ever gets into the hall, empty and joyless and sans-Pete Rose sounds just about right.
   18. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 05:24 PM (#6013862)
Given MLB's cozy relationship with Draft Kings,

AND MGM Resorts AND Bally's Sports AND whoever the bookies are who are running casinos inside of ballparks AND whatever other bookies Manfred is whoring MLB out to.....
   19. dejarouehg Posted: April 16, 2021 at 05:39 PM (#6013868)
Because you would rather celebrate him?


Having seen what a great player he was, I would be happy to see him get in the Hall.
   20. Traderdave Posted: April 16, 2021 at 06:00 PM (#6013877)
Having seen what a great player he was, I would be happy to see him get in the Hall.....




.....if he cleaned up his act -- A LOT. By cleaned up I mean things like PSA's for gambling addiction, a few public mea culpas, talking to school kids about the downside of gambling, publicly pushing back on the expansion of sports books etc etc. Do a lot of that for a lot of years and then maybe we can revisit the Hall idea.

But at this point A) clearly will never happen and B) MLB keeps getting deeper into bed with gambling every season, to the point of real hypocrisy.

   21. Walt Davis Posted: April 16, 2021 at 07:22 PM (#6013899)
Well ... just how honest would you want Rose to be? I agree that if all he had to cop to was "I shouldn't have bet on my own team to win" and then not gamble and the media and fans accept that, I agree he'd have gotten in. But if he says (or the media digs up) "I didn't bet on days when X was starting for us" ... not good. If he says "I wanted Y in the lineup because I had 10 grand on the game" ... not good. If he says "Rocco came by one night and threatened my family if I didn't pay up" ... not good. If he says "sure, that steroid dealer I hung out with was my supplier" ... very not good.

Anyway, at this point I don't think there's anything he can do to get in before he dies ... and even if there is, there's no reason to believe he'd do it. After he's dead, I don't know which way they'll break.

EDIT: To remind, my personal stance is I don't care if he gets into the HoF but he should be banned from baseball.
   22. Rough Carrigan Posted: April 16, 2021 at 07:53 PM (#6013906)
Pete was notoriously bad at picking winners when he had inside information. How has he gotten smarter since then?
   23. Howie Menckel Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:13 PM (#6013909)
he claimed this week that he bet on his team on every game, and that he shouldn't have done that and it was a big mistake on his part.

I just never got that into this whole saga, but I can guess that he said something else entirely at some point over the last 30 years. and he says he doesn't gamble on sports - not even with his own "picks."

I dunno.
   24. dejarouehg Posted: April 17, 2021 at 09:05 AM (#6013952)
.....if he cleaned up his act -- A LOT. By cleaned up I mean things like PSA's for gambling addiction, a few public mea culpas, talking to school kids about the downside of gambling, publicly pushing back on the expansion of sports books etc etc. Do a lot of that for a lot of years and then maybe we can revisit the Hall idea.

But at this point A) clearly will never happen and B) MLB keeps getting deeper into bed with gambling every season, to the point of real hypocrisy.


He's "mea culpa'd" plenty, but then his actions belie any genuineness (Is that all spelled correctly?).....BECAUSE HE'S A FREAKING GAMBLER!

Does anyone really want Pete Rose talking at schools? Especially when half the boys in the audience have their fantasy teams!

I don't believe in phony apologies. I think what people say off-the-cuff or write without pausing to hit "send" is the truer indication of their real feelings. The post-tweet "that's not an true indication of who I really am," is just b.s. and I appreciate that Rose doesn't twist himself into pretzels to try to appease everyone.

He's not the guy you want your daughter to marry, but the HoF isn't about that and there are other cheats and gamblers already in there. I think he's served his penance.

I used to buy into the argument he didn't belong, (and certainly still understand and respect it,) but the more I watch how today's game is played, the more I appreciate how great a player he was.

By the way, his "downside" was not making the HoF - not really a concern for too many people. And, for all of his many, many warts, he's done fairly well for himself.

I guess he can always do a Mickey Mantle and say, "you know kids, if you believe in integrity, don't be like me." crickets
   25. AstrosOldTimer Posted: April 17, 2021 at 09:13 AM (#6013956)
> Do you think that if Pete Rose were at all humble and contrite and had kept away from gambling since 1989, he would be in the Hall by now?

