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Tuesday, November 19, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-19-2019

Memphis News Scimitar, November 19, 1919:

New York probably will have a new American league ball park in 1920, according to information obtained today from a trustworthy source. Literally speaking, Col. Jake Ruppert and Col. T.L. Huston, owners of the Yankees, have been kicked out of the Polo grounds and are now forced to build a ball park of their own if they want to operate next season. They have been requested to vacate and were refused a new lease to the Polo grounds by Charles A. Stoneham, president of the Giants.

The news has not been given out in Gotham that the Yankees were asked to find a new home, but it has been reported there that Ruppert and Huston are planning to start work on a new plant as soon as possible, and that they have secured the option on a plot of land at Amsterdam avenue and 138th street.

That’s not too far from where Yankee Stadium actually wound up, but it’s on the other side of the Harlem River.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 10:30 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 10:32 AM (#5902270)
A pretty good collection of position players on today's Birthday Team. It's just unfortunate they can't trade some of that catching depth for a starting pitcher.

C: Roy Campanella (37.0 WAR)
1B: Ryan Howard (15.0 WAR)
2B: Gary DiSarcina (11.2 WAR)
3B: Stu Martin (5.6 WAR)
SS: Everett Scott (16.2 WAR)
LF: Joey Gallo (8.1 WAR)
CF: Bobby Tolan (10.1 WAR)
RF: Michael Saunders (5.6 WAR)

SP: Roosevelt Davis (Negro Leagues pitcher)
SP: Justin Duchscherer (9.9 WAR)
SP: Denny Driscoll (3.4 WAR)
SP: Jonathan Sanchez (2.3 WAR)
SP: Al Pratt (1.5 WAR)
RP: Clay Condrey (1.6 WAR)

Manager: The other Joe Morgan
Backup catcher: Bob Boone (27.4 WAR)
Umpire: Mike Winters
   2. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:00 AM (#5902285)
Bobby Tolan looked like a Hall of Famer at one point - in 1969-70, he hit .300 both years with line-drive power (more than 50 extra-base hits both years) and speed (led the league with 57 steals in 1970) while playing center field for the Reds, who emerged as the Big Red Machine in 1970. He hit .310/.365/.475 over the two seasons, with 5.4 WAR each year, and was only 24.

Then in the off-season, he tore his Achilles playing basketball and was never the same player.
   3. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5902286)
I once had Driscoll in a historical replay league. Threw strikes, “limited power”, won an ERA title.
   4. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:03 AM (#5902288)
Duchscherer also had a better than you’d think, of short, career. Two time all star, career ERA+ of 139.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:22 AM (#5902298)
Duchscherer also had a better than you’d think, of short, career. Two time all star, career ERA+ of 139.

His last full season was something. Converted to a SP and went 141.2 IP, with a 2.54 ERA, 162 ERA+.

Presumably he got hurt, b/c he missed all of 2009, and only pitched 28 more innings in his career.
   6. base ball chick Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5902307)
man ryan howard sure got a shtt ton of $$$ for 15 WAR
   7. salvomania Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5902315)
Bobby Tolan looked like a Hall of Famer at one point

Stolen from the Cardinals---along with a 25-yr-old Wayne Granger, who, in his three years with the Reds, would set the single-season saves record and throw over 300 innings of above-average relief---for the corpse of Vada Pinson, who was just 30 but well beyond his days as a star.

Just another bad trade by the Cardinals of that era, dooming them to mediocrity until the '80s.
   8. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5902332)
Just another bad trade by the Cardinals of that era, dooming them to mediocrity until the '80s.


I'm wondering: if the Flood/Allen trade had gone through as planned, might that have been a worse deal for STL than what ended up happening???

I mean yeah, we have no idea what Flood would have given the Phils into the '70 and we know what the great Dick Allen brought to the table, but the Cards also gave up McCarver, who played up until 1980 and a useful starter in Joe Hoerner. And they also got back Cookie Rojas, but almost immediately sent him to KC, where he cemented their infield for the better part of a decade and just missed out on the Royals' annual post-season parties.

