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Wednesday, October 06, 2021

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-6-2021

Wilmington [Delaware] Evening Journal, October 6, 1921:

YANKS WIN SECOND 3-0

HOYT MAKES IT TWO STRAIGHT FOR YANKEES OVER NATIONAL LEAGUERS

That’s the second consecutive 3-0 win for the Yankees, who now lead the series 2-0 without so much as allowing a run. Looks like they have this series well under control.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:20 AM | 12 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history, world series

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:21 AM (#6043927)
A good pitching staff but not a ton of offense on today's Birthday Team. Maybe Jack Dunn can find some local orphans.

C/Manager: Pop Snyder (7.5 WAR)
1B: Ed Cartwright (7.7 WAR)
2B: Eddie Burke (8.2 WAR)
3B: Jerry Grote (15.1 WAR)
SS: Alfredo Griffin (3.0 WAR)
LF: Pat Duncan (9.6 WAR)
CF: Gene Clines (4.6 WAR)
RF: Ruben Sierra (16.7 WAR)

SP: Freddy Garcia (34.2 WAR)
SP: Darren Oliver (22.2 WAR)
SP: Oil Can Boyd (17.3 WAR)
SP/Owner: Jack Dunn (6.7 WAR)
SP: Jim McGlothlin (6.3 WAR)
RP: 1970s Steve Kline (6.9 WAR)
RP: Gary Gentry (6.1 WAR)
RP: Ken Chase (5.9 WAR)

Fun names: Carlisle Littlejohn, Edgmer Escalona, Rich Hacker, Radhames Liz, Archi Cianfrocco
Not that one: Buddy Ryan
Not that one: Joe Frazier
Wince-inducing Cleveland Indian of my childhood: Rich Yett
Wince-inducing Cleveland Indian of my adulthood: Jake Bauers
   2. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:34 AM (#6043944)
There are certain members of the cognoscenti who will tell you that Jerry Grote was every bit the defensive equal of Johnny Bench, if not better. He was strong enough of a defensive catcher to make a couple of All-Star teams despite a career OPS+ of 83, but he could never break through Bench's stranglehold on the Gold Glove.
   3. salvomania Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:21 AM (#6043970)
SS: Alfredo Griffin (3.0 WAR)

It's hard to believe a guy who was a Rookie of the Year, who played almost 2,000 games over 18 years in the bigs---12 as his team's primary SS---and made an All-Star team and won a Gold Glove ended up with just 3.0 career WAR.

Especially since he was worth 3.5 WAR for the A's in 1986.

Apparently, per Stathead, his -20.5 WAA is the third-lowest all time, behind Ski Melillo (-21.4, 1926-1937) and Tommy Dowd (-21.3, 1891-1901).
   4. salvomania Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:25 AM (#6043971)
In 1980, Griffin stole 18 bases and was caught 23 times.

From 1979-1983 he stole 65 bases and was caught 70 times.

   5. JustDan Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:59 AM (#6043977)
On Alrfredo Griffin's all star game

"Making the All-Star team the hard way: Major league baseball pays the expenses for each player here and for one guest. In most cases, players bring wives or girlfriends. Damaso Garcia, the Toronto Blue Jays' second baseman, brought his shortstop, Alfredo Griffin. When the Tigers' Alan Trammell hurt his arm and could not play tonight, Manager Joe Altobelli named Griffin to the team, partly because he's a fine player, but mostly because he was here."
   6. The Mighty Quintana Posted: October 06, 2021 at 12:17 PM (#6043987)
Ruben Sierra went to 4 All-Star games, so about the same ratio as Griffin's AS-to-WAR.
   7. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: October 06, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6044006)
Back in the day Bill James was totally in love with Ruben Sierra. I'm at work so don't have the abstracts handy, but he went on and about how Sierra reminded him of, IIRC, Hank Aaron. He had nice things to say about Bonds too, but it was clear who he thought the real star was going to be. Which is sort of odd, looking at their stats, because Bonds was clearly the better player.
   8. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 02:10 PM (#6044012)
Back in the day Bill James was totally in love with Ruben Sierra. I'm at work so don't have the abstracts handy, but he went on and about how Sierra reminded him of, IIRC, Hank Aaron. He had nice things to say about Bonds too, but it was clear who he thought the real star was going to be. Which is sort of odd, looking at their stats, because Bonds was clearly the better player.

yes, in the 1987 abstract he confidently predicted that among the 86 rookie crop (Canseco, Joyner, Bonds) that Sierra would have the best career. He based it almost entirely on the fact that he was 20 while the others were older (although Canseco & Joyner were 21)
   9. Ron J Posted: October 06, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6044023)
#7 Sierra was Roberto Clemente I think.
   10. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2021 at 02:59 PM (#6044031)
As a rookie in 1986 Bonds hit .223/.330/.416, while Sierra hit .264/.302/.476, in the same playing time, 113 games for each. Bonds had a huge edge in walks and basestealing, but Sierra had the edge in everything else, including striking out a lot less often. (Despite playing in only 113 games, that rookie season remained Bonds' career high in Ks.) Sierra was also more than a year younger than Bonds.

I don't think it was unreasonable to expect Sierra to be better.

   11. Ron J Posted: October 06, 2021 at 03:49 PM (#6044037)
#10 I've mentioned it before, but Jim Rooker's scouting report on Barry Bonds (after his rookie season) is remarkable.


"He won't swing at bad pitches -- his strikeouts are because he just misses good ones"

"His swing is still a bit too long and looping" (that changed of course -- RNJ)

"[...] pitchers found that he couldn't cover the inside corner. Once he learns this, he should develop into more of a pull hitter who will power 30-40 home runs a year"

In other words he had a specific exploitable weakness that was holding him back and worked to solve it. Wouldn't be too long before pitchers just didn't want anything to do with pitching him on the inside part of the plate. They did work him inside but mostly to get him off the plate.

And prime Bonds (even before he bulked up) had a remarkably compact and efficient swing.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:30 PM (#6044119)
Gene Clines is another guy I'm surprised his WAR is that low. I suppose he made a big enough impression on me in 71-72 that, even though he was only ever gonna be a part-timer (and maybe that was even obvious to 10-year old me), I just assumed he was a deadly bench player his entire career. I recall being happy when he came to the Cubs expecting at least a good RH bench bat. And in 71-72 he have 4.1 WAR, 2.1 WAA in about a full season's PA combined. But after that just 0.4 WAR in about 1900 PA. African-American lefty-masher was something of a Pirates tradition. Clines was succeeded by Bill Robinson who was succeeded by Lee Lacy who was succeeded (after a gap) by Lloyd McClendon. Lacy was probably the best of the bunch.

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