Rose lost his chance to apply for reinstatement within one year (part of the original deal) the day that Bart Giamatti died.
   26. AstrosOldTimer Posted: April 17, 2021 at 09:19 AM (#6013958)
> I think the closest comparable for forgiveness might be Andy Pettitte with the steroids? He basically said "yeah sorry my bad" and the media just forgot about it, there's no story in lambasting somebody who isn't fighting back.

Andy Pettitte wasn't a future Hall of Famer, so there's no incentive to gin up the controversy surrounding his eligibility as opposed to players like Rose, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, etc. And frankly Rose's off-the-field gambling pales in comparison to the on-the-field cheating committed by players since but he was the first HOF controversy of modern times, people still want to lay that original sin on him.
   27. Ron J Posted: April 17, 2021 at 09:55 AM (#6013962)
#25 All the deal did on that score was confirm that he wasn't giving up the right to appeal for reinstatement that every player on the ineligible list has.

Oh I found an unusually strong statement by Manfred on the matter which deals with the question asked earlier.

"In short, Mr. Rose has not presented credible evidence of a reconfigured life either by an honest acceptance by him of his wrongdoing, so clearly established in the Dowd Report, or by a rigorous, self-aware and sustained program of avoidance by him of all the circumstances that led to his permanent in eligibility in 1989." (this in his response to Rose's first appeal to him)


"Mr. Rose's public and private comments, including his initial admission in 2004, provide me with little confidence that he has a mature understanding of his wrongful conduct, that he has accepted full responsibility for it, or that he understands the damage he has caused"

"I am also not convinced that he has avoided the type of conduct and associations that originally led to his placement on the permanently ineligible list."

And before him there was Bud Selig's, "Pete did accept a voluntary lifetime suspension from Dr. Giamatti. There hasn't been any new evidence since then. Just from my answer, you'll understand my depth of feeling on this subject."

Baseball's walking a tight line. Player gambling was an existential threat to baseball around 1920 and there's still institutional memory of this. What baseball's attempting to argue is that as long as the games are on the level there's nothing inherently wrong with the league itself profiting from an association with gambling. It's just tough to avoid that partnership coloring the public perception -- and this is all about perception. (And as I've said before, I expect any issues that arise to be proposition betting. A lot of players won't see anything truly wrong with this as long as the game results aren't affected)
   28. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 17, 2021 at 11:16 AM (#6013968)
As a GenX'er who all my friends know as the baseball history buff, it absolutely sucks a number of the biggest names in the sport of my lifetime - really, in the history of American sports - are just total black sheep. Even worse, it seems like most of them aren't even trying to make things right:

Pete Rose has more hits than anybody...and is remarkably unlikable and unrepentant. To see him today is to know he is a complete narcissist who clearly has a gambling problem, and is in complete denial that he did anything wrong. It is almost impossible to imagine him sounding contrite.

Barry Bonds has more home runs than anybody...and yet pretty much nobody talks of him like he is the greatest home run hitter ever. The home run is probably the greatest, most American sports feat. It is probably the single type of sports accomplishment that more kids emulate, over the history of the country, than any other. We call something that is a smashing success a "home run". Even people that don't like baseball refer to something that couldn't have gone better as a "grand slam" - the greatest kind of home run. And yet Bonds clearly cheated, to the point where he looked misshapen and swollen during his historic run. His numbers were so out of whack. Look at his 2001 to 2004 - I am embarrassed that, in the moment, I wasn't outraged at his clearly artificial numbers. (In 2004, as a 39-year-old, he had 232 walks, including 120 intentional walks. He had an OPS+ of 263..at 39. This would be like 44-year-old Tom Brady next season not just winning the Super Bowl, but doing it while he threw for 6,500 yards and 70 touchdowns or something.) Like Rose, I have to explain that he was the greatest player I've ever seen...but will all kinds of caveats...and he may never go into the Hall of Fame.

Clemens is the same thing. Along with Maddux, probably the two greatest pitchers of my lifetime. But Clemens is remarkably unlikable. He obviously cheated, which is even more frustrating when you consider that, like Bonds, he was already an all-time great. Red Sox Clemens and Pirates Bonds were already Hall of Famers, and fabulously wealthy - so why screw around with that?

