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Wednesday, November 10, 2021

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-10-2021

Wilmington [Delaware] Evening Journal, November 10, 1921:

Babe Pinelli, who had a chance with Detroit and was sent back to the Coast League for further seasoning, is said to be ready for another crack at the big show. Pinelli made one ecord as a major leaguer that will stand for a long time. In one season he worked the hidden ball trick four times, pulling it at the expense of such wide-awake fellows as Sam Rice, John McInness and others.

Perhaps unsurprisingly for a guy with that kind of baseball brain and attention to detail, Pinelli became an umpire. He was the guy behind the plate for Don Larsen’s perfect game.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 10, 2021 at 07:36 AM | 66 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 10, 2021 at 07:38 AM (#6052211)
A nice Birthday Team today. If a basketball game breaks out, Gene Conley is a nice weapon to have. If a drag race breaks out, don't tell Jack Clark - his attempt to break into racing didn't go particularly well.

C: Birdie Tebbetts (3.9 WAR)
1B: Norm Cash (52.0 WAR)
2B: Keith Lockhart (6.0 WAR)
3B: Larry Parrish (15.6 WAR)
SS/Manager: Jimmy Dykes (34.7 WAR)
LF: Billy Lush (8.7 WAR)
CF: Shawn Green (34.7 WAR)
RF: Jack Clark (53.1 WAR)

SP: Jim Whitney (56.0 WAR)
SP: Kenny Rogers (50.5 WAR)
SP: Gene Conley (16.9 WAR)
SP: Willie McGill (11.7 WAR)
SP: Cy Morgan (8.8 WAR)
RP: Bob Stanley (23.9 WAR)

-5.7 career WAR: Andres Thomas (-5.7 WAR)
Fun names: Butch Huskey, Slicker Parks, Chick King, Brian Dinkelman, Hiawatha Shelby
   2. Ron J Posted: November 10, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6052225)
Andres Thomas might have had the strangest career I've seen.

Nobody actually thought he was a top tier defender. Nobody thought he actually could hit (though apparently he lasted because his swing looked better than the results it produced). And there were always other options.

Doug Flynn and Hal Lanier were legitimately good defensive players. Not Thomas
   3. base ball chick Posted: November 10, 2021 at 12:05 PM (#6052250)
andres thomas

i vaguely remember the name so i looked him up. with the braves. i DID used to watch every single braves game i could on tbs

the late 80s braves were teh sukc. they didn't have anyone better i would guess and he got dumped as soon as they did
   4. The Mighty Quintana Posted: November 10, 2021 at 12:23 PM (#6052258)
And if this team needs a little excitement, they could hire Omar Minaya as their GM. Nonstop hijinks...
   5. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 10, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6052262)
Babe Pinelli, who had a chance with Detroit and was sent back to the Coast League for further seasoning, is said to be ready for another crack at the big show. Pinelli made one ecord as a major leaguer that will stand for a long time. In one season he worked the hidden ball trick four times, pulling it at the expense of such wide-awake fellows as Sam Rice, John McInness and others.


That was 1920. The two mentioned came within four days, Stuffy McInnis of the Boston Red Sox on June 19 and Sam Rice of the Washington Senators on June 22.
   6. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 01:45 PM (#6052294)
Trivia!

Name the player who is 10th in career bWAR for each franchise. Note, this counts only WAR earned with that franchise. To give you an idea of the kind of guys we're talking about, the average is 37. But there's quite a range, at the top, for the Braves, is a guy with 61 WAR. At the bottom is a guy who earned 13.5 WAR for the Rays. It's the entire franchise that counts, so the Twins get credit for the old Senators, etc. Eight of these players are in the hall of fame. One of them is still an active player.

