I've been saying for years that with how brittle Harper is and what a special hitter he is, he should already have been strictly a 1B/DH by now. Of course the player has to be on board with such a plan. If Harper approached the Phillies about it, that's a very good thing IMO.

Agreed, PASTE. If we can all see it, and now Harper sees it (even if it's spurred by the injury to Hoskins) and he wants to 1B, then that's a good thing all around. For the player and the team (and for all of us ie baseball when looking at a player of Harper's talent.)

Sometimes it's a hard thing to accept - it's not that you **can't** still play whatever position you think you were born (or brought up) to play, but your defensive skills may be better suited to a different position. Or - flat out - your defensive limitations are confining you, but your bat still has value.

When you're elite and 16 (+/-2) it's about do you choose pitching or hitting, and when you're 19 (+/-2) it's about do you stick with SS or move? That happens all the time, but changing positions when you are 30 and in the majors is a way different, deeper conversation.

Special note here to Craig Biggio, who accepted a move from C to 2B as a professional, and Robin Yount who went from SS to CF. But in MLB it has much more often been a move "down" to 1B/DH, and some guys do it, but some guys resist it. Like Mickey, who absolutely would not and could not leave CF, and I think quit early before being labelled as a 1B. And Griffey, who could have been inner-circle, but never even considered offering to move, even to RF, when everyone but him could see it was necessary. Ernie Banks moved to 1B, Musial played a lot of 1B, they still made the HOF.

Good for Harper to consider it, it doesn't mean he's a lesser player at this point, and it might both prolong his career and help his team.

Harper was a catcher as an amateur, right?

Admittedly it's a different conversation but it's not a particularly difficult one usually. Obviously there are cases where it is (Griffey, Manny supposedly didn't care for DH, Sheffield) but there are a bejillion position moves for stars across MLB history. (And of course in many cases, the player's bat simply won't carry a position down the spectrum and they're done.) Certainly over the last 50 years, the "time to DH" conversation has happened again and again.

This move to 1B used to be quite common. For most of the 20th century, guys with long careers at 1B were pretty uncommon, it was in part the DH spot before the DH. I quasi-randomly picked 1975 which happened to be the first year Stargell spent mainly at 1B among other things. Here are some of the "regular" 1Bs that year and their original positions:

Stargell OF, Watson OF, Perez 3B, Rudi OF, Yaz 1B/OF, Scott 1B/3B, Reggie Smith CF, Allen "3B", Bochte OF, C May LF, Montanez CF, E Williams C

Of course some of those guys started at other positions just because somebody had 1B blocked but certainly Rudi, Smith, May and Williams were there cuz they were getting old. We don't seem to see much of that anymore. Guys like Goldschmidt, Freeman, Rizzo, Olson, Alonso, Hosmer, Belt, Votto are gonna be 12-15 year 1Bs ... Vlad too after a brief try at 3B. Most of the others are also young 1B but probably won't stick as long. Most of the rest are just "we have no 1B" 1Bs. The only "old guy that started elsewhere" is really Santana.

And lots of guys get moved off SS too, usually to either 3B or 2B, usually due to age-related defensive decline or just not being very good there in the first place but sometimes just run off the position by a younger, better defender. Harrah, Franco, Tony Batista, eventually Tejada, Petrocelli, John Valentin, Jose Valentin, Hanley, Michael Young, ARod, maybe Story, probably X, etc. Back in the day when trying to unravel the Jeter mystery, from what I saw he was the first poor defensive SS in his 20s allowed to stay at the position after age 30. Of course most of them didn't hit well enough to stick around annyway so maybe they'd have been left there if they'd hit like Jeter.

Of some of your examples, Banks and Yount moved due to injuries -- Banks knees didn't work anymore, Yount couldn't throw anymore. (Yount was also rated as a lousy CF so did he "insist" on playing the glamour OF position? I have no idea.) But Musial played 1B off and on throughout his career -- 114 starts at 25, 149 at 26, 68 at 29, 60 at 30, etc. His old, old man position was primarily LF. All told, a bit over 40% of his 1B starts came age 31 or earlier; 40% of his LF starts came age 39 or later.

And Griffey, who could have been inner-circle, but never even considered offering to move, even to RF, when everyone but him could see it was necessary.

He should have moved earlier, but he eventually did move to right - in his final two years with the Reds, he played 223 games in right field and not a single game in center.

Harper was a catcher as an amateur, right?