Then there's Manny Ramirez - one of the greatest right-handed swings in history, and a complete savant with the bat. An amazing hitter. Sammy Sosa is an important part of baseball history - and getting 10% of the HOF vote with 600+ home runs. Palmeiro's got 3000 hits...and is irrelevent. McGwire. Sheffield. Sigh.

And now, as a Red Sox fan, I feel obligated to completely step away from Curt Schilling. He is obviously a Hall of Famer, and there's not a whiff of accusation that he juiced up or anything. His leading role in breaking the 86-year drought for the Red Sox was truly an important moment in my life. I was explaining the Bloody Sock game to a younger person recently, and it is an amazing story...but it is totally messed up by Schilling incredibly terrible behavior and words since his retirement. Now, I don't want him to get in the HOF next year, because I have no confidence in his ability to take the high road with his speech in Cooperstown.

I don't know if it comes up enough in exactly this context, but when people ask why baseball seems to be in decline relative to other sports in America, the attention tends to focus on the product on the field. The players and athletes are very exciting today - from Betts and Trout to Tatis and Acuna - but the pace of play and the lack of on-field action really detract from the wonderful athleticism and charisma of these young stars. But the degradation of the history of baseball during the years when GenX was watching the game have made it a lot harder to pass the game down to our kids. All the problems listed above have made reliving our baseball memories asterisk-filled (when you are explaining, you are losing). And the historic underrepresentation of the players of the 1980s in the Hall of Fame means that properly describing the greatest of that era of baseball to the next generation is more subtle, and requires more storytelling...and all those asterisks and qualifiers makes telling the stories more difficult. And we are trying to pass down those stories to a generation whose attention span has been reduced by technology. Add the slowed pace of play mentioned above, and...well, baseball is stuck in a vicious circle right now, relative to basketball, football, and other small-but-growing sports like UFC.

Sorry for the rant - this came up the other day with a fellow GenX'er, and watching Pete Rose just keeping digging the hole for himself reminded me of this conversation...
   29. depletion Posted: April 17, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6013972)
Mr PersonalTrainer: You wrote that a lot better than I could. If I might suggest, look to the future, not the past. It will take time to heal the wounds your describe, but I think you hit the nail on the head with "The players and athletes are very exciting today". I'm pretty stoked for this season, full disclosure - I'm a Mets fan. But just reading about the Padres-Dodgers game this morning gets me stoked. Rondon's no-hitter the other day got me stoked (thanks to MLB for changing the feed from pay to free for the last inning or so). Look at all the great players from Latin America and Asia today! It'd be really cool if we could also grow the game in Africa and the former Soviet Union. So in short, f Pete Rose, f Barry Bonds. Go watch a Sox game and forget about those guys.
   30. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: April 17, 2021 at 12:37 PM (#6013974)
What baseball's attempting to argue is that as long as the games are on the level there's nothing inherently wrong with the league itself profiting from an association with gambling. It's just tough to avoid that partnership coloring the public perception -- and this is all about perception. (And as I've said before, I expect any issues that arise to be proposition betting. A lot of players won't see anything truly wrong with this as long as the game results aren't affected)

I've posted this article before but I keep going back to it because it lays out what's going to happen here once you can't watch sports without being assaulted with a constant stream of prop bets and gambling ads.
Gambling is very visible in English football. This season (2018), almost 60% of clubs in England’s top two divisions have the names of gambling companies on their shirts – that’s nine of the 20 Premier League clubs, and 17 of the 24 in the Championship. Watch live football on any platform this season and - aside from the number of betting companies you will see on club shirts, advertising hoardings, and even stadium names - you’ll see a wealth of gambling companies giving out the latest odds during the ad breaks.

In a study of almost 350 footballers and cricketers conducted by the Professional Players’ Federation (PPF), results suggested sportspeople were three times more likely than the general public to be problem gamblers. One in 10 sportsmen interviewed by the PPF said they gambled to "fit in", one in four said they were encouraged by team-mates to do it, and nearly one in three thought their team's links with the gambling industry "encouraged" them to bet.
   31. Howie Menckel Posted: April 17, 2021 at 01:22 PM (#6013982)
Pete Rose has more hits than anybody...and is remarkably unlikable and unrepentant. To see him today is to know he is a complete narcissist who clearly has a gambling problem, and is in complete denial that he did anything wrong.