ATL
NYY
SF
DET
BOS
CHC
LAD
CHW
OAK
PHI
PIT
CLE
CIN
MIN
STL
BAL
LAA
HOU
TEX
WAS
NYM
KC
TOR
SEA
MIL
SD
COL
ARI
MIA
TB
   7. JustDan Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:11 PM (#6052304)
Nationals - Bryce Harper lol
   8. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6052306)
Do pitchers count?
   9. JJ1986 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:28 PM (#6052308)
Mets guess - Carlos Beltran?
   10. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:35 PM (#6052309)
Yes pitchers count.

Harper is wrong, but that's the team with the active player. (Although no longer active for them.)

No on Beltran, but close. The actual guy is 3 WAR (for the NYM) behind him.
   11. JL72 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:42 PM (#6052310)
Scherzer for the Nats?

Trammell for Detroit?
   12. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:44 PM (#6052311)
For the Giants I'll guess Cepeda.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: November 10, 2021 at 02:52 PM (#6052314)
Kind of an odd trivia question. I'll throw out some guesses:
Mike Piazza
Dwight Evans
Reggie Jackson
Jimmie Foxx
Randy Johnson

edit: Holy crap I got one!
   14. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:06 PM (#6052316)
Jackson is right. The others are not. Cepeda had 32 WAR for the Giants. The Giants actually are very deep. Their guy is about 20 WAR above that. Some clues:


ATL - 61 WAR, OF
NYY - Recent hall of famer, P.
SF - Very not recent hall of famer, 1B
DET - 1B
BOS - 2B
CHC - A Primer favorite, P
LAD - P
CHW - P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - OF
PIT - OF
CLE - SS
CIN - P
MIN - OF
STL - More famous for what he did off the field than on, OF
BAL - Browns player from the 20s, OF
LAA - Great fielder, OF
HOU - first MLB game in age 17 season, P
TEX - P
WAS - 3B
NYM - recent SS
KC - DH
TOR - OF
SEA - OF
MIL - 1B
SD - OF
COL - 3B
ARI - P
MIA - Spent only 2 seasons with them. (This is how sad the Marlins are), P
TB - SS

None of these guys are obscure (for Primates), although obviously some of the guys from expansion teams weren't great players. The Reds' player, although pretty good, is probably the most obscure. I knew that all of them played for their respective teams before looking into it.

Edit: adding positions.
   15. JustDan Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6052317)
Scherzer has gotta be top 5 for the Nats. I will go with Rendon or Strasburg. Zimmerman is probably too high too.
   16. JustDan Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:10 PM (#6052318)
Andruw Jones feels like a 61 WAR player.
Orioles - Clift?
   17. JustDan Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:11 PM (#6052319)
KC - Hal McRae (just from the DH hint)
   18. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:13 PM (#6052321)
Okay, some progress:

ATL - 61 WAR, OF
NYY - Recent hall of famer, P.
SF - Very not recent hall of famer, 1B
DET - 1B
BOS - 2B
CHC - A Primer favorite, P
LAD - P
CHW - P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - OF
PIT - OF
CLE - SS
CIN - P
MIN - OF
STL - More famous for what he did off the field than on, OF
BAL - Browns player from the 20s, OF
LAA - Great fielder, OF
HOU - first MLB game in age 17 season, P
TEX - P
WAS - Anthony Rendon, 30
NYM - recent SS
KC - Hal McRae, 27.6
TOR - OF
SEA - OF
MIL - 1B
SD - OF
COL - 3B
ARI - P
MIA - Spent only 2 seasons with them. (This is how sad the Marlins are), P
TB - SS
   19. Jaack Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:14 PM (#6052322)
Marlins - Kevin Brown? He was there for two years right?
Giants - Travis Jackson
Reds - Paul Derringer perhaps?

