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Wednesday, February 12, 2020

‘Philosophical differences’ played major role in Joe Maddon’s split with Cubs

While talking to ESPN recently, ex-Cubs manager Joe Maddon made some of the most enlightening comments yet on the end of his time in Chicago.

Speaking on why things ended, Maddon didn’t hold back when discussing how things dissolved.

“There was just, you can say, philosophical differences,” he said. “But he and I are still good friends. And I like the man a lot. It was just time for him to get someone else and time for me to work somewhere else. That’s all. A five-year shelf life in Chicago is almost equivalent to five to 10 somewhere else. At the end of the day, man, there’s nothing to lament there. That was the most successful five years that the Cubs have ever had.”

Joe Maddon is a prominent devotee of Sextus Empiricus, while Theo Epstein prefers the work of Plotinus.

 

QLE Posted: February 12, 2020 at 01:41 AM | 16 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs, joe maddon, philosophy

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   1. Scott Ross Posted: February 12, 2020 at 07:59 AM (#5923767)
That was the most successful five years that the Cubs have ever had.


Someone's gotta be that guy, why not me? The most successful five years that the Cubs have ever had was from 1906 to 1910, when they went 530-235 (.693) with four pennants and two World Series titles.
   2. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: February 12, 2020 at 08:22 AM (#5923769)
As far as I know, the Tinker-Evers-Chance era Cubs still hold the records for wins over every period from 2 years to 7 years, and probably always will.
   3. Brian C Posted: February 12, 2020 at 09:09 AM (#5923778)
Theo's response to this doesn't exactly disabuse the notion that he wanted a yes-man as Maddon's replacement.
   4. Zonk is Dominating the Battlespace Posted: February 12, 2020 at 09:19 AM (#5923785)
I'm sure every GM/yeah-whatever wants a yes-man...

Ultimately, I still suspect it was a simple matter of Joe being the highest paid manager in baseball and recent slides aside, it would be awfully hard to negotiate an extension that involved a pay cut... Yeah, yeah - I know Joe took a lower salary to go back to LAA, but still.

   5. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 12, 2020 at 09:22 AM (#5923787)
Plotinus >>>> Sextus Empiricus.
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 12, 2020 at 09:22 AM (#5923788)
As far as I know, the Tinker-Evers-Chance era Cubs still hold the records for wins over every period from 2 years to 7 years, and probably always will.


So much for Maddon the empiricist! Boom, roasted.
   7. . Posted: February 12, 2020 at 09:35 AM (#5923796)
Someone's gotta be that guy, why not me? The most successful five years that the Cubs have ever had was from 1906 to 1910, when they went 530-235 (.693) with four pennants and two World Series titles.


Reasonable people take statements like Maddon's with the implicit, "In the Open Division Era" inherently embedded therein. No one really cares about the Whiteboy Cracker Era. #### like that was barely even sport and is contrary to pretty much every standard of ethics and decency.
   8. Zonk is Dominating the Battlespace Posted: February 12, 2020 at 10:00 AM (#5923801)
Someone's gotta be that guy, why not me? The most successful five years that the Cubs have ever had was from 1906 to 1910, when they went 530-235 (.693) with four pennants and two World Series titles.


Yeah - the only year they didn't make the WS was 1909. They won 104 games - but finished 6 games behind the 110 game winning Pirates.

Jolly Cholly Grimm's first term as Cubs skipper was pretty good, too. Overshadowed by the Gashouse Gang in St Louis that preceded them, but 2 WS in 5 years and a contender every other year...
   9. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: February 12, 2020 at 11:08 AM (#5923828)
Maddon on the day he and Theo announced their conscious uncoupling:
“This ‘philosophical differences’ crap that’s been written about is not true,” Maddon said. “It’s just not true. You have to follow these false narratives all the time and I gotta answer to them. And it’s just not true.”

At the time, a bunch of people - here included - argued Maddon was really fired (well, his contract was up, and it was the Cubs' decision more than his to not stick around). Maddon seems to be saying it was at least as much his decision. Which is totally fine.

But according to ESPN, Maddon said he realized he didn’t want to return to Chicago before the season had even ended.

“That would conflict with some of the things that he and his agent were saying and doing towards the end of the season,” Epstein said on Tuesday. “It doesn’t mean it’s not true. And if that’s how he feels, especially with the benefit of hindsight, then I’m not going to dispute it. But that doesn’t really reflect the conversations we were having. Up until the very, very end, the last day or two when we talked about it just being best for everybody.”


Maddon loves to hear himself talk and does not like to admit to his faults or shortcomings - to the extent he can talk himself into trouble because he never thinks about not saying what he's thinking.

I believe, and think, both Joe and Theo thought it was time to move on and probably came to that decision independently, and mutually, but neither really wanted to be the one to say it outloud. Now that Maddon's in his new digs, it suits him to frame it mainly as his decision and put everything that went wrong at Theo's feet.

Whatever, I wish him well. I think he'll be good with the Angels.
   10. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: February 12, 2020 at 12:10 PM (#5923858)
Joe Maddon is a prominent devotee of Sextus Empiricus


...and consequently has no opinion on the cause of his split from the Cubs. (And has doubts about it even happening.)
   11. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: February 12, 2020 at 12:17 PM (#5923860)
Dude is likely right that with a sports team 5 years is the shelf life unless management totally turns over the team every few years. Messages get stale. Hard to keep so many relationships healthy or at least ok.
   12. Zonk is Dominating the Battlespace Posted: February 12, 2020 at 12:45 PM (#5923865)
Dude is likely right that with a sports team 5 years is the shelf life unless management totally turns over the team every few years. Messages get stale. Hard to keep so many relationships healthy or at least ok.


That's one thing - even up till the end - that I put in Maddon's favor.

He never "lost" the club. The players - especially the core guys - loved him and never seemed to stop loving him. Even when the team collapsed the last couple weeks - Rizzo and Baez were both banged up and both hobbled back rather than just packing it in.

I've seen many a Cubs collapse, where the clubhouse devolves into sniping and factions and bitterness.... and that never seemed to happen. The Cubs collapsed over the last 2 weeks mainly because Kimbrel picked the most inopportune time to maximally #### the bed.
   13. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: February 12, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5923868)
12--good points. Rizzo out there was insane. Saw the photos on Twitter and he was like some union soldier type #### trying to play.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: February 12, 2020 at 03:31 PM (#5923935)
Maddon loves to hear himself talk and does not like to admit to his faults or shortcomings - to the extent he can talk himself into trouble because he never thinks about not saying what he's thinking.

Is that a bad thing? Asking for a friend.
   15. Walt Davis Posted: February 12, 2020 at 11:14 PM (#5924058)
If the philosophical differences were:

Joe: I think we need to upgrade the roster
Theo: We're going to spin our wheels

then put me down on Joe's side.
   16. Red Voodooin Posted: February 13, 2020 at 01:14 AM (#5924074)
I believe, and think, both Joe and Theo thought it was time to move on and probably came to that decision independently, and mutually, but neither really wanted to be the one to say it outloud. Now that Maddon's in his new digs, it suits him to frame it mainly as his decision and put everything that went wrong at Theo's feet.


I think the real decision was made at the end of the 2018 season when he was not offered an extension. If they had offered him a reasonable extension then, I'm certain he would have signed. The Cubs appeared to reach their conclusion first, and likely that factors into Joe reaching a similar conclusion.

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