Pete Rose this week: “I’m not going to sit here and tell you I didn’t make a mistake. I made a mistake betting on baseball. I needed something else when I retired as an active player and I believed in my players so much, I had so many good young players so I just bet on them to win every night.”
   32. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 17, 2021 at 04:38 PM (#6014029)
Well said, SBPT
   33. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: April 17, 2021 at 05:46 PM (#6014041)
Pete was notoriously bad at picking winners when he had inside information. How has he gotten smarter since then?


You should find out. Report back.
"...I just bet on them to win every night.”


Lie.
   34. Ron J Posted: April 17, 2021 at 06:17 PM (#6014050)
#33 Well yeah. Of course he's lying. He's lied at every step of this -- changing his story only when the previous version is proven completely false.
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: April 17, 2021 at 06:19 PM (#6014053)
the point wasn't whether he was lying, but in response to "in complete denial that he did anything wrong."
   36. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: April 18, 2021 at 09:12 AM (#6014111)
the point wasn't whether he was lying, but in response to "in complete denial that he did anything wrong."


I see. So he's only in 95% denial.
   37. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 18, 2021 at 10:14 AM (#6014115)
And apparently unclear about the meaning of the word “mistake.”
   38. Greg Pope Posted: April 18, 2021 at 11:51 AM (#6014121)
if he cleaned up his act -- A LOT. By cleaned up I mean things like PSA's for gambling addiction, a few public mea culpas, talking to school kids about the downside of gambling, publicly pushing back on the expansion of sports books etc etc. Do a lot of that for a lot of years and then maybe we can revisit the Hall idea.

But at this point A) clearly will never happen and B) MLB keeps getting deeper into bed with gambling every season, to the point of real hypocrisy.


Knowing what we know now, I think if he did that starting now, he still wouldn't get in. Enough people would not believe he was sincere based on his constant lies (what Ron J said in 33).

If he had done that from the start? He might make the HOF. But there would still be a large group of people who would not accept it. Look at Michael Vick. Not from a HOF perspective, obviously. He went to jail and served his time. He spoke out against dog fighting. He went to schools and told kids that he was raised one way but he learned that it was wrong. He has done animal charity work. He openly admits what happened and that he has learned better. In other words, exactly what you'd prescribe for someone who is truly repentant and has learned their lesson. And yet, if his name ever comes up, there are people who say he's evil (They say a lot of things, but it boils down to this). What is the percentage? I don't know. But some people will never forgive.
   39. Greg Pope Posted: April 18, 2021 at 11:54 AM (#6014122)
SBPT, thanks for that post. While I disagree with some of the details, I agree with your overall point. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done. Can baseball be repaired if it's (sort of) missed a generation?
   40. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: April 18, 2021 at 03:47 PM (#6014153)


Look at Michael Vick.


Bad example. Truly repentant? Doubtful. One doesn't hook dogs up to car batteries and throw them into swimming pools and then, after "education", become repentant at all. That type of inhumanity isn't programmed out of people in a short period of time. His career depended on his "repenting", and "repenting" he did, publicly, else he would be unemployed. He shed no tears for the dogs tortured under his watch.
   41. dejarouehg Posted: April 18, 2021 at 06:59 PM (#6014177)
Look at Michael Vick.


Bad example. Truly repentant? Doubtful. One doesn't hook dogs up to car batteries and throw them into swimming pools and then, after "education", become repentant at all. That type of inhumanity isn't programmed out of people in a short period of time. His career depended on his "repenting", and "repenting" he did, publicly, else he would be unemployed. He shed no tears for the dogs tortured under his watch.


Thank you! Couldn't agree more.
   42. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: April 18, 2021 at 08:44 PM (#6014195)
But the degradation of the history of baseball during the years when GenX was watching the game have made it a lot harder to pass the game down to our kids. All the problems listed above have made reliving our baseball memories asterisk-filled (when you are explaining, you are losing).