Edit-Bill Terry for the giants.
   20. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:15 PM (#6052323)
Didn't notice the Jones guess:

ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Recent hall of famer, P.
SF - Very not recent hall of famer, 1B
DET - 1B
BOS - 2B
CHC - A Primer favorite, P
LAD - P
CHW - P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - OF
PIT - OF
CLE - SS
CIN - P
MIN - OF
STL - More famous for what he did off the field than on, OF
BAL - Browns player from the 20s, OF
LAA - Great fielder, OF
HOU - first MLB game in age 17 season, P
TEX - P
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - recent SS
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - OF
SEA - OF
MIL - 1B
SD - OF
COL - 3B
ARI - P
MIA - Spent only 2 seasons with them. (This is how sad the Marlins are), P
TB - SS
   21. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:15 PM (#6052324)
Bill Terry.
   22. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:16 PM (#6052325)
ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Recent hall of famer, P.
SF - Very not recent hall of famer, 1B
DET - 1B
BOS - 2B
CHC - A Primer favorite, P
LAD - P
CHW - P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - OF
PIT - OF
CLE - SS
CIN - P
MIN - OF
STL - More famous for what he did off the field than on, OF
BAL - Browns player from the 20s, OF
LAA - Great fielder, OF
HOU - first MLB game in age 17 season, P
TEX - P
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - recent SS
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - OF
SEA - OF
MIL - 1B
SD - OF
COL - 3B
ARI - P
MIA - Kevin Brown - 14.6
TB - SS
   23. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:21 PM (#6052326)
CLE - Ray Chapman
CIN - Eppa Rixey
MIN - Tony Oliva
   24. JustDan Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6052328)
NYY recent hall of famer -- Mussina? If that's true that is higher than I would expect for him on the Yanks.
Det - Norm Cash?
RedSox - Pedroia?
Cardinals - Curt Flood?
   25. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 03:25 PM (#6052329)
BAL: Ken Williams
Cubs: Rick Reuschel
CLE: Lou Boudreau
STL: Curt Flood
   26. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:03 PM (#6052334)
Sorry, had an impromptu meeting to attend.

ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Recent hall of famer, P.
SF - Very not recent hall of famer, 1B
DET - 1B
BOS - Dustin Pedroia - 51.9
CHC - Rick Reuschel - 49.1

LAD - P
CHW - rookie year 2000, P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - not going to get into the hall, but a strong HOVG player, OF
PIT - 1900s player, OF
CLE - SS
CIN - P
MIN - OF
STL - Curt Flood - 42.3
BAL - Ken Williams - 40.7
LAA - Great fielder, OF
HOU - first MLB game in age 17 season, P
TEX - P
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - recent SS
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - OF
SEA - OF
MIL - 1B
SD - OF
COL - on original Rockie, 3B
ARI - P
MIA - Kevin Brown - 14.6
TB - SS
   27. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6052335)
Not Mussina. The other recent HOF pitcher.

Not Cash. An even greater player than him.

Not Boudreau, but the CLE guy is one of the HOFers. (Hence not Chapman.)

Rixey isn't obscure enough for the Reds.

Not Oliva. He's 11th, and 0.7 WAR behind our guy.

The other guesses were right.
   28. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6052336)
SF Roger Connor
Bal Ken Williams
MIL Fielder Jr.
SEA Buhner
   29. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:07 PM (#6052338)
NYY Mo Rivera
Cle Boudreau
Min Sam Rice
   30. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:08 PM (#6052339)
Det - Greenberg
   31. Jaack Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:09 PM (#6052340)
CLE-Joe Sewell
MIN-Bob Allison
   32. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6052341)
Pit Ginger Beaumont
Hou Jimmy Wynn
   33. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6052342)
Col Vinny Castilla
   34. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6052343)
Connor is correct! He's a very early one.
Williams already guessed.
Fielder is wrong.
Buhner is correct!
Greenberg is also correct!
And so is Joe Sewell!
But Bob Allison is not.
   35. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:12 PM (#6052344)
Yes on Castilla!
   36. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:13 PM (#6052345)
LAA Darrin Erstad
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:13 PM (#6052347)
Rivers
   38. SoSH U at work Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:13 PM (#6052348)
Already guessed
   39. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:14 PM (#6052349)
ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Mariano Rivera - 56.3
SF - Roger Connor- 53
DET - Hank Greenberg - 52.8
BOS - Dustin Pedroia - 51.9
CHC - Rick Reuschel - 49.1

