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Thursday, August 01, 2019

Pirates have an anger problem

Tuesday night’s benches-clearing brawl between the Pirates and Reds was not the first time this year that the two clubs had a disagreement. In April, the Pirates didn’t like that Derek Dietrich admired his home run, so Chris Archer threw behind Dietrich the next time he came to the plate. The benches emptied, leading to one of the best baseball pictures ever taken:

....

The two incidents are actually part of a longer trend for the Pirates in which their thirst for revenge has escalated into benches-clearing incidents. Here’s a likely incomplete list of benches-clearing incidents involving the Pirates dating back to 2015. Each date links to a post we wrote about the incident so you can read the whole story.

...

I searched the posts we’ve made here since the start of the 2015 regular season, using the phrases “benches clear,” “benches empty,” and “tempers flare,” which are common phrases used for such incidents. With the usual disclaimer that this is very likely an incomplete list based on an incomplete methodology, I was able to find 45 benches-clearing incidents over the last five years. The Pirates were involved in nine of them — 20 percent. The Rangers have been involved in eight such incidents, followed by the Cubs and Giants at 7, and the Royals at six. If you set the cutoff arbitrarily to May 30, 2018, the Pirates have been involved in five of 14 incidents (~36 percent).

So, any theories on why this might be the case?

QLE Posted: August 01, 2019 at 03:31 AM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: anger, benches clearing, pirates

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   1. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: August 01, 2019 at 07:25 AM (#5867236)
any theories on why this might be the case? I don't know how you people do east coast time. sucks.

But other posters have pointed out that with Searage and Hurdle the Pirates pitch inside so they are almost always among the leaders in hit batters. Lead NL right now. 4th last season only 7 off lead. Below league average in '17 but 4th again in '16. Lead league in '15. So pretty solid indicator of an approach, right? Guys getting hit are more likely to get mad and getting mad being guys and athletes and competitive that is a mix for the fake punches they throw at each, most of the time anyway.

I watch Hurdle a lot because of the Brewers and that seems like one angry old man. Dude is always ####### ######## at someone not on his team. So he has the angry gene maybe. Does that rub off on the players so they are more likely to be confrontational? Seems likely.

Ballpark is nice though. But other than that, it's Pittsburgh. So there's that too.

   2. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 01, 2019 at 07:44 AM (#5867237)
The Reds charged the field both times this year. Well, in the recent one, the Reds pitcher charged the Pirate dugout.

The Pirates try to get everyone to pitch inside always. During their little run of good teams, they led the league in HBP every season, a couple of times by a very big margin. Charlie Morton was a big part of that - he moved on and led the AL in HBP 2017-18. After a couple "down" years, the Pirates are back at the top of HBP, but with an unexceptionable number.

Edit: several Cokes to Master, though without the snark.

   3. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: August 01, 2019 at 07:54 AM (#5867239)
2--I like Pittsburgh man. Just having some fun.
   4. bfan Posted: August 01, 2019 at 08:04 AM (#5867240)
( leads the pack, but there are some close followers there, and, given the admitted softness of the methodology, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place would certainly seem within the margin of error. That the top 5 teams (16% of the total) as stated above have been involved in 41% of the incidents is a pretty interesting way to look at it too.
   5. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 01, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5867243)
Hurdle likes to retaliate. Douche.
   6. bunyon Posted: August 01, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5867259)
A: They’re PIRATES. It’s in their nature to be angry.

B: how can we get the pirates and rangers to play. Preferably in dallas, on turf, in August?
   7. Walt Davis Posted: August 01, 2019 at 09:43 AM (#5867264)
several Cokes to Master, though without the snark.

Ick. Coke without snark is Tab.
   8. Howie Menckel Posted: August 01, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5867268)
AARGHH!
   9. shoelesjoe Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:07 AM (#5867276)
I’m betting the posted list of bench clearing brawls is missing a bunch. I know it doesn’t include the Machado vs Ventura (RIP) kerfuffle from August 2016. Heck, according to that list those Royals were involved in four brawls just in 2015 (three of ‘em in a two week span early in the season), and it wouldn’t surprise me if all of them were triggered by Ventura in some way. He should have been a Pirate.
   10. jmurph Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:28 AM (#5867284)
They remind me of late Showalter-era Baltimore. This is something that happens to losing teams who spin out of control because they know they're not going anywhere. The play by play guys get in on it, the fans get in on it. Probably they have to fire some people first, but it seems like the only real solution is actually building a better team.
   11. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:44 AM (#5867288)
Hurdle actually has long had the reputation of being a super positive-energy kind of guy, not a dick or a bully at all. But it's no great leap of speculation to suspect he knows he's getting fired sometime in the next few months and is coming unwound a little bit.

