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Sunday, May 02, 2021

Phillies’ Joe Girardi blasts ‘terrible’ judgement call that was not reviewable in one-run loss vs. Mets

A bad week for Major League Baseball’s umpires and baseline calls culminated with another blown call during Saturday’s game between the New York Mets and the Philadelphia Phillies. As a result, Bryce Harper was ejected from the contest and the Phillies lost an opportunity to bat with a runner in scoring position in what turned out to be a one-run loss.

The error in judgement, committed by second-base umpire Jose Navas, occurred during the seventh inning. The Phillies had Andrew McCutchen at first base with one out in a tied game when Matt Joyce hit a grounder to shortstop Francisco Lindor, who was stationed on the second-base side of the bag as part of an overshift. After fielding the ball, Lindor pursued McCutchen before then firing to first base in time for the out.

Though Lindor didn’t actually apply a tag on McCutchen, Navas called an out after concluding that McCutchen had left the baseline. The play, because it was of the judgement variety, was not reviewable.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 02, 2021 at 06:25 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: phillies, umpiring

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   1. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 02, 2021 at 06:35 PM (#6016560)
McCutchen ran in a straight line, never leaving the infield dirt area. He did slide awkwardly into 2nd, but well after he had passed Lindor. Lindor just took a few steps toward McCutchen, realized he couldn’t tag him, and threw to 1st without ever getting near McCutchen. A bizarre, and obviously incorrect, call.
   2. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: May 02, 2021 at 07:20 PM (#6016565)
let's all just be glad he didn't go into law enforcement.
   3. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 02, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6016566)
Even the Mets TV crew was talking about how awful the call was. Then again, they are usually good about calling out bad umpiring even when the calls help the Mets.
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: May 02, 2021 at 07:54 PM (#6016570)
as I noted in last night's Chatter, announcer Gary Cohen said that pitcher's interference (MIL?) was the worst call of the year until this one.

I do tend to forget that a professional announcing crew aggressively ripping an umpire for making a terrible call - even one that benefits the "home team" - is not the gold standard across all broadcast booths.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: May 02, 2021 at 07:58 PM (#6016571)
as I noted in last night's Chatter, announcer Gary Cohen said that pitcher's interference (MIL?) was the worst call of the year until this one.


I hope he didn't call it interference.

I think the Brewers call was worse, because this was just a guy who just whiffed it. In the Brewers game, he was injecting himself needlessly into the game, while also applying the rule incorrectly.

   6. Howie Menckel Posted: May 02, 2021 at 08:26 PM (#6016575)
well, the main point here was that the Mets announcer was not excusing an ump because he helped "us" out.
in fact, if he is making the call benefiting the Mets even more egregious than you think that other call was, it only adds to the lack of homer-ism.
   7. The Duke Posted: May 02, 2021 at 09:49 PM (#6016583)
There have been a lot of bad ump calls, a lot of bad replay reviews, and it also seems a tremendous number of questionable “judgment” calls. I’m assuming at this point that umps are rebelling against the system and seeking out ways to screw around on calls that can’t be reviewed
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: May 02, 2021 at 10:09 PM (#6016587)
There have been a lot of bad ump calls, a lot of bad replay reviews, and it also seems a tremendous number of questionable “judgment” calls. I’m assuming at this point that umps are rebelling against the system and seeking out ways to screw around on calls that can’t be reviewed


Fully agree... I don't know the rationale behind it, but it feels like umps are intentionally making bad calls on non-reviewable calls collectively to show a point, it might be about robot umps or whatever, but I do think some of this is intentional, and I don't think they fully thought it through the argument that they are trying to make. I think they feel that they are trying to make a point that robot umps could never make these calls, so us making bad calls shows that robot umps can't do the job....They are trying to show that the rule book enforcement requires judgement calls, that is the impression I get, and they are doing it by making bad calls on purpose, saying that if you had a robot ump, the robot ump would have made that call, because that is what the rule book says.

The problem is that they would have to then defend their calls to the press, AND at the same time mention that if there is a non-human there, that is the only call they can make, and they do not have the guts to follow through with the second part, as it would mean that they are admitting they are making bad calls on purpose.
   9. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: May 02, 2021 at 10:20 PM (#6016589)
well, the main point here was that the Mets announcer was not excusing an ump because he helped "us" out.
Oh come on, Howie, everyone is well aware Gary, Keith, and Ron learned how to evaluate controversial plays from straight-down-the-middle guys like Rizzuto and Harrelson...
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: May 02, 2021 at 11:09 PM (#6016595)
well, the main point here was that the Mets announcer was not excusing an ump because he helped "us" out.