Balboni: Great post. Thank you. I shall add the above perspective to my disdain for Selig, a supposed lover of baseball history, who never seemed to understand that he was a character in the baseball drama. I see him as a greater villain than anyone else in my lifetime, and it's not even close.
   43. Greg Pope Posted: April 18, 2021 at 09:50 PM (#6014202)
So... you’ve proved my point. Vick did everything you would expect a repentant person could do and at least two posters here are still convinced it’s fake.
   44. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 19, 2021 at 10:44 AM (#6014240)
Balboni: Good post, although I think today's problem with baseball is more a matter of Way Too Many Strikeouts and the pace of the game in general than any residual damage from Pete Rose, Barry Bonds & Co.
   45. SoSH U at work Posted: April 19, 2021 at 10:56 AM (#6014243)
So... you’ve proved my point. Vick did everything you would expect a repentant person could do and at least two posters here are still convinced it’s fake.


Yup. They sure did.
   46. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 19, 2021 at 11:28 AM (#6014245)
So... you’ve proved my point. Vick did everything you would expect a repentant person could do and at least two posters here are still convinced it’s fake.


I agree with that, and to bring this back to baseball, people used to say that if accused juicers were really innocent, they'd sue their accusers for defamation. So Roger Clemens sued the only person who ever made any accusations against him regarding PED use, and... people still write things like "He obviously cheated."
   47. Dolf Lucky Posted: April 19, 2021 at 12:07 PM (#6014249)
Balboni: Good post, although I think today's problem with baseball is more a matter of Way Too Many Strikeouts and the pace of the game in general than any residual damage from Pete Rose, Barry Bonds & Co.


The issues are related. The people who managed the game that led to the historical legacy concerns that Balboni raised are not a perfect overlap with today's Powers That Be, but they are of the same short-sighted feckless cloth.

The mindset that produces extra-innings ghost runners as a response to pace of play concerns seems to me entirely connected to the mindset that incentivizes and then shuns the bodybuilding sluggers of the 90s.
   48. reech Posted: April 19, 2021 at 01:18 PM (#6014260)
So... you’ve proved my point. Vick did everything you would expect a repentant person could do and at least two posters here are still convinced it’s fake.

Vick killed dogs. I don't care how much he repents...he can rot in Hell.
   49. Greg Pope Posted: April 19, 2021 at 03:12 PM (#6014275)
Vick killed dogs. I don't care how much he repents...he can rot in Hell.

That's a different take. And it's completely your right to have that take. I'm not suggesting that we let murderers go just because they say they're sorry.

Joe and deja say that they don't believe Vick's repentance. Basically that it's impossible that he actually repented. Despite him doing everything you could ask someone to do*. I think the same thing applies to Rose. If Rose had showed genuine remorse and done the things outlined earlier, there would be plenty of people who wouldn't believe him.

*Now, to be fair, I cannot find any articles that talk about Vick's dog-related actions after his retirement. He's coaching, apparently. I don't know if he's kept up his charitable work.
   50. dejarouehg Posted: April 19, 2021 at 03:38 PM (#6014279)
Just because someone behaves with contrition, does not mean that they are forgiven. When you behave in a "Hitlerian-" fashion, there is no amount of contrition. Too F'ing Bad!

I just don't accept the universal "everyone deserves a second chance" thing. What Vick did is a level of evil that you can't apologize for.

That said, I actually - if pressed - believe that Vick's level of contrition is ever-so-slightly more legit than Rose, but Rose's was essentially harmless.

Rose is what he is. If he told you today was Monday, you'd probably have to check what side of the international date line you were on first before you'd consider believing him.

I guess I just don't care about what he did any more and MLB's hypocrisy on gambling makes it that much easier for me to root for his inclusion.



   51. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 19, 2021 at 04:58 PM (#6014292)
For everything I wrote in my post above, there is something that is bad luck, as it relates to baseball: As it relates to the influence of analytics to basketball, football, and baseball, it is generally the case that the resulting enlightenment had the effect of making football and basketball more exciting, and baseball less exciting.

