Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, December 05, 2019

Pirates owner Bob Nutting not sweating $17M in dead money | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

When do they build him a statue?

Jim Furtado Posted: December 05, 2019 at 05:47 AM | 9 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pay site, pirates

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 05, 2019 at 09:21 AM (#5905830)
Pay wall and no excerpt. Just bark at the word "Nutting."
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 05, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5905833)
Pay wall

I can access it.
   3. jingoist Posted: December 05, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5905903)
As a 60+ year fan of the Bucs I remain confused about the various strategies and outcomes undertaken by small market teams management.
Could any primates shed some light on successful practices such as those taken by the Royals back in the early 201x timeframe that enabled them to reach, then win a WS versus the briefest flirtation of the postseason by Pittsburgh a few years ago?
How much of the success and failure is driven by the level of ignorance of team ownership versus team management?
The once great Orioles team has been slowly disintegrating before my eyes and I hold the Angelos family primarily responsible for that outcome.
Is it identical with Nutting and the Pirates?
   4. Walt Davis Posted: December 05, 2019 at 04:17 PM (#5906032)
The nuts you want to crack are the Rays and, to a lesser extent, the A's. They rarely suck and they often compete and both manage to do it usually without any young stars (the current A's have Chapman of course)** and a roster that's in pretty constant flux.

The Royals were mainly a mix of "suck long enough and eventually some draft picks will pay off", a couple of good trades, leveraging what you've got and some good ol' fashioned luck. In their first WS year, they weren't even a particularly good team -- 89 wins and the WC on a +27 run differential -- that got hot at the right time.

Perez, Hosmer, Moose and Gordon came together. Escobar and Cain came in the Greinke trade and they probably helped Cain become a better player. Myers/Odorizzi (and Mike Montgomery) for Shields/Davis could have blown up in their face even though they were right about Myers, saved in large part because, although they moved Davis back to the rotation at first, they discovered he was a dominant reliever. Add in Holland and Herrera (and a re-habbed Madson) and they were smart enough to realize they had something special and took advantage of that in their strategy.

The Pirates' run of relevance (more regular season success in terms of wins and more trips to the postseason than the Royals) was a bit more the "lotto" model centered on McCutchen having a HoF peak with major assistance from Marte and eventually Cole. Still, as the Angels show us every year, you've still got to surround that with competence.

In short, the key to small-market success was Edinson Volquez. :-) He gave the 2014 Pirates 190 innings of 118 ERA+ and in 2015 he gave the Royals 200 innings of 118 ERA+.

Since 2015, the Pirates have won 304 games and the Royals just 278 so it's not clear the Royals ever figured out something the Pirates didn't, they just got hot at the right time, were lucky enough to win their division on 95 wins (while the Pirates finished 2nd in 94 and 98 win years) and maybe having one dominant area (bullpen) helps in short series.

** I need to see Semien repeat before I'll put him into the star category.
   5. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 05, 2019 at 04:26 PM (#5906037)
Pay wall and no excerpt.


FYI: You can read P-G links in an incognito browser window.
   6. Sunday silence Posted: December 05, 2019 at 04:38 PM (#5906050)

Since 2015, the Pirates have won 304 games and the Royals just 278 so it's not clear the Royals ever figured out something the Pirates didn't, they just got hot at the right time, were lucky enough to win their division on 95 wins (while the Pirates finished 2nd in 94 and 98 win years) and maybe having one dominant area (bullpen) helps in short series.


Not to diminish anything Walt said, obviously that was insightful, but there's another pt. I think should be addressed: The Pirates seem to make almost no moves at the deadline at all. Other than getting Ike Davis or some sh!t some like that. They make no moves at all.

It gets really annoying when you see pre season predictions such as fangraphs projected WAR and you think maybe the Pirates can compete this year. And they sort of do, but then they throw in the towel in AUg and make no moves so whatever predictions we thought might make sense, and sort of did, but there was no reinforcements brought in at the crucial time and the whole season sucked.
   7. Walt Davis Posted: December 05, 2019 at 04:39 PM (#5906051)
On the owner vs FO competence question ... presumably incompetent ownership is more likely to hire incompetent FO than other owners. But it seems clear that sustained smaller-market success is primarily a function of draft/sign, develop, identify (i.e. know which bits of yours to trade and which bits of their to obtain). And always be there when teams are just giving stuff away (Tommy Pham, Travis d'Arnaud).