No question. When I watched the initial video replay, I was impressed that it was SNY so clearly calling out what an atrocious call it was.
   11. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 03, 2021 at 12:56 AM (#6016605)
The Mets won tonight on an overturned HR call, but it pretty clearly looked like the correct call to me. The ball hit the railing that marks the top of the wall, but didn’t go over, and was rightfully ruled not to be a HR. A HR would have tied it for Philly.
   12. shoelesjoe Posted: May 03, 2021 at 06:38 AM (#6016616)
I don’t think umps are intentionally making bad judgement calls in an attempt to demonstrate the difference between their understanding of the rule book, and the presumed understanding of proposed robot umps. I think they’re consciously or subconsciously trying to get attention by inserting themselves into situations where they’re not needed, and in the process making bad calls that only draw attention to their bad judgment. The old adage was that the best umpires are those you don’t notice. Maybe these guys feel like not getting noticed (even if it’s for all the right reasons) is one step towards being replaced by machines.
   13. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 03, 2021 at 07:45 AM (#6016617)
The arbitrary "This isn't reviewable" is bullshit. Make everything reviewable, or nothing.
   14. manchestermets Posted: May 03, 2021 at 07:59 AM (#6016620)
As a result, Bryce Harper was ejected from the contest


No. It's not a defence of the bad call to say that Harper didn't have to ##### about it until he got thrown out, and his ejection was the result of his choice to do so. In all sports, players getting penalised for arguing with officials drives me mad - has there been a single occasion in sporting history where an official has reversed a call because a player argued with them?
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: May 03, 2021 at 08:09 AM (#6016621)
In all sports, players getting penalised for arguing with officials drives me mad - has there been a single occasion in sporting history where an official has reversed a call because a player argued with them?


I changed a call once in a CYO soccer game. Of course, that was because the kid who I thought scored told me the ball hadn't fully cleared the line. I don't see that happening much in MLB.
   16. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: May 03, 2021 at 08:09 AM (#6016622)
For the life of me I can't understand this call. I totally understand why the Milwaukee call was made the way it was but this one makes no sense to me. What on earth did the ump see to make him think that was the right call?
   17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 03, 2021 at 08:48 AM (#6016627)

In all sports, players getting penalised for arguing with officials drives me mad - has there been a single occasion in sporting history where an official has reversed a call because a player argued with them?


So you can get a makeup call later in the game, or at least be in his head when he makes a 50/50 call.
   18. Ron J Posted: May 03, 2021 at 09:47 AM (#6016632)
#17 I think the best example might be the Merkle call in 1908. Evers argued that call in a game earlier in the season and didn't get the call. Same ump, same play and he got the call against Merkle.
   19. Nasty Nate Posted: May 03, 2021 at 10:35 AM (#6016639)
Is it just me, or has there been a trend over the past few decades of umpires more and more not allowing baserunners to try to avoid tags on the basepaths? This seems like an extension of that.
   20. JJ1986 Posted: May 03, 2021 at 10:41 AM (#6016641)
For the life of me I can't understand this call. I totally understand why the Milwaukee call was made the way it was but this one makes no sense to me. What on earth did the ump see to make him think that was the right call?
The Mets radio guys thought that Lindor told the umpires something that caused the call.
   21. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: May 03, 2021 at 10:55 AM (#6016642)
Interesting. What could he have told him? "I have photos that I'll send your wife."
   22. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 03, 2021 at 11:28 AM (#6016647)
Is it just me, or has there been a trend over the past few decades of umpires more and more not allowing baserunners to try to avoid tags on the basepaths? This seems like an extension of that.

I have the same feeling. I have no proof.

   23. SoSH U at work Posted: May 03, 2021 at 11:45 AM (#6016650)
If that's the case, it's just another terrible (if small) trend in MLB.
   24. Padraic Posted: May 03, 2021 at 12:01 PM (#6016652)
The "explanation" for what happened had to be that he saw Cutch slide awkwardly, and incorrectly assumed it had been caused by bending his body out of the baseline. Obviously this was very wrong, but I think the slide had everything to do with it. Also worth noting that the guy who made the call was a call-up umpire, and not part of the regular rotation.

Minor league ump making bad call is a more likely explanation than some of the speculation above.
   25. Howie Menckel Posted: May 03, 2021 at 12:09 PM (#6016653)
McCutchen seemed to be running further left than the usual "running path" - and it turned out to be convenient, based on where the ball was hit.

it clearly was a bad call, but I wasn't as shocked as many here are.

fwiw, in the Sunday night game, a Mets pitcher threw ball 4 on a 3-2 pitch but the blind mouse ump called it a strike. Cutch strolled down to first about 75 feet as if he didn't hear the call, before making a sharp right turn as his exit.

subtle, effective 'dis' of the ump.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: May 03, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6016654)
McCutchen seemed to be running further left than the usual "running path" -


If he was left of the usual path, then most guys are running right of a straight line between the two bases.
   27. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 03, 2021 at 12:54 PM (#6016658)
I find this call to be even worse than the bad obstruction call. As bad as that call was, I can at least see why the umpire called it from his vantage point. This call is absurd. From the time Lindor catches the ball and begins to make a play on McCutchen (i.e. when the baserunner establishes his path), McCutchen runs in a straight line toward second base. And what makes it more inexplicable is that there is a straight line right there on the field where we can measure his steps - the edge of the infield grass. Had he veered onto the grass, there's an argument that he moved out of the baseline, although it would need to be more than three feet, but he didn't, and you can clearly see it. This is a terrible call.