The Pirates accidentally caught lightning in a bottle for a few years, but it wasn't ownership's fault. They've spent the past couple years drifting slowly, inevitably back to being the Pirates, and inasmuch as Bob Nutting is still young-ish, it's unlikely they'll be competitive again in the next 20 years.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5867291)
The Pirates accidentally caught lightning in a bottle for a few years, but it wasn't ownership's fault. They've spent the past couple years drifting slowly, inevitably back to being the Pirates, and inasmuch as Bob Nutting is still young-ish, it's unlikely they'll be competitive again in the next 20 years.

Of course this is totally the Pirates own fault. The gap between large market and small market payrolls has narrowed considerably.

It used to be Yankees/Dodgers/Red Sox $200M, small markets $50M. With the luxury tax, the large markets are still at $200M, but now even the smallest markets can afford $100M+ payrolls.
   13. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:54 AM (#5867292)
Or, alternatively, an owner who doesn't actually care whether his team wins 100 games or loses 100 can happily pocket all that revenue sharing money.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5867294)
Or, alternatively, an owner who doesn't actually care whether his team wins 100 games or loses 100 can happily pocket all that revenue sharing money.

Right. That's exactly what I mean by it being the Pirates fault. Ownership doesn't care if they win or not.
   15. . Posted: August 01, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5867310)
but now even the smallest markets can afford $100M+ payrolls.


You're way too smart to keep saying this.
   16. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5867311)
In the past, as Rennie notes, it was mostly that the Pirates had an organizational philosophy that emphasized the inner half of the plate, plus some guys who were kind of wild in general.

There's a disturbing trend this year, though, of the Pirates being the "fun police" and throwing at guys for posing or flipping bats or whatever, and I wish they'd cut that #### out.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5867322)
You're way too smart to keep saying this.

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm absolutely right.

2018 year-end payroll (40-man) per COTs

CLE $150M
MIL $121M
KC $132M
OAK $ 96M
CIN $111M
TB $ 95M
PIT $104M

for comparison
NYY $193M
BOS $239M
LAD $195M

15 years ago, the top team were outspending the bottom 4:1, now it's not even 2:1.



   18. manchestermets Posted: August 01, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5867330)
You're right in general, but $239M is more than twice $95M.
   19. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 01, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5867332)
There's a disturbing trend this year, though, of the Pirates being the "fun police" and throwing at guys for posing or flipping bats or whatever, and I wish they'd cut that #### out.
In fairness, Dietrich is a total jackass. Not that that warrants throwing at him, but it's not "fun policing."
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 12:07 PM (#5867336)
You're right in general, but $239M is more than twice $95M.

I was averaging top and bottom groups. The big markets average $209M, the small markets $115M.
   21. The Duke Posted: August 01, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5867343)
We have not spent enough time on Amir Garrett’s heroic fight. It was like Pickett’s charge at Gettysburg. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’m still in awe. I loved the conversation on the mound right before he goes where pitching coach comes out and Garrett is screaming into his glove that he’s going to kill every Pirate if it’s the last thing he ever does, he tells the pitching coach to get someone up in the bullpen (because he knows he’s done), gives the ball to the coach, and the coach pats him on the ass as he charges into battle. That was epic. He should get $100,000 bonus
   22. jmurph Posted: August 01, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5867353)
We have not spent enough time on Amir Garrett’s heroic fight. It was like Pickett’s charge at Gettysburg. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’m still in awe. I loved the conversation on the mound right before he goes where pitching coach comes out and Garrett is screaming into his glove that he’s going to kill every Pirate if it’s the last thing he ever does, he tells the pitching coach to get someone up in the bullpen (because he knows he’s done), gives the ball to the coach, and the coach pats him on the ass as he charges into battle. That was epic. He should get $100,000 bonus

100% agree. I think sports fights are generally really stupid AND ALSO this was the greatest thing I've seen on the field all year.
   23. Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K Posted: August 01, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5867382)
Yeah, it was terribly wrong but so incredibly right at the same time. This was Izzy Alcantara level stuff. Just \"#### it, this isn't a baseball fight, this is war."
   24. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 01, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5867410)
We have not spent enough time on Amir Garrett’s heroic fight.
I’d have been more impressed if he had managed to lay waste to the mob of hooligans he was dealing with, in the manner of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. I guess with the current emphasis on bullpen arms, there’s no roster room for such a specialist. Maybe with the September call-ups?
   25. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 01, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5867414)
But it's no great leap of speculation to suspect he knows he's getting fired sometime in the next few months and is coming unwound a little bit.

