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Friday, November 01, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-1-2019

Chicago Eagle, November 1, 1919

Jim Thorpe of the Braves who is playing professional football this fall is not the only big league star who could devote his time quite profitably to the gridiron game.
...
There are several major league ball players who have starred on the gridiron. Thorpe’s prowess as a football player is well known and he needs little introduction. While playing with the Carlisle Indian school he starred in every game.
...
Dave Robertson, the Cub outfielder; Heathcote of the St. Louis Nationals and George Halas, the young outfielder who was with the Yankees early in the season, are all football players of exceptional ability.

There have been seven MLB players who went on to be elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame: Thorpe, Halas, Red Badgro, Paddy Driscoll, Ernie Nevers, Ace Parker, and Deion Sanders.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 09:39 AM | 57 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, football, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5897682)
A bunch of stolen base threats on today's Birthday Team, not to mention a few star pitchers.

C: Stephen Vogt (8.1 WAR)
1B: Gary Redus (16.3 WAR)
2B/Manager: Bid McPhee (52.5 WAR)
3B: Vic Power (15.5 WAR)
SS: Johnny Burnett (3.5 WAR)
LF: Miguel Dilone (2.5 WAR)
CF: Coco Crisp (28.5 WAR)
RF: Pat Mullin (9.8 WAR)

SP: Larry French (45.2 WAR)
SP: Fernando Valenzuela (41.4 WAR)
SP: Masahiro Tanaka (17.2 WAR)
SP: Russ Kemmerer (4.7 WAR)
SP: Bob Wells (3.7 WAR)
RP: Anthony Bass (0.6 WAR)

Writer: Grantland Rice
Fun names: Ham Hyatt, Cleatus Davidson, Snapper Kennedy, Pete Rambo
   2. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 10:43 AM (#5897704)
LF: Miguel Dilone (2.5 WAR)

had one the all-time fluke years in 1980. Slashed 341/375/432 good for an OPS+ of 120 (had never been higher than 72 before, and never was over 100 again) The year was good for 3.0 WAR and he ended his career with lifetime 2.5 WAR
   3. Itchy Row Posted: November 01, 2019 at 10:48 AM (#5897709)
59-years-old seems both too old and too young for Fernando.
   4. The Honorable Ardo Posted: November 01, 2019 at 10:54 AM (#5897714)
So six players from the first two decades of the NFL... and Deion Sanders. That's just nuts. Had there been social media in the early-mid '90s, he would've broke the Internet.
   5. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 01, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5897728)
Greasy Neale, who started in the Reds' 1919 outfield, is in the NFL Hall of Fame ... as a coach.
   6. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5897734)
had one the all-time fluke years in 1980.

He also stole 61 bases, ninth-most ever for a player with zero home runs.

Any ideas about the other 8? All post-1960 except for one guy, an all-time great. Four others are pretty well known as light-hitting base stealers with reasonably lengthy careers, and the last three were regulars for maybe only a few years, names you might recognize but not be able to think of in this context, except for that one of the guys is probably better known for his tragic descent.

EDIT: All other seasons 1980– except the all-time great and one other guy.
   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 01, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5897738)
Juan Pierre has to be one.
   8. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5897750)
Yes, Juan Pierre is one of the pretty-well-known light-hitting base stealers.

He stole 64 bases without a homer in 2007, with the Dodgers. He had two other 60+ SB seasons, in each case with 1 home run.
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5897752)
Did Rickey steal 60+ without a homer as a rookie or 2nd-year player in the 1970's?

edit: no he did not
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:16 PM (#5897754)
Gary Pettis? Ron LeFlore? Eric Young? Brett Butler? Otis Nixon?
   11. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5897755)
Dave Collins stole 79 once, was it a zero homer season?
   12. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5897756)
Ron LeFlore made me think of Rodney Scott, so I'll guess him.
   13. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5897757)
Also Vince Coleman fits the profile
   14. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5897759)
Gary Pettis? Ron LeFlore? Eric Young? Brett Butler? Otis Nixon?