LAD - pitched until age 43, P
CHW - rookie year 2000, P
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - not going to get into the hall, but a strong HOVG player, OF
PIT - Fred Clarke - 46.7
CLE - Joe Sewell - 45.9
CIN - played 1899-1906, P
MIN - one of the remaining HOFers, OF
STL - Curt Flood - 42.3
BAL - Ken Williams - 40.7

LAA - Darren Erstad - 32.6
HOU - Larry Dierker - 32

TEX - had three stints with the Rangers, P
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - recent SS
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - 1st round draft pick in 1978, OF
SEA - Jay Buhner
MIL - also played two stints with BOS, 1B
SD - led league in triples once, 0x AS (maybe the hardest one), OF
COL - Vinny Castilla - 17.5
ARI - I think of this guy as an Athletic, P
MIA - Kevin Brown - 14.6
TB - Julio Lugo - 13.5


Edited with new hints.
   40. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:15 PM (#6052350)
And Erstad is correct too.
   41. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:19 PM (#6052351)
Hou - Larry Dierker
   42. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:19 PM (#6052352)
PIT: Fred Clarke
   43. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6052354)
Dierker and Clarke are correct. I'll update the post in 39.
   44. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:24 PM (#6052356)
Cin Hooks Dauss
TB Julio Lugo
   45. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:25 PM (#6052357)
Dauss played for DET and is a bit too late. Around the right WAR though.

Lugo is correct. Good work on that one.
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:33 PM (#6052359)
LAD - Sutton
CHW - Buehrle
NYM - Reyes
Tex - Rogers
ARI - Haren
   47. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:33 PM (#6052360)
Sherry Magee.
   48. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:34 PM (#6052361)
Mil George Scott
SD Gene Richards?
   49. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:34 PM (#6052362)
San Diego: Gene Richards?
   50. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:34 PM (#6052363)
Wow, go snapper. I upgrade you to history's 41st greatest monster.
   51. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6052364)
And Scott and Richards are also correct.
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6052365)
Toronto: Lloyd Moseby
   53. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:38 PM (#6052367)
ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Mariano Rivera - 56.3
SF - Roger Connor- 53
DET - Hank Greenberg - 52.8
BOS - Dustin Pedroia - 51.9
CHC - Rick Reuschel - 49.1
LAD - Don Sutton - 48.4
CHW - Mark Buehrle - 48.7
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48

PHI - not going to get into the hall, but a strong HOVG player, OF
PIT - Fred Clarke - 46.7
CLE - Joe Sewell - 45.9

CIN - played 1899-1906, P
MIN - the remaining HOF, OF
STL - Curt Flood - 42.3
BAL - Ken Williams - 40.7
LAA - Darren Erstad - 32.6
HOU - Larry Dierker - 32
TEX - Kenny Rogers - 31.4
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - Jose Reyes - 28.1
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - Lloyd Mosby - 26

SEA - Jay Buhner
MIL - George Scott - 22.5
SD - Gene Richards - 19
COL - Vinny Castilla - 17.5
ARI - Dan Haren - 15.1
MIA - Kevin Brown - 14.6
TB - Julio Lugo - 13.5
   54. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:39 PM (#6052368)
And Mosby is correct.

We're missing a recent HOVGer, a rather obscure turn of the century pitcher, and, surprisingly, a hall of famer.
   55. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:40 PM (#6052369)
Got to say that I was surprised that the Braves, who spent a century being a sad-sack franchise, had ten guys with more than 60 WAR for them.
   56. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:42 PM (#6052370)
Min - Sam Rice - I guessed him earlier but HOF OF are not a huge population for Min/Was

Cin - Jimmy Ring

Phi - Shane Victorino
   57. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:43 PM (#6052371)
Kirby Puckett has got to be the Hall of Famer.
   58. Mefisto Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:44 PM (#6052372)
Sam Rice.