Yep. They moved him to the outfield...so he wouldn't get hurt.

Insert joke here.

Are there any MLB outfielders who played the OF in high school? I would think not but that’s probably hard to track.

One of my favorite position switch stories was Ryan Hanigan, who played OF in college and somehow became an above average defensive catcher in the bigs. Doesn’t make much sense…

Are there any MLB outfielders who played the OF in high school? I would think not but that’s probably hard to track.

I think it happens, but some of them were OF/P.

In draft recaps, there are high-school draftees with OF as the listed position, and I don't think they necessarily project position changes at that time.

Yeah, I probably should have thought for a second before posting. I remember Cameron Maybin (for some reason) as a true OF prospect when he was drafted. Griffey Jr. too.

I guess the underlying point is that nearly all MLB players (non-pitchers) are playing a different position than the one they were playing before being drafted. But not quite all.

I'm not sure this is the way I'd go if I were trying to protect him. First base is not that hard (tell 'em Wash) it's a good place to move an aging outfielder. But what's the big advantage of getting him back in the field, rather than DH, at a position where he's not likely to be very good yet? Why not keep him at DH and let Schwarber fake it at 1B as needed and protect your HOF $300 million player at DH as long as you can.

First base is not a physically demanding position at all. You just play whichever guy is the better glove, which would very likely be Harper.

Are there any MLB outfielders who played the OF in high school?

I would think quite a few. Everyone who throws lefty for sure. And I tend to think of the super raw toolsy types as being mostly CF/RF in HS even if they throw righty. It takes some polish to play SS even at that level.

Ernie Banks moved to 1B, Musial played a lot of 1B, they still made the HOF.

Banks moved due to injury. before the knee injury, he was an excellent SS. Musial was actually better in the OF than at first base, but he was adequate at both. When he moved back to the OF at age 39 for the rest of his career because the Cardinals decided that Bill White was no OF, he put up better defensive stats than the previous 3 years at 1B.

I guess the underlying point is that nearly all MLB players (non-pitchers) are playing a different position than the one they were playing before being drafted. But not quite all.

That overstates it by a lot. I imagine most if not all MLB SS and C played those positions in HS. Lefties played either OF or 1B.

This is kind of trivial, but I went searching for guys who, in their mid-30s, remained good hitters but were bad outfield gloves at that point; and yet stayed in the outfield instead of moving to first or to DH. You could run this search lots of ways, but an initial pass pulled up these three. All were on NL rosters throughout, so of course could not regularly DH anyway; though the fact that they could stay on an NL roster is itself interesting. For whatever reason, they just were not first-base material. Alou never played first in the majors; Werth played one career inning at 1B and Griffey (mentioned above as well) played two.



Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 4/14/2023.

There probably isn't anyone in the major leagues who played first base in high school. If you're even the barest minimum caliber of athlete to play in the majors, you played shortstop or center field (and in most cases, also pitcher) in high school, almost invariably.

But what's the big advantage of getting him back in the field, rather than DH, at a position where he's not likely to be very good yet?

if Harper can play the field, Schwarber or Castellanos, neither of whom are strong defenders, can be slotted at DH. With Hoskins out, there is a hole at 1B, and apparently Harper could play the field at that position before he’d be ready for the outfield. That’s still robbing Peter to pay Paul, so perhaps the Phillies will look for another 1B fix by the time Harper can play the outfield.

There probably isn't anyone in the major leagues who played first base in high school. If you're even the barest minimum caliber of athlete to play in the majors, you played shortstop or center field (and in most cases, also pitcher) in high school, almost invariably.

Perhaps the exception that proves the rule, but I read somewhere that Aaron Judge played 1st base in high school, and only moved to the outfield at Fresno State as a freshman because their best returning player was a senior who played first.

First base is not a physically demanding position at all. You just play whichever guy is the better glove, which would very likely be Harper.

But DH is even less demanding.

But I guess maybe they're hoping Harper will be an excellent 1B and have found a new home for the future as he ages.

Yes, I assume they are hoping this will be a long-term position, even easier given Hoskins is a FA at year's end. But I find it interesting that they expect him to hit before being able to take the field and be DH during that time. Perfectly sensible but both the wait for his return plus his DH time gives you time to work out Schwarber at 1B. He's short for the position but that never stopped Matt Stairs. Basically I agree that sticking Harper at DH for the rest of this season is probably the smarter move, then you can work him into a 1B during the offseason.