YES on Otis Nixon, no on the others.
   15. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5897760)
Luis Castillo?
Dee Gordon?
Omar Moreno?
   16. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:26 PM (#5897761)
Ron LeFlore made me think of Rodney Scott, so I'll guess him.

YES on Rodney Scott, who's the guy I thought would be the hardest to get.

Scott stole 63 bases a the starting 2b for the 1980 Expos; he was also their 2B in the 1981 strike season, but only played 24 more MLB games after that.
   17. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:26 PM (#5897762)
Greasy Neale, who started in the Reds' 1919 outfield, is in the NFL Hall of Fame ... as a coach.
It's tough to know for sure without stats to back up the claims, but Neale was allegedly an excellent end on the pre-NFL Canton Bulldogs. And the Massillon Tigers, but I don't like Massillon so I'll pretend that didn't happen - particularly because the Massillon-McKinley game is tomorrow. Anyway, from what I've read, it's possible he could have gotten in as a player if he'd been younger.

Also, his name sounds like the name of a minor character in Community.
   18. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5897764)
Also Vince Coleman fits the profile

Luis Castillo?


YES on Coleman, NO on Castillo.

 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 -- ----
 72 1991 Nixon
 -- ----
 -- ----
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 -- ----
 61 1980 Dilone
   19. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5897765)
Guy on the Rockies a few years ago? I.... had to look up his name. Willy Taveras. He had a season with 68 steals and ONE home run.
   20. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5897766)
I think Dilone's fluke season has kind of been lost to history because that was the Joe Charboneau year. If Dilone had become a folk hero, the 1980 Indians would have been in danger of having more folk heroes in the outfield than fans inside the stadium.
   21. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5897768)
Luis Castillo?
Dee Gordon?
Omar Moreno?

No on these guys.

   22. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5897769)
 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 -- ----
 72 1991 Nixon
 -- ----
 -- ----
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 -- ----
 61 1980 Dilone

Of the four guys left, we have two pre-1980 players, one an all-time great, the other, very well known.

Then we have two gnats with shorter careers, one of whom may be better known for other reasons.
   23. PreservedFish Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:36 PM (#5897771)
The fast Brian Hunter? Tony Womack? Tom Goodwin?
   24. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5897773)
One of the gnats is a player whose name I've confused with about five other guys, one of whom has been guessed in this thread.
   25. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5897774)
The fast Brian Hunter? Tony Womack? Tom Goodwin?

Nope on all these guys.
   26. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5897775)
Post-1960 but pre-1980? Maury Wills?
   27. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5897776)
Dave Collins stole 79 once, was it a zero homer season?

Collins hit 3 homers that year, and also had a 60-steal, 2-homer season.
   28. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5897777)
If you collected baseball cards in 1981, this gem would come to mind when you are thinking about Ron LeFlore and low power base stealers.
   29. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5897778)
Rudy Law?
   30. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5897779)
Of the four guys left, we have two pre-1980 players, one an all-time great, the other, very well known.


Sliding Billy Hamilton? The good one.
   31. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5897781)

Maury Wills?

YES! Wills has one of the two pre-1980 seasons on the list.

He hit 6 homers in his 104-steal season in 1962, but did also have two 50+ SB seasons with zero homers in addition to the one listed below.

 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 94 1965 Wills
 72 1991 Nixon
 -- ----
 -- ----
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 -- ----
 61 1980 Dilone
   32. JJ1986 Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5897783)
Scotty Pods stole 59 bases with no homers one year.
   33. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5897784)
Bid McPhee?
   34. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5897785)
I checked Ty Cobb, he never had a zero homer season, but he had 4 different 1-homer seasons.
   35. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:46 PM (#5897790)
Rudy Law?

Sliding Billy Hamilton?

No on both of these.

One all-time great left, and two gnats.

Of one of the gnats, I used to confuse him with Gerald Perry, Eric Young, Brian Hunter, and Brian Hunter, all of whom played for either the Braves or Astros, or both.
   36. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5897791)
Oh, Gerald Young?
   37. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5897792)
Bid McPhee?

Sliding Billy Hamilton? The good one.

OOPS! I forgot to qualify my list with the fact that it's only for post-1900 seasons.

