That's precisely the point! Despite similar overall value, the better pitcher stayed in the rotation while the superior hitter moved to the pen and became a curiosity: A mop up man who can occasionally pinch hit.

I've never seen a punter play quarterback, but I have seen a quarterback punt, and it was tremendously entertaining.

For all of the talk about balance and symmetry, why isn't anyone arguing that players should be asked to do nearly everything? Why not cut rosters in half? Little League teams do OK with just 12-14 players. Sometimes a guy plays third base, sometimes he pitches, sometimes he catches. I mean, if you really want to be pure about it, why set aside an entire class of players as simply pitchers?

You're missing the real argument. It's not about spreadsheets tallies. It's about what those tallies support, which is that pitchers are simply not evaluated one whit on their ability to hit. It simply is not a factor. It has absolutely no basis on their job security. The numbers simply back that position up.

It's about what those tallies support, which is that pitchers are simply not evaluated one whit on their ability to hit. It simply is not a factor. It has absolutely no basis on their job security. The numbers simply back that position up.

Reiterating: last year, NL pitchers as a whole had a .312 OPS. In the entire history of baseball, no position player ever had a season of as many as 150 PA with an OPS that low.

I'm hitting the real argument. People care more about the spreadsheets being out of balance than they do having to watch pitchers hit for about 7 minutes per game.

I doubt it. I also doubt that the numbers support a claim that NL ball is more appealing. Therefore we must conclude that the 20 people in this thread who care are the only people who care.

Yeah, those seven points of OPS that separate it from Bill Bergen's 1909 are a hugely meaningful distinction.

a skill that has absolutely no bearing on his value as a player

51. Jim Furtado Posted: April 27, 2015 at 11:09 AM (#4941133)
OK, so how many people don't watch any games with the DH? No interleague games at AL parks. No World Series games at AL parks.

I've never seen a punter play quarterback

A punter threw for a touchdown during this year's NFL playoffs. It was a pretty big deal when it happened, as it helped the Seahawks come from behind in the 2nd half against the Packers.

A DH can be used, but only if they're on PEDs and are registered republicans.

I didn't claim NL ball was more appealing. Just that if you and your wife really don't like the DH, you have a viewing option that lets you avoid it.

This is a rather dumb argument. It's like suggesting to people that if they really don't like watching commercials when they watch CSI they can just watch a movie on HBO instead.

Pitchers hitting are commercials. Some people enjoy watching them. Most people get up to go to the bathroom or get a snack.

Yes, #208, it's really just a technicality. If 2014 pitchers as a whole were worse than every non-pitcher in baseball history except one, instead of being worse than literally every non-pitcher in baseball history, the argument would be ruined.

Pitchers hitting are commercials. Some people enjoy watching them. Most people get up to go to the bathroom or get a snack.

there are some guys who can steal 80 bases a year and others who cannot get any. Isnt this a sufficient disparity comparable to the hitting of pitchers vs position players?

I'm hitting the real argument. People care more about the spreadsheets being out of balance than they do having to watch pitchers hit for about 7 minutes per game. (Pitchers don't hit five times per game; they typically hit 2-3). If they cared about the actual hitting part, they'd be trying to explain the aesthetic differences between watching pitchers hit, and slow, shitty baserunners run the bases, or slow, shitty fielders bungle around like oafs. But instead they're simply turning to the spreadsheets and prattling on about the aggregate differences the spreadsheets reflect.

Actually, they are still worse than literally everyone. Bergen's .319 OPS was good for a 1 OPS+. NL pitchers last year were -10.

there are some guys who can steal 80 bases a year and others who cannot get any. Isnt this a sufficient disparity comparable to the hitting of pitchers vs position players?

The difference is that if I watch a National League baseball game, I am going to see somewhere between 3 and 8 plate appearances where the batter has no idea what he is doing. This isn't simply a matter of trying and being bad; this is complete ineptitude. If the batter is not trying to give an out away, he is lucky to make hard contact.

Furthermore, this is by design. The batter in question has not made any sort of attempt to improve in his capacity as a hitter. In fact, he is instructed not to...

Not everyone has to hit in your world.

Moreover, no team in a high-leverage situation is going to let their pitcher hit.

Who cares about "pitchers as a whole?" That's another fussy, spreadsheety argument.

The anti-DH argument basically boils down to "Pitchers should hit because all fielders should hit."

The problem is that

Eight? Can someone look up the last time a pitcher batted more than three times in a game? Or was something else meant?

And the pro-DH side basically boils down to "I don't like watching bad hitters try to do something useful."