I know the problems with replay are numerous, but there is no reason why this can't be reviewed. All calls are judgment calls. If we're going to have replay, let's try to get these right.
   28. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 03, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6016659)
I know the problems with replay are numerous, but there is no reason why this can't be reviewed. All calls are judgment calls. If we're going to have replay, let's try to get these right.
Amen. "The replay conclusively shows this call to be ridiculous, but...nah" should never be a thing.
   29. bunyon Posted: May 03, 2021 at 01:42 PM (#6016664)
Worse, the bad calls in this play effectively cancelled one another. However, one was reversible and one wasn't, so one team got badly screwed instead of just a bit.

Basketball does this all the time. There will be a review to see "who last touched the ball" before it went out of bounds. You discover the wrong guy was called for last touching it but the guy who did touch it last touched it because he was shoved into the path of the ball. Can't call fouls on review, though, so just reverse the possession, which would have slightly negated the missed foul call.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: May 03, 2021 at 01:50 PM (#6016666)
Basketball does this all the time. There will be a review to see "who last touched the ball" before it went out of bounds. You discover the wrong guy was called for last touching it but the guy who did touch it last touched it because he was shoved into the path of the ball. Can't call fouls on review, though, so just reverse the possession, which would have slightly negated the missed foul call.


That very scenario quite possibly cost Texas Tech the national championship.
   31. manchestermets Posted: May 03, 2021 at 02:19 PM (#6016672)
So you can get a makeup call later in the game, or at least be in his head when he makes a 50/50 call.


I guess, but if you take it to the extent that you get thrown out you're probably also blowing the chance of a makeup call.
   32. bunyon Posted: May 03, 2021 at 03:17 PM (#6016685)
Basketball does this all the time. There will be a review to see "who last touched the ball" before it went out of bounds. You discover the wrong guy was called for last touching it but the guy who did touch it last touched it because he was shoved into the path of the ball. Can't call fouls on review, though, so just reverse the possession, which would have slightly negated the missed foul call.


That very scenario quite possibly cost Texas Tech the national championship.


This is the "human element" that robots will miss. I feel like a lot of times umps/refs aren't sure and sort of makeup a call somewhere in the middle. It isn't as good as getting every call 100% but might, is arguably, better than getting some calls precisely right while leaving other calls blatant and obvious errors. If the call on the runner at first (in TFA play) doesn't get reversed by replay, this call doesn't feel nearly as egregiously wrong.
   33. DonPedro Posted: May 03, 2021 at 03:46 PM (#6016688)
It was clear via context what the author meant in the passage, "Francisco Lindor, who was stationed on the second-base side of the bag as part of an overshift", but aren't all of the sides of the keystone sack equally the "second-base side?

please check your local bookstore for my latest offering, Pedantry- It Isn't Just an Quirk; Its a Lifestyle
   34. Obo Posted: May 03, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6016692)
please check your local bookstore for my latest offering, Pedantry- It Isn't Just an Quirk; Its a Lifestyle

No need to apologize for pointing out nonsense.
   35. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: May 03, 2021 at 08:26 PM (#6016720)
Pedantry- It Isn't Just an Quirk; Its a Lifestyle


Always good when pedants have multiple typos.
   36. The Duke Posted: May 03, 2021 at 09:08 PM (#6016735)
If you are going to replay every play, then get rid of the umps. Let the players call the game themselves. Anything they can’t agree on goes to the booth. 98% of calls are clear cut. Home plate ump can adjudicate the rare situation that requires someone to interpret a rule
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: May 03, 2021 at 09:25 PM (#6016740)
Let the players call the game themselves.

we did this for several years in my youth in my neighborhood, playing every day all summer with zero adult supervision and precious few controversies. everybody walked or rode a bike to the field, and returned home (unscathed) the same way.

I only played "organized ball" in 2 years, and many of the kids never joined.
the adult supervision - kind of got in the way of a good ballgame sometimes.
more fun to choose our own teams, and make other decisions on our own as well.

same for football, basketball, outdoor pond hockey, tennis, and soccer.

and yes, it IS hard to believe I haven't turned 60 yet.

#getoffmylawn

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