Take basketball. The analytics eventually convinced teams that you should shoot tons of three-pointers, since they are...a) worth 50% more than two-pointers, and b) if you miss, you are more likely to get the offensive rebound, anyway. Eventually, teams and players went whole-hog on this, and the game is faster, higher-scoring, and more diverse than ever. Isthere any doubt that NBA is a better product now than it was in the late 90s, when playoff games were getting won with 80 points regularly? It was ugly, physical, slow basketball.

Take football. There have been rule changes to reduce the chance of injuries (like big hits as receivers cross the field, for example), and to open up the passing game, but the analytics have encouraged teams to think more about the pass, and less about the running game. It's got elements of the west coast offense of the 49ers dynasty period, but it is much less dependent on the run than even those days. It is very exciting football, also influenced by the college passing game, and it is rewarding teams with quarterbacks that are smart, mobile, and able to play at a high pace (Mahomes, Watson, Wilson, Jackson, Allen, Murray, etc.)

What do we know about changes in baseball? Unless you can steal a base at ~75% success rate, you are at best breaking even on the risk.We know that OBP is a better indicator of ability to produce runs than batting average. We know that there is more luck to the outcome of a ball put in play than was long believed, so it is better to get strikeout pitchers than "pitch to contact" pitchers. We now also have the data to better place fielders to maximize the chance of getting a batter out on the part of what happens after a ball is batted that we *do* control. And it is easier to identify marginal advantages in pitching matchups vs batters...and the rules make it much easier for the defensive team to determine a specific matchup than the offensive team.

All of this leads to less action on the baseball field - fewer stolen base attempts, fewer baserunners, fewer balls being chased around the field, etc. It is a less athletic sports than it used to be, which is too bad, because I think today's most exciting young players are almost certainly in better shape than the best young players of the 70s and 80s. Look at video from a game in the 70s or 80s. With a few prominent exceptions (Andre Dawson and Jim Rice come to mind), the players of that era are just not in as good a shape as today's players.

That is true of today's NFL quarterbacks, and today's NBA stars - but unlike baseball, those games are better equipped to elevate those improved athletes. Patrick Mahomes and Steph Curry are doing athletic things all game long. How often to you get to see, say, Mookie Betts do something athletic? Maybe 2-3 plate appearances a game, probably a couple of defensive plays a game.

I'm not saying sports shouldn't use advanced analytics - they should, and will. But baseball needs to figure out how to use this advanced knowledge to tweak the rules, the pace of play, and the incentive structures to make the sport more athletic and dynamic.
   52. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 19, 2021 at 05:33 PM (#6014299)
The NBA also changed the rules to promote a more exciting game.
   53. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 19, 2021 at 05:39 PM (#6014300)
Do the commissioners of the other pro sports leagues believe they have to ask the players’ permission for every single rule change?
   54. SoSH U at work Posted: April 19, 2021 at 05:54 PM (#6014302)
Take basketball. The analytics eventually convinced teams that you should shoot tons of three-pointers, since they are...a) worth 50% more than two-pointers, and b) if you miss, you are more likely to get the offensive rebound, anyway. Eventually, teams and players went whole-hog on this, and the game is faster, higher-scoring, and more diverse than ever. Isthere any doubt that NBA is a better product now than it was in the late 90s, when playoff games were getting won with 80 points regularly? It was ugly, physical, slow basketball.

Take football. There have been rule changes to reduce the chance of injuries (like big hits as receivers cross the field, for example), and to open up the passing game, but the analytics have encouraged teams to think more about the pass, and less about the running game. It's got elements of the west coast offense of the 49ers dynasty period, but it is much less dependent on the run than even those days. It is very exciting football, also influenced by the college passing game, and it is rewarding teams with quarterbacks that are smart, mobile, and able to play at a high pace (Mahomes, Watson, Wilson, Jackson, Allen, Murray, etc.)


I don't agree at all. I find the overwhelming reliance on both the 3-point shot in basketball and the abandonment of the running game to be quite boring. Just like baseball, too much of even a good thing is not appealing.
   55. Greg Pope Posted: April 19, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#6014349)
I agree with SOSH on basketball. Today’s game is really boring. Players run around a lot but all they’re doing to is trying to get an open 3. There’s no inside game, no one on one, no driving to the basket.

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