#15 ... I think your criteria must have been too tight. How did it miss Manny and Sheff just to name two recent examples?

EDIT: Also I'm not sure "mid-30s" and "still hit" are necessary criteria. Young guys will get their chances but probably anybody who's proven themselves a sub-par fielder by age 30 should qualify -- Gary Matthews Sr sprung to this Cub fan's mind immediately. And of course it's even worse if they're still out there regularly as bad fielders and 110 OPS+ hitters. Oh yeah, Bernie's another famous example.

brittle Harper is and what a special hitter

Harper has some negative defensive WAR, so I guess people would say that he's a bad defensive outfielder. But a lot of that may actually be him playing the outfield while hurt, which is a bit of a different thing. He was apparently a pretty good outfielder early on, and his arm was good.

Seems like this is more of a Paul Molitor situation, where Molitor was a passable defensive player (at multiple positions), but kept getting hurt. They moved him to DH mostly to keep him from getting injured, seems like that is the same thing as what may happen with Harper.

How did it miss Manny and Sheff

Yes, definitely: I used 95% OF, and between ages 33-37 those two just DH’d too much. 33-37 is highly arbitrary, too. No method except finding a few guys I wouldn’t have remembered …

the Mick started 130 and 129 games at 1B his final two seasons.

There probably isn't anyone in the major leagues who played first base in high school.

There probably aren't a lot for sure, but there is the occasional Prince Fielders out there. Guys who were just power hitters from day one.

If you're even the barest minimum caliber of athlete to play in the majors, you played shortstop or center field (and in most cases, also pitcher) in high school, almost invariably.

I think most players came from those positions you mentioned, but I do think there are enough right fielders and third baseman who also make it to the majors. (and catchers of course) second and left is less common I imagine. And as you mentioned first is probably the least common, outside of elite power prospects.

Yes, I assume Frank Howard and Frank Thomas were not SS/CF in high school but you never know.

At our Div 3 college, the baseball team was coached by the football coach. He clearly considered football his #1 priority and a reasonable chunk of the team was pretty clearly used to keep some of his football players in shape.** I'd imagine there are a fair number of HSs like that too but I suppose they aren't likely to produce many MLers.

**In his defense, obviously a fair number of the best baseball players were also football players but I knew a couple of guys who quit the team because a lumbering oaf had their playing time and there were likely a few more guys who should have had bench roles by merit who couldn't make the team so coach could make sure Bubba ran some laps and hit the weight room regularly.

EDIT: Dan Vogelbach SS sounds like fun though.

#11 Mickey Mantle hated playing first. Felt it was much harder on his body than LF. He was always likely to retire after 1968 but the Yankees made it clear that he was only going to play first and that solidified the decision for him. He's supposed to have told some people he might have been willing to come back if they'd committed to playing him in left.

re: #26, is there a cite for any of that? My recollection is that the story was that Mantle simply couldn’t throw well enough to play the outfield any more, and was going to retire after the 1966 season until the Yankees approached him about playing 1st, which he did exclusively (other than pinch hitting) in 1967-68. I also recall Mantle saying he enjoyed the opportunity to interact with other players at 1st, although I suppose that could just be him going along with the program in regards to the position switch.

I believe Adam Dunn played SS. . .

I wouldn't be surprised if some lefty throwers played first base in high school. Todd Helton was a 1B/P at the University of Tennessee, although I don't see a listing for his primary position in high school. Does anyone know where Anthony Rizzo played in high school?

Primarily 1B but some pitching and OF

He was always likely to retire after 1968 but the Yankees made it clear that he was only going to play first and that solidified the decision for him.

I dont think this part is correct. Per the los angeles times online site, Mickey actually gave it a go in spring training 1969 but couldnt manage and made his retirement announcement on March 1. You may be thinking about the 1968 expansion draft where the Yanks left Mickey unprotected but thought he might still play. But the Yanks put a lot of pressure on KC and SEA not to take Mickey. Even so they were gonna take him when he telegramed Kaufman the KC owner and told him he would retire if drafted, so they didnt take him.

Im still trying to google the rest of your take upthread. Not sure if that's true or not.

here's a quote from the 1969 press conference:


“Last fall I still thought that I might play another year if I felt well enough in spring training. As the months passed I felt more sure in my own mind that now was the time to end my career as a ballplayer.”

so its kind of ambiguous I guess. Im not sure if he even reported to spring training, or merely waited a few days after spring training began in order to announcement he wasnt going to show there. I think that's what happened.