In ways, both the Royals and Pirates got "lucky". The Royals were a pretty big mess when Moore took over. They had the minor-league talent but it wasn't clear those guys were gonna pay off. If Moore hadn't built that short-term success, the team would be a travesty ... and his draft record is terrible with only one decent player drafted in the last several years and that guy doesn't play for the Royals (Manea). The Pirates might have been even more moribund when Huntington took over. Their recent drafts have been better than the Royals but most of them are playing for other teams.

It's just incredibly hard to take over a mess like the O's. There's no talent in the majors, not a lot in the minors, the team has ignored international signings for years. That almost had to be Angelos refusing to invest in anything with a future. I suspect it was a financial decision -- sooner or later the MASN payout was gonna come, he might as well milk it for as long as he could while ensuring the bit would be minimal when it came by having no commitments. Still, the Chris Davis contract had to be a mutual screw-up between GM and owner. (Note, I was about as close to a "defender" of that contract as anybody but it never looked good.)
   8. Buck Coats Posted: December 05, 2019 at 05:12 PM (#5906070)
The nuts you want to crack are the Rays and, to a lesser extent, the A's. They rarely suck and they often compete and both manage to do it usually without any young stars (the current A's have Chapman of course)** and a roster that's in pretty constant flux.


Hasn't really helped them much at the box office, though. Well, that's not quite fair to Oakland, they did outdraw Pittsburgh and KC by 2k per game last year.
   9. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 05, 2019 at 05:47 PM (#5906082)
The Pirates seem to make almost no moves at the deadline at all. Other than getting Ike Davis or some sh!t some like that. They make no moves at all.


The Pirates actually made some extremely impactful deadline deals during the Huntington era, such as Derrek Lee in 2011, Marlon Byrd in 2013, and J.A. Happ in 2015. They just generally didn't pay a huge price for them (well, until Archer, anyway).

Also, Ike Davis wasn't a deadline pickup - they traded for him in April.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogFormer Astros pitcher Dallas Keuchel apologizes for 2017 cheating scandal
(9 - 9:21am, Jan 26)
Last: The Duke

NewsblogCardinals' speed-based style thrilled baseball fans in the 1980s, but would it work today?
(3 - 9:16am, Jan 26)
Last: SoSH U at work

NewsblogLarry Walker’s Hall plaque to feature Rockies cap, not Expos
(40 - 9:15am, Jan 26)
Last: SoSH U at work

NewsblogJustin Turner on Astros' 2017 World Series Title: 'It's Hard to Feel They Earned It'
(2 - 8:56am, Jan 26)
Last: flournoy

NewsblogFelipe Alou: Mets manager Luis Rojas won't cheat baseball
(7 - 8:41am, Jan 26)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogCraig Calcaterra’s Imaginary Hall of Fame Ballot
(76 - 8:20am, Jan 26)
Last: bachslunch

NewsblogOT - Soccer Thread - January, 2020
(268 - 7:42am, Jan 26)
Last: AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther

Newsblog'There are better things to come:' Canada's Taillon upbeat during Tommy John rehab
(1 - 7:23am, Jan 26)
Last: Rennie's Tenet

NewsblogMLB rumors: Former Giants GM Bobby Evans interviewed for Astros job
(1 - 3:10am, Jan 26)
Last: Bhaakon

NewsblogRyan Thibs’ Hall of Fame Tracker
(1455 - 2:29am, Jan 26)
Last: Barnaby Jones

NewsblogHe’s ‘Nat’ done yet: Virginia Beach’s Ryan Zimmerman reportedly signs one-year deal with Washington
(18 - 12:53am, Jan 26)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogReport: Umpires agree to MLB's test plans for automated strike zone
(118 - 12:43am, Jan 26)
Last: Barnaby Jones

NewsblogRed Sox, Padres have reportedly discussed Mookie Betts trade that includes a surprising name
(48 - 11:17pm, Jan 25)
Last: Jose Is Absurdly Chatty

NewsblogRockies’ Trevor Story agrees to two-year, $27.5 million contract
(4 - 11:03pm, Jan 25)
Last: flournoy

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread 2020
(665 - 10:18pm, Jan 25)
Last: calming him down with his 57i66135

Page rendered in 0.2782 seconds
46 querie(s) executed