Interesting to think Flood might have inadvertently done the Cards a favor by refusing to go.
   9. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5902339)
Presumably he got hurt, b/c he missed all of 2009, and only pitched 28 more innings in his career.
Duchscherer had a wonky shoulder, back issues, and severe depression. None of those is particularly great, but all three is an awful lot to overcome in order to pitch in the majors.

I'd have lost on Denny Driscoll if we had been playing "member of a 1970s rock band or 19th century ballplayer?".

   10. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5902341)
Anagrams of note:
Ryan Howard -> Horny Award
Michael Saunders -> Headless Cranium
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5902343)
and a useful starter in Joe Hoerner.

Reliever.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: November 19, 2019 at 02:01 PM (#5902388)
Most importantly, Bobby Tolan had the greatest stance of all time.** If you are anything close to my age, you either mimiced Tolan or Stargell and they are still ####### cool.

** Most contemporary comp was Counsell.

   13. salvomania Posted: November 19, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5902403)
Tolan or Stargell

Flappin' Joe Morgan was very popular as well
   14. salvomania Posted: November 19, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5902405)
   15. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5902408)
and a useful starter in Joe Hoerner.

Reliever.


Thank you.
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 03:30 PM (#5902425)
Thank you.

I only know because my DMB historical league is in 1968, and he's my closer :-)

Oddly, for that era, he didn't have a single GS in 493 Gs.
   17. Perry Posted: November 19, 2019 at 03:51 PM (#5902427)
Then in the off-season, he tore his Achilles playing basketball and was never the same player.


Except that in his first year back he was, if not the same player, still pretty darn good. After missing all of 1971 due to the injury, in 1972 he came back to a 110 OPS+ (down from 124 and 126 in the two pre-injury years), with 42 steals in 57 attempts, still played CF full time (pushing Geronimo to RF) and posted 4.9 WAR, including a career-best dWAR, and got MVP votes. It was the NEXT year that he cratered, slashing 206/251/308, 57 OPS+ and -2.0 WAR. He played 5 more seasons but never had a positive WAR again. But considering how good he was the first year back, I'm pretty sure other issues might have been involved.
   18. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 04:52 PM (#5902457)
I was about to post something similar to #17. He had a good year in 1972 but a disastrous (on defense) World Series against the A's. His Wiki page says:
The poor 1972 finish spilled over into the next year for Tolan, as 1973 was a disastrous year for him. Tolan's batting average plummeted to .206, he became a malcontent and had several squabbles with Reds management, who were still unhappy with his 1971 basketball injury. Tolan also went AWOL for two days in August and broke team rules by growing a beard. On September 27, the team suspended Tolan for the remainder of the season.

His playing Bball in the off-season was specifically proscribed by his contract and the Reds apparently would not let that die
   19. Perry Posted: November 19, 2019 at 05:27 PM (#5902462)
His playing Bball in the off-season was specifically proscribed by his contract and the Reds apparently would not let that die


And yet much of the team played off-season basketball; in fact Tolan got injured playing with a team that included Pete Rose, Johnny Bench and other Reds, that had played charity games all over the Cincinnati area all winter for years. That team only ended with Tolan's injury. So I don't think his playing was proscribed at the time.
   20. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 19, 2019 at 08:33 PM (#5902491)
The 1970s Reds: long hair and mustaches forbidden, basketball mandatory
   21. stevegamer Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:44 PM (#5902515)
I have to agree on Tolan's stance. It was a go-to for wiffleball for me, and others in Philly, and the the Phillies actually got him.

I was also partial to Jose Cruz, who was like Tolan with a bat twirl.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:47 PM (#5902516)
And yet much of the team played off-season basketball; in fact Tolan got injured playing with a team that included Pete Rose, Johnny Bench and other Reds,
One can only imagine how obnoxious Rose was on a basketball court.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: November 20, 2019 at 04:10 AM (#5902525)
Good call on Morgan's flapping.
   24. PreservedFish Posted: November 20, 2019 at 08:27 AM (#5902532)
One can only imagine how obnoxious Rose was on a basketball court.

I had the same thought. Nothing worse than the one guy that hustles too much during a pickup game.
   25. caspian88 Posted: November 20, 2019 at 09:59 AM (#5902566)
Can you blame him? He had money riding on those games.

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