The Pirates accidentally caught lightning in a bottle for a few years, but it wasn't ownership's fault. They've spent the past couple years drifting slowly, inevitably back to being the Pirates, and inasmuch as Bob Nutting is still young-ish, it's unlikely they'll be competitive again in the next 20 years.


Nutting has already talked about his desire to pass the team on to his daughters.

It's hard to imagine that Hurdle (or Huntington) will be fired anytime soon. They both have two full years left on contracts they signed in 2017, after two consecutive disappointing seasons.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 01, 2019 at 02:10 PM (#5867422)
I’d have been more impressed if he had managed to lay waste to the mob of hooligans he was dealing with, in the manner of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee.
I was going to say the Pirates probably wouldn't have had the courtesy to stand back and fight him only one at a time like the movie bad guys do, but then I thought about more, and given Baseball 2019, it might have gone something like this:

*Kela starts fighting Garrett;
*Searage calls time out, talks to Kela for a while; Liriano starts taking warm-up punches off to the side.
*Kela nods along, digs back in to fight Garrett, but now Garrett isn't quite sure what his plan of attack should be, so he calls Barnhart over to discuss.
*They agree on a strategy and the fight resumes. Garrett dispatches Kela with an uppercut.
*Liriano steps up to fight, but Hurdle wants another righty, so he tells Stallings to (fittingly) go talk to Liriano to buy some time. Musgrove starts stretching.
*Garrett is ready to fight Liriano, but Musgrove is not yet loose, so Hurdle calls for the umps to review Garrett's punch sequence with Kela, just because he can.
*Umps predictably uphold Garrett's knockout of Kela, but now Musgrove is ready, so he steps up.

Etc. etc. etc.
   27. The Duke Posted: August 01, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5867487)
If no one has seen the JOMBOY twitter account YouTube on Garrett’s charge it’s highly entertaining and informative and has a hysterical clip of PUIG striking a pose after a called strike
   28. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 01, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5867495)
   29. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 01, 2019 at 04:24 PM (#5867498)
We have not spent enough time on Amir Garrett’s heroic fight. It was like Pickett’s charge at Gettysburg. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’m still in awe. I loved the conversation on the mound right before he goes where pitching coach comes out and Garrett is screaming into his glove that he’s going to kill every Pirate if it’s the last thing he ever does, he tells the pitching coach to get someone up in the bullpen (because he knows he’s done), gives the ball to the coach, and the coach pats him on the ass as he charges into battle. That was epic. He should get $100,000 bonus


This is hilarious and I agree.
   30. winnipegwhip Posted: August 01, 2019 at 05:26 PM (#5867518)
I think this is just carry over from Dock Ellis plunking Morgan, Perez and Bench.
   31. RoyalFlush Posted: August 01, 2019 at 05:50 PM (#5867527)
Amir Garrett was also ejected from an NCAA Hoops game for leaving the bench during a fight with Notre Dame.

True two sport athlete.
   32. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 01, 2019 at 06:01 PM (#5867530)
Joining any sort of mob violence against Notre Dame athletics should never be punished.
   33. Tin Angel Posted: August 01, 2019 at 06:24 PM (#5867535)
If I'm Manfred I give them six months of weekly group therapy.
   34. Sunday silence Posted: August 01, 2019 at 08:59 PM (#5867579)
Facking Hurdle should have been fired long ago. He doesnt seem like much tactically. Maybe he is good with player development or something.

I had not yet seen the video but that was epic. what exactly precipitated that?
   35. Pirate Joe Posted: August 01, 2019 at 11:48 PM (#5867607)
There's a disturbing trend this year, though, of the Pirates being the "fun police" and throwing at guys for posing or flipping bats or whatever, and I wish they'd cut that #### out.



They threw at Dietrich earlier this season. Isn't once enough?

   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 02, 2019 at 09:15 AM (#5867629)
They threw at Dietrich earlier this season. Isn't once enough?

Did they actually throw at him, or did they just pitch inside? Dietrich absolutely refuses to get out of the way. Dude's got more HBP than singles.
   37. Pirate Joe Posted: August 02, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5867923)
Did they actually throw at him, or did they just pitch inside?


Well the ball went behind his back, so either they were throwing at him or Chris Archer was really, really wild.

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