Still, neither of these two ever had a 60+ SB, zero HR season.
   38. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5897793)
If not Gerald Young, maybe Eric Yelding?
   39. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5897794)
Oh, Gerald Young?

Yes, and sorry about the obvious hint. I was starting to think he was too obscure to recall, as he sort of blended in with a bunch of other players.

 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 94 1965 Wills
 72 1991 Nixon
 -- ----
 65 1988 Young
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 -- ----
 61 1980 Dilone
   40. mathesond Posted: November 01, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5897795)
Eddie Collins?
   41. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5897800)
Eddie Collins?

Collins is the all-time great. He also had seasons of 53 and 40 stolen bases with zero home runs.

 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 94 1965 Wills
 72 1991 Nixon
 -- ----
 65 1988 Young
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 63 1912 Collins
 61 1980 Dilone

The final guy is, tragically, the only former MLB player (that I know of) to have done a certain thing.
   42. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5897803)
Tragically? Ray Chapman
   43. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:11 PM (#5897804)
From the Wikipedia bio of this player:

The [team name redacted] once gave an IQ test, and [redacted] scored higher than everyone except for [redacted]. His agent said that [redacted's] intelligence had caused problems in his relationships with teammates. He liked to read books and newspapers, and his teammates were turned off by these displays of his intellect.
   44. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5897805)
Tragically? Ray Chapman

No, we're looking for a season from the 1980s or later.
   45. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5897806)
Another hint:
The Orioles once gave an IQ test, and [redacted] scored higher than everyone except for Earl Weaver.
   46. The Mighty Quintana Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5897811)
Luis Polonia? (Not really tragic, more like reprehensible, and probably not the only guy)
   47. Sweatpants Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:25 PM (#5897812)
Alan Wiggins?
   48. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5897816)
Luis Polonia?

Close, 51 SB with zero homers.
   49. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5897818)
Alan Wiggins?

Yes; his drug use accelerated the end of his MLB career, and his later intravenous drug use led to AIDS, from which he died, in 1991. To be best of my knowledge, he is the only former major leaguer to have died of AIDS.

Players with 60+ SB, zero home runs (1900-):
 SB Year Player
107 1986 Coleman
 94 1965 Wills
 72 1991 Nixon
 66 1983 Wiggins
 65 1988 Young
 64 2007 Pierre
 63 1980 Scott
 63 1912 Collins
 61 1980 Dilone
   50. Sweatpants Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5897822)
Glenn Burke died from AIDS-related complications as well.
   51. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5897823)
In 1983 I decided to make sure I accumulated a bunch of Alan Wiggins rookie cards, the heck with that other Padre outfielder. Wiggins speed would make him age well!
   52. salvomania Posted: November 01, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5897831)
Glenn Burke died from AIDS-related complications as well.

That's right, I had forgotten about Burke. Sorry, Glenn!
   53. PreservedFish Posted: November 01, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5897835)
Who had the highest WAR among them?
   54. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 02:14 PM (#5897838)
Who had the highest WAR among them?

Collins had 8.8 WAR so I'm assuming it's him
   55. Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5897839)
Also, in 1965, Maury Wills had 31 CS per baseball Ref
   56. Walt Davis Posted: November 01, 2019 at 05:15 PM (#5897914)
Eddie Collins is an all-time great. I assume Wills had the 2nd-best career WAR. After that, probably Pierre then Coleman. For seasonal WAR, no idea but would guess Wills comes second there assuming it was one of his SS seasons. Or Pierre/Dilone.
   57. Walt Davis Posted: November 01, 2019 at 05:28 PM (#5897923)
Now looking it up ... season then career ... by seasonal WAR ... I was right about Wills being 2nd in seasonal and career WAR but it was actually one of Pierre's less valuable seasons ... and Wiggins added a 360 OBP along with +13 defense. Pierre is 3rd in career WAR, barely edging Nixon.

Collins 8.8 124
Wills 5.2 40
Wiggins 4.1 7
Dilone 3.0 2.5
Nixon 2.2 17
Young 1.7 6
Coleman 1.3 12.5
Scott 1.0 4
Pierre 0.9 17

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