So it seems at one pt. he still thought he might play and the Yanks thought so too, and maybe KC as well. But he got more doubts as spring training got closer and then decided not to at that pt.

from retro simba site:

"After hitting .237 in his final year, 1968, Mantle decided he was finished, but the Yankees and the players’ union asked him to delay an announcement until spring training, according to the Leavy book. The Yankees wanted to use his popularity to sell tickets and the union wanted to use his clout in labor negotiations.

"In the Nov. 17, 1968, New York Daily News, columnist Dick Young broke the story of Mantle’s intention to retire and reported, “Official announcement will be withheld until Mickey joins the Yankees at their training camp in March.”

the site also says Mantle reported to the Yanks on the evening of Feb 28 so he didnt really suit up for spring training.

****

Most of the articles seem to say that Mick was intent on getting to the 500 HR milestone (which he reached in 67) so Im guessing he was willing to play 1b to get there. Not sure how he felt about playing there in 1968.

The Yankees wanted to use his popularity to sell tickets and the union wanted to use his clout in labor negotiations.

This makes no sense. (A) What “clout” would any individual player have in labor negotiations, especially one who would clearly be retiring soon, even if they didn’t know it was immediately, and (B) if the Yankees knew, did they just agree not to inform the other teams or the negotiators?

My recollection is consistent with the quote in #33 - the Yankees wanted any announcement of Mantle’s retirement delayed until after the deadline for season ticket renewals. Since neither the team nor Mantle wanted to say that aloud, the cover story, as set forth in #32, was that Mantle hoped to play, but just wasn’t able to go when spring training arrived.

I realize that players may sugar coat things to make them look better, but this is what Mantle wrote about his retirement decision in his 1985 autobiography. He says that he basically made the decision to retire after the 1968 season, but wanted to give it one last go in Spring Training 1969 to see if he could feel well enough to play. As it turned out, a few days of light running before Spring Training actually started were enough to convince him.:

"The following year I had to convince myself that it was really over. So I went down to Fort Lauderdale a few days ahead of the regulars and tried to work out - just a little running - but I couldn't do it. I was convinced. There was no putting off my retirement."

What “clout” would any individual player have in labor negotiations, especially one who would clearly be retiring soon, even if they didn’t know it was immediately,

Its hard to say, but its also hard to imagine how naive and unorganized mlb players were at this point in time. At some pt. (not sure the date) in late Feb 69 Marvin Miller called for a boycott (instead of calling it a strike and the inevitable comparisons to Communism) and a day later Mays and Mantle both gave it their approval. The NYY player rep, Steve Hamilton asked Mantle to delay his retirement announcement and Mick agreed. Its hard to know how much the moral support of two well respected players would mean but apparently someone thought it was worth it. And really was every MLB player actually keeping up on Mantles retirement plans? No one was really sure it seems if Mantle was really going to retire. After that a lot of others stars (Kaline, Seaver, Yaz, McCOvey) would also show support. It was apparently a big deal because the owner's were counting on a dynamic that still exists today: would the rich players really give support to stuff that mostly helps guys making 10k a year?

Here is a link:


https://books.google.com/books?id=2NE3DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=mickey+mantle+1969+strike+labor+union&source=bl&ots=VO2lKDS0WI&sig=ACfU3U0XIlb0zQAUG91YfbNynD8u4-jNIA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwielpn5mq_-AhW9MlkFHQyLDXc4FBDoAXoECAQQAw#v=onepage&q=mickey mantle 1969 strike labor union&f=false


But I guess its really open to some question because sources also say that the NYY deadline for season tickets was end of Feb (I think?) and so Mick was still doing the NYY a favor anyhow. Its interesting that Dick Young pretty much called it right down to the day so maybe that was the plan the whole time and Mick had nothing to lose by promising that to Hamilton.

Player G Rbat Rfield Age Pos
Moises Alou 700 102 -31 33-37 *79DH/8
Jayson Werth 588 61 -34 33-37 *97HD8
Ken Griffey Jr. 517 58 -58 33-37 89HD

On a per 150 G basis, that's -6.6, -8.7, and -16. Only Griffey would have been more valuable at DH. DH is -17.5 runs on positional adjustment, RF/LF is -7.5. If a corner OF is only -5 to -8 runs per season, leaving him in the field is fine, unless he's blocking a better, younger player.