Garry Maddux.
   59. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:45 PM (#6052373)
All wrong. MIN/WAS doesn't have many HOFers, but you're missing one.
   60. Mike Webber Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:49 PM (#6052374)
Was Goslin!
   61. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:50 PM (#6052375)
Phi - Bobby Abreu
   62. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:50 PM (#6052376)
YES and YES.

One more. I need to go home in a minute, so y'all are on the clock.
   63. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 10, 2021 at 04:56 PM (#6052379)
Noodles Hahn is the last one. Good work guys.

ATL - Andrue Jones - 61
NYY - Mariano Rivera - 56.3
SF - Roger Connor- 53
DET - Hank Greenberg - 52.8
BOS - Dustin Pedroia - 51.9
CHC - Rick Reuschel - 49.1
LAD - Don Sutton - 48.4
CHW - Mark Buehrle - 48.7
OAK - Reggie Jackson - 48
PHI - Bobby Abreu - 47.2
PIT - Fred Clarke - 46.7
CLE - Joe Sewell - 45.9
CIN - Noodles Hahn - 44.5
MIN - Goose Goslin - 43.7
STL - Curt Flood - 42.3
BAL - Ken Williams - 40.7
LAA - Darren Erstad - 32.6
HOU - Larry Dierker - 32
TEX - Kenny Rogers - 31.4
WAS - Anthony Rendon - 30
NYM - Jose Reyes - 28.1
KC - Hal McRae - 27.6
TOR - Lloyd Mosby - 26
SEA - Jay Buhner
MIL - George Scott - 22.5
SD - Gene Richards - 19
COL - Vinny Castilla - 17.5
ARI - Dan Haren - 15.1
MIA - Kevin Brown - 14.6
TB - Julio Lugo - 13.5
   64. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: November 10, 2021 at 06:16 PM (#6052392)
Noodles Hahn is the last one. Good work guys.

I got home too late - I totally would have guessed Hahn. (Been working through this period in my pitcher rankings lately, Hahn does pretty well.)
   65. AndrewJ Posted: November 10, 2021 at 08:47 PM (#6052409)
Today's Birthday Team is one of the strongest in a while, and probably the strongest Team of the year without a Hall of Famer or obvious HOF candidate. And a good mixture of players with a memorable season (Cash), a memorable game (Green, Rogers) and a memorable postseason batter/pitcher confrontation (Clark, Stanley). Even a player with a memorable aborted postgame road trip to the Jerusalem (Conley), for good measure.

Two family connections:

-- Jimmy Dykes lived down the street from my grandfather in suburban Philadelphia in the 1960s-1970s. Jimmy's granddaughter was close friends with my aunt.

-- Billy Lush coached my great-uncle on the Annapolis baseball team in the early 1920s.
   66. sanny manguillen Posted: November 12, 2021 at 02:04 PM (#6052696)
I'm interested in examining this passage without regard to its source, to see if there's some little kernel of accuracy in it:

And Satchel Paige, on his 47th birthday, pitched a win against Chicago....And all the press went in and said, “Satch, it’s amazing — 47 years old. No one’s ever, ever pitched a win at age 47.


A quick run through BB-Ref seems to indicate that Paige didn't pitch on his 47th birthday, or his 46th or 45th. Around his 47th birthday, he mostly pitched in losses. He was credited with wins about a month before and a month after his 47th. Jack Quinn didn't pitch on his 47th, either, but won ten games after his 47th birthday in 1930.

I noticed that Paige was signed on his birthday in 1948. Is that what this story grows from - that Paige once had a milestone sort of day on his birthday?

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