Not merely bad hitters. Didi Gregorious is a bad hitter. Late career Omar Vizquel was a bad hitter. Pitchers are historically awful hitters. Only the very best of them rise to the level of merely bad.

But regardless where one stands on Farrell's choice (and we gave the issue ample coverage), the one thing that choice can't really be described as is not interesting.

They get Gold Gloves and everything.

Not only are pitchers "in the same class as fielders," pitchers are in fact ... fielders. They get Gold Gloves and everything.

Oh, duh. Been a long day.

It was "interesting" in the same way that managers bunting in the first inning is "interesting."

Well, your confusion is still warranted, because he said between 3-8 PAs, and if we're talking about both teams then obviously it'll be more than 3.

Not "just like" shortstops or catchers, but they're fielders. Not only do they catch batted balls, they also make pickoff throws. They differ wildly in their ability to execute these skills.

(*) Whatever that means. Left fielders aren't fielders "just like" shortstops or catchers, either.

And the pro-DH side basically boils down to "I don't like watching bad hitters try to do something useful."

Not only do they "field," they also "bat"! But that doesn't make them fielders or hitters.

Plus any time Dan Uggla bats.

Moreover, no team in a high-leverage situation is going to let their pitcher hit.

(*) And of course, the only reason you're arguing pitchers aren't fielders is because you need to for your DH argument.

Not merely bad hitters. Didi Gregorious is a bad hitter. Late career Omar Vizquel was a bad hitter. Pitchers are historically awful hitters. Only the very best of them rise to the level of merely bad.

But isn't this a point against the argument that pro-DH people often make, that when a pitcher comes up, NL managers are faced with a strategic dilemma, and thats one thing that makes NL ball interesting? If it's such a foregone conclusion that a pitcher won't hit in a high-leverage situation, then the decision isn't strategic, but obvious.

If the DH were instituted in the NL tomorrow, there would be no discernible impact on attendance or ratings. None.


If the DH were eliminated tomorrow, there would be no discernible impact on attendance or ratings.

Wait, how can he pitch if he can't throw to first base? :)

But I see what you mean. It's probably more like if he can't cover first base.

For all of the talk about balance and symmetry, why isn't anyone arguing that players should be asked to do nearly everything?

My basic reason for disliking pitchers hitting is that you're not watching a MLB quality PA. That point cannot be disputed.

Ya know, this whole discussion already took place years ago. One of the nice things about getting older is you remember things like that. A lot of AL "purists" were making the same points before the AL implemented the DH. Yet, baseball attendance did not drop in AL cities after the DH rule was implemented. So, there is data to support my assertion.

Because it's also true that just as Jon Lester can hit as poorly as Jon Lester hits and they still let him pitch, Gary Sheffield and Adam Dunn and Derek Jeter could field just as poorly as they were and they still didn't get replaced.

It is, by definition, a MLB quality PA.*

...

*carbonated beverage IOU

That might be interesting if anyone were arguing otherwise. The point isn't that the DH will cause major drops in attendance, but that the opposite is also true. As such, attendance is a meaningless frame to ask the question.

But, there's a wide range of situations in between that are not clear cut.

Top of the 6th inning, tied 2-2, men on 1st and 3rd with 1 out, with your ace up. PH or no?

To be fair to Jim, my point has been that there's a much greater downside potential due to removing an option than there is upside potential by creating another set of games under the same rules. So I think attendance/ratings declines are possible for NL games, far more likely than a bounce.

To be fair to Jim, my point has been that there's a much greater downside potential due to removing an option than there is upside potential by creating another set of games under the same rules. So I think attendance/ratings declines are possible for NL games, far more likely than a bounce.

The idea that more than a handful of whiney NL fans would leave the game is fanciful. It wouldn't register as the slightest bit significant

Based on zero evidence.

I'm not convinced Lester could survive as a pitcher if he literally could not throw to bases, such that among other things, every time the ball was hit to him it would be a single.

I expected this unlettered reply.

All of the other arguments are simply preference of style. Some people like classic rock. Some people like nu-metal.

No. Arguing that pitchers hitting are MLB quality PAs, as you did above, is not "style." It's simply factually incorrect and an intensely intellectually dishonest argument. Which is par for the course for your "side."

OK, so how many people don't watch any games with the DH? No interleague games at AL parks. No World Series games at AL parks.

Arguing that pitchers hitting are MLB quality PAs, as you did above, is not "style." It's simply factually incorrect and an intensely intellectually dishonest argument.